Shortest date, and ketchup
Here’s a story about my shortest date, and ketchup.
I was dating in New York City, and matched with someone named Kelly. We agreed to meet, so I called her to decide where. She had a miserable voice, creaky and weary, but I tried not to judge.
I suggested we meet at a bar at 35th Street and 8th Avenue. Although she’s from New York, she didn’t know where that is.
I said, “You really don’t know where 35th Street and 8th Avenue is?”
She said, “No.”
I said, “Well, just ask anyone. Everyone else knows.”
OK, now I’m judging. Miserable voice. Doesn’t know the basic layout of the city she lives in. Two red flags.
I started to add her to my phone, so I said, “I have two friends named Kelly. Can you tell me your last name?”
She said, in her weary voice, “I’m not going to tell you my last name. You could be a serial killer.”
What the …? OK. Fine. Three red flags.
So a couple days later we met at the bar at 35th Street and 8th Avenue. She looked good. We said hello. I asked if she’d like a beer. She said yes. I brought two beers back to the table.
On the table is a bottle of ketchup. Huh. “Ketchup.” I never really noticed that word before. Where is it from? It doesn’t look Latin, French, or Germanic.
So the first thing I say is, “Where do you think the word ketchup is from?”
She looked at me with disgust, and said, just sneering the whole time, “What? What kind of question is that? Who cares? Why would anyone care about that?”
I looked at her and thought for a second. Miserable voice. Doesn’t know her city. Assumes I’m a murderer. And now doesn’t have the slightest bit of curiosity about anything — no willingness to engage in the tiniest bit of wonder.
I decided I didn’t want to know her. I got up and said, “I’m gonna go now.”
She said, “But you haven’t even had a sip of your beer!”
I said, “Take care,” and left. Shortest date ever.
Years later, I’m living in Singapore, which is next to Indonesia, so I’m reading a book about Indonesian history. It says there is only one word in English that comes from the Indonesian language. Ketchup.
I was amazed. I laughed. Question answered.
My instinct was right to walk out on that date. Little interesting things are all around us. But the uncurious will never know.
A good story.
"It's not a silly question if you can't answer it."
That's a lot of red flags to catch before the date even happened. I Like the story!
Great story!! So simple and fun. You are brave to have left. I would’ve stayed to finish the beer while squirming in my seat the whole time.
I'm actually interested in learning more about this person, how did they come to be like that ? Born dim? Traumatic upbringing? How can they NOT wonder?
But.. I'd have stayed for that date, not for their great company, but to find out how they got like that xD
OMG! I always thought it was the opposite. So kecap is a native Indonesian word!
Love that story. I guess I won't ever forget where the word "Ketchup" comes from 🙂
Love it! Well done on walking out on her, too. I wouldn't have had the courage to do so I think, fearing to offend her. But it was the right call. Reminds me of how hard-wired the fear of social exclusion (= certain death in the old days) is into our brains although it’s not that important anymore in these modern times. Well done.
If you ever see her again, will you try to ketch-up?
Amen
Curiosity rewards us in many ways!
Where does the word "beer" come from?
That *is* a good story. I'm going to file away that etymology for "ketchup".
Yesterday I learned that we went through a brief period in English from around 1500 to around 1700 where we briefly reversed the order of compound words -- "swashbuckler" and "lickspittle" and "turncoat". The "usual" order is "firefighter" and "naysayer". And almost all those words have remained, and they're all vaguely seedy. Nice.
But I've known plenty of women that have to be careful for a variety of reasons. Not telling a guy you just met your last name seems sensible in those circumstances.
LOLL
What app?
In Indonesia, ketchup is soy sauce. What we call ketchup in the west, is simply called tomato sauce.
Absolutely brilliant story and behaviour!
Unfortunately the statement about etymology is not true. The etymology of “ketchup” is disputed, with Malay/Indonesian as just one possible origin, but more importantly there are other words from Malay/Indonesian in English: tempeh, agar-agar, gong, even the name Japan.
Speaking of ketchup, I'm curious about mass hysteria, whether it's today's cancel culture, yesterday's political correctness, or the witch hunts for communists concealed in the government during my birth decade, the 1950's. In each case the marker for hysteria was that if you questioned the hysteria, then the woke reply was, "You must be one yourself!"
In the 1950's movie "The Manchurian candidate," a fellow is pounding the bottom of a ketchup bottle as he asks Angela Lansbury how many communists should we say is on the piece of paper (Like the paper Senator McCarthy claimed to have) Glancing at the ketchup label for "57 flavours", she says, "Fifty-seven." I'm sure the laughter must have risen right to the rafters.
(Today we wouldn't laugh much because we are not under so the same tension, although for a modern movie we would laugh loudly at a line about those terribly unkind social justice warriors)
I'm also curious about conformity.
As a boy the mouth of the ketchup jar remained so small there was even a TV commercial of a fellow in suit and tie pounding the bottom of the jar while an announcer said, "The flavour worth waiting for."
In the science fiction novel at that time by Mark Clifton called "When They Come From Space" the narrator muses on how if you change even one word on a label of a can sent to (a place overseas) then although villagers cannot read it they will refuse to buy it, and how, for buyers in America, it took so many years to enlarge the mouth of a ketchup bottle by even a sixteenth of an inch. (It's much larger now)
Ahaha Derek no-curious people live a boring Life! Great article.
Wonderful story!
I scrolled down just far enough to fill in this form.
I won't read any of the comments.
Hell is other people.
Randy's comment above irritates me: Like a guy rushing to a group therapy meeting late, not listening to learn, saying his piece, then rushing off before others can help him. (A therapist resorted to phoning the non-listener's wife to say, "He's done it again!")
Part of the reader-writer contract, for any blog,
(If only to avoid irritating us all by asking a question, or self-importantly announcing an error, that poor Derek has answered umpteen times in the thread already)
is that you will read your fellow-commenters before you comment. If you say they are hell, then how can they possibly be your fellows?
Call me a Zen Buddhist, but if you take a grown-up interest and curiosity in animals, or people, then you may like them too much to hunt them, or hurt them.
The word might have also come from China, where it was (and still) used to refer to fermented fish sauce. It was later brought over to Southeast Asia. slate.com/human-interest/2012/05/ketchups-chinese-origins-how-it-evolved-from-fish-sauce-to-todays-tomato-condiment.html
There's a whole section on it in Salt: A World History by Mark Kurlansky as well.
On a side note, while reading this, I couldn't help but feel sorry for Kelly, for being judged for withholding her name. Online dating can be scary! But there's no excuse for lacking curiosity, and being sneering towards others who are curious :)
If I feel too serious, then it's time for a children's joke!
(If you don't "get it" then see comment #8 by Peter and #13 by Soheil)
A father tomato, a mother tomato and a boy tomato are walking along.
The boy keeps lagging behind, and so the father keeps getting angry.
At last the father angrily goes back to the boy, stomps on his head, (splat!) and says, "Ketch-up!"
I think Kelly's "serial killer" comment was rude for a first date and presumably in a non-playful manner. But it is a real fear of women, as I've learned.
Respectfully, there were other ways to identify Kelly in your phone, and you could have updated it later, if you end up getting to know her.
Also, as you said, you were judging, saying everyone knew about the streets. I think that's something you could have kept to yourself... Coming out and telling someone that comes off as rude as well.
I wonder if her voice gave you a bad first impression, and the rest unfolded the way it did?
While living in Chennai, India, I learned that one of the only English words to come from Tamil is catamaran. I love that because it's a word that perfectly captures the rhythm of their language. Now I always smile when I hear it, and can't help but imagine the head wobble that goes with the native pronunciation.
Wow! That's so interesting! Thank you. — Derek
Ha! Thanks for your curiosity regarding the origin of the word ketchup. I have been fascinated with words and language(s) from early childhood. It seems you discovered what you didn’t want in a relationship. It “might” have been interesting to inquire what she was curious about, but I admire your decision to bail.
“ORIGIN OF KETCHUP
First recorded in 1705–15; from Malay kəchap “fish sauce,” perhaps from dialectal Chinese kéjāp (Guangdong) or ke-tsiap (Xiamen), akin to Chinese qié “eggplant” + chī “juice”
ORIGIN OF KETCHUP
C18: from Chinese (Amoy) kōetsiap brine of pickled fish, from kōe seafood + tsiap sauce”
- dictionary.com app
Wow, that bottle in the picture sure looks weird to me, partly because it's plastic. In my day the glass bottle was shaped like the Eiffel Tower, or like a soy sauce bottle, with the top as small as the mouth of a coke bottle.
I'm sure plastic bottles been a Godsend. Are you curious why?
Because I remember a TV commercial of a lady standing in a slippery bathtub, asked by the announcer to "tell five things" about Alberto VO5 shampoo. After each "thing" she dropped the wet bottle, saying, "Oops!" At last she picks it up and says with wide eyes and glee, "It didn't break!" The announces says, "Right. Alberto VO5 now comes in a plastic bottle." No need, for once, for the announcer to say it was, "new and improved."
Interesting story, and I learned something new!
That is a nice and quick way to figure out who is the right one to date. A human made up with details.Two different people who want to get into a new relationships need to be in harmony with each other. That is the most important points I think.
one of the best writers doing it atm
Good to know.
I've gone on a reading splurge of your recent articles.
This one made me laugh out loud.
I almost had to read it through my fingers, like watching a horror movie.
Wince-worthy and hilarious at the same time.
Bravo.
What an amazing story and link.
You have an immense propensity for pushing through and being honest and exploring your curiosity.
I would have bailed after two red flags.
Thanks for increasing my etymology game and for the entertaining story. I’m going to try to trust my instinct when meeting new people and also give me the benefit of the doubt.
"Ketchup comes from the Hokkien Chinese word, kê-tsiap, the name of a sauce derived from fermented fish."
Source: www.nationalgeographic.com/culture/article/how-was-ketchup-invented
In the Malay Archipelago (Malaysia, Indonesia, Brunei, Singapore and the parts of the Philippines), "kicap" is a word used for dark and light soy sauce. For tomato and chilly sauces, the word used in local languages is "sos" and not ketchup.
Etymology is so entertaining! I love hearing all the theories & stories - thanks to the commenters for all the alternative theories :)
Sounds like you made a good choice to get out of there! I echo the other comments - I would have probably wasted my time and sat through the drink, counting the minutes until it was socially acceptable to leave...
Just to bring a bit of empathy for her: The one time I gave my last name to a dude on Tinder before I met him, he found me on Facebook and commented on my profile pic, posted an inappropriate sex joke on my page... I'm sure he would have done more if I hadn't had all the other privacy settings. I blocked him. He found my email, started emailing me messages ("why did you block me? I deserve a chance!") Since then, I try to keep my identity private before meeting people in person. I'm not scared I'm gonna meet a serial killer, but stalkers are no joke! This is an anecdote, but it's not uncommon - ALL my female friends have had a situation with a date that got a little scary.
Other commenters have mentioned this - women have real and serious fears when meeting a rando from the interwebs. In the UK, 90% of violent crimes are committed by men, and in the US, 1 in 6 women have been a victim of rape or attempted rape. I'm not saying you should have given her a chance (she sounds super boring and rude), but it's not cool to judge her for being worried.
Love that you were decisive and left early on. I could never be with someone who's not curious or a "think-y" type.
Love it! You were smart to leave the bar and her for all the reasons you gave. My favorite people in life are those who are always curious and appreciative and aren't afraid to be so! I so love that my mom, for instance, could walk along a sidewalk and stop to admire the beauty in the smallest of flowers on what most would call a weed. I think that's what I love about little children: they take such joy in what we adults just pass over. Little kids love jumping, going down steps, making sounds, blowing bubbles, the wind, the snow. They see beauty in what we dismiss or even ignore. We should all take a walk outside and truly see all the beauty around us!
Great story. I can totally relate. I’m not from New York but I have been there many many times, and I have been on dating apps there a few times. Some of the most unhappiest, pretentious, and unfriendly people I have seen in my life. I am from 3 mega cities almost all my life. People in big cities speak as if they know it all but like crème brûlée, it’s just a facade. I moved to Asia for 5 years now and it’s much better.
She sounds insufferable. I applaud you for ditching her so fast.
Yes, I agree that you were brave to leave. I can see how a weaker character could get mired in how to make her smile and wind up in an abusive relationship. Emotionally abusive if nothing else. What a drain, to have your every thought shut down.
As for believing in fun not misery... Derek, your esteemed buddy Seth Godin, in his book Purple Cow (about being remarkable) mentioned The Ketchup Song.
It was a big hit back in the day; in Europe, not North America; controversial for alleged Satanism.
Maybe it's my boring old age, but I like the original Iberian version more than the English one.
So here it is, for you music and dance fans: www.youtube.com/watch?v=V0PisGe66mY
It was not really short considering all your thoughts during the process. It’s interesting that you have been very patient even against your instincts.
Greetings from China!
It is 3:14 am in Ecuador in the town that was a 10 minute drive from where I grew up. My mom lives here now. The town was tiny, so tiny that when you would drive by it there would be 3 places, the first one you would start smelling about a mile before you arrived, it smelled so yummy, like nothing I can compare it to, the thing is that the smell was from the half metal barrel road side barbecue where they would sell Tripas Mishqui. Tripe. It was confusing, how could guts smell so good?! The second place was the ice cream place where they had ice cream made in a paila which is a humorous copper (or bronze ?) pot over ice with fruit, sugar, and egg whites, I just googled how it was made because I wasn't sure, I thought they cooked the ingredients in the paila and that is why it was called Helado de Paila. Anyways, you can probably guess what I am going to try to make tomorrow (later today.) The third place in Cumbaya was the Chinese restaurant. It was so exciting to have a Chinese restaurant, we would gather in our Land Rover jeep named Old Rusty and eat Chinese food, then ice cream, and my dad would get a serving on a leaf of tripa mishqui which was so confusing because it tasted as good as it smelled, it was charred and chewy and it had so many spices to cover the tripeness.. my mom would say we shouldn't eat out so much, my dad would say he was going to write a book and call it "El Humo de las Tripas Mishqui" I would say I want to eat out all the time, and my sister was in her phase of not talking at all before exploding into the most adorable Spanglish ever. She was blond like my mom, and I was so jealous of her at the time. I was 10, she was 3. Cumbaya now has a squillion stores, a mall bigger than the one in Portland, a smaller mall, and no roadside tripe. It is the first time I have been back since my dad died, and I could keep writing but I am tired again. I am pretty sure I love you, not in like a romantic sense, but I would be so happy to be stuck on a long flight with you and talk about all the things. In Ecuador they used to spell Ketchup like Catsup which made me think of cat soup which doesn't make any sense.
It's said that kechup is from Chinese, Fujian Province. And after the Chinese in Fujian moved to Indonesia, they mate English Businessmen ,and the Enlish used this word as English . First it was made from fish ,then from muschroom ,at last from tomato .
What about the more important point of the story? I had to look it up ;)
Origins are Chinese, ke tsiap, a fish brine or sauce, found in Malay as kecap or soy sauce. Traders brought the word to Europe, where Britain adopted it as ketchup.
~200 years in two sentences.