What do you do for feedback on a new song you’re writing?

typically we'll finish the song and play it at a couple shows, either first or last, then ask ppl in the audience what they thought - honestly. we've got some pretty great and on point feedback from doing this, and typically the songs that are most loved at our live shows sell the most on itunes.

(1) I attempt to guauge audience feedback

(2) I solicit feedback by way of co-write meetings

(3) I just flake out, play it and simply don't seek it.

Primarily the 3rd. Foolish on my part.

Good question Derek

I usually play it for close friends. My four and half year old daughter is also the most honest person I know when it comes to that stuff. If she starts dancing right away, that's half the battle. If she stares at the speakers, I'm in trouble. I also submit stuff to Ourstage.com and see how it ranks at the end of the month.

Hope you are well.

Alexis

Though I hate email, I find it is useful for this. I like to send out emails individually to people with one song attached. I'll add in a couple lines about the song and then ask people about what they think. It is a pretty focused way to get someone to think about a song. If you send them a link to a site where you are streaming a bunch of music or send them an album, they tend not to have as much specific feedback about particular songs.

hi Derek ..

I think there is no site that provides the same great feedback that a workshop can ...

I currently use friends for this, but it is not easy because one writes a lot and people have limited time ... you know what I am talking about .

I hope there's aplace where we can all share and critique our creations

I try and play a new song for other musicians. Friends can be surprisingly critical. Musicians tend to understand the song-writing process and have a clearer grasp of what it means to write a song.

Also. Friends, bless them all, have a relationship with you and whether conscious or not, may have an agenda in the dynamics of that friendship. So the feedback can tend to be made through the filter of 'how they know you'...which sullies any attempt at objectivity.

My wife! My producer. My son.

Hey Derek.

When I'm writing, I'll be editing as I go - some songs never make it off the cutting room floor.

The songs that do get recorded in work tape form on my computer. I listen through a few times. If I feel like I want to keep listening after two or three times through, that's a good sign - then I'll try playing it out at a writers' night or two. If I still feel good about the song while playing it for a bunch of friends and fans and strangers, that's a good sign too.

If that feeling remains for more shows, it often makes the next record. It's kind of survival of the fittest, natural selection.

There are some songs that friends or fans seem to respond well to, that I don't feel good about. When that's the case, I try and give the song(s) a second chance. If I still don't get excited about 'em, they get shelved. I want fans to relate to the new stuff, but I need to feel it myself in order to play it out night after night.

Hope that helps.


-Tori

http://www.torisparks.com

http://www.myspace.com/torisparks

New album "The Scorpion in the Story" due in June 2009... stay tuned! CD + Music Video Release Extravaganza on June 4th @ The Rutledge (Nashville, TN).

That's it. The music I compose is presented in it's finished form, with no concern as to someone's liking it or not. It works for me... 19 CD's and counting.

I'd sure like to know what Paul McCartney did / does or Lenny Kravitz does for feedback.

Whatever they did, it results in hit songs.

I cowrite wither others, get feedback from the band on 'my' songs AND, my favorite, I'm in an ongoing, grass roots 'song group' with a bunch of Bay Area songwriters who meet every couple weeks, have dinner, then play our latest song. Lyrics are passed, comments made on structure, lyrics, form etc. It's a widely diverse group of writers and anywhere from 3-12 people show up (the email list is much bigger). It not only keeps us writing, it keeps us listening. You aren't asked to like the song, you're asked to serve it. I haven't done much online--tho I did sign up for Indaba & have made some contacts there--mostly because I'm already busy passing lyrics and mp3s back and forth with a couple of cowriters (some whom I first met in 'song group.')

This is gonna get you and me all kinds of hate mail, but I gotta be honest - the two very LAST things I'd ever do is pay someone to critique something or go to a writers' workshop. When your song works, you know it. If you're not sure it does, and you need to solicit the opinion of a room full of people or pay an "expert", your song is not ready. Just keep working on it. You'll know when you get there.

There is a whole thriving cottage industry of such workshops and critiquing services. Spend your money on production and promotion of music that's the best YOU can make it be.

I've done all of the things in your preceeding paragraph as concerns feedback from others. Now, I watch body language and emotional reaction to the folks that are listening to the song. This can be difficult, because a lot of the clubs that we perform in are not conducive to listening. If there is a an emotional response to the song, I feel that I have done my job well. After all, this is what music is really all about--memories and emotion.

i work with a co-writer/producer; i'll ususally have 75-80% of the song in a cohesive form before i think about letting anybody hear it.

i don't solicit ideas from friends; they're obligated to give you positive feedback. my wife will be allowed OCCASIONALLY, or if i have a song that's about our relationship.

that's primarily because i generate the germs for songs, whether they begin as a lyrical/conceptual idea, or a groove that "feels" like a certain lyrical/melodical idea suits it. there's really no set pattern for me; it's strictly a feel thing. the lyrics usually come easier IF i have a stong conceptual base. if the idea is sort of amorphous, the song will take longer to complete due to the ambiguity of the the fundamental idea, message or story, which takes longer to flesh out.

Because I have been doing this a long time, my own bullshit detgector is very strong, but I sometimes run songs by my non-musical husband, to see how he reacts...if I see I'm losing him, I know it's not there yet. He has picked winners befoer."Oh, I like THAT one best" and that one went on the be the Western Music Association song of the year for me.

I also have a close songwriter friend to whom I'll send snippets, and he will say "Nope, you don't have the ends tied up on that one"...or "NOW you are writing like I know you can"

A couple of live performances will tell me if a song is working or not. Some that work well on an album, do not work as well as "stand alone" songs in concert.

Internet is really all I have @ this point to get awidespread of feedback on my music besides performing -I always enjoy having new people leave comments-just really after that word of mouf-Im headed to phoenix as we have a booth @ the Lowrider Car Show March 1st- Its like if whereever u @are isnt giving u the props your lookin for then u have to expand ya horizon-So living on the East Coast I have a lot of West Coast connects and I try to utilize that to the best of my ability- I've also learned that ya homies is gonna tell u hopefully what chu wanna hear-u gotta go other places because them same homies can be lying to you then you'll be shocked that when u get out there noone really likes you-

I tend to write for myself and the subject at hand vs appeasing any type of audience. What I find is that the audience fits into 2 categories: People who like music but necessarily don't know how to write music to save their lives, or people who write music but give their 2 cent opinion based off of what THEY'D do vs what's best for YOUR song. I say do your thing and let the chips fall where they lie. Music shouldn't have "test screenings". It defeats the purpose of a song's passion if all you're trying to do is maximize sales. If that's your goal, then go audition for American Idol.

I used to play in-progress works for anyone and everyone nearby but I've found that most people don't tend to give very detailed criticisms. When I did get criticisms, they tended to be about faults that were there because I had played a rough mix.

Now, I tend to work from start to finish without seeking feedback. Criticisms is always welcome, and I seriously consider it when I get it, but I'm not willing to put in the effort to seek it out.

I used to network at East Coast Music on night a month where artists would meet and play one track of a song they may have just put together.

We would all then give that artist our feedback (using positive constructive advice) on where we thought the song might need some improvement. It was a great way to network and share our work.

This is an interesting topic Derek. I usually play my new songs, first and foremost, to fellow musicians/friends. Here, I'm looking for their crtiscisms. If they give the song praise, that's it for me!

However, I now know that it's important to play new songs to the 'lay' listeners as they usually are the music buyers; mainstream that is.

I used to network at East Coast Music one night a month where artists would meet and play one track of a song they may have just put together.

We would all then give that artist our feedback (using positive constructive advice) on where we thought the song might need some improvement. It was a great way to network and share our work.

I truly believe that the creative process is (even in the realm of, say, 'Jazz' composition and performance) a singular one. While I understand why some people might cherish the value of having another person dissect and disseminate their art, I think it is more important for the artist (or artists, if that is the case) to do this on their own. There is nobody who is going to be a greater catalyst at centralizing what you hope to express than you are -- but the key is to be willing to be honest with yourself. While other people may be able to point you into the direction where they feel you should go, I think the duty of a creative artist is to be assertive enough with yourself to figure out why something is/isn't working. Likewise, while it is possible that somebody could offer useful advice, it is just as likely that they could send you down the wrong path, which might cause you to jettison an otherwise fine piece of music.

I've found that I can instinctively tell when something I'm writing just isn't working, and I've certainly made mistakes in denying this obvious aspect when writing something (perhaps because I thought a particular aspect was 'clever'). But part of the process is listening to what you're doing, and ultimately, I feel it is more important for an artist to create something that pleases them over something that pleases someone else. If their art happens to please somebody else, that is great, but I don't feel that people should create simply out of a desire to appease others.

I send it to my most trusted musician friends. My guitarist and producer and another friend I have written with before. I look for constructive, unbiased criticism. They are the ones who know me and my capabilities and I trust them to be open to new styles and subject matter that I might be persuing. It's always a great experience and I have made amazing changes in songs and my ability to write because of them. I am not a fan of paid critiques and I would not put a song up on the web until I was sure it was finished. It may be a demo recording but the song itself must be finihsed. Here is a favorite quote from Janis Ian "Nowadays it doesn't matter if I don't write anything for a year. My thinking is, I'm a good songwriter, and occasionally I will be a great songwriter." Janis Ian

It keeps me writing and trying without having the pressure of being perfect all of the time. I am a pefectionist in many areas and it can be to a fault if I don't remember that.

Show it to a few colleagues who’s opinions I trust.

If written & recorded for a requested submission, I'll send it in and hope it sticks to the wall. If it's "close but no cigar" it often will come back with suggested changes for resubmission.

If I'm really high on it, I'll perform it at a live show to see audience reaction.

I use soundcloud.com Not all that many people are on the site yet, but most of them that care to listen will give some sort of constructive criticism or just a pat on the back or whatever.

I think songs are like photographs. If you watch a photographer in action, shooting, he or she moves around like a snake, shooting every angle, not hesitating or laboring over decisions. Then later the best handful are presented as finished product.

Never stop writing, never labor too much, finish the song and move on to the next. Evaluate them later. Get feedback, but also take some time away and listen with new perspective later. You will hear your songs with fresh ears and have a much clearer picture of which are your best.

Like any craft, the more you write, the better you get at it.

I wait a few days and if I still like a song I solicit feedback from friends who aren't afraid to tell me the honest truth. Then I turn to a "mentors" who can give me more technical advice.

I attend a once a month gathering at the Old Town School of Folk Music in Chicago where a group of sometimes 20 or more songwriters sit in a circle and critique new songs that are presented.

I'll oftentimes change certain elements of a song if the whole group agrees on a certain criticism, especially if it's some aspect I already had doubts about.

I really do aske people "What DON'T you like about my song?"

Most of my work is audio art, and these days, when I am finishing a piece, I'll put it up at a secret url on my webpage: http://www.hoodturkey.com /something not published, and then I'll e-mail a few friends and ask them for their thoughts.

Derek,

Good to see you old friend. Honestly - I wouldn't dream of soliciting feedback in any way. I create songs as a one way (OUT!) expression in order to create more. The notion of feedback on something so personal strikes me as absurd - however EXCELLENT as conversation.

All the best my friend,

B.

I like what Mr. Pike said....but reality is I never heard of him and his 19 CDs. If you're looking for the broadest possible audience for your music, and who isn't, objective criticism is crucial whether you like it or not. My two cents.

I upload them, send them to my band mates and a couple friends. Our drummer Steve is very honest. He tells me if he thinks it's too short, if the hook is good, if my lyrics suck ass.

If you're going to do a workshop, make sure you're with songwriters of equal or greater ability or level of accomplishment as you otherwise, the critiques are not going to hold much water.

Lately, I might play a song idea for my co-writing buddies and if they're into it, we finish the song. If not, it gets shelved.

If I play an idea for a friend, again it's a friend who I consider to be an excellent songwriter and if they like it, then I know I'm heading in the right direction. If he or she offers criticism that improves the song, then I'll implement their ideas. And of course I'll give them co-writing credit if the ideas get used in the final master.

Often, the tune's already finished by the time anyone hears it.

Hope some of this is helpful.

I send links to MP3s of my tunes randomly

to people I don't know. (I find it's very cost effective, and surprisingly honest... I figure a stranger has no need to soften a critique for the sake of my "feelings")

What a great question.. And one that has haunted me of late. There's a few answers in my life:

1. Play it for a friend or my mom if I need an ego boost.

2. Don't play it for anyone until I finish it, or near finish it. By then it's usually congealed into its final form and making changes is harder.

3. WHAT I WOULD LIKE TO DO: upload it to my Web site or another Web site and share it with a small trusted group of people who I know will give me *honest* feedback. People who know the industry and are experienced songwriters themselves.

4. I also submit songs to Taxi, and sometimes give feedback, which is great. But may of their listings give you a simple accept/reject, with no critique.

Damian

I'd never use a paid service to critique my work. That's just throwing away good money.

Being a comedy-based writer, I spend a great deal of time in serious writing and polishing of my tracks before I release them.

Then, once released, I let the chips fall where they may and solicit feedback from friends or people I've met on-line.

Over the years, I've gotten some great feedback on the quality of tracks I mix...I've learned to listen to it using someone else's ear.

I use to just worry about if people "got it". Now I know that if they can hear it..."getting it" is secondary. My vocals need to be mixed correctly and the overall mix has to be sharp.

Of course, it helps to have my own "comedy" review site (www.AllSuckReview.com) where folks can get my review of their work (provided they want to hear me say that it sucks).

Then, they may, in turn, check out my stuff and give me some feedback.

Oh yeah, it helps when they buy my stuff. Getting paid is always a great piece of feedback.

Typically, I know what I am after when I write... Not that I know the finished form - but the journey to that finished form can take an hour, a week, a month, or years. I don't always know right away when I am done. Or I think I am, but discover later that I am not. And that process of gradual completion is what I am after - like digging a fossil out of soft mud and bit by bit separating the bone from the debris. Or chipping away at a block of ice or gnarly piece of wood until hidden forms are able to reveal themselves, as completely as possible.

...So other people's input is not always very helpful to this process. I make what I want to make, I write what I want to write, and then I record or perform it and people respond how they respond. I haven't had many, if any, bad reactions, though some tunes clearly have more of an effect that others. That is fine.

Often I test my "finished" tunes at open mic nights so I can see what they do. Then I have a better idea of how they might fit into a live set or a CD project. Sometimes the order in which a few songs are performed can emphasize or totally kill the response to one or another of them.

Actually, as for bad reactions, they sometimes come when I first start writing, when the idea is raw and naked and maybe a little bit goofy, and I have to weather the doubts (mine and others') in order to pursue what I know has promise.

I don't write or perform for applause or appreciation (although, these things are nice when they happen). I do it because I love it, and because I love to do it well when I can. (This can be practiced). As it happens, people respond well to that.

This month I'm writing & recording 14 songs...and putting them out in public to get feedback. That's a hard process, but is enlightening.

I've got one day left, and only 5 songs published on my site.

But I'd like to hear what you think.

I just did this today. I have been working on my new musical so I am writing the libretto as well as the songs so the lyric ideas have to be contectual. The dialogue tells you if the next emotional step is dance (sometimes) or song, a heightened emotional vehicle. So, I had written a new song for the musical (It's about Moses) and I wrote some music I liked (big emotional ballad)and then spent a few days working on the dialogue and the lyric at the same time. My first draft I ran by my wife (not a songwriter but a very educated person (MD))and she said she felt the emotion in the lyric so I will then do a studio ruff/work disc and perfect the chorus melody so it maximizes the emotion. Typically notally the fifth is a much stronger point than the third or the tonic for a starting note in the chorus. In big ballads sustaining and repeating those lead notes can lead to those much wanted and anticipated goose bumps....I've had quite a lot of success with my songs so I'm fairly confidant the critique process is working. I work to write memorable yet not overly simplistic melodies. I have a small group of people I would also occasionally run an idea/half-finished song by and most of them have been at one time a co-writer. When I lived in Nashville I would go by ASCAP (I am a BMI writer and both BMI and ASCAP publisher)and run some songs by some of the VP's. That helped a lot.

Some years ago, I posted my songs on certain online platforms where you got feedback from other (similar) artists or whoever. It was absolutely unhelpful due to various reasons. 50 comments, 50 opinions.

What I learned then was that music is best when it comes straight from your heart, no compromise! I nowadays make the music only for myself, the way I like it. The way I would wish others to make their music sound like but they don't do it.

I only ask friends with knowledge in this matter for help concerning the technical side: EQing, mastering, etc. But the music... well, frankly, I don't care anymore if others like my music or not. Some do, that's great, but most don't. Their bad. ;)

If my 4 year old is humming or singing the melody/chorus an hour later without realizing it, I know I've got a winner :)

I usually don't present unfinished tracks. When I have an idea I go for it. When it is finished I decide what to do with it, if I keep it or forget it. But I'm writing so much music. We ( Elizabeth and I )have written and produced 30+ high quality instrumental tracks since January.

The more I do, the more ideas come up. I don't like to breed over a piece of music. If it is strong, it pops up all on it's own.

Dear derek, thanks for all your great articles, as a singer/songwriter, i just put out whatever comes out of me. Music is subjective, what one may dislike, another will praise. So i have learned to share my music wherever i can : with other musicians, with listeners and different audiences of all ages, and in different envirements. I havn,t tried the songwriter circles, maybe cause my experiences with other musicians are always too judgemental, and ego,s in the way. well take care and be blessed derek

I write with a partner, so we both tear each other apart or pour praise; both with no shame which is good.

We recently did a record with a famous producer and he had no mercy on our 'precious' songs. He'd rip entire verses out or say something was crap. Sometimes he was right and other times we stuck to our guns and he came around. In either case, it was a new experience and really opened us up to a fresh way of working with objectivity and unattachment.

We also try out songs for friends and ask for critique, but I've found the BEST way to get feedback is to just throw a new song (even if unfinished) into our live set and see and feel how it goes over. I find you can tell pretty quickly whether it goes over or not.

I listen closely for the applause !

I've found that constructive criticism should only be solicited (via email from close friends and family) when you are "finished" or nearly finished with a recording. If you want feedback about a song you are writing then I would apply the same general logic... wait until you are done or nearly so and then listen to your friends advice with an open mind. Don't immediately disregard what they are saying until you have had a chance to thoroughly digest the critique and then you can make a decision to act on the advice. I recommend at least one good nights sleep before making changes or disregarding advice.

I am lucky enough to live in an area that is surrounded by great musicians. If I am stuck and absolutely need to hear what other people think, i'll take it to the most honest and best musicians I know. People who are a ton better than I am hahaha.

As long as you know they are being honest...thats the best thing to do.

I wouldn't release anything I wasn't 100% proud of. As long as you are "there" with your music...go ahead and release it, THEN just hope people see what you see.

The other day Gwyneth Paltrow said something like this:

"You don't get it, because if you GOT it, you would LOVE it"

As long as you are doing good work, that you are happy with, people will get it.

Don't listen to or trust critics. Good or Bad review.

I like to play it for my 10 year old daughter; if she says it sucks then she's probably right. Kids are very honest. Other than that I play it for other musical friends who also write songs and eventually play it live at a gig.

TO THOSE THAT SAY THEY DON'T SEEK FEEDBACK:

Does that mean your songs can not be improved?

Or that they can be improved, but only you know how to improve it?

Or that others might have great suggestions for improvements, but you just don't want to hear it?

in terms of feedback, there is something that i keep in mind the whole time. if you are going to present a song to the public then it is going into the general song pool with all the other songs that have been written and then sung in public. that pool includes every song by rodgers and hammerstein, the beatles, bob dylan, etc. you get the picture. so pick your favorite songs by other people and put them up against your song. are they that good? if they aren't then you haven't finished writing your song yet. check out the numerous post on this at the free artist resource site, www.datamusicata.com

james lee stanley

I hit up friends on AIM or via email and ask them to give me feedback on a new mix which I've uploaded to my server.

Be sure to ask musicians and non-musicians! They look at music very differently!

I never ever ever play a new song for the public until it is copywritten. I know in my heart that my song is MY song and if anybody rips off my new song which is like gold to me I would be shattered. My music is my soul, nobody can take it away from me.

Once my new tune is copywritten and pressed I perform it in public. Trust NO ONE in this world. Take the GIN BLOSSOMS for example. Doug Hopkins was kicked out of the band for drinking and they made his tunes a hit on Billboard so he shot himself in the mouth.

my bandmate never hesitates to mention something in a song that doesn't work and it always ends up being something in the song that i was having doubts about anyway. beyond that playing the songs live has always been the best indicator. if i don't have any desire to play a song live it's usually a good reason to ditch it because if i'm not excited enough about it to tear into it live that means it's most likely not a very good song.

If it passes my own inner editor then it's fine. I'm very demanding of myself.

2 things:

songwriting workshop at hudson valley community college in troy ny- run by me

cat songwriters festival, may 30-31 in hudson ny...have your song critiqued by the pros

end of commercial

Besides pop/rock, which I've done my whole life, I have been writing musical theatre for about 15 years, and in that community one's material is critiqued and workshopped constantly. We have a sort of "salon" of writers who meet monthly to listen to and critique the work of the others. But I've seldom done anything like that in my pop work.

When I collaborate, which I often do, the collaboration itself is the quality control -- I only collaborate with those who are in it for the purpose of creating the best song possible and who check their egos at the door.

When I write alone, which I do for my own singer-songwriter material, I am my own harshest critic and, really, I try to create something that would hold my own interest if I heard it as someone else's. I do not as a rule play a finished song for others for the purpose of notes; my personal material is just that, personal, and I don't have much of a need for acceptance by every single person who hears it.

On the other hand, if I'm creating a song for someone else or the general market then, yes, I look for notes from my most trusted songwriting buddies.

i like to record a new song and then leave it alone for a few days. when i pick it up again, i have forgotten "where i was" with it. that way, i get to hear it with brand new fresh ears - as if hearing it for the first time.

other people's opinions are worthwhile - but the most important opinion is your own. the songs that i have had the most sales and success with were the ones that blew ME away first and foremost.

i read in an interview where a big time CEO used a little trick each time he had to make a big decision. he used to photocopy the document he was working on and then throw the original away - thereby 'removing' himself from the pressure of the task at hand.

that is why we pay producers (and therapists). they are not attached to the feelings the way we are.

it is hard to be an artist, a producer, a marketing guru, an accountant, and a regular person - all at the same time.

but we love it now don't we?!)

thanks derek for all that you do!

bill

www.itunes.com/billwest

www.billwestmusic.com

When I accidently sent a recording of hangover to a group of friends

instead of the song that I promised them that I was sending, and "THEY LOVED IT", I was convinced that friends are not the 'sounding board' for new songs!

After 40+ years of songwriting, which has included an occasional hit, when my collaboraror and I

get done 'bouncing' it off of each other, we take it in to the studio and demo it...one of the guys in my band who worked with Elvis and

a bunch of big names has a 'sixth sense' about songs and isn't timid about letting you know his feelings!

We call it the "Ron-test"....

That's my story Derek and I'm sticking to it.....for now!

Rich

I've been in songwriter groups, and I really adore the community aspect of it. I think they are a powerful way to network, workout ideas, and stay connected & inspired.

That said, I've found that for me, songwriting is a pretty fragile thing. I've brought songs in, played them, and gotten wonderful feedback, constructive criticism, but something happens, and after I've played a song that is not finished, and opened it up that way - I completely loose energy to finish it. And the bummer is, it's my loss.

I love songwriter gatherings, and wish they worked for me, but I've got to honor the tunes coming through first.

The best feedback is an audiences response - and playing a new tune out helps tweak it.

I'll also play them one on one for artists I trust.

Everyone's process is different.

That's what's so crazy-making and magical about the whole thing.

by the time someone hears it, is it pretty much done

I was always fearful of people stealing the songs if I sent them to somewhere I didn't know.

But no one has knocked on my door about them either.

This is what I do for feedback:

http://www.em411.com

Sometimes they can be brutal, at other times very helpful. I like it.

When I first write a new song , I call up my sister Lisa and sing it for her over the phone. I can gauge by her reaction if it's any good. If she cries then I know it's good.

then I will call up some of my song writing friends and also sing it over the phone, while playing the guitar, a skill that many of us song writers have learned to do. If I get a thumbs up, then I might try it out on stage. If after singing it for my friends ( who are honest) and I hear well.. Rik.. it's OK ..but....

Then it goes into the song bin :)

Oh, I should have also said that the people I ask for feedback know that I want honest feedback. I tell them to be blatantly honest.

I have found that feedback during the critical stage of creation doesn't help. I have to trust my own instincts. I'm the one who is going to be playing it, so it has to sit right with me. after the song is finished I don't mind criticism but it seems very subjective, people have their own tastes. one person will seem lukewarm about a song (which means they probably hate it) and then another will say it's their absolute favorite. I don't think I could ever do a songwriting workshop where they tear you apart, except maybe to learn new ways of playing guitar. The lyric writing and singing comes from a place that is too unknown to me, I think interference at that stage would be a disaster.

Good question Derek. When I need feed back for Ronnie's songs I usually go to internet DJ's. (the indie guys) I find most DJ's are pretty honest about whether a song will play well for their audience. Of course there are exceptions but so far my experience has been awesome. They really go in depth about what they think is good or needs to be improved.

I have a few friends who I respect and a spouse, all of whom are gutsy enough to tell me the truth. I play at a twice monthly jam where new material can be introduced and an audience can react. Until I write that million seller, I have more work to do..:-)

I'm my worst critic when it comes to song writing. I don't need the imput of others. I need to feel confident to share it with my audience and stand fully behind what I'm singing about. I'm sharing myself, my feelings and experiences in my songs. Being authentic is my goal and I hope people can connect.

Marianne

Don't listen to it for a few days, or better longer, so that you can kinda hear it more like someone else, as opposed to the heat of passion, right after you wrote it. Objectivity?

Same goes for emails! If it's something angry or sensitive, read it a few days later, then decide whether to send it or not!

Now, if I could only follow my own advice like that, I'd be PERFECT!

See my 2/27/09 Twits about that

http://twitter.com/arkadymusic

which is how I found out about this page! - Derek's another ace!

If I simply write a song, and consider it complete right out of the box, that's plain arrogance, as well as a disservice to the song.

Some of my best songs came about *after* the tweaking. I once wrote a first draft of a song in a few hours, but it took months of tightening stuff before it really sounded like a "real song". Song songs simply have their own incubation time.

I've spent valuable hours in songwriting workshops with professional songwriters and others, which is really helpful. I've also met some good co-writers this way.

A few years ago Julia Brown and I used to host a songwriting circle of peers in my kitchen in Brooklyn, which we called "The Kitchen", and those were like sacred songwriting circles in which we listened to and critiqued each other's work.

We had lots of talented singer/songwriters come through "The Kitchen", which was a very supportive and honest atmosphere. I highly recommend setting up songwriting circles with people you respect.

Your girlfriend will always love your songs - that's easy! Instead, get around like-minded songwriters who will force you to bring your A Game to the table. Nothing like a little healthy competition to inspire you.

Having said all of that, I also believe that it's important for a songwriter to be ruthless when it comes to handling creative feedback from others. You can play your song for three different people, and get three different suggestions for change.

While it's important to be open to making a song the best it can be, it's also important to remain true to the song that's coming to life through you.

I get critiques from TAXI and Broadjam when submitting tunes to listings.....other than that, I write, record, and produce a final product that works for me. During the process, I'm always thinking of comments made by other writers and producers about what they think makes a great song....but the bottom line is if it works for me. If I want the truth, I play it for my wife....she's usually spot on with comments regarding the song, the performance, and the mix.

I HAVE A FEW HONEST PEOPLE THAT I LET LISTEN,WHO KNOW MUSIC AND ARE IN MY TARGET AUDIENCE AND A FEW WHO DONT AND AREN'T.SOMETIMES THE BEST WAY,I FIND IS TO GRAB SOMEONE YOU DON'T KNOW,WHO'S IN YOUR TARGET AUDIENCE, BUT DON'T TELL THEM IT'S YOUR MUSIC.YOU WILL USUALLY GET THE MOST UNBIASED OPINION THAT WAY.

Here is something off the norm maybe no one has tried or heard of here. Norah Jones had her first album analyzed before she broke out. This software predicted 8 songs would be a hit before anyone had heard of her. Sure all the usual play it out, get the fans response is the tried and true way to go about it, I'm not saying not to do that just that this is interesting.

http://artists.uplaya.com/

I am slowly building a team of people around me that I trust to give constructive feedback on my writing. It is certainly a subjective world, but when you have a team of people that you know will give their honest opinion and only have your growth in mind as a writer, I think it's imperative to get feedback. I have paid for that service also and have found that helpful too, but more and more I work with a team of people to give their thoughts.

If we want to write from our hearts and not do this for a living, forget other's opinions...but if you are seriously pursuing music for a career, you must learn how to craft your songs in way that moves people and many times we need help communicating in a way that people 'get it.'

My 2 cents : )

I play them live at my gigs without telling anyone who wrote the songs them and I gauge the reaction, when I have played them and get a good reaction I eventually announce that it is a self pinned number, and work off that . Keep up the great work derick , peace Martin Kenny .

You know now a days people go with the flow in what they r writing! Even though I've gotten and still get extreme criticism on my songs!!

There are so many ways to write songs. You can just look at something and write a song!!

I ask myself what am I doing here? What am I trying to put across in this song, this section, etc? If I can't answer that question I stop. When I know the answer to that question, I can get the sentiment out. After I get a part out I ask myself is this the best way to get my point across? If not I refine until I decide it's better to stop than continue.

I make game soundtracks for a living and the feedback has, over time, broken my musical ego in a million pieces. You have to be prepared to have something that you just created, be totally rejected. Sometimes it's a tune that you were absolutely sure was beyond incredible. Heck, maybe it was! but it doesn't fit the animation or theme. The bottom line is: Where is your music going to be played and what is it supposed to do? Shake butts? Jerk Tears? Cause Hysteria? In the end, you always have to think of your audience....even if the song is about you and how nobody understands you! You gotta stand back and look at it from different angles and viewpoints. Take nothing personal

for a long time it was mom. then i moved out on my own and haven't been able to find anyone as eager or available as her. . . most recently, ascap songwriter of the year, darrell scott, give me a book by jimmy webb called, "tunesmith". it's really the best book on songwriting i've ever seen, and in it he preaches (quite impressivley) the merits of not playing any new song for anyone before it's done. he warns against the pit-falls of even mentioning that you are in the middle of writing something. i liked it. for me, it had the ring of truth. thanks for asking.

If someone else gives me an idea I would have to give them credit.

The problem with a helping ear is that everyone has different taste, and very often the advice will not be neutral. Not every song is supposed to have that big chorus, or please everyone.

But what I do from time to time when I get stuck is this. I have a few friends (musicians by the way) who tend to like what I do so I know they won't try to turn my song into something it's not supposed to be. I'll call them and sing a few ideas (capo on the third fret, maybe 5th fret... bridge, no bridge???). When I hear a couple of people say the same thing, I will give it a try and take it from there.

Simple, I put it in the form of a ringtone for the masses to hear, usually free at first, and if it downloads a lot, one can almost judge by the ammount of dls whether it be successful or not. Music can be very subjective and variety of genres is worth the effort. So, experiment with diff sounds.

Thats just me though, Im a newby and as Manuel from FT used to say, I Know Nawthing.

One tip I learned, get to the point with ur song within 12 seconds and dont have long intros.

Cheers !

I upload the songs to MacJams.com and let the community there tell me what they think, taking it all with a grain of salt. Ultimately, if I don't like it, how far's it going to go?

MacJams folks know how to evaluate emotionally as well as technically, so I get a very good read from them. I also base progress on friends and fan feedback.

Again, though, it's gotta resonate within my spirit. And no matter how much someone else may like or dislike a tune - if it's working for me, that's the voice I have to trust.

Aloha -

Bing

Most of the songs I write start out on an online song writing competition, Song Fight!, and the most valuable part of that is the critiquing which goes on in the forum. Most of it is pretty objective, and an even mixture of praise and criticism.

A spinoff, somesongs, is oriented much more towards freeform song commentary, and while that community has been stagnating for a while, the ones who are the most steadfast there are also some of the best music critiquers I've ever seen (although sometimes they can get a little vicious for some peoples' tastes).

I used to have a roommate who was also a writer, he was a total lyric guy and not so strong with chords and melody, me the opposite. So we complimented each other well. I still email him time-to-time.

I'm also planning a songwriters get together, on the Jack Hardy model. Get four writers (preferably who come from very different styles of music) and have them present unfinished work to be constructively criticized by the others. I've done this in other cities and felt it's worked out really well.

But for me, all the work that goes into a song is irrelevant to the way the audience reacts. I vet to decide what of what I'm writing is stage worthy. But until I play it for an audience, I have no sense of whether or not it's good. So I do a lot of open mics to work out newer stuff.

THERE IS SO MENY SONG WRITERS OUT THERE. I RELLY DON'T TRY. I AM A SELF TOUGH MUSICAN AND LOVE PLAYING OTHER PEOPLE MUSIC, OR WITH SOMEONE.I BEEN IN IT SO LONG, I JUST LOVE PLAYING AND SINGING.

I also attended Berklee and have been working as a live musician in Los Angeles. There is a workshop of Berklee Songwriters here once a month which is pretty helpful.

However, the most useful thing I found is to actually play the song live at my regular gigs or an open mic; I usually try the song in a few different venues. Then I get a real idea of what works or doesn't by gauging the audience's reaction. I usually tweak the song at least once or twice before I consider it finished.

I like a mix of feedback--

At open mics and workshops, you get feedback from other songwriters so it can be helpful in technical ways/song form/lyrics/chords, etc. but you don't always get an honest "gut" reaction.

Non-musicians know if they like it or not but can't usually tell you why. The best part is when I play an original at a restaurant mixed in with covers and people ask "who wrote that last song?" Then I know the song is ready...

The songs I've written don't sound alike they r all totally different! Some of my other songs that I have not had arranged yet sound like some of the songs on my cd but not really!! They r all different!!

I write songs that turn on the woman that I love. Those are the songs that come naturally to me. Feedback is a matter of reading body language and then no more than a few simple questions. Starting with something to say can prevent a lot of other revision measures.

Happy writing.

The best art of any kind has to come from the "soul" or basic instincts of the artist. The difference is, some have more talent than others. Either the lyrics, or the melodic hook, really comes through. The melodic hook seems to be the more important thing in producing a "hit"; I never liked to admit that before, because I always start first with an idea about a lyric line. But the song is going NOWHERE without a melodic hook. The only place where lyrics are more important, I think, is in musical theater.

I really believe the more people involved in writing a song or critiquing it, the more contrived it gets, the more confused the songwriter gets, and the magic that sparked the song in the beginning, is greatly at risk of being lost. In fact, for me, if I can't write a song in 1 hour's time, I let the idea go and wait for another. It's all there, very quickly for me, if I've really got something worthy.

I joined a support network in Philadelphia - Philadelphia Area Songwriters Alliance (PASA). Membership consists of songshare events at member homes where new songs are debuted and critiqued. Very supportive non-judgemental crits help members to revise songs.

Derek; Great question! All and more is the answer.When I write a song and think it's " done " I play it for close friends, musicians buddies and especially my wife. She is objective and one wrinkled eyebrow is worth a thousand words! Then,if I can get out and incorporate it into my live gigs, I watch people. I watch for their attention, their reactions, bodily movements and the applause. Sometimes I won't say it's my song the first time I play it live. Depends on the situation. With my new CD, although I sell as many as possible, I e-mail out tons of free mp3 versions of select songs and I ask for actual feedback. That works real well!

Bruce

i write songs for a band called ingredients the band. i record a bunch of demos myself and show the band, i gauge how good the song is partly by my original instinct combine with the level on enthusiasm of the band. for me it's about keeping the band's interest in the music, they also help call the songs live. Also the other band members show fans the demos, the fans let me know what they like. after a while i have a better idea of what my guys enjoy and i have increased pressure writing more stuff. I can tell my songs are enjoyable because we play them for years and laugh.

When I have finished composing a song,or piece of music,I will play to a variety of my 'musician friends' who compose/write in many different genres.This way I can gauge a response,or a feeling on the song/piece. However,as one of your bloggers suggested,this can confuse a songwriter even more so.I do feel,all musicians/composers 'Know' when they have written a good song...it's just an initial gut feeling.My favourite reaction is when someone will say to me "your song depressed me a little"I think "Bingo! I got an emotional response".The word 'depressed' does not come across as a negative for me in instances like that. My prime ambition as a composer/songwriter is to make the hairs stand up on the back of the listeners neck.If i can do that...I'm a happy man,and if it makes the hairs stand up on mine...that's even better.

If I am writing a song for a band then i will ask for opinions, thoughts etc from the members but i have never actively asked an audience or member of the public for a song critique. i have learnt not to write songs in stone and to re-assess a song after not hearing it for a few weeks. The two problems as i see it are objectivity on the one hand and finding someone who can see and explain any flaws and improvements on the other.

to what derek said "does that mean your song can't be improved?"

I think they can and do get improved over time, from playing, and also in the recording process. I just think that until they reach a certain point they should be left alone from outside input, to have their own voice.

Did Dylan ask what others thought?

I doubt true songwriters do. If its real for them, and the purpose isnt to appeal to anyone other than there true self..then I dont think other opinions matter, unless the imput relates to what to leave in or out, or a musical decision in relation to dynamics. Writers write.

Well, the few times I've paid for critique I was disappointed. It didn't help me at all. There are certain things you can't or shouldn't change anyways just because one dude in California said so. That's just one point of view. And remember, they are paid to do that. Feedback can be good, but learn to pick out what will really benefit your craft.

too many cooks

and art is not about market research

There are so many different genres, and people react so differently to every type. I find it impossible to take criticism seriously. Not only that, a song may work for someone on a particular day at a particular moment, but be borderline offensive another day.

If a song has personality, it will be interesting whatever musical mistakes you've made. But if you're worried about how it will be received, then, the odds are that it's pretty flat and you're hoping someone else sees something worthwhile in it.

Rich #2

Of course, Library of Congress(I really hate them)and BMI registration is paramount!

I forgot, besides the "Ron-test", we put our new songs up on Broadjam where to date we've had almost one thousand reviews....musicians from that site will e-mail each other, back and forth, about a particular song so that's a good thing too!

Derek -

My writing process isn't about anyone's perspective but my own. I don't feel that art should be a democratic process. No one else sees or hears what I see and hear, so no one else is going to come up with what I'm going to come up with. That is what I have to contribute to the culture, not my ability to compile a set of public opinions. I am not a politician, and I object strongly to the creative industry that is largely run in a political manner. We are all individuals, and we should contribute our individualness - not our distillation of what we think someone else wants to hear.

I play in a few other people's groups, and I don't tell them how to write their tunes! Though I'll give positive and constructive feedback if they ask.

I view music and therefore songs as naturally occurring formations, something like crystals. I have written a few in collaboration with poet or musician friends, and some of those are wonderful! But I wouldn't tell my poet friends how to fix their words, unless I was invited to do so - and although there is value to writing workshops, I have never fared well in those either. No one else ever seems to get what it is I'm after...

I don't see "improving" a song as relevant to the capturing of an expression. Would you tell Picasso how to "improve" a painting? Or, not to put myself on a level with Picasso, would you tell the guy drawing with chalk on the street corner how to "improve" his work?

I guess you're free to do that, if you want to, or if he asks. But I would rather hear a creative artist's expression (and we are all creative artists, every living being) of their own movement through the universe than listen to something created by consensus.

That said, everyone should do what feels right to them. I guess I take a little bit of offense at this:

"TO THOSE THAT SAY THEY DON’T SEEK FEEDBACK:

Does that mean your songs can not be improved?

Or that they can be improved, but only you know how to improve it?

Or that others might have great suggestions for improvements, but you just don’t want to hear it?"

...as it implies "we" who don't seek feedback are somehow "wrong" - whereas I could just as well imply that if you DO seek feedback, you are either a sycophantic attention junkie or lack the necessary confidence to create "real" or "meaningful" art on your own ...

But I don't think either of those things has to be true. And it is definitely the case that some of my best work would never have been written if I'd listened to the people around me.

I live and work alone. The only way I can get feedback on a new song is to play it at open-mic nights, which I attend here in Dublin. First I announce that this song is brand new and this is the first time to have it played in public. As I play the song I watch people, foot tapping is a good indication. If I see feet tapping then I feel that the song is working. I also watch faces and can read the attention they are giving or when they look away or begin to talk I know I have lost their attention. I make a mental note at what point they begin to lose interest, this is an indication to me of a weak point in the song. When I finish playing I listen to what people say to me. Comments can range from. "A bit too long". To. "Great song Tarlach." I also use my gut feeling when writing the song. Usually I can tell if it is working or not. Hard to describe this process as it is internal. Easiest way to describe it is to say. "It feels right." Sometimes a song just arrives fully formed, ready to go. All I have to do is play the song a lot and develop my depth of expression, my connection with the emotion in the song. The deeper this connection the better the performance and the better the connection with people listening.

Other songs need a bit more work. To get to the heart of the subject.

Develop a language to express the truth of what I am attempting to say in the song. Live playing is for me the best way to judge the reaction or impact a song has. My goal is to touch the listener and connect with them. If the song does this it is working, if not I usually consider the song in need of more work. Thank you for your interest.

This is what I really miss about working in a band context instead of how I'm now working solo. Bandmates can help a lot on honest feedback. Lately I record really rough demos of twice as much material as I'll put on my album & then I said it out to ten friends asking to vote the songs from 1-4 stars.

As with most jazz musicians/composers I write tunes that are mostly very personal and try to tell a story. Sometimes I get too involved in the harmony or an overly complicated melody and the story loses it's clarity. I usually rely on my former teacher and a few close friends to point that out! I also write some tunes with a sale value in mind. These I tend to play on gigs and gauge the audience reaction... deathly silence means something's got to change!

Foremost it all depends on how strong YOU feel about the tune, but if you want someone's honest, constructive feedback one way is to consider the song as a product to pitch and in doing so know that the mood of the song is better received if it fits the mood of the 'moment' so that it can be better appreciated. i.e don't pitch a laid back song to someone amped up and ready to go out the door for a party or a thrashing high energy song Sunday morning when people are kicked back. Music/art is totally subjective and a mood thing. Might be smart to wait for the right timing to present your ideas...

I live in a built-in critiquing environment since I've played in a trio for over 18 years now with the same two women. Typically, I bring a song in to rehearsal and ask for feedback. Which verse should I keep? Which one should I throw out? Their answer: "keep 'em both." I never thought of that option, so I do. Then I might submit that same song to a contest where the judges give written feedback. Typically, they say, "it needs something to connect verse on with three," so I sit down and write a bridge. When it seems complete to me, we record it.

I've been to the kind of song critiques you described at song writing retreats. Most feedback in those sessions tends to get on the picky side, like, "can't you find an Anglo-Saxon word for that?" And sometimes you just want a Latin-based, multi-syllable word in your song anyway. I don't mind those kinds of critiques, but in the end, the writer is owner and must decide which feedback to use and which to throw away.

Hey Derek,

Love your stimulation.

I'm a member of TAXI so often get a feedback I don't necessarily agree with, but usually find something useful in their critique.

They are well meaning, but are intrinsically tied up with what's happening right now.

I have a good friend who is not afraid to tell me what he sees and hears. We don't always agree, but I have changed lyrics many times with things he has suggested.

Songwriting without a collaborator is an "Ivory Tower" type of experience so it is important to get feedback, but in the end we can't listen to too many voices or it will destroy us. Most often we are our own worse critic...Jack Walker

When it comes to finding out what people thing about a one of my new original songs, I often believe in the trial by fire method. I either record it in my home studio in some semi finished fashion and upload it to a variety of web locations such as the Podsafe Network, or I perform it live at one of my gigs to see what people think. Sometimes I run it by my wife or a friend or two, but usually I like to just put it out there.

This is true of both solo acoustic original songs as well as band type original songs. In the case of the band we work out all the bugs at home the present them live or recorded and basically see what happens. Sometimes if the crowd is a familiar one I will tell them that it is a new original tune so they may pay closer attention. Or if it is a crowd of strangers I will just do it and not say anything to see what the reaction is.

I don’t really want to have people critiquing the songs note by note or line by line because anyone can take any tune no matter how great and rip it apart when they look at it in detail. Most people don’t really pay that close attention to the minutia of a song, they just listen to the whole package. And that is what I offer them. It is a pass/fail kind of thing. They either like it or they don’t. Often I do this with several different audiences to see how each will react. You can also get different reactions from the same type of crowd to the same song depending upon the mood of the audience on a given night. So the more the merrier.

I use a real-time audio collaboration plug-in called Virtual Glass to do real time writing/music critique with music partners anywhere in the world! The plug-in is free and works with all music software applications that support plug-ins. Mac only as of now, but Win version forthcoming. Download here:

Virtual Glass Plug-in (RTAS, AU, VST):

www.esession.com/virtualglassdownload/VirtualGlassInstaller.pkg.zip

I ask my family, and friends who I used to gig with, and try them out with an English publisher I deal with. I write country songs mainly.

The comments have been good mostly.

Any negative remarks and I rewrite the song.

Everybody is a critic, everybody has something to say. What I look for is what each critique offers. Even when approaching "friends" I will NOT say "so what do you think" with a smile on my face. I will say "tell me what you didn't like about it", then see what their reaction is. Art is subjective, but music composition does have some hard and fast rules when you looking to broaden your market.

I also went to berklee and I feel fortunate having met so many different musicians there that I have a lot of different ears that I can play new ideas for. I also think about what different teachers have told me. Hal Crook recommends to always record yourself and listen back. I always try to record myself practicing or performing, This I find is especially helpful during rehearsals to hear how new material sounds. I'm also constantly thinking of how I want the music to sound. It always sounds one way when I write it and totally different when I put it in front of a band. Sometimes I have to change the orchestration to see what works best. Lately I've been trying to write a bunch of ideas and then come back to them later with a new perspective on it. I have tons of unfinished songs that I didn't finish yet, because I haven't heard a new way to work with the material. I'm also very critical about what I put out for people to hear, I want to make sure that I like it and if I enjoy than I hope other people will to.

It's the "High Fidelity" philosophy

from the movie

someone says "Yeah this is a great song."

then you say "I know."

After writing songs for a long time, (which were more for me than anyone else), I started buying songwriting books; at least 4 from Berkeley College of Music and others. What a mass of confusion.

One book would say don't rhyme your words, blah and more blah. So I went on a quest to start writing songs that were each different. (some rhymed some didn't, and on and on). I would send a song out to be looked at, and it would get trashed apart.

Then I slopped something together in a few minutes and submitted it to makeastar.com (many years ago) and they said it got chosen 16 out of 8000 to be submitted for their competition, that I didn't win. (dahhh?, I even played the song out of time and it at least got picked for the competition!!).

Then I got to meet the author of one of the songwriting books I had in San Diego folk alliance(@4 years ago) John Braheny (same year I met Derrick) and he gave me the best advice ever" "Write from your heart and you can't go wrong".

So I don't really care what others think of my songs. I write them for myself first, and what I have found is that some songs that I don't think are good people purchase more than anything.

I would rather spend my time writing 20 songs than rehashing one song over and over with a person that wants to change everything with it. Its like submitting your dreams to someone for critique. (its MY dream NOT yours!)

My advice would be to write as many songs as you can and don't spend a ton of time on one song; then play them for your audience they will let you know what they like, and they usually don't say anything about what they don't like.

Most of the songwriters that I have seen "make it" (whatever that means) wrote at least 250-500 songs before they found their own way, they didn't submit their songs to anyone, why should we?

I normally play a new song to a musician friend just before the final polishing stage just to get an initial reaction - I find the song often comes out different at this point, and gives me an idea of what I still need to work on. I recently played a showcase to an A&R agency and received detailed feedback on the songs. Getting impartial criticism is invaluable. I didn't like everything they said at first, but once I put aside my ego I realised there were areas of my songwriting that could still be improved. This is the only way to learn!

There's a phenomenon my colleagues and I call Song High, under the influence of which I think every song is brilliant for approximately 2 weeks after I write it. Only after Song High subsides can I hope to get any objectivity about a tune.

In the 80s I was one of the founders of a forum in New York called Song Party. We considered ourselves to be "lifers" as opposed to what we called Sunday Songwriters. It was an incredible support group, and I really recommend starting such groups with like-minded souls. We met every 2 weeks for 4 years. That plus a slew of classes, workshops, industry events, etc. gave me many brutal reality checks. I also had a great mentor, Doc Pomus.

These days I rely on a few trusted friends, colleagues and co-writers... and of course the business folks we submit material to constantly. If I don't hear "OHMYGAWD THIS IS THE GREATEST SONG I'VE EVER HEARD" then I might as well toss it out, because no one wants an album cut. They only want one-listen frying-pan-over-the-head hit singles! And if I'm really lucky have a few more of those in me...

Thoughts about songwriting:

I like to play songs I write for new ears to get feedback. Also,

the advantage to playing in a band includes instant feedback from the other players. I never force a tune into the group's repertoire. I trust the people I play with and if a song agrees with everyone, it usually has a place on stage in front of the audience. The trick hear is knowing when to let a song die, or just knowing the song was not meant for that moment or that specific application.

Peace and Pretzels,

Maury R. (Hypnotic Clambake's Accordionist)

I have written literally hundreds of songs over the years. When I was younger, I would play them for friends and relatives and give out tapes. Sometimes I would get to perform and could gauge audience reaction. I don't seek much feedback anymore. I have my recording partner, who gives good feedback and sometimes co-writes with me. Usually, with my technical experience at crafting structure and lyrics together, a song's impact is more dependent on how strongly I felt about writing it than anything else. I think that was true, even before I had this much behind me. If you feel it, craft it tightly, and people will sense the authenticity.

Hmm. Good question Derek. In regards to "feedback" I have one friend I count on, he won't sugar coat something if it's WACK. Granted ONE person telling you "the work is great" or "That stinks" is not the smartest thing right now I am trying to find younger people (cousins in their teens/early college) for my focus group...when I am looking to aim "that music at that audience"

Derek,

I generally keep it to myself but would love to find other songwriters interested in critique and discussion. I've thought about joining songwriting groups but can't seem to commit. So, my music will generally get road tested at shows and that's it. I guess I'm judge, jury, and progenitor.

I started writing songs for self expression, personal release or for telling a story about something that was important to me or others. I have always been very cautious and particular about how a tell the story. The little things are important. For example, I don't follow any traditional song structure or pattern. This is my story, my song, I am going to create it the way I hear it. I don't normally listen to criticism, I am not writing for others so much or for making hit songs. This is my art and vision I am sharing with you. I do it for the freedom or creation and having something that has not been tampered with.

Yo Mr Sivers I give a totally uncontrolled rendishion of the Maddness of the song to any one in range if I ever see them again if they in the few second's they are trying to escape sing a line or two my job is Done.

My wife is my biggest "critic". Since she's been with me for 36 years and is the first to hear every song I write. I get her feedback, whether I want it or not, but her initial reaction has historically been a good indicator.

I am a member of a local songwriting group and we meet monthly to share new songs and provide/receive feedback. This is helpful as a peer review, though the critique is very informal and subjective. So I sometimes self-assess my songs with checklists developed by professionals - which provides great guidance.

I use Open Mics to get a broader audience reaction to new songs and also to practice the delivery and perfect the song as I get a better feel for the flow of the lyrics and music by doing it in front of a live audience. I watch people's faces. Is the song interesting? Am I holding their attention? Can they understand the lyrics? I often change melodies and lyrics after performing them a few times to improve the flow (singability and playability).

Recording the song and listenening to it as I drive helps me identify parts that need work. Letting friends listen to the recording and soliciting feedback helps as well.

I've gone the route of paid critiques, but I find that these tend to be focused on objectives that may or may not be mine. If you are looking to write a "hit" song then a professional paid critique is appropriate but can also be a real eye-opener.

Dear Derek,

Thank you for remembering me and asking to visit your website to leave my thoughts.

For all you song writers out there, when you compose or write a song; make sure you circle around 3 to 4 chords. Let your melody be simple (easy to remember) and catchy.

Ask whoever you can for their opinion on your song, and see how

often they sing it or hum it when you're around them. The more they sing it -- the more they love it.

Keep your arrangements simple and

dynamically tight. Ideally, it's best to have musicians in your band

who know what to do and don't have to be told. They should add to your music, unless you want some specific arrangements etc.,

Take the world's most famous songs

and spend time researching it and find out for yourself, what made them what they are today.

DON'T copy other musicians, but use them as an inspiration to better your musical skills.

Your lyrics should be from your heart and write about what you

want to say to the world. Make a statement, whether people think it is bizarre or silly. WRITE IT! AND SING IT! But for heavens sake, avoid bad language and such like

negative emotions.

Take risks, cause if you don't,

you won't get anywhere. I am not a religious person, but this is true:

I get my inspiration from Jesus. He is my Lord and Savior and if

you want to do extraordinary things, JESUS is the way, the truth and the life. Get Jesus into your life, he will do awesome things for you and all who you

pray for.

Just pray this prayer and you will

experience the BEST LIFE EVER:

"Lord Jesus, I invite you into my heart anew today, and I ask forgiveness for all of my sin. I repent for all my sins and I will not sin again. Jesus, thank you for dying for my sins and for forgiving me of them through your shed blood for me on the cross.

Please take away all the sinful "old things" in my heart that defile me, and replace them with the "good things" that you desire to grow in to my life. Please wash away all the sinful crud and tendencies toward evil and replace them with a hunger and thirst for your righteousness.

I need your help, Lord God, in living this new life in Christ.

Please send your Holy Spirit afresh into my life to help me, heal me, deliver me, lead me and transform me.

In Jesus Christ I pray, Amen." Get a bible and read these verses below:

(Mark 7:21-23 & 2 Corinthians 5:17)

NOW WATCH THE CHANGE, YOU WILL NEVER BE THE SAME AGAIN.

God Bless You All,

Best Regards,

Sajjid Manuel

I am a CPA by profession. I love writing songs and playing and singing in my studio and hope to get a sonwriting contract at some point. What I do is upload my song to my website and send a link to everyone in my contacts list. That is about 300+ people. So, it is not only family and friends it includes clients many who never knew I was a musician. I ask for feedback either by email or in my guestbook. Broadjam is another avenue but the critiques are not from the most experienced musicians so they aren't much help. They usually say whether they like the song or not and don't very often provide real meaningful feedback.

When I have finished composing a song,or piece of music,I will play to a variety of my 'musician friends' who compose/write in many different genres.This way I can gauge a response,or a feeling on the song/piece.

My partner has to be my best critic,as she has a very wide taste in music and is often brutally honest when I ask her opinions.

However,as one of your bloggers suggested,this can confuse a songwriter even more so.I do feel,all musicians/composers 'Know' when they have written a good song...it's just an initial gut feeling.My favourite reaction is when someone will say to me "your song depressed me a little"I think "Bingo! I got an emotional response".The word 'depressed' does not come across as a negative for me in instances like that. My prime ambition as a composer/songwriter is to make the hairs stand up on the back of the listeners neck.If i can do that...I'm a happy man,and if it makes the hairs stand up on mine...that's even better.

By the time anyone hears one of my songs it's done. I make music because it's a form of art and I guess, expression. If someone were to offer me ways to "improve" a song it wouldn't be my true piece of work any longer. Nothing wrong with collaborating it's just not the route I take. As for feedback, when I play my songs for people and they don't leave it means they like them.

I've had a few "experts" critique my stuff and they always nitpick. They never buy an album or support an artist like me so I tend to listen to the folks who actually pay me for my music, which is just regular folks who like what they like without someone telling them to like it.

Thank you...J.C.

Thanks Derek,

for bringing up the subject. I think it is essential, considering how many work alone these days, and how few of us has a producer.

I use garageband.com - You'll never get a more honest feedback than from a musician with "blindfolds", listening to a band or artist of whom he or she know nothing, other than the chosen genre..

But I've often though we should have several changes to prove our song to this community, by improve and remix, try it in another genre and so forth, 'cause I'd like to hear the continuance of the ongoing process from demo to sale. That's entertainment for me!

Basically we never know what is going to hit. The most naive and simple songs might be recognized as genuine and 'true' by the most people, while songs we've spend hours fixing minor details on, people might not even care about.

Generally my friends - the real ones, tell me straight, and most often those are the songs which work best acoustic about the fire. I totally agree!

What about you Sivers.. guess I've only heard your music in a lousy youtube-video.. Where do I go to listen?

from Copenhagen

S i g v e <3

When I first started recording my stuff, I used to show people to hear how good it was. But, honestly people would usually just give me constructive criticism but that used to irritate me so much!!! But now getting more experience I found the importance of getting feedback before finalizing anything. What I usually do is Show people my idea first and ask them what they think of the general idea and ask if they have any suggestions, then after I start recording I will bring in my very close producer friends of mine to give me advice or a simple thumbs up. Last when I think its almost done I will show it to people who know nothing about songwriting techniques or production and ask them to tell me what they think. This usually will get me a great mix, song, sound,,,,,Well all of the above. LOL!!! But feedback is so important professional and non.

my current situation is that im basically recording these songs for myself.

I moved from my hometown in Scotland almost a year ago,to Texas

.Which of course meant that i could no longer play in any of the bands i was in,

or record with them anymore.

So i do my music when i can at home,ultimately with a view to possibly having an albums worth of great songs. If i can afford to have some pressed,

id maybe send some to CDBbay as i did with my old band

Just Another Dream.

when i upload a song to MySpace,

i send out a bulletin that i have.

If i get ONE reply or comment about it, thats a surprise.i dont know if people are too busy with their own things or whatever, but i find it extremely difficult indeed to even get some kind of opinion,good,bad or indifferent.Even getting a reply from friends i email songs to is nigh on impossible it seems,and i have no idea why.

Friends will of course generally just say they like it, and offer no further comment.

so its impossible to take anything from that anyway.

i would LOVE to have people hear,and hopefully enjoy my songs, but i just cant seem to do it. I have music on MySpace/Facebook/Soundclick/Bebo/Soinic Jive etc etc,to no avail.

and to be perfectlly honest,

its really very very disheartening indeed.

not to mention incredibly frustrating,

I don't ask for feedback on songs as such as I find the songwriting process so personal, mysterious and instinctive that I don't want to analyse it myself that much let alone get others making me over think it. What I do get feedback on is recordings/mixes of songs as that is to me a much more analytical thing that I welcome feedback on from friends, other musicians, punters that I know well enough to know they will be honest with feedback.

The most important thing i can share with other writers is to remember the song has to be the star of the moment. Songs that people sing for tryouts are most hit songs.Great songs create great artist.

Songwriting is art. If you like it then it's you. Alter it and it becomes something else...perhaps more commercial crap chasing a trend.

I will preform it live to see audience reaction to it, I will have people who I value their opinion comment on it and make the necessary changes, the most important after I did all of that I will not listen or do anything with the song for a week to two weeks and than I will listen to it again if I like it still than something is happening

I wait in line at a quicky mart and then write on a napkin. When the clerk gives me my change I then count it and see how many multiples of seven I can think of backwards till the clerk asks me whats wrong or the person behind me to kindly move so that she can check out.

That and songwriter nights with friends, but really I try to write different every time I write something new. Sometimes it comes into my head before I pull out the guitar, but normally the guitar is out and then reflection. I'm quite open about it, but it pisses some songwriters off that my songwriting is never the same twice purposefully. Not certain if its because they want to follow, or what, but it does make for interesting nights.

~Pete

If I'm co writing with someone else or even a band, it's a democratic process and everybody contributes.

But very often I work very quick when I have an idea. Sometimes it is recorded directly and finished in very short time. I love to be in the flow and trust that the music develops the best and strongest way. If I stop at that point and step back I sometimes loose the spark.



From all the comments I read I see that there are many different ways to create a song. I'd never expect anybody to do it my way, and I would never want to have do it like somebody else.

Holy posting in here.

Hey, let's everyone buy each others music.

I think we are the only ones who care anyway.

I really like this interactive format and good thought provoking ideas. Thanks Derek.

My primary feed back comes from family and other writer / musicians. If I like it, and they like it, we play it.

I don't write songs to "suceed". The artistic process stands on it's own. I'd say that 1 in 6 of my songs passes my own critique.

It's an internal evaluation that tells me when a song is good, and one that I want to own.

This is not to say that I don't try to learn from other song writers. For example I'm trying to understand / use the very effective way in which John Prine incorporates long silences in his lyric phrasing.

I usually play a new song for my husband, a pianist... I trust his judgement. He is very critical and usually points out everything he doesn't like about a song...

I believe in rewriting and perfecting songs a lot, so try to work on them. Then, if I like what I wrote I play it for my family and eventually enter it on ourstage.com to see how it would do... But also I sometimes miss the inspiration and constructive criticism that these workshops and the Berklee environment provide.

Right now I am collaborating with a friend. we bounce ideas off one another. In the past I would use collaboration sites. also Taxi forums is a good place to play for feedback.

Over the years I've learned one lesson: "listen to the judge within yourself". My most sold songs were NOT the ones that others commented on, the ones I altered because others said so, no, they were the ones I chose.

Let your heart decide what is really good and what is not. Take full responsibility for your choice and in the end there's only one winner or loser and that's you...

Just to add to my previous post, I do create alternate versions and "modernize" older songs of mine. Sometimes a song is fully born. Sometimes it evolves. Sometimes, it just needs to die. And I am my harshest critic. But I have received a lot of feedback over the years to develop that self critical sense.

generally play new songs for my wife....then, often regardless of the nature of the feedback received, i play it at a show.....i pretty much know fairly quickly how it has been received by the audience.....after that, it's up to me whether i like it or not, and sometimes, even if the feedback from the audience is discouraging, i keep playing it, because i am stubborn, and i know what i like

Balance between practicality and receptivity. If you followed up on everyone's advice you'd never finish a song. Ask for criticism and you'll get it. I've been told many times and directly by the truly accomplished: opinions are like assholes -- everyone's got one! Not to be disrespectful, and a little crass. But you must respect YOURSELF as well -- your GIFT and INSPIRATION -- so as not to eternally expose yourself to overwhelming and meaningless feedback. Just time lost.

People are different. Their hearts, brains and experiences are different. We process thought, imagery and emotions differently -- and use language accordingly. Your song is SURELY not for everybody! Impossible. Your drive will tell you whether you have something to say. Then you must nurture the skills that take you to the core of things. After all, you probably still want to hit "universals" that have a chance at touching many. And maybe earning some food for your table?

I'm good with language and lean verbose. So I've had to practice for years at grabbing that kernel of thought. I like the song form for that reason. It's limited by nature and its focus has spared me from novel-writing. I'm grateful. I can learn to say great things succinctly. Thank God! There is hope . . .

For years I took songwriting classes and willingly "subjected" myself to mass-scrutiny. It was good. I learned much and was well-received. I'm a good writer. I did NOT begrudge the lessons and am better today for it. But I'm not young now, and I'm driven and prolific as ever. This is my life's greatest gift and I intend to make good. I'm at the top of my game just about now. I no longer run around asking for opinions. I'd certainly still reflect on serious comments from a respected mentor. I have "become one" with that Great Editor and am completely amazed at this LIVING PROCESS each time I work in my studio. I write/sing/produce my original material now -- slowly, meticulously -- and the rewrites and finessing come magically with the marriage of the music, etc. I literally never know in advance exactly how my production will evolve! It's exciting. And I certainly don't lack structure or creativity. I ooze it. Yet THE PROCESS is certainly beyond who I am and I am privileged to step beyond myself for this interaction. Years of study improve my natural expression and I am left with awe at this process. It is indeed mystical, and we cooperate. Of course, I speak for myself. And mine is a strong observation.

So be honest. Have you done your homework? Have you embraced your own arrogance just to comfort-zone? We used to call it GETTING YOUR ROCKS OFF in Los Angeles songwriting classes. Just how serious an artist are you? Do you want to hone your skills, or do you just like attention? Know yourself. YOU decide how far you want to go with this. At least in dedication. Then there's exposure. Then THE PUBLIC decides, I guess. I'm still workin' on that . . . ENJOY your GIFT, and GOOD LUCK!!!

I used to be concerned with feedback, playing for my dad, my brothers, my husband.... the things I learned are: 1. It is very difficult for most people, even other musicians, to hear quite what you hear when a song is in its birthing stage and 2. The songs that have less 'obvious' appeal are often times the songs with the most personality and the stronger ability to speak to people. I can't pretend like I'm not affected by feedback because I am. To the point of paralyzing my creative process if I receive it midway through writing. So I continue to write, for nobody but myself, and when I have a "good" song, I know it, and at that point I accept all feedback and usually don't change a thing.

When I finish writing a song it begins with my satisfaction.By then I have perhaps played that songs at minimum of 25-75 times to get it where I am happy with it.(I am my biggest critique).However, I then pass this song on to my family members and then best friends to get their feedback.

Often enough some disagree with me or with each other on it being a hit.But the funny thing is a songwriter in his right mind doesn't think of writing poor material we all strive in writing that next big hit song.

I have had some good songs some have even made alittle money for me.But I'm still working hard in digging deeper within myself to find that next big hit.

Mannyman

President and CEO

RhythmQwest.com

I do not ask for feedback.

I have one creative partner and we work together. We put a lot of work into the song before I share it in public. I listen and listen to it as if someone else wrote it. If any element of the song makes me uncomfortable, it means it is not ready. When I am happy with it, then, it is ready.

The process of feedback can be detrimental, especially to new writers.

If you must have feedback, talk to another creative person whom you love and trust, who loves and respects your work and sees your potential, so that you can have a strong foundation from which to transform your work into something you like. If you ask such person, then you will need to listen and not take it personally.

It's gotta get past me, first. I'm a ruthless editor! Since I'm doing the classical thing, I show it - in virtually finished form - to successful composers and musicians of a similar mind. I next try the material out by letting various area groups perform it, before sending it out to national groups and publishers.

generally,i will wait for an acoustic show,rather than a full band show, and let the listeners know it is new. if i get positive feedback, i will usually work it into a full band show. if i don't get any feedback i either trash it or do some rewriting.

Would a painter ask for "feedback" on a recently finished painting and then add a few colors ? I see the compositions as pretty much finished once they are written . If I perform them with a group , sometimes the members will suggest alterations which can be helpful. My wife hears everything first , but she always says nice things so that isn't much help . If I like something I have written , no-one can tell me otherwise usually ..

The best experience I've had was in the BMI/Lehman Engel Musical Theatre Workshop in NYC. Songs were critiqued by peers and a moderator, many professionals, with a focus on craft.

There's a similar program in Los Angeles, Academy for New Musical Theatre.

Key for such a thing to work is that it be both supportive and critical. Also key is that the quality of the work be at a sufficient level to spur healthy competition, to inspire to impress.

For non-theater songwriting, I haven't found a comparable operation, but I'm still looking.

I realize that not everyone has the luxury of access to all of these, so I'll list as many ways as I have tried. 1) Ask song writer friends who have had chart success to critique. 2) Play the song out live a lot - get crowd reaction. 3) Submit it in contests. 4) Submit it for reviews in press and media (including local radio). 5) Study other well crafted songs and compare (will reveal "settled for a rhyme" lyrics, rushed arrangements, musical ineptitude, etc.) 6) If you feel that it requires more than one competent instrumentalist to perform and move a listener, then the song is what is lacking, not the instrumentation. 7) If you won't allow yourself to be edited for the better by those are better, then the "emperor's new clothes"... 8) Get many opinions (girlfriends/boyfriends, parents, teachers, musicians and non-musicians). 9) Never quit trying to improve the song (and write a lot of songs). 10) Co-write with good writers who can improve the song and you if they offer help.

i usually make a loop and send it thru email to several people. I conglomerate everyone's response as attune to there PC speakers. lol

I've worked for 30+ years as a producer/composer/arranger, arranged many hits and had my songs recorded by Ray Charles, Deniece Williams and others.

I teach my own course,Professional Songwriting, and group feedback is very important. Unfortunately few writers starting out have the opportunity to get the audience reaction of live work. I stress that if a person wants to become a PROFESSIONAL songwriter, personal expression should only be only one element on a long list of other priorities.

First I stress the value of detailed analysis of great songwriters work - "imitate, assimilate, innovate".

I have also developed over the years something I call my ELEVEN POINT PLAN - a specific methodology that will guarantee, if not a HIT song, a EFFECTIVE song that will get a positive listener response. The plan is designed to get over the most detrimental aspect of songwriting: the near impossibility of being OBJECTIVE. The PLAN brings the objectivity of the intellect into the room to have a chat with your emotions. This gets songwriters away from amateurish, purely intuitive processes of songwriting. Writing effective songs is no longer a 'happy accident' or a matter of waiting for a 'muse'. If this sounds unromantic I would add that my results have been very successful!

I follow the KISS(Keep It Simple Stupid) approach. As a kid I would listen to all the hits and I modeled my approach towards that. What is funny is that my producer,Leroy Miller of Smashmouth, has worked with some of those people. I always look for constructive critism and I have a great band with a good group of musicians and when I bring something to the table, we analyze it and work out some dynamics and hooks.

Here is my method:

1. I make sure the song has a good groove, wether its a ballad or rock song

2. I ask my peers what they think of it and what suggestions they have.

3. Dynamics, Dynamics, Dynamics.

I make sure the song has some catchy spots and hooks, can't live without a hook.

4. I am fortunate to have worked with some of the best in the business and I send them demos for feedback. Critism will only make you better, don't send to any YES PEOPLE.

5. Remember, don't try to do too much. Take the Neil Young method and just write the song and it will work itself out. Like my producer Leroy Miller says, "It's what you don't do, that makes it great".

The composing process is very complex; sometimes when you show work that’s not totally finished you’ll get ideas based on something that’s not quite ready. When I show my work I rather show it to people I think have enough critieria to understand and artist process to make a song or whatever creation he or she is working on, otherwise you can get really anxious of all the extra ideas people may have on your work.

Right now about the only feeback I get is from my girlfriend who is a very good musician. I'm more interested in her overall opinion in terms of the feel of the song as opposed to getting too detailed.

It has been my experience that paid (industry) critiques are helpful only in terms commercial presentation mainly keeping a basic song structure with simple, rather ordinary lyrics.

I have since dispenced seeking such critiques opting to go through a refinement in my songwriting process. I find my work getting better as a result of this.

I record a work tape, and then send it to my best fans asking for feedback. Often I send two versions of the lyrics, and ask which they like better. This is when I'm stumped between the two versions, unsure which is better.

LIFE IS FULL OF HATERS! SO PLAY THE SONG DON'T TELL ANYONE WHO THE ARTIST IS OR PRODUCER,IF THAT YOU ASK THEM AFTER THE SONG WHAT DO THINK OF THE ARRANGEMENT ANYTHING!....ASK DUMB QUESTIONS? I KNOW BECAUSE I MEET WITH THOSE JIVE,DEF JAM,BAD BOY MUSIC GUYS ALOT OF TIMES DON'T LIKE NONAMES-PRODUCERS OUT SHINING MAJOR PRODUCERS. THE SAME IS WITH YOUR PEERS,TEST YOUR MUSIC WITH KIDS THEY TELL THE TRUTH! LIL WANYE,JONAS BROTHERS.........WWW.SOL-VILLA.COM

No one is going to care as much as you do.

I was a big music fan, I bought all I could. When I ran out of things to buy, I started writing.

I think in the end I am only creating music for myself to listen to, now and in the future.

I once went through Sheila Davis' "Successful Lyric Writing." And at the end of the book, she offered a one time consultation for a fee. Best money I ever spent. I submitted two songs for her consideration. On one she told me I was fooling with my audience, and I had better come clean. At first I was a little offended. Then I decided that yes, she was right. So I re-wrote the bridge and the song "Anna On My Mind" was released on a Kansas City Songwriters' Circle anthology in 1999.

Mostly these days I perform new songs at the local songwriters' circle, videos of which are posted at Songpull.com. These may be found here http://www.songpull.com/pull/watch?group_id=29

Comments are welcome.

Jim Krause

When a friend or acquaintance comes to me and asks for an opinion of a song they have written or recorded, 95 percent of the time my response is "its a little too long".

If I really like the song I will let them know that I really liked it, but if I dislike the song for other reasons than song length, I will usually keep my mouth shut.

Why?

Because most of the songs that make a lot of money really really suck in my opinion. So if someone comes to me with a song that I think really sucks, then it has a really good chance of making tons of money and I wouldn't want them to change that song at all.

Now if the song is both too long and it really sucks, then I will tell them to shorten the song, but I won't tell them that the song sucks. Its all relative to the listeners taste whether a song is good or bad.

I like short songs, 50's and 60's pop. "Everyday" by Buddy Holly is one of my all time favorites.

Unfortunately, Don Maclean who was inspired by Buddy Holly, had his biggest hit with "American Pie". "American Pie" is one of my least favortie popular songs of all time. So if Don Maclean had come to me after he wrote "American Pie", I would have simply said "its a little long", even though I really can't stand any part of that song. And Don Maclean would have lived happily ever after with one of the biggest hits of the 70's, and I would have been slightly happier because the song would have been 15 minutes long instead of 20 mintues or whatever. You get my point?

I could use John Mayer as another example (ha ha poor John). I can't stand most of John Mayer's material, but he makes a buttload of money in the music industry. Millions to say the least. His songs are so extremely repetetive, and some people like that. So if John Mayer came to me and asked my opinion of one of his songs, I would simply say "its a little long and slightly repetetive". Than at least when I hear it on the radio its that much shorter. I would never tell John that I can't stand his songs!!!

I'm kind of picky about songs - wanting to live up to the quality of songs that inspire me. So, by the time anyone hears it, I'm done. Someone once said, "Art is not completed. It is abandoned." I subscribe to that. With the tools we have for production these days, the challenge is that we have too many options, and that we defer our abandonment of the song for too long. Also, I really have to separate the writing process from the production process - trying out many production approaches until I'm happy with the combination of song and production.

http://www.quickstopentertainment.com/category/masters-of-song-fu/

This is a wonderful songwriting forum disguised as a contest. And it's just goofy fun. It's like the Iron Chef of songwriting. Where defined Masters take on all sorts of challengers for the title of "Master of Song Fu!"

There have been many good songs written for it. But, I think anyone could learn a bit about song writing by checking out the archives and following the current competition.

As President of the Connecticut Songwriters Association (http://www.ctsongs.com), I've been involved in leading hundreds of professional critique sessions all over the U.S. Feedback, which I identify as the role of "Sounding Board" in the creative process, is essential for really fine tuning a song to achieve the result that you, the artist, are aiming for. However, not everyone knows how to effectively solicit, give, and interpret feedback, i.e how to separate the subjective from the objective, expression from communication, creativity from craft, the artistic from the commercial, and where all these things fit in to an individual artist's vision.

This unfortunately causes many artists to shy away from the process and forego the benefits it can yield. My book will devote a great deal of discussion to this issue, but for now, check out these articles dealing with several aspects of the critique process, and the roles of giver/receiver:

http://www.billpere.com/PDF/MBTI%20in%20Critiquing.pdf

http://www.billpere.com/PDF/Three%20Levels%20of%20Criique.pdf

http://www.billpere.com/PDF/Role_Call.pdf

More at http://www.billpere.com/Songwriter_Tools.htm

Sneaky bro - embedding the second question. For me - the 'can it be improved?' question is built in to the initial process - in order to keep me interested enough to complete and remember a work long enough to record/and/or perform it. The question of 'can it be improved' is past from that point on. As for a recording of a work - completely separate.

But as for 'songs' I'm off to another one. Tunes can be covered and improved (or not) and that's well and good.

If analyzing is its own department - I'll be down the hall behind the dreaming up more door.

B.

ha ha... if only songwriters could get as many critique replies to their songs as you have to your question! Nice work Derek.

Pick the people whom you appreciate their taste and what they listen to... then ask them. But there's really only one question to ask "will you press play and listen to it again...?"

Having the luxury of being a 5 piece band full of songwriters - we are our own critics. If a song can get past the five of us, there's something worth listening to.

Our workflow goes like this:

1 String together riffs

2 Structure song

3 Play song in practice space

4 Record song

5 Either back to #1 or go to #6

6 Play live

I have band mates listen to it, I play it for a few friends, but mostly I myself listen to it and turn it over in my head over and over. By playing it for other people, though, I find that I end up thinking about it and hearing it in new and different ways. Sections or lyrics that may not have stood out as being problematic often do stand out, and then I have a stronger sense for what I feel about the song and those specific sections - where there needs to be some more tweaking/polishing, etc. And if I have a friend helping to engineer the song, which I occasionally do, then his opinion is also welcomed. However, ultimately it depends on the song's purpose - if it's just a rock song (or what not) done "for the hell of it" - i.e., for my band, just for art's sake & so on - then it just comes down to my feelings about it. And if someone offers feedback then yes I will take it into consideration and decide if I agree with them or not.

However, if I'm doing a song for someone else's project - a theatrical production or short film or what have you - then the person with whom I'm working on that project will offer official feedback, of course. And then we discuss and aim at getting the song to where it needs to be to support that project in the appropriate way, while also not sacrificing its own integrity, and so on.

Hi Derek, one hell of a question. I guess I've tried all the ways you listed and stupidly paid once (which I say avoid like the plague) I now tend to put an acoustic and voice version on my home page and let people who's honest opinions I respect give me feedback. I have a couple of close mates of some 35 years that I grew up with and discovered music with. They don't fuck about and give me straight answers. Family I avoid apart from my two year old daughter who seems to have my music sussed.

By the way nice vibe here, feel free to pop over y'all.

Love and music.

Al.

To some extent I self-edit my songs because I have been writing for a number of years and crank out 20-50 songs a year for a music library. If I'm really unsure about a song I have a small circle of songwriters that will listen and give me feedback. I have tried the songwriter workshop method and have not been happy with the results.

I had more thoughts once I read all the posts from people who say "I don't show my songs to anyone until they're done! I would never do that."

For me, my songs are barfed out in what seems to be X amount of inspiration. It is what it is, and it could be a complete song, or it could be just a hook or lyric fragment.

Next comes the perspiration and vision. You can't force vision, so sometimes it takes perspiration to get to the vision. It's easy for me to get stuck in this stage, and this is where I should share the song with people. This is a step that *can* (no guarantees) be a valuable shortcut.

This is the best place for me to make changes -- I am open to them, and the music is not so set in stone that it seems like too much work to make changes.

Perhaps some people really never need feedback. I am not that way, I write best with other people in the mix.

A song has two aspects, objective (construction, consistency, etc) and subjective (style, subject matter, etc).

I only look for objective criticism and mainly from the lyric. A song is what can be put on paper, so I email the lyric to my "quality control" department which consists of professional writer friends in different states with different writing styles. I know they we give me mostly objective rather tahn subjective opinions. People nowadays don't know the difference between a song and an arrangement and a production. The rule of thumb is that if it can't be put on one or two sheets of paper it's not part of the song.

I'm an A-hole about my music. If I like it, I go with it. If no one else gets it, well...

There are many whose talent wasn't discovered until long after they'd departed the world. During their lifetime, these artists were not really appreciated. To me, that says a great deal about public opinion. Not to mention what's popular these days!

"It's all right now, I learned my lesson well; you can't please everyone, so you've got to please yourself" --Rick Nelson (no relation)

Chris Nelson

"what night sounds like"

www.soundclick.com/chrisnelsonus

www.facebook.com/chrisnelsonband

I'm on to giving advice... you need to know your major scales and their chords.

obviously ?

I run the raw acoustic form by my husband first. He usually suggests a beat and a feel (he's a drummer). Then we play it for our 14-year old daughter who is a big pop music fan and just instinctively knows what's a hit and what isn't, what hooks should be repeated, and what should be added or taken away. My next EP (due out in another week or so) has her full approval :)

My songs are fairly well finished when I write it. God deffinately gave me a gift for writinng but singing I really have to work at. I some times get a thought and thirty mimutes have a song down with the melody in tact. I know very little about music. My husband has played since he was a teenager, so he helps me work out the tune and rythem. I sing at blue grass every month in Miami, and in churches in S. Fl. but I have never tried to get songs pulished.The thought sounds exciting but I'm not a pusher. That is why I was so excited about the contest.

Thanks so much for your intrest

I'll try harder

Emma Nell Gillilan

1. Play your songs at open mics, especially the kind in NH where the audience is made up of other performers…. Meet them and ask them for honest constructive feedback.

2. Start a songwriter group in your community, gather weekly or monthly… (great incentive to write songs), have dinner, make it fun, develop trust, help each other!

I have two audiences on which I try out my songs.

First, my family. I write funny songs. That's all. If they don't laugh, it ain't funny and it goes back to the drawing board.

Second, if the family laughs, the song gets the open mic test. I take it to an open mic (or sometimes play it at a gig) and test the audience reaction. I usually have to do this two or three times to get a general idea of whether the audience likes it or not. (Note: Old people do not enjoy songs about body piercing. YOUNGER people, though...absolutely!)

In the end, if it gets laughs, it stays in the repertoire, provided I remember it and don't forget it.

I usually play the song (once I deem it "done") for my friends and family. At this point, there's a couple things I tend to cringe about that I notice just by watching their faces (turn the high's down, the low's are muddy, whatever - I can usually gauge it by their face).

Then, after they've heard it, i ask for feedback: "what'd you think? Like it? anything jump out as you? make you cringe? does it make you wanna jump/dance?"

Then, I take these notes back to my studio, and try to work at the song a bit. If i deem it too hard, or too much of a drastic change to the music to accomodate something, I either shelve it (if everyone hated it), or say "Screw it" and just go for it as is.

Also, I tend to stage-test new stuff- play it at a gig, intermingle with other things, covers, etc. If people look like they dig it, it's gold. Ship it!

Well I've been writing songs with my songwriting partner for several years now. We have two albums, and split all of our songwriting 50/50 even if the song was really 70/30. This is important because we discarded of the competitive aspect of writing which has enabled us to be really open to the others criticism.

We always bring each other what we're working on, and are frank and honest in our opinions.Neither of us are bothered because we know that the other has the songs best intentions in mind.

I think that writing with another person is great because it pushes you beyond what you would typically do, and brings another mind of ideas into the mix.

Also, outside feedback from professionals is crucial to improving. We had a TAXI membership when we released our first album, and 50% of our stuff was forwarded on. We never got a deal through it, but we got a lot of great critiques. It was easy for us to identify our problem areas because the majority of the critiques mentioned the same issues. When we wrote our next album we worked off of those critiques and had much stronger songs.

Now most of our feedback comes from fans, or music supervisors, or producers.

I don't think this "asking around" approach can be anywhere near on point. I say this for the simple reason that statistically you are asking people you have access to. Namely, friends, fans and other people who are already at your shows or know you.

I usually just create and put out records that I am happy with and the public makes it painfully clear what worked and what didn't.

An amusing anecdote, we put out a whole record and the song which garnered the most criticism from fans and friends ended up in 2 MTV shows (Real World), and pulls by far the most iTunes downloads.

If I had asked my fan base, I'd have missed the publicity generated by that song completely (maybe even dropped it from the record).

David Gilmour has said "to guess what the public wants is a fool's game".

Just create. Make yourself happy and let them choose what they like from what you create for yourself.

Derek,

this is what I meant by music as subversive activity - a great question gets me to think & evaluate what I do, & more important what I don't do enough.

thanks.

1- I download it to an mp3 and mail it to friends whose main focus is not music but who are very exposed to music in their work: a script writer, a film/tv editor, a videographer/painter; a farmer/barn & wood boat restorer;

a lawyer - to as many different locations as possible around the world.

2- I send it to my band mates in Poland , to my fiddle player who is now a radiology resident; to a radio DJ & sometimes she has time to respond ; to musicians I know in other genres than my folk .. classical quartets, flamenco, jazz, & blue grass.

3- I am in the process of learning how to put new pieces in a beta/ unmixed form onto my website just to have anyone listen to it; get as many new ears to listen as possible ! To hell with copyright - get me beyond those silly possessive feelings!

4-I put it on my iPhone and play it over the radio in my car until either I get tired of it or my passengers do or I find it has something .

5- I produce house concerts on a small stage my house; I have talked with local musicians of having a monthly night with four or so singer/songwriters performing 2 pieces each with or without an invited audience.

6-And finally,I need to push myself to go out and perform new stuff in front of anyone; I like the idea of busking; and small joints where other musicians come in, open mics and pickup nights.

What I usually do is begin with a good melody and try to work a nice chord progression around that than I develop the songs structure verse chorus bridge etc..as I’m doing this im singing gibberish with no lyric yet that usually the last thing that I develop I don’t normally go into it with an idea already in mind about what the songs going to be about I like to be surprised when its done

I record myself and listen to the song in progress a lot. When it's pretty much completed, I perform it for others and listen for remarks on interpretation, not so much form. I find people are more conservative on form than interpretation.

Thrilled that you asked this question.

Your friends and family will always bullshit you and say, "I don't know why you're not on the radio! Your songs are so great!" You can send to Taxi, pay a lot of money and maybe once in awhile get a useful critique. I would LOVE to have a site/blog/etc that would be a place where you could get honest feedback from peers...BEFORE you submitted it for "real".

I don't ask. As a creative writer, I prefer not to have collaborators or input from wannabe critics. Nobody has my creative vision, and until a song is completed, I don't even know what it's going to be like. On my current song, because it represents an image change for me, I asked a well-known producer/arranger for his opinion of the lyrics (which is all that I had written at the time). He liked them but asked, "Why?" See, that's one of the reasons why I don't play an unfinished song for anyone. In my many decades of life, I've learned that I'm NOT other people’s opinions or their dreams. Once you know who you are, it doesn't matter what other people say or think. When someone asks me “Why?” Pshaw! I don’t need a reason to do what I want to do. I don’t need to explain myself to anyone. Especially if what I want to do has never been done in the way that I am doing it. Incidentally, not looking for validation, I've had to share the lyrics and image change with three other professional friends, who love the idea. Today, I'm 'Pro Toolsing' the song. So There!

Hmmm....



My songs are usualy finished before i let anyone listen.

But i do play bits...parts of the song to friends and i ask if it sounds familiar if its no then i know i'm on to something.... if i'ts yes then i listen to whatever it is that it sounds like and i proceed from there .

After years of composing music for a different medium (live theatre), I started taking private theory lessons. This quickly evolved into a one-on-one songwriting workshop with a mentor (who soon became a good friend). 1-2 songs a week for a year presented at every lesson, no matter how raw or undeveloped. It was the most profoundly helpful step I've ever taken.

Now that I'm recording and performing on a regular basis, time and money have unfortunately precluded the workshop. Presenting songs to my band, I can tell right away if they guys aren't excited (or my own gut feeling says something's not right), so I keep whittling away until we get to the GOOD STUFF. Next comes a few trusted musician friends and a live audience. If it's still not feeling good enough or the audience reaction is tepid, then I'll ditch the song for a while (months? years?) and maybe come back to it with a fresh approach.

Overall, having an experienced, trustworthy mentor from the beginning gave me plenty of confidence and a critical ear towards my own work. I'm not sure there's a substitute for that level of trust unless it's built during personal interaction.

"I got vision up the butt..."

- School of Rock

Hi Derek,

On my last CD, which started out as all Improv, I first ran it by another solo pianist who has had a lot of experience in the genre I am in. And then I had the very good fortune of hiring a producer, Eric Tingstad (of Tingstad and Rumbel), who ended up editing my Improvs and taking the music to a higher level. I probably could have lived with the Improvs as they were, as I was very happy with the work that I did. But handing my music over to someone whose ear I highly respect, was definitely the right move. The music works so much better after editing. I would never have been able to hear the music objectively enough to edit it myself.



Peace ☮ Love ♥ & Light ☼

Louis

When I'm writing a song, I don't seek feedback until late in the recording stage, if ever.

We all have, within us, unique aesthetic sensibilities. When writing a song, I try to follow my own intuition.

Some loose parameters I use to guide me in the songwriting process are: 1) the lyrics should be able to function alone as a decent poem; 2) the lyrics should be insightful or at least express my point of view on a subject; 3)for music, sometimes I try to imagine how the song would sound if it were performed and arranged by the Beatles or some other band I admire; 4)when I'm coming up with a new musical idea I think - if the Beatles, or some other band I admire, were together today what would they have come up with. This helps me stay emotionally connected to the musical idea as it evolves.

Two years ago I started working with a group of about 50 men who enjoy praise and worship. I now run new songs past them - in part or in near-finfished form - to gauge their response. If they can't sing it or follow the melody, it goes back into the hopper for reworking. When guys choke up or stop to listen, I know I have hit them where it counts. At that point it is a keeper.

Erm, well...I get a song coming at me from all directions, melodies, lyrics, basslines, drum patterns, guitar lines, strings etc, then I go down to a mill in Manchester where musicians and friends I know hang out and start laying it all down so it isn't driving me mad anymore. I then leave it to whoever to add their imagination/musicianship/production to it. I come back a week later and there is a finished track. I look around at the beaming smiles from my friends, some of whom are musicians, some of whom are not and I think to myself, what a wonderfull world!

After I've written a song I do a cheapie demo and send it to Taxi.com for a critique. After I get a response back I've go over the suggestions with my writing partner and think about it for a while. Then I do a little re-writing. After that I'll sing it at a show and get the audience reaction. That will tell me a lot. It the audience doesn't respond too well I'll rewrite some more and send the revised version for another critique at Taxi.com and to get more feedback. I've never had to send it for more than two critiques because by then I've got it as good as it's going to get. Getting outside criticism is key. You can never trust what your best friends and family say. They always tell me it's wonderful no matter how bad it is and that's just not helpful.

I used to do a lot of play writing and was part of a writing group for five years. There's a technique to knowing what to do with the evaluations you get on your writing and it works the same with songs. But it takes time to be able to figure out what people are actually saying about your work and then figuring out how to make chances that address the comments.

I have a few well-placed "reviewers" that are very familiar with the particular genre of music I write (latin jazz/salsa). These include professional DJ's, reviewers, and "just plain folks". I also send stuff to my father, but he's last on my list ;).

When I have a new song I'm working on, I send each of them a rough copy (as an MP3) and solicit feedback. In exchange, every one of my reviewers gets a copy of my latest CD when released. I consider it small payment for the invaluable insight they provide.

Once I've got favorable reviews from everyone, then I proceed to send the song(s) out en-masse. If unfavorable, I go back and tweak and start the process over.

The last CD I completed took two years from start to finish...but I was VERY satisfied with the results, and the resulting "professional" reviews were all very favorable.

Derek,

I use a combination of sources to get feedback on new songs.

1-My wife is ruthless-if I can't keep her attention or if something strikes her as illogical or strange, she'll let me know.

2-Trusted songwriters I know personally. I play it for them without the aid of a lyric sheet, then hand them the lyric sheet afterwards to jog their memory about things they may have misunderstood or that they thought could be strengthened.

3-I pass out audience response cards with each song listed by name at performances where it is appropriate and ask for specific feedback on each song. This of course implies that you know in advance the names and order of songs you are going to perform.

Clive Romney

Ask your self few questions

1st why you writing a song? If you writing for a reason!

Is it your own fresh original idea?

Is this idea trigger from listening other song/music track?

--------------------------------------------------------------

By talking we can communicate information "MUSIC is for communicating emotions" therefore it can be major or minor very much depends on your feeling and emotion at the time of writing a song so don’t be precondition

I would leave all samples and ready made virtual instruments and start from scratch.

Good luck and best wishes, I am sure unique as you are would be able to contribute new sound to our music world.

Time. I hate writing projects with a deadline. Usually I've got 3 or 4 ready to go, then I wrestle with 3 or 4, then I just fill space. Oddly enough some of the best stuff is the space filler.

But as for feedback, nobody else can tell you what you are trying to say. I've asked some great songwriters (guys with gold records) how many times they change the lyrics before they're ready to record it, and as expected, they all said, right up to the last take.

I think Bowie is the only one I know that never goes into the studio until he's finished writing. He says he never writes in the studio.

Personally, I feel that songs come together in the studio. And I have a high standard writing lyrics. I laugh at people that write lyrics that I can predict. Phone/Stone Trick/stick yukkkkkkk

Try rhyming Arnold Schwarzenegger.

Hey Derek:

SongU.com has a very affordable way to get pro song feedback!

~Julie

www.GetMusicSuccess.com

I am a Christian songwriter, so the most important thing for me is writing a song that is both current-marketable and on track with Scripture. I usually try to keep new songs pretty close and to the nest. My wife is always the first to hear (and my toughest critic. I'm not seeking praise, but I know if it passes her ears it may be worth playing for others.

I am a member of Taxi - but I have won song contests with songs they didn't like...so I now just go with my own instincts.

I go to open mic's in my area and play the new songs. You get more of a mixed audience of other musicians and general listeners. And since it's not a full gig (you'd likely only be playing a couple of songs), the audience isn't overwhelmed so they can really zero in on the songs.

We're usually our own worst critics.

We'll play the heck out of a song. try it out in every (reasonably) re-arranged form, including different instruments (acoustic instead of electric, organ instead of piano, etc) and usually it'll click at some point and if we all (4 of us) feel good about it, then great. if not, we'll shelf it for a while a try it again later.

Hi, Derek!

There is a great organization in Baltimore that I have been a part of for 10 years called The Baltimore Songwriters Association. http://baltimoresongwriters.org/

They have song critiques and advanced song critiques every month. I have found these sessions to be invaluable and bring many new songs to the group. There are guidelines (you have to say something positive before you say something negative, etc.), so mostly the feedback I get is thoughtful. (Even if it's not it's always good to hear!)

The BSA has been going strong for over 10 years and hosts open mics, juried compilation CDs, as well as showcases featuring local songwriters. I'm on the bill for next month, and the show will be broadcast live on the internet radio station, "Umbrella Radio." http://www.umbrellaradio.org/radio/Welcome.html

Very cool scene we have here in B-more! :)

thanks for all you do,

much love,

sahffi

I have had the most success with friends & acquaintances in what we call a "song circle". 5-6 of us will meet at someone's houe for a couple hours once or twice per month. Everbody plays a "baby" song for critique. Of course, you have to have trust. And you have to learn how to receive feedback.

I have learned over the years that I don't have to apply everbody's feedback. In fact, usually nobody expects me to. I've also learned that I can try a suggested new direction for a song, then discard it if it goes off the tracks. I also do not have to hold every comment in equal regard. I consider the source carefully. For instance: The blues writer in my group may poo-poo my folk song. That's OK, it's not his bag, baby!

The feedback process we use is called the "stars & wishes" formula which says: give three things you like *before* diving into assessment of the weak spots of a particular song. That way It's always honest, just more palatable for the songwriter being critiqued.

How does the internet fit into all of this? I'm not sure that with e-mail it would work as well. Song circles I have been part of have been quasi-successful with one group member listening in on skype. A live video feed might be cool.

But overall the "in-person" song circle is the best way for me to get feedback. I think you need that tone of voice and body language before, during, and after the performance to be able to understand feedback comments appropriately.

Just my two cents...

In Music,

Jamie Purnell

I've found that most people, outside of the music industry, can't really judge a song in it's raw form, such as a guitar/vocal demo. So I don't play my new songs for anyone until I have a finished, properly recorded product, with full instrumentation.

Knowing every song I write is not going to be great, I still don't rely on outside input, but rather trust my own "gut" instinct. The only opinions I truly value are from the musicians that helped in the recording. When I've finished a batch of songs, I try to throw out the stinkers, and stick with the ones that I feel good about. Bubba D. Liverance

Hi Derek,

This question recently came up in the forum at FAWM. (February Album Writing Month) There is a comment field for participants to give immediate feedback on the lyrics and the demo (if there is one). There's even a little reminder near the comment field to "Be honest but respectful with feedback".

There are two (or more) schools of thought on this. One says to just comment on the songs that you like and don't say anything to those that might not be up to a certain level. The other is to be brutal and tell them exactly whats wrong with it. Most folks fall in the middle and give 'gentle' constructive critique based on the experience level of the songwriter.

There's no right or wrong way to do it. Some of the songwriters participating will specify in the 'liner notes' that they'd welcome complete honesty.

For my own personal writing, I will play it until I'm comfortable with it and then ask my wife and immediate family. Then I'll play it out a few time and get a bead on audience reaction on if it's a keeper.

Usually I'll get together with friends to play a session and try out new tunes with them. Or I'll ask my husband, one of the most brutally honest people I know.

Sometimes I'll write a tune just before going to a gig, and since my band can sightread pretty much anything, we'll tell the audience that we have something brand new and then launch into it. Even if it is a train wreck, the audience has a great time seeing us plow our way through a new tune, and we have a great time working it out on stage.(I guess this probably works better with jazz than with pop, but hey, you never know...)

Carnal rooterbagger?

RE: What do you do for feedback on a new song you're writing?

I used to play in bands and didn't care if anyone liked the songs or not. We just rocked out and had fun. And if the band has fun, everyone else has fun.

But, once I became a solo acoustic performing/singer/songwriter, I attended music expos, festivals, and conferences. I learned everything I could learn, like a sponge I absorbed it all. At the beginning of my solo adventure I was naive and used companies like Sonicbids, spending money with no results. NEVER again! Couldn't get any action. I marketed to nationwide radio with tiny success. I sought out everyone I could find to review my music, with tiny success. I networked like crazy on Myspace, to the world, and thats when I noticed I had fans all around the world who loved my music. That helped me believe in myself because I struck an international nerve, I had listeners around the world, how cool is that?!

The best thing that has helped me, was going to Master Sessions and listening to the great minds behind the songs I grew up loving. The epiphany was understanding that most of the great artist (performing/singer/songwriters) were rejected by everyone and in that process it made them believe in the music they write and to believe in themselves.

I do remember going to the Durango Songwriters festival for the 2nd time and sitting in a pitch session with Marshall Altman (producer of Matt Nathanson, Marc Brousard, Kate Voegle) and I was the 2nd to last critique. I heard these amazing productions and I was scared. Marshall was pickin-em apart like they were all mediocre and here I recorded a song in my bedroom. When he played my song, he said "this is a GREAT song","there nothing for me to tell you" then he grabbed his guitar and started playing and singing the song as the whole class started singing along. That scared the daylights out of me, I didnt know what was going on. I guess what Im trying to say, sometimes when you get someone in the business that gives you great feedback, it surely can light a fire under your butt. Those moments happen occasionally at pitch sessions. Attending festivals is a good thing early on in your career if you can afford them. But the end result is when someone tells you "thats a Great Song", they are just reaffirming probably what you already know.

So, once you believe in yourself and your music, you wont ever care about a critique anymore. Failure is wanting money for your art. Art is not about money. Success is touching someone's heart, even if its only one. What more would you ever need...

Love and Peace

I have good intuition about my songs and I always know, for example, when they're NOT finished -- tha means when they're no good.

I play them for my father. He's very tough with lyrics and he'll tell me.

I sing them for my mother. If she cries, I've nailed another one.

Then I sing them for the public, if they cry I know I have a hit.

The important thing is to know yourself if the song is any good. And that comes from practice and also from reading Sheila Davis.

I do not solicit advice on songs. If I cannot figure it out or I'm stuck I just wait. There are some god-awful hit songs written by the "best in the industry". If you are honest, you know what's good and what's not. Remember, because it's selling doesn't mean it's good. I mean, think how many Big Macs are sold every year. Stick to your guns and be real. It's all you've really got.

Barn-owl carpetbagger?

When I review a cd, I like to involve everyone that has supported my music. What I do before I meet with these people is write down questions and notes on possibly how the song could be better. If your peers hear your song and agree with what you think, then go back to the lab and fix it up.

Hi D,

Good question. When I make new music I post it to Facebook, and "Share" it with a select group of my friends. Anyone linked to my profile can listen to the audio if they look for it, but this select group will give me their feedback. I usually choose people who are going to give some constructive criticism, and a few people who I want to keep in touch with career wise, and a few people that I'm just going to get a complement whatever I do, but the intelligent criticisms are golden.

Home-brew sneaker-legger!

i put it on a record and start doing it at shows.

i don't really look for any comment on it one way or the other. i work on it till i like it and there you go. in my way of looking at things if i work on something for a few weeks, it's not going to do me much good to have someone listen for eight bars and start making comments because they don't know what it is i'm building. that's kind of what's dicey about criticism of art. if you just look at the result, how can you judge what it is without talking to the artist about it. maybe he was doing something that the critic isn't catching. why focus group and change it because people love to comment on stuff and change it? i'd say, stick with the art and keep writing. i ignore all that stuff.

Darn old table-begger!

I try to let as few people as possible have influence on me when I am writing a song. I don't mean I don't have influences. Obviously everything I have ever heard, seen, or experienced has influenced me.

But I consider a song to be a little piece of art and I want it to be as much straight from the gut as possible.

When I've finished a song, it is pretty much finished for good. But, I take it to a stage somewhere, just before it's finished - just before it feels like it's been cemented - and I will play it for an audience. I don't look for audience reaction as much as I listen to the song in this new environment and I try to see how it flows. Lots of times in these situations, little nuances will suggest themselves to me. Maybe, I change a word here or there, or the bridge gets a new dynamic. These changes are just based on the difference of a song bouncing around in my living room verses floating out to a crowd.

When I finish writing a song, I usually have the arrangement already worked out as well, but if it's a song for my band then I'm totally open to ideas from the others.

That said, I LOVE LOVE LOVE, making suggestions to other people when they are writing songs. Sometimes, they even listen to me.

Suckers.

I use a MAC, I turn on a track,

wooo poetry!

Its my reliable work horse that I can count on anytime to record a basic idea of what the spark was.

The words or the melody.

Then I put it to a feel.

Songs are secret for me till I release them.

No one has a say.

And I don't ask!

If they did I'd honestly feel obliged to give them the credit for part of it.

My art, my thoughts, and my melodies.

Some say I need a producer....what I'd likely need is money to pay someone to do what I aught to be able to do myself(as an artist)

Everything doesn't always need to be perfect. Just perfectly true and as pure you as possible.

Then you really are what you are selling, however humble the pkg. Not a room full of paid talent and machines.

Co writing is a different entity obviously.

As is being in a co op (band)

In the early days folks would suggest

"why don't you write one like so and so" who is popular at the time but to me this is copy cat mainstream for the wanna bees.

Or for money?

There's so much of that, in todays music.

Personally I'm happy to be independent from outside forces.

I try to just be me. Even if its unpopular or considered not in demand or what ever. All the better to be left alone to just be true to my art.

I

Hope this helps someone find {their} way.

TONES™

Derek,

If I like my new song,I usually run it by my beautiful wife first, because Im too cheap these days to go to all the neat places of audition, like song writers' groups, barbeque houses, and ladies' clubs.

If my wife likes it (She is a masters in English.), then I run it by my band. If they like it, that's when we play it in public. If the public likes it, then I get to sell CDs. That seems to be the bottom line for this song writer.

Blessings, and soldier on,

Bob Blackshear

We play new songs at shows and make changes based on the audience reactions. It's the ultimate test market. If the energy in the room dies when we play the new song we know we need to keep working at it.

Good, constructive critique is not always easy to get. There are some other writers I may discuss songs and songwriting with, but mostly it's the response from fans and friends that give some indication. I'm an acoustic singer/guitarist often performing solo or with a small band, and what's important to me is to catch an interest and hold the attention, have someone listening to my voice and the words throughout.

Listening to others' songs and reflecting upon if and why they work for you as a listener can be a good way to learn to look at your own work as your own critic. Workshops etc may be good to learn the tools for analysing, how to dissect a set of lyrics, but personally I think you should be aware of the risk of getting too mainstream. What the broad majority seems to like may not be what you're aiming for. Doing everything by the songwriters' schoolbook may put you in danger of becoming redundant. Personality and originality is everything, probably more today than ever. Listen to people who seem to understand what you're doing, who seem to be the natural audience for your material.

I have some songwriting friends that know me well and give good feedback. This can be done in many ways, like over internet forums. I also do FAWM (www.fawm.org) every year.

Hank Williams would ask everybody - even non-musicians. This worked well for him. And I have been to a couple of song circles where I have gotten some good suggestions. But I see music as time travel. It is a CONSTANT push to move from the moment of execution to the instant of perception. I believe MOST of the songwriters I admire and seek to emulate have reached a point where they know that MUCH of their own magic - greatness as artists - lies in the utter conviction of the execution of that moment. The opinion of someone NOT inside the emotional source from which the beauty originated will, in all likelihood NOT add anything - and may actually detract from the result. What if someone told Neil Young he should lower the key of his songs so he wouldn't have to sing in that nasal falsetto? Picture an unknown Tom Waits on American Idol. Feedback is good - up to a point. That point is realizing there is an artist you are meant to be, and you need to give yourself over to TRUSTING the all-encompassing spirit of who that artist is. When we reach that state of self-confidence in our music we won't need the validation of someone w/ a different agenda. The best songs (to my ears) come from someone who has learned to connect their inner spirit w/ the whole of the universe and the songs they make vibrate w/ THAT energy. Am I there yet? Nope. But in seeking to connect what is best and unique about my music w/ the philosophies of great artists who always stayed true to their vision - and who I'm sure don't ask for much feedback anymore - I'm on my way to being the artist I'm meant to be. Hank Williams was amazing as well.

For me what works is to talk about the song topics in conversations aside from letting people hear just the plain music before vocals added... if that helps.

I play my new stuff for the general public and my friends & never really get constructive analyses at all. It seems like my stuff is largely misunderstood and I just force it out there. It did not matter - I was mainly pissed at the majority of voters all during the Bush years! I was out to shock mthrfckers anyway! There was no way my stuff was going to get signed or anything. But these days there are a few rewards for sticking it out back then. It just depends on whether you are going for mass appeal or a more ANTI-POP approach.

I usually post it online and I have a certain website I look at for feedback. They are really mean spirited individuals who listen to my music, and so if I get any love there whatsoever, I see that as positive...haha!

The songs I have written in past ten years have been for recordings by two different singers using mostly the same backing musicians in the studio. I create a scratch track with another musician and get his feedback and more often than not, the song undergoes some change at that point, at least a change in how I had it arranged. Then, when the singer hears it, it is usually accepted or rejected with few, if any other changes. During rehearsal, the other musicians may suggest minor changes, again, usually just in how it is arranged or the rhythm or tempo. Their ideas for lyric changes are almost always bad and I usually ignore those suggestions. Once we get to the studio, the producer, singer and other musicians give their input after hearing a more or less final version and the songs that everyone agrees are best for the project are accepted and the others not used for the album. I often rework the rejections, sometimes using as little as a couple lines of the lyric for another song. The rejections are kept in my notebooks along with other song ideas and unfinished songs.

It depends what your aim is. Are you trying to please everyone? Anyone? Are you a lone warrior passionately holding fast to your artistic integrity or are you gunning for the middle in a desperate fit of mediocrity?

For myself, when I ask for feedback I've probably pretty much finished and I'm trying to gauge reaction more than glean suggestions. I might act on criticism like "the intro is to long" or the guitar sound is really annoying" but really, I'm not trying to write songs by committee - it's my work and you either like it or you don't.

Having said that, like others I've had really valuable feedback on garageband.com

Even if you don't intend to change a damn thing about your song it's interesting to hear what other people like and dislike about it. You get these interesting demographic quirks, for example you might post a song that Norwegians just love and everyone else hates.

That kind of info is way more meaningful to me than "you should repeat the chorus at the end to make it up to 3 minutes".

I sent an email to CDBaby after someone made the first purchase of some music, I wanted to thank them.

The reply was something to the extent, 'great, we like to know that everything is working'

huh ?

that is like not reassuring at all

(...fabled borscht-baker)

I use a few close friends for feedback and always welcome constructive criticism.

Music being so subjective it's hard to distance yourself as a writer/composer to a listener on your own music in order to have an objective opinion.

What I like to do before I invite others for a listen is to walk away from it for a while and then come back to it. If the song still evokes an emotion with a clear lyrical message, it gives me the confidence that I have captured the essence of the song.

I think that in the end any piece of music is subjective. Also, I've had the experience of having friends of different tastesand expertise including musicians and dancers listen to my rough mixes. I usually filter out the criticism that stems from the roughness of the mix -- i.e. I try not to get irritated by those comments and yet engage the deeper comments.. I think being honest to oneself is key to making good music but also these kinds of trial exercises give us the chance to gauge ourselves in terms being in touch with the society we're living in.. are we reflecting a message that resonates with people or is it about a personal journey?

Check out my "Message" song/video on YouTube ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mMWiH_dlAeg

The best feedback is almost always audience response at a show. Sprinkle a new original in between a couple standard covers. If there's no "letdown" in the momentum of the set, that's a good sign. If the original garners some applause, even better. If the surrounding covers DON'T garner applause, better still.

You can often even tell the weak points in a new song by closely watching people's reactions. Is there a point in the song where they seemingly lose interest and/or look away? THERE is your problem spot.

The only other method to get true feedback is to play it for a professional whose judgement you fully trust. But I'll take 5 "auditions" at a gig over 1 professional's opinion any day of the week.

The absolute WORST judge is your family. In most cases they will simply not be able to be objective.

There is no substitute for trotting the song out into the real world. If it resonates with me... meaning I come back to it... remember it... want to play it... Then I'll play it for friends, family, other musicians, and at gigs. I know one mistake I've made is record songs before they've had a chance to live and breath... as in... playing them live... with different arrangements... you tend to find out the lasting power and core of what makes the song... sometimes lyrics fall away as un-necessary and you realize that only a couple of verses were needed and the chorus's really could all be the same. OK, that's enough for now. Derek, thanks for doing this...

i put it on myspace or youtube and see what kind of response it gets...there's way too many songwriters.

After I write a piece of music, I put it away for a few weeks or months. When I come back to the music, I almost always find things that need to be refined, so I make changes in those places. This process is repeated until I can no longer hear the need for change. At this point, I feel the music is ready to be heard by others. Hopefully, it will be appreciated, but if not, I won't make any more changes.

When we perform we solicit feedback as well as friends.

bob

Oh, on the "Arnold Schwarzenegger" rhyme, I like it when people choose another syllable to rhyme than the last - e.g. don't even try to rhyme the "egger", rhyme the "oldschwarz" instead.

Eminem is a master of this trick.

The one thing that never fails is playing a new song at a show. I had a song I was convinced was a hit. Played it live 3 times, and received a lackluster response. That says it all. If hundreds of people in a club don't like it, chances are millions of people around the world won't like it either.

here's a good description of how I write a song. Feedback? I'm my hardest critic! If the song passes the truck test, it's probably a good one:

http://latejoysblog.blogspot.com/2008/08/how-i-wrote-song-bloody-little-numbers.html

I usually turn to pros if I think I have a great song. I ask for suggestions to improve the song. Specific: Does the chorus or hook works for them too? Any words that sounds bad? Suggest synonyms! How does the variations in the energy of the song works? Suggest improvements. How about intrumentation? Will less be more? Has the song an exciting dynamic structure? What do they think will improve that? Do they get any other ideas? New or altered lyric lines? Any ideas about artist or group to perform the song?

Had a nightmare about Arnold Schwarzenegger,

spent the next week on life support in the

endless arms of Marigold Moonraker,

riding in her new gold Porsche

It is a fairly intimate process, and process is perhaps not the most adequate word because it suggests some kind of method.

I like to take things to an almost final stage before showing them to other people. There's some people around to whom I look for feedback but I'd rather not let them know themselves how important that is. It is very often people who do not care much for what I do and who have totally different tastes than those of mine. Very rarely they are musicians.

Also, it is not much about what is told but how it feels to share a listen. To do it with the type of stuff I do can turn out to be quite embarassing. It is not good time music and it is all about to translate a very personnal take on aesthetical issues. Both words and music should convey a "texture", a different type of thickness in the air.

Probably the best way of checking things is to perceive how collaborators react. Nowadays, with the available technology, it is tempting to write songs alone, to play almost all instruments, not allowing external influences. Here, even if arrangements are laid, I'd rather give them to someone else who can make something out of them than to work solely on my own. Same with producing/mixing/mastering stages. At least on the technical level you may only learn from the experience.

Finally, as important as feedback may be, it is fundamental to not allow it to stand on the way. Not if you somehow know what you want. Not when you are somehow lost inside it (it is part of this craft). Especially not if you know that what you're doing is NOT supposed to be ruled by market laws.

I don't know of anything on the internet. Basically I put it out to friends. I've been a member of Taxi for several years but have some problems with them. Although,I will say that much of my writing improvements have come from Taxi suggestions.I know there are some music organizations that will preview songs but I haven't researched that option.

Traditional marketing says, "Get feedback from your test market," but I'm weird because I just let the public decide with their wallets. Basically, I write from the heart, and I write what I want. I don't want to sound like a clone of someone else. Ironically, though, I've been dubbed "The American Enya," so go figure!

I sometimes play a completed song for someone and not tell them it's mine. If they like it they almost always say isn't that a so and so song or didn't that band do that number. I've got some really honest reactions.

I worked for Tree publishing which is now Sony/ATV as a songplugger and writer back in the 80's. The one thing that was lacking for the up and coming writers was a "live" experience where they were requirred to perform their songs in a live setting. Now as a singer/songwriter it's the best way for me to see how the audience reacts to my songs.

That's funny question for me... because I stop writing songs with word around 10 years ago. My English when I compare it with my Russian is not good at all... But I still write songs all the time. Just with no words - music will say everything I wanted to say with words. I really don't care who thinks what about my songs. But I like to play them. I would play new song for my family and friends, I don't want their opinion, but when I do it I can feel music in different way than I'm just with myself. Then if it is appropriate I pay this music at my gigs with the full loud sound and then I have another feeling of music. Sometimes it lead me to some changes, but in general I rely on my feelings, not somebody else. In the past I was a member of different songwriters clubs, and we had a sessions with opinions, discussions etc, - lots of fun! I would love to recreate FUN of it! But not critique... Yeah! If we want to improve something - we should LOVE THE WAY HOW to do it. Process, communications. (not "result oriented" process - usually will lead you nowhere.

Anyway that is what I think and it is good for me and maybe useless for somebody else.

Good luck everybody!

Hi Derek, I've put a few tunes on www.garageband.com. I prefer to play songs live and see if the audience connects. I also like to bring the song into practice with the band; if they begin finding parts and playing along, I'll keep it. If they ignore it, I figure it doesn't grab them so I take it back and rework it until I get a better reaction.

When I play a song for anyone else, it is already finished in the sense that it is a playable song that I would perform in front of an audience. If someone has a comment I listen, and I have occasionally followed someone else's advice to alter a lyric or change the order of verses.

I never ask anyone's opinion or seek advice unless there is a specific question that I am unsure of. That happens, but not often.

As far as showing a work in progress to someone goes, remember the old adage: Never show unfinished work to a fool.

Why to ask anybody to comment? My pieces are to be different from any other already made, and people are thirsty to listen new music. The common ones, we can find on radio!

In case a piece has weak technical points, professional musicians will complain anyway.

I live in Chicago and have gone to the Old Town School of Folk Music for formal feedback. I decided to take private songwriting lessons for the specific purpose of having my music critiqued. I worked really hard and feel my songs are better for it. Other Chicago songwriters I know have taken group critique classes at the OTS and have found that to be beneficial.

Never stopping, indeed the secret.

I use Garageband.com and get reviews from around the world. To be able to put song on the site, you have to review anonymous songs. Your review is also review by other members. We are always very surprised to see which songs make it to the top of the ratings. Also, most of the reviews are by other musicians/songwriters. Check out what I mean...

http://www.garageband.com/artist/shift_7

http://www.garageband.com/artist/tlg_project

I generally would NOT showcase a

song I am working on until I am comfortable it is legally protected.

I don't record without first copyrighting.

Therefore , my work is done in isolation but I do play things for

my students some time that I'm working on.

Feedback occurs after publication

for me. The actual creation process for me is bliss and I care little if others like or don't like what I do, what's important is did I create original art I am

happy with or not.

Other people's opinions may not be valid indicators of truth , since they may or may not be listening

subjectively to what you create. Perhaps they may judge you on the inferiority and lack of their own creativity . Truth still shines -

if you are creating art and are a good writer it will prevail.

If your work is really superior , your peers may in fact react negatively to your work out of their own insecurity and lack

of ingenuity.

Your ego can destroy your spiritual connection to the sublime powers that help your create. The act of creation to me is spiritual, I am humble, and realize I am part of a universal flow in time and space. Our lives are grains of sands in this ocean and clinging to your ego is an illusion and lie. Free your self from ego , and creative bliss is yours.

When my song and/or art is to be born, only then will it be ready for popular consumption. You can feel it in your bones....I have never taken my songs outside for someone to critique. They do not know what original source has brought the song to life for me. Everyone has a bias, if it's not theirs, then it's not going to be yours. When songs are in the incubator of development, only God knows where it’s going to end up. Whenever the song is now to get out of its incubator, I will take it to my studio for recording and after it's well crafted, and ready for the public, then I will I allow others to listen to it. By then the baby is born and no one can kill it [i.e., the vision from which came the song idea].

I go straight to the most critical, musically-educated, no BS person I know.

It has taken years for me to find this guy. He's different because he doesn't care if his opinion hurts my feelings or not.

90% of the material I present to him is criticized to one degree or another. The other 10% is judged less harshly, but he will say something like, "I would like to hear some guitar riff in this section." etc.

This guy opens my eyes to a lot of things I invariably overlook in the heat of giving birth to my latest and cutest new "baby".

Do I incorporate ALL of his feedback and immediately go back to the drawing board?

Nope.

Instead, I leave his house feeling a touch deflated, yet energized to know my abilities as a songwriter are proven and I've got it all over him in the overall scheme of things.

Rather, "my critic" is a sounding board that represents the general, cd-buying, downloading public. After all, why write something for an audience of 1?

Bottom line, if my critic doesn't connect with what I'm trying to universally communicate, then he's probably right most of the time.

When I do a new song, my family and good friends are the first to hear it. I put the new song on cd or bring them in my studio for a listen.

Later on in the process when I'm finished with lyrics (if there are some) and the production is well advanced, I like to play it in parties and that..in between other music..without notice and I wait..will there be comments or will it go unnoticed..

Since I write, mix, produce, sing and does the mastering, in order to achieve objectivity, I do listen to my work a lot, in many places with many different people having different musical tastes.

If I like it, that's the sole reason for working on a new song and I consider that's good enough!

The feedback are little bells to keep the production process objective and solidly anchored in

achieving the best quality I can.

Marcomé

http://Marcome.com

I probably shouldn't reply but--since we never work from charts and are completely improvisational jazz/fusion and lyrics, if any, are added when they work with what's happening, we don't have to deal with the song writing process. We do record our sessions though and work over the results till we have listenable "songs" of varying length and complexity. We often play CDs of these pieces for friends and other musicians and use their comments to further work over the music before we issue the CD. Sometimes we record live performances and with just a little remixing, put them on CDs and sell them pretty much as is. It just depends on the music and where and how it was recorded. We never play a song more than once and our recordings are the only proof they ever existed.

Most of my songs are genre-specific, or I have another artist in mind when I write the song, and imagine them doing a version of it. Its just a technique I learnt while working for a publisher here many years ago.I will run new songs past the band members, my partner who has a well-educated ear, and a writing buddy who I have been working with for years. No-one is above criticism, nor should they be if they are serious about a 'persuit of excellence' in their songs. I well remember the story of McCartney turning up at Lennons place wth 'yesterday', and asking John "have you heard this before somewhere???" He had the strength of character to ask the question! Cheers, RW.

I send it to some of my friends in the online radio world. They are good about giving me feed back.Like my title track "Auburdeen" from my upcoming CD. I first sent it out to the pirate radio network and it became the most requested song for two weeks in a row on one of the stations.

It is always good to get feedback from other people who won’t try to spare you but to be honest. But when all is said and done the writer will have to make the last call. Whether to change and improve the song according to the critics or to leave it the way it was. A good song will have a catchy hook to the song that you can walk away humming whether you know the words or not but the melody will keep on lingering in your mind. This may be even for the people who hear the song for the first time. Also songs which are written and delivered from the heart tend to be the best songs. Thanks Derek for keeping us going...

My experience in the industry has taught me that the best feedback you'll ever get is from the artists or songwriters who are where you'd like to be. You'll always get better advice from someone who has some real skins on the wall. They don't have to be famous and are more accessable than you might think. Try to put yourself in their path. Work in recording studios, work for a record company - hey go play for your local church especially those that do contemporary services. You can't imagine the talent and experience some of those good church-going folks have. Ask lots of questions and listen to those answers - even if they're painful. The only caution I would give you is to never take any advice that tells you to be vague about what you're trying to say. Some people think they're helping you by trying to get you to be more relatable. The truth is, mean what you say and say what you mean. Of course, look for the best way to convey your message or story. But don't be vague. People want to hear songs they can relate to. When you're too vague - no one will know what you're trying to say.

Len

Hi Derek,

For feedback (1)I take a tape to a Connecticut Songwriters Association Meeting for the monthly critique session (2) I have submitted songs to NSAI for monthly critique and (3) I post the song on Garageband.com for listeners to comment.

The best thing I've done is to whip out the new number at a live show WITHOUT announcing that it's new or original. As for intimate revelations of new material, choose your listeners carefully--other songwriters, if possible. But never in workshops. I HATE songwriter workshops. They're exercizes in navel-gazing, poorly moderated for the most part and usually involve exposing your stuff to people who'll never get beyond a workshop as a venue, and they're gonna take their frustrations out on you.

It is always good to get feedback from other people who won’t try to spare you but to be honest. But when all is said and done the writer will have to make the last call. Whether to change and improve the song according to the critics or to leave it the way it was. A good song will have a catchy hook to the song that you can walk away humming whether you know the words or not but the melody will keep on lingering in your mind. This may be even for the people who hear the song for the first time. Also songs which are written and delivered from the heart tend to be the best songs. Thanks Derek for keeping us going…

I belong to Taxi and Tunesmith. That's usually the first place I go when I think it's pretty close. Of course I expect a brutal critique; I wanna be a better songwriter right? I'll take bits and pieces of advice and re-write til I think it's better and start all over. SOmetimes I'll scrap the song, sometimes I'll just release it on my own CD! Haha. When you're the artist you can write your own ticket. LOL!

I ask my wife, who is very honest and hard on my stuff.

I send out to my website list, and occasionally get nice comments.

And I constantly beat myself over the head with a loaf of bread because I'm not good enough, so I'll get better.

Hi Derek!

I guess I have my own critque team with a 3 step plan. My kids range in age from 9-14. Step 1: I've learned to put my music to the test by playing a new song in private in another room and if the kids start pouring in then I know I've got something that has caught their attention. They are quite honest and my 14 year old has had some great pointers! Step 2: Then I watch and listen for the next hour to see if any of them are humming, or singing a line from my song. If they do, then I know I have a catchy line. Step 3: The real test comes later at night with my husband. If he's laying in bed trying to get to sleep but can't because he's got one of my chorus' running through his head I know I'm finished. LOL

It really depends on why the song was written. If it contains something that you feel needed to get outside of you, and you feel you've done that successfully, then there is no need for feedback.

If it was written specifically for a commercial,then you will get feedback from everyone, whether you want it or not.

The purpose of most songs falls somewhere in between these two extremes. Your approach should reflect that. If what you're writing needs to reach and be understood by others, then you have to take that into account. You need to walk the line between artistic self-absorption ("I wrote this so it must be great") and crass commercialism ("Let's write about depression - kids like that.")

The main - the only - reason songs should exist is to make people feel or realize something. And that can range from "I feel good" to "That changed my life." Any criticism or feedback that helps you achieve those goals is good. Any that squeezes the life out of a song for the sake of an intellectual musical exercise, is bad.

Songs can be like butterflies; living things that move about, constantly changing direction. Good feedback helps you build a butterfly garden. Bad feedback helps you pin them down.

I pay VERY close attention to the reviews I receive over at Taxi.com. When I'm in the process of writing/recording a song I'll use the custom critique feature for $20. It's very IN DEPTH and helps you identify ways to improve your song. I'd like to start using it 2-3 times per song (twice while in the writing/recording process and once on the final mix/production). It's incredibly helpful AND it gives you a better chance of having your songs FORWARDED. Taxi rules.

I am a producer I dont write songs, but I do need feed back on my music.

So my aproach is more on uploading songs, on my website and getting feed back.

Do I like it-Yes?

What could I add to it (Mid 8/bridge/key change/weird noises/backing vox)?

2 WEEKS LATER-do I like it?

JOB DONE!!!!!

(SOMETIMES IF no-one LIKES IT-IT'S A GROWER

I often record new songs-in-the-works on a little recorder and listen back...then I get ideas...it's good to get good feedback...and listen to great songs...things like pre-choruses are good...the recording process is often half-writing/editing too..

I test my songs out three ways:

(1) I chart them out, take them to the gig, and have my band play them. Then I get the band's feedback and I talk to audience members (fans) about the new song;

(2) I have a 16 year-old son, who is both a very dedicated musician (in a different genre altogether from me) and the most honest person I have ever known. I play it for him, and I get an honest and critical opinion.

(3)I record the tune in a studio. If I can stand to listen to it, after putting hours of work into recording it and getting it ready for listening, then I know the song is good.

But as a general rule, if I feel strongly about the song and take pride in it, then I know at least someone out there will also hear its message.

Getting Feedback On A New Song-

These are usually the steps I take if the opportunities are there. And if they aren't there, you need to be creative and work to make them available.

1) Record a quality demo of the song

(recording always gives you a better idea of flow and energy)

2) Play the demo to people and watch their reaction. (if they don't react the way you imagined, you need to ask questions and go back to the drawing board)

3) Perform the song live to as many people as possible while you are still excited about the song.(remember, when go see live music you get goosebumps and react when something moves you. Other people are no different... they will let you know if you've done it.)

4) Start a FREE blog or comment page online, post the song and let people leave anonymous comments about your track.

Hope this helps!

Best,

Edgel G.

www.myspace.com/sundomingo

I play the work for as many people as I can. It isn't usually their comments that advise me, it is what I hear them hearing. I have to be with them to hear the music, and something happens where I hear the music: an entirely new way - through their ears. This helps me get an objective handle, and then i start making the changes. Then i bring it back to these people and see their reactions. I continue to tweak until I hear them hearing it the way I hear it.

When I write a new song naturally I love it and along with the emotional rush I never really know if it stikes a nerve with others.

The only way I figure is how many hits it gets on www.myspace.com/johnphelpsband

I'd love to be in touch with a panel of strangers to critique my songs when they are new and still being tweeked.

I have a few regular gigs for groups that seem to enjoy, recieve and understand my tunes more than any others. So, many times I will present new songs to them before I perform them anywhere else. I can tell by their response and energy if it connects or not. If it does, I have a keeper.

Derek,

A songwriter I have a great deal of respect for once told me that a good songwriter spends most of his time rewriting. So I spend a great deal of time rewriting and editing my songs. I do a little bit of everything you mentioned because all have their advantages and their drawbacks, I have a group of professional songwriters, musicians and fans alike that critique my music. I also let songs "cook" a while before performing it in live shows. I like to see if the song has stood the test of time and I am able to critique my own music a little more objectively. One of the worst things a songwriter can do is put a song out before its finished.

I live in Columbus, Ohio today I am in Columbus, Georgia for a Brian White (SEASAC song of the year-2007 and many more)Pete Salis NSAI regional workshop (actually February 28th tomorrow).

I don't find friends too helpful for critiques, most of them don't want to hurt your feelings.

I see it as continuous improvement.

1. I belong to all three songwriting groups in Central Ohio. They are almost never kind and sometimes they come up with good ideas. (5 meetings a month). I have a song lyric being critiqued tonight even though I am 700 miles away--I had a friend take it in for me.

2. I use a paid advisor often. www.rickberesford.com (Teaches at Belmont College in Nashville and has several cuts). I have also used Pat and Pete Luboff on occasion.

3. I keep informed about who is looking for what (I subscribe to RowFax) so I don't waste too much time with my political angst songs http://taxtheworld.com

4. I put a lot of stuff up for review on SongRamp.com but they are mostly a polite cyber-clatch type thing. I think my stuff is pretty good but I have never had a criticism from anyone at SongRamp. But it is a great place for $33 a year to store stuff have a private listening room you can send a link to a plugger or A&R guy. Not everything I do is on SongRamp.com

5. I travel 402 miles to Nashville almost once a month and build relationships; go to publisher pitches at NSAI, etc. I will probably join TNSAI this year too, they meet at Belmont College.

6. Some stuff I just do for fun like "Bail Out Blues" but for serious stuff like my sooon to be posted rewrite (March 15th) of "Credit Card Junkie" I listen to the market and try to make sure it is relative to the listener. I also play the financial stuff at my speaking engagements (I am author of Good Debt, Bad Debt (Penguin, 2005).Other serious songs "I Like Me Best When I'm Next to You" and "West Virginia Skies" have a decent chance of getting cut. West Virginia Skies was written by me for two orphans. We want to use it as part of a college fund raiser for the kids.

http://myspace.com/hansondemo

7. Read, read, read. Write, write, write. I learned a ton from Steve Seskin at a two day workshop in Nashville (January). Sesking encouraged me to rewrite 50 percent of Credit Card Junkie.


8. Here is Seskin's advice on self-song critique: Every line should be as fun as the last line to sing. The song has to be appealing to the singer too. He looked at Credit Card Junkie and said these are great lines, but these, these, and these are not. Those are the ones I rewrote. He also didn't like something in the chorus and we are changing that too. He was brutally honest and I appreciated that.

9. I use the NSAI critique service too.

10. I am getting some indie airplay on a song now and the feed back from the actual public is valuable.

11. I make sure to have .wav files of the music only tracks so I can go back in the studio and have the vocalist redo something without paying for a new session. Just this week I had to go in and snip the word "yuppie" out of a song--several critiquers? thought the singer was saying "yucky." Saying yuppie wasn't helping the song so we just sniped it and remixed the edited lead vocal with minimal effort.

If you have not planned for rewrites and fixes after you operate the song for a month or two, you probably won't want to fix it and will start to compromise and tell yourself it's OK the way it is. This starts a vicious cycle, of frustration. If you can't take constructive critique and make changes you probably are not a songwriter serious about getting cuts and competing with the big boys (and girls).

Jon Hanson

www.gooddebt.com

www.myspace.com/hansondemo

JonHanson (on songramp.com

I play new songs for my wife and my 17 year old son, who also writes music. I would love a forum where I could get honest feedback about what works and what doesn't. I've gone to Songpull, but each person there is mainly interested in playing and leaving, not really interested in helping hone each other's work. I've entered songwriting contests; the judges have formulaic criteria (must be verse, verse, chorus, verse, chorus; is there a hook?) and don't have a sense of a song's aesthetic. If the song doesn't elicit some emotional response, it's just pap.

At the end of the day you can play your song for a few trusted friends and their opinions but what matters most is if deep down it's a song you want to play again and again and you know in your heart it's good. Very few pass this test.

I've been writing for a long time and now when I get something new that I get a strong vibe from, I try to record it quickly (in a studio) and get a good arrangement down. I may add it to my set list at a performance if I really like it...or send it out for local airplay.

What do you do for feedback on a new song you’re writing?

Well the best songs I write and record are the songs that I get very much excited about them from begining.

Do you play it for a few friends, looking for praise?

I have stopped this after few albums in the past. No need for more ego speak.

Do you play it for a few friends, looking for criticism? (Really asking, “What don’t you like about it?”)

Do you upload it to your site, and email everyone you know, asking what they think?

I put my albums online for sale.

The best songs and albums are always those that people buy more:)

Kind of strange but it's true.

Do you send it to a company for paid critique?

Nope.

Used to send a lot of songs for companies in Israel in the past.

This made me less artistic in many ways.

But got some very good critiques from well established musicians.

Up to the pick level when you can say to yourself - "enough of this shit I can figure it out myself".


Do you have a songwriting teacher or mentor?

Nope.

When you get feedback, are you looking to change and improve your song?

I wrote too many songs so far.

I look for my own good feeling about the song.

And someone to buy it.

My Mentors where CSN&Y,Jazz, Latin and old blues. I've learned to trust my own ears and if "I" like it ,thats all that counts. I have to live with it. Dallas W.Taylor

Not rocket-science, but we are fortunate to have a 15 year old daughter who is on a Music scholarship at her school. She is so GOOD at putting what I would put as criticism and be too heavy with phrases like

" [x] puts counter points on their pointer points, and forgets to keep going back to the melody".

I mean it shows an understanding of the way music is or can be put together, and is constructive as well as descriptive.

Early on, I went to some writing workshops. I found them good for gaining confidence in what I was doing, & sometimes humbling for what other folks were producing. But they're a sterile, 'safe' environment. The best feedback you get is from performing live. Whether people say anything or not you'll get an idea of how a song went over.

My routine with a new piece is to play it to death at home until I like it & I'm familiar with it. Then go present it somewhere. I make a point of announcing it's "the first time out for this one" - that can sometimes induce a comment. Or a frosty silence.

I'll bring a new song into rehearsal and we usually learn it that way, then we tear it apart and maybe add or subtract intros, solos and endings or add a bar here or there or a rest and then we nail it down and learn it that way . Once we know it and like it, we'll play it without any mention of who wrote it just to see what happens and when there is a great reaction we know it's ready to be recorded and we move on to the next piece or just drink some beer and jam !

i usually just play the tune for other musicians who i work with. my wife is an opera singer and i respect her suggestions but i will always go with my musical instinct. no matter what.

I will usually ask someone in the family for feedback and ideas. Mostly I just slap a few tracks together and listen to it repeatedly. New ideas or changes occur after hearing it a hundred times or so.

At this moment, my mom and daughter are the only ones qualified to hear WIP early roughs since they know my catalogue complete and can weigh in best with that wide grasp of my intent. They also don't make any effort to genre-define my songs - if you know my music, you'll understand that point...

When songs are ready to go into mixdown, I'll get close friends to listen but only a few opinions per track -

- the biggest danger (dilution) is also the biggest potential blessing (influence) - overall, feedback will enhance your songs. But be ready to 'not' use someone's feedback too, and then live with that choice when it's mastered, because you'll hear all those suggestion voices in your head after it's too costly to re-mix and re-press...

I've personally never found a need for help to write or finish a song, ideas come pretty fast to me, too fast for me to catch all of them actually. Still, I look for co-writers in Citadel because I like the shared experience better than the one-person-does-all approach - but either way - writing is not a choice for me, it is what comes out whenever I'm near an instrument...pen pick paint photo pc...

Truth is, I most often let the silence that comes immediately after the part already written tell my ears what should come next - cliff jumping - my best hint toward what sound to make is the absence of sound and imagining what should fill it.

Thanks Derek, made me stop what I was doing and ponder again - when will I learn to spot your sneaky edification trickery in advance?

Love it!

Rejyna

Who could you ask to give a critique? Family? They'd tell you you're great no matter how crappy you are. Just check out the A.I. losers. Friends? Same thing, they wouldn't want to hurt your feelings if they thought your song was lacking. It must be anonymous or you won't get real feedback. Even then, it's simply an opinion. If you want REAL help improving a song, find your fave band on your same success level. A band who's songs you love and collaborate with the writer. Music is all opinion. Now if you want to sell a million records then something has to appeal to a lot of people but even then your song could suck. Think about some hits you've heard that just suck ass. You know what I mean.

Be true to yourself and write honestly and love your own songs and sooner or later "they" will see the light!

When I have finished a tune, I start to doubt if it's really finished or if I need to work more on it. I continue to work on it - only to find out that it was finished... I upload it to soundclick.com where I store all my tunes. I hope enough listeners will discover it and play it enough to make it climb in the charts. I seldom send out news letters, and I don't have enough fans to see any difference. Sometimes the tune will be discovered by listeners later. I hate promotion and don't like to invite others to listen to my music. This is probably why I haven't reached a bigger audience with my tunes. ...Or maybe my tunes SHOULD have been improved in the first place? ;o)

First, I live with it and do my changes, make sure it says what I want it to. Second, we rehearse it and embellish it and if I can't sell the song to my guys we drop it into the "scavenge it pile". Next we add it to our 1st set every night- if people don't react well,depending on the tone of the song (slow -Fast, do they dance, sit there in amazement, or applaud), after a few tries we can it ! Workshops never work well they are full of politics and petty jealousys and partly the reasons we have so much garbage out there today, just my little ol' opinion. oh by the way the ones that fail I sell to American Idol, After all a pretty face can sell anything, just kidding Folks !!

Derek,

I'm always grateful for the questions you periodically make public, but I almost never find myself with much to contribute to the discussion. I just follow with interest.

This question is--these questions are--different, and I'm glad you asked because it is absolutely essential that songwriters learn to find honest, vigorous feedback on their works in progress. At least, it is absolutely essential to any writer hoping to do great work.

Here are my answers, which I hope at least a few other people will find relevant.


-Do you play it for a few friends, looking for praise?

Never. I do like hearing good things about my finished work, but not my works-in-progress. If I consider a work unfinished, it is because I feel there are parts left to improve. Praise alone does not make that feeling go away--it just gives me a reason not to do work that, when I'm being honest, I know needs doing.




-Do you play it for a few friends, looking for criticism? (Really asking, “What don’t you like about it?”)

Yes. But only for two friends in particular. These two friends are also songwriters, and they do better work than any other songwriters I've ever met. Better, in fact, than most of the songwriters on my iPod. Because I know and respect their work so much, these friends have two very important powers.

(1) When their are problems I'm aware of, I trust their solutions for fixing them.

(2) When there are problems I'm NOT aware of--for example, if I think the song is finished--I trust them when they say I'm wrong.

There's one principle at work here: If good enough for me, it's not necessarily good enough for them; if it's good enough for them, it's not necessarily good enough for me.

No song isn't done until all three of us are satisfied, or at least until I'm satisfied, and have considered my friends' points as honestly and openly as I can.



- Do you upload it to your site, and email everyone you know, asking what they think?

I tried this once. I posted a work in progress--just lyrics--to my band's blog, and asked for feedback in the comments. Here's the think to that post:

http://www.newneighbors.info/blog/?p=100

and to the post from a few days later, which contained a recording. (People were not comfortable judging just the lyrics.)

http://www.newneighbors.info/blog/?p=106

Mixed results. Some of the commentary seemed useful, other commentary was not. But the important lesson, I think, is that no one suggested anything my two friends didn't catch privately. And one listener explicitly mentioned that seeing this part of the process made him/her uncomfortable.

Still, this is all useful documentation if you're curious about how much the overall character of a song can change, just by transposing it, changing a verse or two, and approaching the vocal differently.

The final recording is here:

http://www.newneighbors.info/blog/?p=145

Really finishing the song took from November 2008 to February 2009!!



- Do you send it to a company for paid critique?

I do not. And I will not, unless you can show me a company whose employees are themselves making better songs than my two songwriting friends.



- Do you have a songwriting teacher or mentor?

Many! David Byrne, John Lennon, Paul McCartney, Shostakovich, The Understudy, Dylan, and Mason Jennings are the writers I listen to most. But I can learn from anyone in any style who knows how to make honest work.



- When you get feedback, are you looking to change and improve your song?

Oh yes! I'm looking not just to change the song, but to change myself as a songwriter. I look at every song as a chance to (a) write the best song I've ever written, and (b) learn more about songwriting, so that I can do even better work next time. Obviously not every song I write ends up better than the songs that came before it, but I think I *do* become a better writer with each effort.

And that's the really fun part; that's why I keep making stuff, why I HAVE to keep making stuff. How much can I grow?


That's all I have time to write just now--I'm off to see David Byrne at Radio City!!!

See you soon,

Chris Frank

Hi Derek,

hope you are fine!

My stuff is rather prog, or neo-classical, so not everyone would necessary like it. I have tried the following approach with my solo album: once it was mastered, I have made myself app. 50 copies of it - all inclusive cover, and have distributed them among my friends, students, fellow musos, have sent a couple to the studio engineers I have worked with, and have asked all these guys to give me feedback. Finally, I had about two pages of comments on each song! After it, I have made the improvements and the CD was remastered and only then published. This was a good decision - it is better to hear the critique from the friends, as to read it in reviews later!:)

Regards,

Andrew

Hi Derek, I play the song for my friend Tracy. If she starts rolling her eyes around, I know she hates the song but if she yells out "Ya Right On", I know it's good.

John Janes

I think too much focus is on getting feedback AFTER a song is written (what to change, take out, etc.), and not enough on what goes INTO the song in the first place (ie. what types of lyric words tend to have more impact, the emotional effects of certain chords, etc.)

While a song is definitely a work of art, unique and a product of someone's inspiration and creativity, there are usually certain fundamental things that a writer needs to know in order to create something that will connect with listeners. We wouldn't try to build an airplane without a certain amount of instruction and guidance, and rely only on feedback to see if it works. A song that "works" is no less impactful. But I suppose the consequences of experiencing a poorly "built" song (say, falling asleep) are less dire than experiencing a poorly built airplane (um, maybe death).

So I say: put more attention into what goes INTO the song in the first place, and then, of course solicit feedback later. There are a number of good books available on both lyric writing & music composition but, unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be as many classes taught in this vein. I was once fortunate enough to attend a class where the teacher did teach this way. (I have also experienced the feedback method as well.)

Well ... actually I present all songs to my wife and she is really a hard critic. She says just "I like it" or "I not like it" or something more specific and then I have to look. Sometimes I play a special part for her and let her decide between two different versions, when I am not shure, what is better. So when she is smiling it's a good work.

Second step will be to present the finished work to close friends to hear more and more feedback. I analyse the given feedbacks looking for equal advices and do last adjustments.

Kind regards, Dirk

Derek, I found the type of songwriting workshop you mention to be the best way to get worthwhile feedback. I used to attend some where both experienced and new writers gave feedback on everyone's songs, and everyone's opinion was considered valid. At a gig, people applaud for all kinds of reasons, and your friends and family will always tell you they like your stuff (except for my brutally honest wife!) There's nothing wrong with playing your songs for people in any setting, but, in general, I think a focused and sincere group of people in a songwriting workshop is a great way to get feedback that will help you grow as a writer. Even if I disagreed with things people said about my songs, I still came away from pumped up and ready to write, and I learned a lot about myself by observing how other people react when their songs are analyzed.

All these comments are true. I could agree and disagree with all of them. Songwriting varies (for better or worse) with experience, and age. I make songs when i have too much to say. The songs i made public i wrote after giving myself too much to teach then simplifying it so that even a child could feel or understand it. The songs i keep private come and go like clouds. I dream them or sing them - then later i might hear someone else do the same or similar thing - or notice a giant hole where nobody is singing it. Freeform is the art, what we capture is only a record of the moment or a shared reconstruction of it. In mainstream - construction and formula is everything - in real life, a song can keep you alive - other times it just gives back to a crowd what they are giving to you.. but in the universe of imagination - it is possible that songs are a universally shared experience at the moment of their creation, which explains why different writers occasionally write the same song. Christy Moore once sang "you lay one to rest - another song is born".. I made my songs public so i could give birth to new ones, private or public. Writing songs is like scetching - recording them is like producing a layered piece of finished art - or like catching a cloud.

I don't really look for feedback, but sometimes it happens spontaneously. Since I do two different things: write songs with lyrics and write instrumental "songs" for my 10-piece band, there are several ways I can get feedback. With the band, the band members themselves are my best source of feedback, and I'm happy to listen to what they have to say -- up to a point. That point is when they stop making suggestions about my piece and start trying to turn it into their piece.

With the songs that have lyrics, I often send them to a singer I've been writing for over the years, to see if she wants to sing/record them or not. If she doesn't like something, I usually just let it go. I'm not into altering my songs, unless it's something minor.

I see song and music writing as an individual matter, and I really never try to "shape" my music to suit what I think an audience would like. I just let it flow through me with the thought that someone out there will enjoy it!

As crazy as this may sound, I don't ask for feedback from anyone. I don't share or discuss WIPs ( works in progress). I consider other people's opinions distracting and counter productive. My muse is very adamant about this. I trust my musicality and the voices in my head. ;-)

I don't bring a tune to my band until I am confident it is ready for "prime time". So far this has worked well for me. I am not saying every tune I've ever written is a masterpiece. I have a few "problem children" but even in their "imperfection" there is something appealing.

I realise creative styles are different. I say don't get hung up on what other people think. Let them write their own music and leave you to writing your own.

When I have composed a new instrumental I do the following: Play it for my wife; play it at open mic performances or jam sessions. I never ask for feedback because most people will feel put on the spot. The most important criteria is that I like the composition. If I do I will then record it and continue listening to it for self evaluation. After I have recorded enough for a CD I will put together a new CD issue it on CD baby, sell it at performances, and put it out on electronic download sites. Audience reaction sometimes helps me evaluate.

i dont bounce ideas off of anybody when i write a song...i make the song for me first and foremost...if people like it GREAT...and if people don't like it GREAT as well...i'm making art that is personal to me and not music or songs for commercials or to make money...I doubot Picasso ever bounced a painting idea off of his cohorts..."Do you think that ear is in the right place"?

HELLO EVERY ONE ..I'M LUKO ADJAFFI

MY MUSICAL INSPIRATIONS IS THE EVERY DAY EXPERIENCE ...FROM GOD

CREATION POEPLE ANIMALS THE IDEA

OF THE PLANET EARTH ...SPIRITUALITY

NOT CHURCH ..I MEAN I'M FINDING A

SONG MOST OF THE TIME COME FROM A

FAR AWAY PLACE ...WHEN IT TRANFER TO ...IT'S DONE .....SOME TIMES ITS , UNFINISH UNTIL SOME ONE ELSE FEEL IT AND PLAY IT ..THIS IS MY VIEW BROTHER DEREK .S

LUKO ADJAFFI

I play it for an audience as soon as possible. Not to see how *they* like it, but rather to see how *I* feel about playing it for them.

Time is an excellent critic. Good songs continue to sound good as the months roll on.

Patience is also important. Usually, I know when a song has a line or part that needs changing. But I may not know how to do that for a long time. Sometimes I've had to wait 3-5 years, but the wait has always been worth it. And I just seem to know when it's done.

I usually don't collaborate on songs or present drafts for review to anyone. That having been said, I spend quite a bit of time working on the finer details of a song's lyrics and melody line until I believe it is ready for public. I used to be a lecturer in Professional Writing at the University of Canberra, and one of the points I liked to impress upon my students was that all writing, including songwriting, must fully engage the reader/listener (willing suspension of disbelief) and must never give them pause to become disengaged from the writing because they found something wrong, or even just a little "off". Therefore, when I draft a song I try to listen for those "disengaging" moments so that I might eliminate them. That includes lazy use of cliches and corny phrases.

Once I am satisfied with a song I will put it into a few shows to gauge the audience reaction. At the first outing I usually tell the audience that they will be the first people, aside from my dog, to hear the song. I never ask for feedback or their thoughts, although sometimes I receive them anyway. After a few outings I can gauge a pattern of response to the song and determine where it stands on my "audience meter". That doesn't mean I will toss out songs that rate lowly, it just means that I don't include them in shorter "power" shows where I only have time for a few songs before I am off stage.

I could go on about songwriting for hours, especially lyrics. As the songs says, "don't start me to talkin' or I'll tell you everything I know". Hope this helps.

Cheers

Ernie

The easiest way to find out what people think about a new song is by asking people who dont know you. Alway make sure you ask a couple cause we all dont hear the same thing.

I used to pay a song critique person who has gotten me many single song contracts but now I just write from my heart and what feels right for me.

Typically if I am releasing a CD I will get it evaluated by a professional which I did on my debut CD for half of it. I have been critiqued so much over a 16 year period and paying for this service that now it is time to rely on my instinct and my friends who write songs who do it for free. Its high time I make my money back on what I like to sing not what others feel is a hit. It has been a great recipe so far.

Blessings all and don't take yourself too seriously,

Kim Yarson

I've gotten a lot of feedback from NSAI and Minnesota Songwriters.

I always needed convincing that something isn't working. Sometimes that was easy, sometimes not.

Then trying to record everything and give it to different people and ask their opinions.

I have an audience at church that used to be valuable but, now they seem to be more like family that loves everything I do.

You've ALWAYS got to consider the source. If someone tells me, "I like DOPED UP STRIPPER." I say that's great. I know it's not the best song I've written but, it appeals to some. I don't have to re-write it to make it more appealing cause the folks it appeals to love it. Always a consideration.

natural for me to feel it.

yes would mak friends listen,

any one to listen.i'll upload to my

site gave it to DJ i'll jst stood

there see how the people reacted ..honesty if my little son dance to it

that tell me a lots..

nice one

bro..

peace.

I generally hold a melody or hook in my mind for a day, then record it into my phone, then if i listen back to it and still like it I figure out other parts of it or options and play them for my wife...if she's into it then I know I cant let it die and generally finish the song. By the time its played in front of people its long since crystalized and finished.

The first person that usually hears my new songs or song ideas is my wife. She's also a musician and a songwriter and is not shy about letting me know what she thinks. My songs are usually pretty well finished before I let anyone hear them. Besides my own band I'm part of a group of singer/songwriters that go out and perform under the name of Urban Caravan. That's often the first place I'll debut a new song to hear what the other songwriters say. And I get feedback from the audience. You can tell right away how an audience feels about a song. Finally, if I get a shiver or two while I'm performing a new song than I know it's good. At least I think it's good and that's probably the most important thing in the end.

Although I believe musical/songwriting collaborations can be very productive, there is a major problem when too many people are involved. In my experience, songs written "by a committee" are usually cliche-ridden and formulaic because the whole process pushes the participants into compromises to appease each of the participants.

I've leanered in my years of song writing to not worry what others think of the songs that I write. If I'm writing a song coming from my heart, it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks. For as we songs writers know, anything can happen with any kind of song that is written. Who's to say what's good and what's not?!!!! If you like what you write, that's all you need.

In my opinion a good songwriter can write to any blank piece of music presented to them. The tone of the music itself sets the inspiration for the topic or theme of the song. For example if someone handed me “Shinny Happy People” without a vocal melody attached to it, assuming I never heard the song before I don’t think I would write a dark song against the musical canvass. I‘ve heard of people writing lyrics first, then the music. Well I’ve never done it like that in my 20 years of composing. Here’s how I compose a song. I was flattered to find out this is exactly the formula Paul McCartney and John Lennon used for many years:

My experience lies in composing hard rock, rock, mainstream pop, and country music.

* Write the basic musical skeleton on a guitar usually 3 or 4 different connecting parts or progressions that mix things up and compliment each other.

* Begin the “la la la” stage of plugging in a melodic line that goes with the music and has a catchy rhythm all it’s own. A great vocal melody lines can stand on it’s own two feet without any music at all.

* Write the chorus first to establish a musical foundation, then build upon it.

* Begin writing versus that lead up to the meaning of the chorus. These parts can be ambiguous in meaning compared to the chorus which must be direct and to the point.



Below are characteristics that make up a really good piece of music.

* Makes a real and genuine connection with a listener emotionally.

* Short and sweet experience.

* Has several parts that mix things up and maintains the focus of the listener.

* Leaves a strong and lasting impression with a listener.

* The emotions heard in the vocal delivery is the most important selling point of the piece of music.



M.S Rhodes a/k/a Cyrus

www.7at.net

I haven't had time to read all comments here there are so many, but we would debut new songs live and see how they went down. How else would you do it? Its not something that you can put down to science OK, you can analysis it to death but inspiration doesn't come out of some kind of recipe. Otherwise we'd all be doing it if it was something you could learn from a some songwriting 'workshop' or whatever.

Something you might like, other people wont, something they like, you wont. You could go on forever trying to please everyone! Just try and target your own crowd, stick to your principles

My original tunes have only been instrumentals and I don't think I'm enough of a poet to write my own lyrics at this point. However, when I start--I'll go to a songwriting camp or workshop and let the instructors and other students have a go at critique as that seems to be the place to get good feedback.

Although--I'm not entirely sure that some of the feedback is not entirely without issues anywhere.

For instance, in a vocal clinic last year--we were readjusting the wording of our songs to make them clear and since I didn't have an original tune, I used Prince's "When Doves Cry." The instructor let her husband give critique and he was unfamiliar with Prince and thought I had written the song and suggested I take out the word "alone". :) :) Since that is Prince's main theme of the entire tune--I thought that was pretty weird advice. If it had been my tune--I would have been crushed--but since it was Prince's tune--I recognized it for the bad advice it was. :)

On my instrumentals--if it sounds right in my heart--I go ahead and record it and let the listeners decide if its for him/her or not. There always seem to be lots of folks who write and say how much they enjoy the tunes and I wouldn't want to change the tunes for the folks that like them for the folks who like something else. :)

I usually take it to the band first and ask them for their honest opinions. I also run it by my wife, who is brutally honest. Once the band has heard it and started making changes that they hear, we run it by some outsider friends for their input. It works pretty good for us, and our songs always evlove with the entire band having input.

I find I am better off relying on my own gut about a song.

It doesn't matter if anyone else says it's good or not because I don't know if they are just being nice or not.

I know I would never dis another persons work even if I wasn't into it because I don't want to discourage anyone putting themselves out there.

And I don't like a lot of major stuff that sells like crazy. Does this mean they aren't good songs?

Ironically, I have one song that gets a lot of play on a web radio site and it's not at all a good seller, but 5 Djs picked it up and now it's also on the regular rotation.

I don't think it's bad or I would haven't put it out there, but wouldn't exactly call it a favorite.



As for peers, I find they can be the worst to ask because some may be envious.

Being a fiction writer as well, I had a writer friend who used to critique my work and she loved it until I got published.

She had not had anything published and after that she began shredding my work so badly I had to end the friendship.

So I just don't trust others feedback all that much.

My bandmates and friends are often the first line of questioning. I can get some really honest opinions from them and they know I won't take stuff personally.

After that, I usually ask the opinions of other songwriters, other musicians and artist managers I respect by emailing a link to a pretty-much complete tune.

The feedback is good and I pay attention to suggestions but more often go with my instincts... otherwise, my music would just sound like everyone else's or a mish-mash of everyone else's.

The best thing for feedback was garageband.com, but they don't run the site well anymore and the rating system is all screwed up. oh how i wish there was another garageband.com but with a better rating system and more competition.

Just an interesting aside. My drummer and I were talking about performing and found that if anyone criticized our instrumentals--it did not hurt our feelings or bother us in anyway and we were unlikely to believe them because we always played tunes we really liked and if someone didn't like it--we didn't take it personally because we felt confident the music was good.

However, if anyone criticized our singing or lyrics--we felt upset and took it personally. For some reason--singing and lyrics felt more personal than instrumentals and we felt more vulnerable to mean spirited comments. ????

However, a nice friend (and good vocalist) recently gave me some great advice. She said-"take the stage with your singing with the same confidence you play--and you will sound wonderful. :)

As a professional manager, I am often on the giving end of song critique. My first move is to ascertain the motive of the writer. If their motive is "Hit" then I immediately evaluate the song from its suitability for radio. Is it too long? Does it comfortably fit a radio format? Are there strong hooks? Are there any elements such as language or instrumentation that would alienate that format of radio? Does the hook come in soon enough and does it repeat enough?

I also look for glaring mistakes such as poor rhymes; tenses that are mixed up (past, present, future); persons mixed up (he, she, him, you); unclear images or references; dated language or musical riffs etc.

oh and i'd like to add to my last post - i've never found another good way to get honest feedback besides garageband.com(when it was working right, now it takes a month to get 20 reviews)

BUT, i've tried other things. When i play my music for friends or fans or people that i've just met, they always say good things. sometimes asking them to ge negative and tell me what songs they would skip helps, but even that doesnt work really. My friends and people i meet are all from the same area and have certain tastes. When you get a worldwide perspective, the real hits stand out. no show, or company, or friend or fan or random people are going to give you good perspective on what the world will think. We need a website for this i think.

I think a songwriter should learn to please him or herself and express him or herself. If you are totally sure that the song represents your personality or an aspect of it then it's a no-lose situation. Trying it out live is a good way of forming your own judgement. Don't worry about other people's judgement, it's not their job to decide whether or not your work is worthwhile. I'm not a big Phil Collins fan but I heard him say recently that by the time anyone hears a song of his, he's already decided it's a keeper, and I agree with that approach.

Hey Derek great response,

I've done most of my songs with co-writers, and occasionally I write some solo. Sometimes it flows like sap out of a maple in the spring, then there are other times, hmm, hardly worth the effort of trying. As far as being critiqued, like one of your readers said, some will like one song, and some will hate it. That's why we have different genre's of music. Ever see a heavy metal band play Johnny Cash? Well I did, but not too often, well maybe I should have said country. But always put your songs on the shelf for a little while, because you can usually point out your own mistakes.

Guy

http://www.nrtco.net/~guykelli/

I guess I have confidence in myself, in that I'm interested in playing my songs for other people, and want honest criticism, but I rarely change anything because someone says I should, unless it's a technical thing having to do with mixing, or a recording technique ("don't put the mic so close to the soundhole," etc.). Could be because I know very few Berklee College of Music level musicians; the punkers and grungers I know usually say, "Wow, man, great...," which is OK, but not very helpful. Or they say, "Hmm, I dunno...," but can't articulate just what they don't like. This is a general problem I have--I have to learn and do everything myself because I don't know anyone who's knowledgeable enough to help me!

But, yeah, as far as lyrics go, I trust in me.

I try to finish the song the way that i hear it and then get some feedback from different people and if i am hearing mostly the same comments whether its good or bad then I'll go back and tweak it or just leave it as is.

In my opinion a good songwriter can write to any blank piece of music presented to them. The tone of the music itself sets the inspiration for the topic or theme of the song. For example if someone handed me “Shinny Happy People” without a vocal melody attached to it, assuming I never heard the song before I don’t think I would write something dark song against the musical canvass. I‘ve heard of people writing lyrics first, then the music. Well I’ve never done it like that in my 20 years of composing. Here’s how I compose a song. I was flattered to find out this is exactly the formula Paul McCartney and John Lennon used for many years:

BTW - My experience lies in composing hard rock, rock, mainstream pop, and country music.

- Write the basic musical skeleton on a guitar using 3 or 4 different connecting parts or progressions that mix things up and compliment each other.

- Begin the “la la la” stage of plugging in a melodic line that goes with the music and has a catchy rhythm all it’s own. A great vocal melody line can stand on it’s own two feet without any music at all.

- Write the chorus first to establish a musical foundation, then build off it.

- Begin writing versus that lead up to the meaning of the chorus. These parts can be ambiguous in meaning compared to the chorus which must be direct and to the point.

Below are characteristics that make up a really good piece of music.

- Makes a real and genuine connection with a listener emotionally.

- Short and sweet experience.

- Has several parts that mix things up and maintain focus of the listener.

- Leaves a strong and lasting impression with a listener.

CRITICAL - The emotions heard in the vocal delivery will always be the most important selling point of the song.

Cyrus Rhodes

Guitarist foe Seven Against Thebes

www.7at.net

Wow. That's a ton of feedback and I'm sure my answer is probably already covered. The songs I write are always growing even after I record them. I guess I am my own greatest critic. But, one thing I would suggest is being open-minded. Sometimes I'll find I'm stuck on a storyline or a lyric or chord progression because I've put so much time and effort into it... and sometimes have to just realize it's not the answer and approach the song from a different angle. Just do not get caught up with one approach to the song no matter how much you've put into it. One friend suggested I change a slower song I'd written by increasing tempo and putting it to a reggae beat. Works great!

I play it for a couple friends, and I put it on my web site as soon as I can get a decent demo - some songs are easier to do that with than others. But I know I have the essence if my wife likes it - she doesn't know about music, but she knows about BullShit. If she likes it, a lot of other people will, too.

i have two sides to my musical identity so i use two different methods. 1. i play in a country band that performs several of my tunes. i bring them in as 'finished' songs but the other members have often made suggestions for both music and lyrics. every song has gotten better because of their input. the ones we keep are based on audience reaction. 2. i also write jazz instrumentals that i record myself in my home studio. i ask for no feedback on these since they are 'my babies'. you can hear them at www.rickcicconetti.com or at www.myspace/rickcicconetti or better yet, cdbaby/rickcicconetti/underthewaterfall.

I've done so many things... The least effective has been sending songs in progress to a creatively-minded friend who I knew was not really into the style of music I was doing. I thought he might be able to listen more objectively and give me some truly illuminating feedback. Instead I ended up getting so hung up trying to get him to like the music I about threw it all out.

Another fail is listening over and over myself, or physically mapping out the song visually on paper (tracking dynamics, what kinds of arrangements I'm using, etc.) Obsessing makes me end up hating the song because I've listened and thought about it so much I can hear every tiny mistake, even taking in a breath a second too late.

Anything that takes me away from my personal connection to the music is suspect. I like playing a song and watching the non-verbal response the listener gives, but realizing it only means so much. Trying something out live is great, you can read the body language and get a lot from that, and you can always tell the difference between polite applause and actual "hey that was good" applause. The good stuff rises to the top over many sets, and a lot of times I'll put a plus sign by a song on the setlist if I get a good response from it.

I would love to have a collaborative experience working with someone who's able to help me shape the song, but most of the people I interact with are too polite or unable to articulate well what they're thinking. I've gotten better over the years at listening to my gut and admitting as soon as possible if a song is sucking wind.

I usually will shop the song around to some of my friends within the industry. Usually they give me a straight forward answer, and will comment or express issues/concerns they may have with the song. From there, I usually perform it at a few new shows.

What do you do for feedback on a new song you’re writing?

* Do you play it for a few friends, looking for praise?

Only if the song was written for them specially.

* Do you play it for a few friends, looking for criticism? (Really asking, “What don’t you like about it?”)

Occasionally I will request feedback from a friend or relative that has heard a song.

* Do you upload it to your site, and email everyone you know, asking what they think?

No. If I have something I think is worthwhile, I go ahead & copyright it legitimately. Since I record only very basic at home, if it's not worthy - if I don't feel good about it - I wouldn't spend money on a studio for it.

* Do you send it to a company for paid critique?

I don't like to pay for critiques if I can help it. But I suppose if there were someone I really thought highly of in the business that I trusted to give a straight constructive opinion, that would be a possibility

* Do you have a songwriting teacher or mentor?

No, but I would love to have that.

When you get feedback, are you looking to change and improve your song?

Depends on the feedback. I have a peer group I share with (a songwriting organization). Everyone is on a different professional level. Many focus on book rules. My personal focus is on what feels right. Many of my peers aren't listening to contemporary radio. I am an old lady, but I still listen to what's out their now. Some spend hours picking a phrase apart. I take it all with a grain of salt. The test comes in performance. If I feel awkward, embarrassed, or really old-fashioned singing a phrase I know I need to change it. Mainly I want to feel good about it.

Or by the time someone hears it, is it pretty much done?

Sometimes I tweak after performing, but I wouldn't go through a full recording session if I wasn't happy with it.

Someone made a comment above. I know some of my music wouldn't be what some people are looking for. As a soloist, I don't currently have that contemporary edge. I am working more on performance style. Anything can go if you are in the right market for it. So, create the market for your music, or write for the market. Or try something different. (Like I am working on some children's songs as well as contemporary folk-rock-whatever-you-want-to-call-it. Go figure, you hear the worst songs sometimes on the radio, but someone still gets behind it. Some of it is luck & some of it is an angle, marketing, or whatever.

I just enjoy it!

Often I record it, put it away, listen weeks or months (years) later, make changes, then repeat until I don't have anything else to add. I then guess which will be most popular on itunes and am usually wrong. The most popular seem to be things that "just came to me" or were improvised in 1-2 takes. A feedback venue would be great!

I have been writting songs, or composing music for over thirty years and my means of getting feed back have varied. Although I was never interested in praise, I was curious to see what reached people, and also wanted critisism. When I wanted feedback on music I would usualy go to an eclectic handful of people of which I valued their musical perspective. (perhaps), A classical horn player, a folk musician, a close friend or two and an elder...

I've never been interested in "HOW MANY PEOPLE I COULD REACH", Making the best music posible has been my vision, though I do agree that audience response can be a good indication that your song works.

35 years down the road, there is no feedback before performance. I compose a piece, the band helps in arranging and Voilé.

I'll play it for my wife and daughter, and they'll tell me if they like it, or if it needs work. I'll mess around with based on that feedback.

Then I'll bring it the band and if they like it, play it the next show.

I play it for a few people at various stages in the writing process to see if their views are close to mine...this way I know if I'm on the right track or need to look at the approach I'm taking. The people I play it for are usually people I can trust to give me honest feedback.

OH and a bit furher, sometimes I'll come up with achorus or a line that will actually make my wife angry. Mostly the lyric has nothing to do with her. like I just was trying out this song "Keep on Truckin" and she couldn't get past that line. So I revamped it and I think I have a better song now.

Peers can be cool as well. Somebody outside your bubble can see/hear stuff you can't.

Wow! I wish I could get as much feedback on my music as you're getting on this e-mail! I get song ideas all the time. A lot of my ideas, I realize on my own they are not worth finishing. On the other hand, some of my music is amazingly God inspired, and I know it was meant to be. Most of my songs have to survive the test of time, how they sound recorded, and how people respond to them. I also seek out and welcome any advise and opinions I can get. Especially if it's someone other than friends and family - who are only going to tell you good things. And I am never beyond editing and changing my work to make it better. I'm always short on time and money. So workshops and classes have not been an option for me. But I would love to do those things if I could. In the end, the final say on a song becoming "a finished song" will come from what my own heart is telling me.

Hey Derek, great post and one that is important to anyone who is trying to become a successful songwriter.

This is a question that is front and center to each song I write. I think that it is most essential to compare your song to what has been successful, whilst not allowing that to change the voice of you as an artist.

I like to think of it as a happy medium of trying to create something that comes from your core and connects to humanity and also has memorability based on the hook and length of segments.

What I have done is submit to songwriting competitions, send my new weekly song out to my fanlist asking for their feedback and try to make sure I am following some kind of underlying structure to the song.

I think that finding communities to give feedback are immensely important and would love to find some that really work online and aren't all about people just posting with 'hey check out my new song'...I did like GarageBand.com's review swapping procedure that they had, but it didn't feel like getting true critiques from other songwriters.

--

John Lennon, Jim Morrison & David Bowie come together to inspire the music of Andrew Hand.

Currently Andrew is working on Songs For Oprah, a 52 week song & music video project, find out more at http://songsforoprah.com. "...I love your idea...The video looks great." - Derek Sivers founder of CD Baby

andrewhand@andrewhand.com

646.623.9363

http://www.andrewhand.com

http://www.songsforoprah.com

--

Sometimes you write a song and you know it's good. It doesn't hurt to bounce it off friends or an audience at a show. What really matters is if you like it.

I go to the piano and write what's in my head..so far so good.

You can hear them at www.gelbardjazz.com

I will show it to the musicians at the arts school I attend. I can ofter get good feedback and I find ways that I can easily improve it. There's no better place for mixing feedback than your parents.

I take as many friends and family opinions as I can get, but I would actually welcome new and other methods to get feedback and input in a song. I would like to have the chance to have a class or group of other songwriters hash out my song. Perhaps a social networking site, but with smaller groups of other musicians that each could submit a song to the group and each member listens and gives ideas back. The problem with current social sites is that your audience is much to large to care about each new song.

Derek,

I like to test new songs by playing them to perfect strangers.

A good rule of thumb is to play your songs to a variety of age groups not just your target market.

Hope that helps someone!

Last but not least you all can take a listen to my songs at cdbaby.com/paytc

or paythecreator.com

The Greatest hits are coming out 2009!

since ive been produced by people and it left a nasty taste in my moputh and really not liking music for quite awhile ive found teh best way is to NOT "try" and write a song let it write itself and if you like listening to it- you got it..of course unless youve had several hundred experiences it may be difficult toget a good look at it..what id try and do is not repeat things.. or insult an audiences intelligence by bashing them with the chorus ive found teh best music ive written is what comes out of my hands and head unpolluted by others vision, otherwise... you are writing their songs not your own does that make sense..a hit gets to be ahit with money and indie promoters,, and if it works on a guitar or piano in a dark room by itself.. youve got half the makings of a good song..told to me by my best priducer Andy Mckaie who is now the senior VP at universal (he did my first album in 1981

Being my own harshest critic, there is much to be said for write, re-write and re-write again before playing for anyone.

I am fortunate to have found a producer who tells it like it is and will not produce a song he considers underdeveloped.

But truly, performing a new song in front of an audience gives me the most honest feedback. I have learned to trust my instincts, and not get too crushed because there is always another song waiting in the wings.

It's weird but after years of making up songs, I've some how learned how to be the objective "third person". It should be obvious what works and what doesn't. But I would never put anyone on the spot and ask if they liked it. If people genuinely like something, they'll tell you. I never started making songs for other people - it was more "what would I like to hear that I can't buy at the record store?" and go that direction.

Luckily, I've had positive feedback,so far.

I have friends who are also writers and they are very honest. Also, I submit my song for a critique with one of the professionals at www.songU.com. I have gotten the best suggestions for tweaking and re-writes from my favorite coach there.

I have written hundreds of songs over the years and what I have found most helpful, is not to ask anyone their opinion at all, whatsoever.

I'll usually leave opinion to the mass appeal of the general public. The reason why I do this, is strictly for the fact of knowing that specifically everyone of us has a different opinion and viewpoint about anything and everything. And usually the opinions solicited may not be what you're looking for anyway. Since it's human nature to seek recognition and praise. So, when we don't get it, it's kind of dismantling and humiliating at best. The response received, primarily will be a meaningless one at best, since many people aren't in-tuned to music or much at all for many reasons that I'd rather not go in to at this juncture.

What it all relates to at best in simple terms, is heartfelt emotion. If the song that's written is performed to tug on the heart strings and emotions, and/or if most of the listeners who will hear it, connect in one way shape or form, as it delivers an empathetic heartfelt impact to the music listener, believe me you'll definately get results and legitimate feedback precisely from those who will generally purchase the track/album. So, why waste valuable time on worthless opinions when sales statistics will eventually divulge true honest and accurate results. That's the only opinion that really counts.

Be well and best of luck to all.

Staten Island Johnny

ATRAXmusicCO.COM

Since the melody comes first for me, I'll first ask members of my family if it sounds like a familiar song, as creating new lyrics for an established tune would be a little crazy.

After that it's played for fellow musicians' comments.

As I am pretty well tucked away I play the song to myself.

Working on a song I will hear it over and over again through the speakers attached.

When I think I have what I want I'll listen to the song through a headset. This is where thumbs up or down come in.

I won't play it just once. A few times.

Usually the "headset" says "fix this or that" and this goes on until I finally think I have it

BUT the real test is the following day. I scare the bejuzzes out of myself when I sit down, bring the song file up and click "play". Because I know, now, I am going to hear it in a different head. A different state of mind. If I like it after that it gets posted...

Sorry I am such a Nilsson-type freak but that's how I do it.

Now: Once posted if I get any critiques of what someone hears could be better I check it out. If I think "yeah"..I edit the song. For example one musician like my stuff musically but thought I should put in more 'high" and less "middle" because he thought some tracks sounded slightly muddy. I love that kind of stuff. I can tell when someone has really listened to my stuff because now and then I like a track so much and it just means something to me, personally, even though I know it's off in many areas, I'll post it. Back into my corner..I know..:)

I'm a bit different I suppose. I'll keep a song to myself until it's right and then let it loose.

Case in point: I play the Chapman Stick. Emmett Chapman had a Eureka moment back in 1969 when he came up with the two-handed tapping technique we all use on his instrument. He told me of that moment and I took what he said and turned it into a storytelling format with a little Stick traveling music underneath. When the song was finished it just felt completely right. I let it loose and he loved it enough to put it on his website permanently at Stick Enterprises. The lyric and the Mp3 are here:

http://www.stick.com/news/stirling.html

Enjoy - Sean Rhys Stirling

At first, I wasn't going to release a second CD because response was so flat for my first. So I decided to try a different compositional approach.

I wrote shorter melodies. I played shorter, less angular solos. I shortened song lengths to make the music more radio friendly. I lived with these songs for days, weeks, sometimes months, listening to them at home, in the car, listening for anything that might make me question something. If I were playing too many notes, being overly complex, if the energy level drops at an unsafe level, if I needed to add a part or take out a part, if I needed to rewrite or remove a song all together! Then after all that, I posted my new songs on my myspace page and waited to hear what people thought. Pretty scary, but when most of the responses were positive, I decided to proceed with the CD project. I know this process is time-consuming but I had time on my hands so why not use it? I have no deadline to meet.

I figured when dealing with instrumental music, especially contemporary jazz, I'd better work on communicating with as many people as I can. That can be difficult when there are no lyrics for a listener to hear. I didn't want to play cliche licks, or water down the music to a point where I didn't enjoy what I was doing, and I definitely didn't want to come off being complex for the sake of complexity! It won't amount to a hill of beans if I write and play music that only musicians "get". Hopefully, I have achieved such balance on my upcoming CD, but only the listeners can tell me that for sure.

And I hope there will be lots of them!

P Wig

Hello:

The Brymers will be entereing the studio in June to record their fourth album in two years. We have plenty of originals, but are always looking for great 60's flavored rockers to record. To hear The Brymers style of music, visit: www.thebrymers.com.

Many thanks,

Dick Lee

This whole thread is goldmine of supporting examples for all the things I've been writing about in my upcoming book.

The responses show the two major divisions, that is, between writers who write primarily to express (i.e. to please themselves, without regard for the listener's reaction ), and those who write primarily to communicate (i.e convey a specific idea or message to others). Refer to:

http://www.billpere.com/PDF/Express_Communicate.pdf

and for a directly relevant discussion of this whole thread in a new light, see:

http://www.billpere.com/PDF/FourFaders_Article.pdf


Not to say that an inward vs, an outward focus is better/worse/right/wrong, just fundamentally different. The key is that those writing to please only themselves will generally have a smaller audience, so it is important to make expression over communication a conscious choice, rather than one that comes from not knowing your other options, or from fear of critique.

A key question for any songwriter or artist to ask is: Why would you settle for "x" number of fans when you could have "x + 1". The only way to achieve the latter is to make the fans, the audience, an integral part of your crafting process (not creative process, but the post-creative crafting process). Knowing how impartial listeners are reacting gives you the choice to try to expand your fan base by addressing the things they point out, in a way that remains artistically acceptable. This can be done, and is a fundamental skill of great songwriters.

Be aware of simple facts such as the impossibility of the writer or anyone close to them to know if the song is actually communicating the intended meaning (that requires an impartial outsider); And the impossibility of the writer or singer knowing if anyone is hearing the words correctly (oronyms such as 'kiss the sky' and 'kiss this guy' can only be detected by someone who does not already know the words).

Many of these responses also are revealing a blurring of the creative process and the crafting process. Critique/re-writing is a part of crafting and in no way compromises creative and artistic integrity - in fact it only enhances it, and it always remains under the control of the artist to apply objective feedback as he/she sees fit.

Self-critiquing is not effective, as in most cases for Indie artists, they are missing 70% of their potential audience (See: http://www.billpere.com/PDF/MBTI%20S-N%20Bullseye%20in%20Lyrics.pdf

and

http://www.billpere.com/PDF/Concrete-Abstract%20SeeSaw.pdf )

Lots of responses here say they rely on audience reaction in live performance - this makes it difficult to discern the difference between the effect of the performance vs the quality of the actual song itself. Songcraft, stagecraft, and studiocraft are distinctly different.

Finally, a level-one critique (like/don't like) can never give a writer insight as to WHY the song is or is not working, and thus provides no actionable information to apply to improving the effectiveness of future songs.

That takes a level-3 critique by someone who knows how to objectively look at the parameters of the song.

The whole area of critique, which many songwriter associations work hard to hone and perfect, is an invaluable source of insight as to how expand your fan base and the reach and impact of your songs.

Hello Derek and friends of the blog,

I have a small group of friends that I've accumulated over the years. Some are/were business associates (like a studio engineer), other entertainers (a magician), and two people I've done movie soundtracks for.

These are the people that have heard my worst, and me theirs but we have a "no holds barred" policy where we take our egos and feelings out of the equation and we depend on each other for honest feedback. This way we can talk, make fun of each other and correct things before we put it out there for everyone else.

One of the things I don't do is

1. Let my family hear it.

2. Let my girlfriend hear it.

3. let the public hear it.

The reason being that most of these people are not artists and don't get the idea of a work in progress. I've had family make faces and be completely turned off to a song of a scratch vocal and just a guitar/etc but love the finished product, whereas the other artists that I trust can see the diamond in the rough, so to speak. I do the same for them. A magic act with no frills or a movie scene with no sound effects and poor editing can still be great in the proper context. It's a great system and since we are always in other states/countries a quick email is all it takes.

When someone has trouble downloading or in a slow area, I just throw it up on youtube from my webcam real quick and disable comments, send them the link and take it down after they watch.

Hope this helps, Never give up!

I don't try to write to please anyone but myself which I guess is one reason why I don't make a living with my songs. :)

For myself, I know a song is finished when I feel it resonate in my heart or chest rather then just my mind. I know it may sound flakey but that's the way it is for me.

For feedback I'll often ask my wife or my guitarist for opinions.

Wilton

1. I play it at a gig & my "inner songwriter" can "feel it" in that magic environment & I also get feedback from select audience members.

2. 3 or 4 sets of trusted & brutally honest ears

3. My writing partners if it's a co-write

4. Me, after I've lived with it.

Easy, I play it to my best critic, my wife!

Songs are like pizza. What one person thinks is great another person will think is trash.

A good songwriter knows when a song is good. That doesn't mean it can't be improved on, and songwriting workshops are fine, but any opinion you get is just an opinion. You want people to like it, but you have to like it too. If it's not your style or why bother?

I'm an old fart who has had many songs played on the radio but never really made much money so this is just another opinion.

You have to be careful who you pick for a mentor. There are many sharks in Nashville posing as mentors.

There is a website www.sellaband.com, where music lovers from all around the world search for artists they like to fund their next album. In this web after uploading your song, you will have a lot of people telling you what they think about your songs, and if they like it, they will even help you to fund your next cd

First I'll play it for fellow musicians and get their opinion about it. Then I'll upload it to my website and invite others to go there and listen and leave me their opinion about it.I also have friends at radio stations I let listen to it.

Typically for me it's a three step process:


1. Try it out on my wife.

2. Try it out for a couple of critique groups I belong to.

3. Play it live and gauge the reaction.

Aside from all this, inherent in the process is still a good bit of trusting my own instincts. In terms of other people's comments, I've learned that a single criticism, even from someone whose views I highly respect, is generally not something I need to take too much to heart. However, if multiple listeners all have the same or a similar criticism, that's a definite sign that there's a problem that needs to be corrected.

1)Play it for the band and see if they get into it and start adding parts.

2)Play it on stage, see if anyone comments after the show.

3)Record rehearsal - share tapes with other musicians who may have something to add.

4)And sometimes if I like the song, just keep playing it until someone else connects to it.

5)Always suprised by what others like.

I use the Just Plain Folks Website,lyric feedback forum.There are thousands of writers ,musicians etc there. Also use Nashville Songwriters Association but you have to be a member. Also i play the song for anyone who will listen.You do need a tough skin because sometimes people will tear your song apart,but always remeber a song critique is just a persons opinion. Take care, S.Dee

I play it for the band. The people who back me up are incredibly talented and seriously experienced musicians and songwriters -- more so even than I in some cases -- and they are all "tough rooms". If they're willing to play it, I'm good to go. Generally, they will make suggestions -- musically more often than lyrically, but sometimes both -- which will invariably make it a much song for their input. I've been playing with most of these people for 10 years now so I trust them to be honest, but we're also family so I feel safe too. My band are friends, mentors, family and co-creators. They're instincts are always right on. If they like it, I always feel confident putting it in front of an audience.

At the beginning of my stint as an Arranging and Composition major at Berklee(79)I quickly noticed that my weekly arrangements were going home with the instructor, and taking an awfully long time to be returned to me. (He was actively gigging at the time.)I decided then that my weekly assignments would be as generic as possible, and with not much thought to the structure of the melody, but only to show the particular techniques in which I was instructed to apply.

However, I find that the best way to present your song is to perform it, or record it...and then, "Que Sera, Sera...whatever will be, will be."

My songs usually go through many phases.

1) Recorded on a handheld tape player. Listen back days later.

2) Then presented to the band. They shape the structure & add or subtract parts.

3) Perform in front of small groups of kids in my solo concerts & gauge their interest & responses to energy, feel, humor, etc

4) Record in studio. My engineer gives suggestions on what makes the song work.

5) Send to an guitarist friend for input.

6) Finally, make adjustments in instrumentation, vocal styling, lyrics & put it out for mass consumption.

At any given point in the process I'm ready to make changes or throw out the tune. If a song is to have any success it needs bold & thorough evaluation. Ego checked at the door. Mind open. Mouth closed. Do a lot of listening...to others. But, a stronger development is just listening to your gut. If something is even slightly amiss your gut should tell you. If you love everything in a song you wrote than sleep on it & listen again the next day. Ask yourself: would I play this in front of Bono, or Elton John, or whoever your music hero is? Maybe that's a bit harsh. But maybe that's the true litmus test.

We keep all the unfinished stuff on our ftp - then share it among other musicians / friends. It would be nice to extend this mechanism to a larger extent - I think soundcloud is on the right direction. Maybe a "musicians only" last.fm where you get in touch with other musicians with similar tastes/styles and exchange advices. I don't believe in a few universal "tutors" or "expert" who pretend to give you hints on your music - especially now, with so many small niche-fragmented audiences and styles.

derek

i trust my own instincts. i know i am a very good songwriter. i know my taste, and most importantly, i am at the point in my life, where i write what comes. i figure the songs are out there, i just sort of grabbed them. the last thing i want is some bozo's like taxi, evaluating my songs. their criteria is quite wacked. it would be great for american idol, but i'd rather put a needle in my eye. i'm sure this probably isn't helpful, but at least i responded. as woody would say, " take it easy, but take it", james manganello, workhouse poets

there is a site called www.tracktesting.com that do this. they will do one for free I think. We stumbled across it and did it as it was free, then if the track does well they suggest you pay them to distribute your stuff... of course everyone here is quite rightly with ceedee baby, so no sell there :)

Good idea though Derek, if done without the vested interests. Sorry if someone in the 549 replies above already said this... I only managed to read a couple of hundred and my eyes went blurred :(

I usually start with a scratch track...a couple of instruments so he can feel the vibe and a vocal...give it to my guitar player, and he'll tweak a few chords if needed and start messing with lyrics. he'll send what he changed back to me, and the song will continue to build until we're happy with what we've got, and then the "real" recording begins.

This is a complex subject. Opinions are very subjective to say the least.

1) Most people you play a song for will have a style of music they prefer and everything else is crap to them.

2) Every song I had RECORDED was turned down many times BY PUBLISHERS IN THE MUSIC INDUSTRY. Some even went so far to say I was not a songwriter and had no business writing songs. I guess they did not get laid that day.

3) I was at a Taxi event some years ago with a panel of “Music Industry Experts” who were commenting on songs. An extremely well written song popped up that was done in the forties style. They ripped it to shreds, stomped on it, if there was toilet paper available they would of……. Within six months there was a resurgence of this style of music and songwriting several landed in the top ten on Billboard charts.

4) A major music publisher told me about a song she worked for over a year to no avail. It was turned down over and over. Then she got the song recorded and it went top ten. The same people who turned down the song called her and were angry that she did not present the song to them.

5) If anybody had a clue Artists like the Beatles would not have been turned down 30 times before someone got on board.

6) I once took a very highly touted class on songwriting by Pat somebody or other from Berkleey school of music. His course was centered on reading the classics half way through the class I realized he knew nothing about songwriting. What a critiquer he would have made.

7) Usually if a song is very much like a top ten song people will like it. If it is fresh new and original aka “different” people will not like it. Every major artist was different and broke the mold. So who is to say.

I am a songwriter with a bent for electronic devices to color and add ambience to sound. I spent a lifetime analyzing what in a record made self centered me emote. I wanted to understand what it was that stirred my soul and made me find; happiness, sadness, joy, exhilaration etc. I analyze songs that move me until I understand the ambiance of the song. When I write I work to capture that ambiance tone with in the framework of my own song. This approach has also come under fire more times than I can say. Also I find musicians are not a good sounding board, as most are not song writers. Ever listen to a great top forty club band who could play the top ten as good as the artist. Every lick and riff is perfect. Then they will play an original song and you find your self wondering where all those great chord sequences, riffs, licks and dynamics went. Have they learned nothing. Being a musician and being a songwriter are two different things. All this lead me to please myself, please myself, please myself Is that enough echo?

P.S. I play the songs for my cat. I know I have a winner if later in the day, he starts meowing the chorus of my song or leaves me a present in the cat box.

ng or leaves me a present in the cat box.

Here is the music I wrote that my cat liked

Surf

http://www.muzlink.com//artist.do?id=2333

Trans/Electronica

http://www.muzlink.com//artist.do?id=2352

Religious/Spiritual/Jewish

http://www.muzlink.com//artist.do?id=2332

or

Jeffjanning.com

Country (Ronnie Reed), Rock (Johnny Quick), Retro Rock Snocap engine on My Space or Jeffjanning.com

Derek,

Great subject!

First my wife hears it. She's a good judge because she brutally tells me when I'm on to something and when I'm not. I also get together with a group of other songwriters and we'll let each other hear works in progress to beat up and offer suggestions on lyrics to key choice, etc. The songs that get past those hurdles go into a performed set. I see how they are received by an audience. which is a whole other test. The other songs hang around and get tweaked for a while or trashed to make room for the new ones to go through the process.

when I've recorded a new song i immediately upload it to the myspace profile:

http://www.myspace.com/weareeachotherdotcom

and the imeem profile:

http://imeem.com/amnion

other people's opinions aren't something we usually solicit. i find that can impose boundaries on our creative process, and boundaries aren't what we're trying to define with the music we make.

thanks for getting in touch derek,

aaron

Our main question is: Would you buy it?

We are in the music business to develop artist that can hold an audience, connect with them, & create moments for them to remember.

AND, to make enough money to support our touring.

I do much of what you ask in your topic. Since I am a Christian, and write songs for God, my first objective is to please Him. I figure if He is pleased, probably humans will like it also, but it isn't always the case. I just trust my 'inner Spirit' and go for it. I try to work out of abundance, hopefully bettering my chances of coming up with some good material. Music, like art, is so subjective, and it depends on the listeners likes and dislikes... does everyone hang the same type of art on their wall? Nope. So, half the battle is finding your audience. Those that play live have an advantage, because they have instant focus groups. Those like me who just love to create songs but don't play live, (yet(: it is much tougher. I do email MP3's to a group of my friends, asking for their honest opinion. I also post songs at MySpace, and that has been a great place to get feedback. I've had to be creative, but it's been fun. It can also be discouraging, because of the volume of material, digital instruments, ease creating music, and everyone just seems to be into their own thing. I recently came across this qoute: "I've been through the golden age of … 'till now, and what I always tell artists is keep producing and sharpening your skills," he said. "Always try different sounds and styles and never get caught in the record label talk. Master your sound and business first on your own, and if the labels come you'll be 100% ready. Try to avoid show scammers who make you pay for gigs and run off with your money, and fake label A&Rs who say they're with fake companies just to hear your music and take ideas.” Who said it? Hip hop artist Ques.

Our local songwriters association (SUSWA) meets weekly for what we call "Tune-smithing". If someone has a song they are working on, they bring a dozen or so copies of lyrics to pass around. During the workshop everyone that wants to, shares the new tune they are working on. Listeners make comments either vocally, or on the page, then everyone turns them back into the writer. The writer can either use the feed back to tweak their song, or leave it and call it good. Afterwards we all head down to the open mic, and that's the place that someone can showcase a finished new tune and get some audience feedback.

I usually ask my wife for her feed back and praises, I also like to play the rough copy back a few times on cassette and disc until it sounds right for me.

If I'm writing a song for strictly commercial purposes, I want it to sell itself or sell something else, then feedback can be a very useful tool to reach that goal, and I will seek it out and apply it. Usually playing it for friends who I respect their opinion, or someone from the demographic I'm targeting.

Most of the time I'm not motivated by commerce, I'm strictly in art mode, what materializes is what gets printed, feedback is irrelevant. If it sells, great, but I can't let outside influence dictate or steer my creative process in anyway, or the result will be impure. I will play it for people, sometimes ask what they think, but nothing ever gets changed based on their opinion, I just like to know if it is touching them on a personal level.

Well what I do

First, I play it for a few friends, too see what they think.

Second, I branch out to more

people some well know some not.

But I would ask what they think?

And I get reviews

I would even take it to my local paper or other bands get opinions

Much Love and Light

Richard Spasoff

I belong to a songwriting group here in Nashville that meets every Monday for critiquing each other's songs. I find that helpful. However, one needs to be careful, especially around other songwriters because you will always find someone who thinks his or her idea is better, no matter how good your song is, so I recommend only changing a song if and when you personally think a suggestion is better.

The biggest mistake I observe here in Nashville is songwriters without cuts taking a suggestion if someone has a cut but ignoring suggestions from someone who doesn't. Often, someone with cuts makes a bad suggestion and someone without any cuts makes a good one.

Thus, my only rule of songwriting is, if someone has as many cuts as Bob Dylan or, if someone who has never written a song makes a suggestion, I recommend always using the suggestion if you personally think it makes your song better and never using a suggestion if you don't personally think it makes your song better.

If you don't learn to do this, other writers will shred your songs, because they will always have suggestions, many of which are not the best idea; only you have the total vision and perspective of what you are trying to do with your song and you have to learn to protect your song against often bad suggestions from someone who only casually hears or looks at your lyrics on paper once and really doesn't know very well what you are trying to do.

try it out at a live gig.....and you will know what is not working....rework it.....then try it again at another gig.....and over the coarse of a few months it starts to grow into what it is going to become....and its time to record it....i guess i should add prior to trying it at a live gig....you work out 4 trac versions and listen to those in your car or where ever...and work those a bit....then teach it to your band mates....and it gets reworked a bit there prior to the insersion into the set list.....

Yeah, this is an interesting topic. Ultimately, we as songwriters have to get up and believe in what we're playing. I think that if the message is real, from the soul/heart, then that's a great start.

Because the arts are so subjective and dependent on factors such as venue, clientele, mood, etc..

For instance - playing acoustic soul stuff at a dive bar craving cover songs that they can sing along to whilst getting plowed is not good. However, being in the artsy districts of some cooler cities will yield more of a welcoming feel.

Garageband.com & acidplanet.com are a couple sites that come to mind immediately for feedback/critiques.

Again the major issue with these is that some kid juiced up on prozac piping ICP isn't going to get that acoustic soul song either and will poo all over it.

A school like Berklee would yield educated, insightful, helpful feedback (for students and workshops). #1, it's a jazz/contemporary school #2, it's in Boston... both with a myriad of experiences and options, etc..

Anyway, music, like a lot of things should be experimented/tested, the limits pushed, and any molds broken. WHY NOT?! We write songs for a reason, let's remember that reason when we hit the stage or studio and do our best to make listeners feel as close to that same vibe as possible, or at least something cool :)

As long as the mentor, venue, workshop (whatever feedback vehicle) is in the same context (credible and respected and in the same genre/style), then it should be helpful.

This inspired a song feedback group I just created on myspace. Please join and let's get started helping each other.

http://groups.myspace.com/songfeedback

I didn't think I had an approach until I thought about it.

If I am working on a few songs that have a verse, chorus, bridge and possible intro., I then jam with a drummer friend of mine. Out of three to six song ideas, I find out quickly what is working and what feels like work. I then take the recording of this jam, listen to it a day or so later, and fine tune.

After this stage I tend to introduce a bass player, or another neutral instrument to make my final decision. If there is energy in the room, and the dudes are having fun, I then feel I am on the right track. I will then take that recorded jam and start planning for record.

After doing some rough recordings, drum machine-scratch vocals,etc....I attend a few party's and slip them in the sound system. This is where reality sets in. If people seem to like it, or not even notice-this means good. If people start saying things like "what is this &^$*#&*" or who put this ($(^it on!?".....I am usually the first guy to say "I dunno?"

I have used www.garageband.com to provide some very interesting reviews. I have found that this forum is generally musicians, providing some great feedback. I still hold the #1 All-time spot in Experimental Rock for a song titled

"Well Gone Dry"....Yeeee Haaaaa!

Stepping completely outside my safety-zone I decided to enter a few guitar competitions in Buffalo NY,

http://guitarcompetition.org/history.asp

and San Francisco CA.

http://hero.guitarplayer.com/

I used these forums to test may songs. I converted songs into instrumentals "guitar competitions" and watched for the reactions. Well.......I took first place at "The North American Rock Guitar Competition 06" in Buffalo NY.

....And came in second for Guitar Player's "Guitar Hero III competition 07"! Yikes! This was quite extreme, even for me!

Any-who.......

Les is More

Normally I have a pretty good idea what I want to do with a song when i get a worked idea. When it's at a reasonable draft state I normally run it by my girlfriend. She has a great ear and always spots the wavering bits.

I'm of the school that if you make it bland, repetative, and pretty mindless you probably have a top 10 hit on your hands. But who wants to do that I'd rather have some originality, thought, metaphor and layers to a song which probably spells commercial disaster. You have to be true to your ideals. So go listen to some of my stuff at http://www.myspace.com/velvetrazorrocks listen to some songs and tell me if I am spouting nonsense.

Hi Derek,

Thanks for all your emails, interesting and helpful.

I do have a mentor and I trust him, he listens over and over cause he's usually in the same part of the house (my favorite spot for songwriting is at the kitchen table)he is my partner and a fine musician/ piano tech. who is very honest, he knows my music.

I do play a song for close friends, maybe... but...I do songs mainly for myself, and not for making money, so the whole process is different. I do appreciate critique, and when I get it, I sometimes use it, sometimes not. Music for me is a release, a biproduct of who I am and a situation that occurs. Surely the road not to success eh?

I am from that era of the teacher/ Mentor approach. In my songwriting nurturing period I was studying with either Alex deGrassi or Ed Gerhard. I would often perform a composition for them and then get their feedback. Now I feel quite proficient and what I like to do now is let the song evolve on it's own. It seems the more I play a piece some of me gets in there yet some of the songs personallity leads me in that direction. I treat them like children and they do grow and have their own identities..weird but works for me.

I just finished by 7th CD. I start with the usual stuff - get opinions for friends and play the song live.

Then the next step is I make a rough draft CD and a questionnaire. I invite my network of about 40 people consisting of recording artists, fans, producers and a few people not terribly familiar with my music, to listen to the rough draft and complete the questionnaire. About 25 agreed last CD. The questionnaire asks to rate the songs on a scale of 1 - 10, indicate your favorites, suggest was to improve any or all, and as feedback on titles for the songs and CD, etc.

I send them either a physical CD or downloads by YouSendIt and a PDF document. After waiting about 3 - 4 weeks I compile the feedback, use what seems most helpful to refine the songs and decide which will "make" this CD. I started with 15 songs this time and ended up with 11 on my new CD.

Not only did I get some great feedback on the compositions, but I ended up changing the title of the CD and am very happy I did. The new title is Beauty and Fire and will be out April 2009.

Hello derek,

Wow, what a response to this question.

It is some years since I wrote a song, and a great deal of them have done well.

The latest writing was a guitar instrumental called "Riverbank Ramble", and one of our top guitarists of the 70s and 80s, Peter Posa, asked me while Noelene and I were on tour with him, if he could take my instrumental for himself, it so impressed him.

I wrote it in a couple of days, as I had been looking for a new piece to include on a new album, and even before I'd recorded it, I was receiving positive feedback on it, several even suggesting it would go well as the theme tune for a western movie.

But I have always felt my wife Noelene was, and still is, my best critic, she says how it is, and I accept it. Whether I am writing a song, or doing a guitar piece, or learning someone else's song.

If it does not suit me, she will tell me, and I have possibly had reservations about it myself, anyway.

We just feed off each other, but the ultimate test, is to sing a new song at a concert, and await any comments afterwards.

I soon learn if it is below par, or fantastic, or whatever.

In more recent times, a good guage for us, is the times certain tracks have been downloaded by people from our CD Baby sites, and we get laods of pleasure from that.

Keep up the great work.

Rex Franklin

Since I write children's music I perform it for all different types and groups of children, parents and teachers and look for their reactions, movements, and responses. They are the best critics since they're the ones the music is written for. I can usually tell right away if the music engages them or leaves them feeling disinterested. I also listen to their creative and imaginative input and make changes always keeping it a work in progress.

My process is as follows, usually I will write a 24-48 bar melody or riff, either with the daw or the guitar, then reassess the piece over a few listens, if the piece has body and sounds like a viable piece I'll present it to my wife who is a grinder of a critic but has a fabulous ear and if it gets a thumb up I'll return to the studio and keep writing, I'm odd because most of my music is already finished in my head by the time I actually sit down to compose it

I no longer ask for help to improve or finish a song except for the arrangement.Sometimes my producer will suggest one less chorus or a different order for the verses. I often write songs that can be performed in different genres so I will take it to a blues jam, then an open mike and then maybe a bluegrass band.Eventually it will find it's own way to be played.

When I write a new song I try to fall in love with it. If I listen it will even tell me its name. After that I enter it in Finale and play it back and listen more. Then off to the gig to try it out with the band. They will go for it, then after the set they make their comments. It can go either way but I believe in them and they are most always right. "That one is hard to play, that one is hard to understand, that one is a great song. Where do you get this stuff?"

As you can see it varies, but mostly I know when I get it right and if necessary I can stick up for it. But I'll have to admit there are a lot of songs sitting in the back files of the computer that just didn't make it but I can't delete them, a parent thing I guess. Don Alberts

If I'm collaborating on a song, for a musical comedy for example, the composer and I will argue, cajole, and harangue each other until we come up with something both of us can live with.

If I'm writing a song by myself, I'm uninterested in feedback until it's finished for me. Then I start playing it for people. If it works, it works. Otherwise, there are more songs to be written.

Writing this now, I'm unable to decide which process I like better.

It may sound arrogant or whatever, but I don't really want feedback for songs anymore... I'm happy to write mostly from intuition and experimentation and create what I like. I honestly don't care if it's perfect, if there even is such a thing, especially in the eyes of anyone else. It is what it is, and I've learned to trust my own perspective and judgment to be very happy with that... When other people do like it as it is, that's terrific, but I believe I would still put out the same albums, regardless. There's a song on my upcoming album that I don't expect to be anyone's favorite... I could probably replace it with something catchier or more straightforward. But it has personal resonance and I think it still fits well on there among the other tracks... so it's an important part of the "album" in the same sense that a photo album depicts different aspects of your life during a particular time. Those are the kinds of albums I like best, that are like "musical photo albums" and have at least some of those kind of tracks, and not just 12 songs that some producer thought would make good singles.

I will always gladly accept and process feedback and criticism from any source, but I never feel an obligation to act upon it. Now, the exception is if I'm writing something with another person, or have a producer involved, then yeah, there may be some very direct feedback and criticism that has to be worked out... In that case I find that whenever there's a clash about something, where one person really likes something but the other wants something different, there's usually a third (or fourth or fifth) option that is better than either of the two previously fought for options.

But the problem with "song feedback" from outside sources is that if one person (no matter who they are or what an "expert" they are) tells you something that they really don't like or that they think could be better about your song, and you change it for the sake of what their particular taste is, you may be changing something that many many other people might have really liked just fine as it was. Even if there's a consensus about something from several people, it still doesn't necessarily mean you should change it. Sometimes the author/artist really does know best about their own work, and maybe only a handful of people will appreciate it, but so what? Some things are meant to be "cult" or have a niche audience.

Here's an anecdote that describes why I'm wary of songwriting workshops and "feedback parties" and such... Polyclitus, it is said, once sculpted two statues at the same time: one in his living room, in public view, and one in his bedroom, which he worked on privately and kept wrapped in a tarpaulin. When visitors came by, they would comment on the public work, saying, "The eyes aren't quite right" or "That thigh is too long," and Polyclitus would incorporate their suggestions. All the while, however, he kept the other statue a secret. Both works were completed at about the same time and were mounted in the city square in Athens. The statue that had been designed by committee was openly mocked and ridiculed. The statue he'd done by himself was immediately proclaimed a transcendental work of art. People asked Polyclitus, "How can one statue be so good and the other so bad?" And Polyclitus answered, "Because I did this one and you did that one."

I have always found that playing my music in front of a group of people tells me a lot. More than anything anyone can say to me, it is what I feel while they listen. If I am embarrassed or unsure about any section I take note. It is a moment of truth. If I am paying attention I will know what I need to change.

I usually sing and play the song for the band and see how they react to the song, completed. If I can see in their faces, that they're already running over their parts on the instruments, or they reach to get their instrument, on the first hearing, I figure, it's a pretty good song for us to perform together, or record. The only other measure, is an audience, for me. If it engages them in an emotional way, it's a good song. If they decide in droves, to get up and go get a hotdog, or make a trip to the restroom, in the middle of a new tune, you need to rework or scrap it.

I don't usually ask anyone directly, what they think about the tune. If they feel the need to tell me, that's fine. My husband seeks advice in the process of writing a song, but I would never do that. That's just not productive for me.

I'm my worst critic. One out of ten ideas of mine get finnished.-I like to leave the idea for a few days before getting serious with it-- most of the time I'll come back to it and say to myself--"what the hell was I thinking??" But every once in a while it'll come together. I love it when a song takes less than hour to write.

I began writing poetry at 9. By the time I was 21, a friend helped me to escape from all the obnoxious arrogant pretentious fame seekers I knew and hade grown up with in New York City. It was then that I wrote my first song...in a Ford Fairlane Convertable heading to California with a friend, now a beloved and famous musician/songwriter. He gave me my first guitar and taught me three songs: Caanan Land, House of the Rizing Sun and one of his originals. I felt so liberated. By and by, I wrote my first song: Love Is the Answer because I was desperate to get away from those family members (drug addicts and thugs), who had so mutilated me that I really wanted to kill them. (An artist must have fuel to create...and transforming my pain and grief became my fuel and lifted me up instead of taking me down.) I thought they didn't deserve to live. But it wasn't up to me. I knew that, but didn't want to fall into the trap and spend the rest of my life in prison. So I turned to the Great Spirit and begged for courage and strength and self control. And whoa!...the Muses arrived and gave me the song.

From then on, the melodies and lyrics followed like rain on a hot summer day in Arizona. I'm 66 years old now and have written more songs than I can keep in my hand. If I don't play them, I forget the progressions. But when I play them, the world falls away and I am whole again. The Spirit within turns on and nourishes me.

For me, songwriting is survival. I don't care if you like it or not. I don't care if it sells or is forgotten. It is already in the ether. I put it there and it is there forever. Those who need it, will find it in themselves. Life is about inspiration. Life without inspiration is not living. And I am still alive. I just finished my 9th album and feel as young as a flower. But I am almost ready to return to the Spirit world and leave this body...and body of work.

If you write songs for the money and waste your precious energy trying to contrive something that is not completely honest and real...you will fall into the ego trap. It's a dead end.

Hopefully others will love you for your music because it a refuge for them and leads them up the Sacred Path of Being. Being is always true, never contrived, never created to seduce falsely. Inspiration is what we're looking for.

Just be honest. The songs you write will out live you. Don't leave a bunch of lies and conceit. The music is the best medicine for all that ails the soul. Respect it. Honor it. Never capitulate to trying to impress. Just be real. Just feel. We can't hide. Even a cat will know if you're a shallow phoney. A caterpiller will flee from you. But when we're true, there is a ringing in the Universe. Harmonics the material ear doesn't hear, but we notice that all of life responds to it and is grateful for it.

Just write your songs when they overflow from your heart. If you sit and contemplate that you must write a song tonight, the sound will be flat and it will offend the inner ear, which is where we hear the Truth.

The music I've been given to write pours spontaneously and it heals my broken wings so I can fly again. Fly with me and don't be afraid. Sometimes a year or two even will go by, and you'll wonder, will I ever write another song?...am I dried up and dead. But do not worry little bird, there are many more songs that you will write. But you are not in control of it. It controls you. The music has written my Life as I walked dumbly, seeking pleasure and full of trickery in my early days. Now the music is such a great comfort to me. Let the Universe write your songs. Then they will pour out miraculously and refresh you in a way that food and drinking and drugs never can.

In the meantime, be a friend, share and reciprocate because friendships bring Peace to World. Learn to be a true friend and you will find the Muses delight in your honesty and simplicity so much that they will gift you again and again with masterpiece after masterpiece.

Of course if you want to make money and go on tour, you may burn out and become disgusted with yourself and with Life. Music is a Sacred Journey. We all have music within. There's no need to force it. When it comes out, give it freely. The world is so starving for the real vibration. Feed the world and be thankful that you are so blessed an individual and so privelged to have something beuatiful that vibrates in the hearts of others. Don't let it go to your head. That to me is the greatest wealth and surpasses any royalties one can earn doing back flips thru hoops of fire to please the Backer. The Almighty twisted Backer.(smile...only kidding) Go forth with your music and be happy that you can still sing and have hands to play the songs of your Life. Aloha,Harmony

(Owl Woman Still Standing)

myself I first get all copywrite in order, before I let anyone here my music, some be finished some do not but I still pass out a few demos just to get the word out and the rest is history thanks to cdbaby i'm doing very check us out @ www.cdbaby.com/mgmusic2

As much as I value feedback from many sources on material that will be placed on an album - for my soon to be released CD I queried loyal fans, other songwriters and friends and family to help narrow down the choices - I choose what songs I sense are meant to go past my living room and out into the world.

Ultimately, this is my creative process, my voice, my connection to the voice of creation and I need to trust it in order to be unique and authentic.



Of course, if I am trying to write hits I will need to follow a formula and objective criteria could determine whether or not I am succeeding. But is this art? I don't think so.

I believe that as we mature as artists, as we move beyond the realm of "Me" to the meeting place of "We", we can accurately gauge the depth and value of the songs we create.

Oona

Ourstage has given me some ideas, as well as the critiques from TAXI. I think the best "critique" comes from a complete stranger. In fact, I've presented songs (not disclosing the fact that I wrote them) and asked for unbridled opinions. Honesty is the best policy. Brutal answers make me sharper, and "kind" responses make me a little suspicious!

Charm can be deceitful.

Good blog here.

Wanda

I like to test a new song in front of an audience, without any hullabaloo. I prefer not to tell anyone that's its homegrown for awhile. That way people give fairly accurate feedback. If they start requesting the song then its good. If you get more dancers than the covers your playing better yet, and if they tell you that song sucks and ask you why you played it, well it was by request, and you hope they understand. Just don't tell them who requested the song (you),Life is fun if you live it with a twist, Kevin

I just let you hear it where I've posted it as a FREE dl for awhile until it's on the upcoming cd, "The fantom and me"

here:

www.circleblue.net/letsdance.html

any takers?

Hi Dereck,

I have placed mix/mastered songs on a CD for folks to listen to, or buy online. Played them at live shows with my band for response. I have submitted CDs to magazines or newspapers for music review, submitted to record companies, and to radio stations.

My experience has been that many of the "So called music experts" are more about strictly "Their Point of View", or in other words, their own self interest. Although I do want the opinion of the "So called experts", to me the real judge is the Public.

There have been many a band or song that was rejected by some Record AR Expert, to have it finally released to the Public, who judged it a HIT.

So, criticism is good, but just remeber that not everyone will like your music. It's up to you to find your audience.

Art Carter, Orlando, Florida

I don't really let anybody hear anything until I'm in love with it. The song doesn't have to be finished by any means, but basically, if I play a verse for somebody, it's already a good verse.

The band gets to hear it first, but they usually don't say much except, "oh you know what would sound cool? ... *plays guitar*"

I also have a songwriting mentor that I go to when a song is finished. She will usually have additions or a few suggestions, and I go with them about 60% of the time.

Once I have lyrics typed out, I send them through e-mail to all of my friends just to get some feedback... the fewer responses I get, the more I need to work on it.

And, of course, the final song is played live and if the audience is feeding energy back my way the first time they hear a new song, then I know it's a keeper.

- Emma

I'm really surprised by most of the replies here. Do painters 'focus group' their paintings? Do dancers allow the audience to participate in the choreography process? I create music to express MYSELF, and not pander to the vagaries of public opinion. I want my music to be a direct reflection of what I'm feeling at the time I compose the tune; not an compromised amalgam of what others feel my end result should be. It seems like most people here are writing 'product', and not art. There's nothing wrong with that, but let's be really clear what we're talking about here.

Perform Live.

When you perform live, you can see and feel the reaction of the people in the audience.

This will instantly tell you how people are responding to your song and your performance.

The more you have refined your song, and sharpened your song writing skills, the more you will have confidence in the quality of your material, and confidence of the reaction you will get when you perform it live, or represent it on a recording.


AARON WOLFSON

http://www.aaronwolfson.com

I generally work a song till I'm satisfied with it and then let my husband hear it. If it's good, I'll hear him humming it before too long.

About 10 years ago, I worked with an excellent songwriting coach who taught me a lot of basics for creating a great song. He gave me songwriting critique for $15/week for 6 months and would listen to anything and everything I sent every week. I truly noticed that even I liked what I was writing better after I worked with him.

One of the previous posters was correct though. Music is subjective. A couple of my songs that I was told by the pro probably wouldn't get radio play were the first the DJ played when I got a local on-air interview. One of them even won a songwriting contest. (The coach I worked with was excellent at allowing me to keep my creativity while giving me advice as to what "sold" a song - He'd been an A&R rep for a reputable label and was even recommended as a coach by that label after he left that position)

I highly recommend working with a professional for a time when you're honing your skills.

Hi Derek,

I write music not for gain money, just for music records to be more and more in my Repertoire,

I write The Brain for Symphony Orchestra during my wife's brain surgery, inspiration came by it self how difficult is some one have brain surgery and get paralyzed.

This music is online published in www.sibeliusmusic.com

Honestly, I write songs for myself, not for other people. And I have peculiar taste! lol

I'll play a work in progress for friends if I'm pleased with the way it's turning out, but I'm not really seeking approval or suggestions. I'm just going to do whatever I set out to do anyway.

Here is an example of what I am doing now.

I have a instrumental song that I am working on. I recorded a short simple 1 minute version of it (a preliminary sketch if you will)

I gave this out as a free download track to my mailing list. And asked everyone what they think of it.

Next week I am going to post a video of me working on the album (4 minutes long) version, on youtube.

I am thinking as the recording progresses, I will post more vids of the recording process. I will get feedback and hopefully get people into the song before it gets released.

As a singer/songwriter I need to wrtie the songs that I feel. I write a song when inspiration strikes. I write the whole thing (most often) in one sitting. I play the song until I have it memorized. Let it sit a couple days and then come back and play it again.

If I still like it at that point, it's usually because the music is good and the lyrics mean something. Sometimes it feels finished and perfect, but other times I tweak a chord, the progression, the rhythm, or the lyrics--whatever needs to be nudged to make the whole work jive.

Then I play it at a coffee shop and if people like it I keep it. If not it stays in a notebook until a rainy day when I look back over older songs that didn't make the cut. Then sometimes I'll revive it.

The key to good song writer is to KEEP WRITING! Do it all the time. Don't worry about salvaging eveery song. Some songs are not worth the effort. Feel free to keep them recorded on a tape and in a noptebook, but then move on.

I've written over 600 songs over the past 11 years, but I only play the cream of the crop--which is about 100 of them. Every song will not be a hit. You can't even guarentee that every song will be decent, but if you continue to write the good ones will come. You know when you've got a hit. You can feel it. ANd when you play it on stage, it's electric.

\m/

Ry E)

www.RyEdwards.com

After the song is finished I send a link to my friends including my producer friends and professional musicians. I'm interested in hearing back about any possible "sore thumbs". I want to fix anything bad that sticks out that I'm not aware of. It's an effort to avoid future embarrassment.

When getting critiqued it's very important that I know something about the person giving the critique. I need to get a frame of reference-- which artists they do or don't like-- which genres they do or don't listen to. Otherwise I don't know how much weight to assign to their critique.

Hey Derek, What I usually do is, I write the song, Then don"t listen to it for a few days. I usually go back and change sentences or just words or a word, then after I feel it is right I let my band members hear it. I have a few people that I trust there opinions and if they say it sucks. I put it on the back burner and start with something new. Tommy B

Derek,

It usually takes me a couple of years to write a new albums worth of songs. When I get a great idea, I'll usually demo it, & play it for my friends who are also long time pro musicians & songwriters.

Also, I sometimes play it for my guitar students, & watch their face's to get an honest opinion.

Also, when I still can't get a song out of my head a year or 2 later, that is when I know it will be included on a new release. It has to be memorable, & stand the test of time to make the cut.

My best advise to fellow songwriters- Take your time, & don't release anything that doesn't turn out exactly the way you intended it. Anything you write will have your name on it, & you can't UN-release a song!

Music is always "To the ear of the beholder", so one person might absolutely love the structure and sound of one song, and dislike another song - while the next person could very well be the exact opposite. When reviewing artists songs, I try to be very unbias, mentioning their strong musical points - then offering my opinion on what might need improving.

I never judge a song by it's genre.

derek,stupendous idea,next round how do we create a song??melody rhythm harmony poetry technolgy create the universal symphony.visitmyspace/utube/kopterkojak m email kopterkojak@gmail.com kojak

This will sound weird to many of you, but I play songs for my cats. If they stay in the room and listen, ears forward, I keep it. If they leave or sit with ears folded back, I ditch it or fix it. The cats so far have been the best judges of what works for me. It seems to work for covering other people's tunes as well.

For the most part, I'm not sure if great songwriting can be taught . . either you've got a poet's soul or you don't.

Form and style can be learned, but IF you have the innate artistry necessary,the only way to develop it is to write, write, and write some more. Eventually, your intuition tells you when you're on the right track.

In the early years, I turned out a song almost every day or two for almost a decade . . when I took stock of my output every six months or so, I'd weed out the dross (usually about 50% of everything I wrote). After several years, my quality got better to where it is now: 80% pretty good, 15% self-indulgent crap, and 5% . . that's when it works out terrific and I can't explain why (experience, I guess).

But,like they say,if you can write just one song like a "Yesterday" you've got it made.

If you can find someone to collaborate with, that's great . . I've never found that person (even working with some of the best songwriters I've ever known, I've noticed it usually doesn't work because our styles clash).

One 'tip' that works for me: I rarely revisit a song . . that is, I try to finish it in one go, whilst the inspiration is roaring.

I simply don't leave the table until the song is complete . . and that staying 'in the zone' is how I've written 99% of more than a thousand songs. I discovered early that, upon trying to return to a song days or weeks later, I could never recover the initial intuitive 'chain reaction' that led to my best songs.

Whether a song takes 20 minutes or 5 hours to write,the experience is always the same . . when I'm in the writing frame of mind, there's no strain or labour, it just pours out onto the page.

Once you have your basic theme or hookline, just flow with it . . no pretensions or forcing it . if it's in you, it will simply appear.

I see how the audience reacts. If they like it, great. If they don't, I try it again maybe, in front of a different kind of audience. If it still doesn't get much of a reaction I probably wouldn't keep performing it (or record it). If it does well, I'd keep playing it and probably record it. I don't think professional critics are very accurate; they're notorious for giving horrible comments about songs that (in reality) have already won Grammys, etc. Plus -- how do you "evaluate" a song? Unless you see how it works in front of a live audience -- I don't see what other standard you can judge it by, really. It either moves people or it doesn't. The rest is just, well, posturing. IMHO

First it gets turned into a fruity loops file so that parts can be soloed and compared to each other.

Second the rest of the band has a look-see.

Close friends comment.

We take it live and the friends that have already heard the music judge crowd reaction.

Finally, we ask opinions of the crowd after the gig.

We look for criticism but most people have no idea what they are talking about. You can change something completely unrelated to their critique and they suddenly love the song because the bit they 'hated' is now 'in context'. So you have to be smart about what you take on board or you'll end up with the most generic P.O.S. possible.

I have written more than 100 songs. Only 15 have been published. All 15 are related to my book, "Fine Tunes"

The first tune was "Midnight On Port Melbourne Pier". Inspiration for this song is in my bio. See reference to "Castel Felice". I went ahead with all the songs for the book and released them on CD. I later published the book. I like all the songs myself but consulted nobody more experienced than I. So I guess this is why they are not as successful as I hoped. Perhaps they need reworking or scrapping. Their style is not popular with the music experts of today either.

People who read the book like them and their relevance to my story.

I never went to Berklee, Julliard or any slide rule music school, so I am a musical ignoramus.

However Derek, thank you for your patience with me.

MTMM

I was raised on classical music, and was trained to think like a classical music composer. Even though I do a real hodge-podge of Rock, Classical, and Electronica, I don't really have anyone to bounce my unfinished ideas off of. It's just not been something that was suggested to me in my training. It might help me to find a few folks locally that could get together and do that sort of thing, but I'm not sure if the results would be any different. Of course, if I was too blind to know when one of my ideas totally sucked, then my inability to be self-critical would probably drive me to audition for American Idol, or something as lame. I probably have over 1000 unfinished songs, and only about 50 finished songs or instrumental pieces. Somewhere along the way, the unfinished songs began to bore me during the process. It could be a weakness in my approach to the craft...who knows, eh?

Hey Derek,

Cool thread!

When I think I am on to something I refine it fairly well over the course of a month or so coming back to it with fresh ears. Then I take it to an NSAI meeting and/or the song circle I run in Nyack, NY for critical feedback. I also do test drives at open mics in between to see how I remember it.

The main thing is I let it bake a bit and then cool on the windowsill before serving..

I tedn to work on my songs a lot before I play them for anyone else. My biggest help is my partner, Jay Elfenbein, who is also a composer. The only feedback he tends to give is where he thinks I'm not challenging myself enough with melody or changes, where some line sounds as if it's been done a thousand times. Then I'll go back to the drawing board and see if I can develop the line further. [I write jazz tunes, mostly.] In terms of words, I was a writer and poet before I wrote songs, so my words are pretty finely tuned, but if a few people think a phrase is awkward or a word could be imnproved, I'm open to listening. By now I listen to my gut about anything like that, and except for with Jay, my songs are fine-tuned before I play them for others.

When it comes to my music, I write it for me! Noone else has to like it. I write my experiences and the way I feel about them. If someone else likes it, good. If not, oh well.

I think you will find that even the superstars write songs that people don't like. Be true to yourself and it won't matter!

john

Well excuse the snobby reply, but personally if you need feedback on a song you're writing, you shouldn't be writing songs. If you're confident enough in your song writing ability you don't need other's opinions. That's the way I see it.

Thank god I'm at a point in my career where I don't really seek out, or care to know about how my songs sound to other people as long as I like them. I mean you hear so many people telling you how your music is awful and you have to be so great to be successful, then you turn on the radio and hear some of the most asinine garbage ever created in our short time on this planet! Kanye West , Beyonce, indeed! that shit sounds like the poems they give the 3rd graders to read in church on easter sunday! So how can I take the criticism of someone who considers that drivel to be "good music" seriously? My advice to all young artist, who seek out the validation of critics, demo reviews, and feed back, whenever they tell you you suck, turn on a top 40 station, it's the fame they hear, not the music. Keep playing. Keep growing.

For me, feedback is a complex and fragile thing. Once I've shared a piece I'm working on, it's no longer mine-- and there's usually some feeling of sadness when I let it out of the box! The first person I play a song for, is Joe, my husband. If he's not moved in some way, I know I need to work more....poor Joe--- such pressure!

I play it or send it to a few friends who's opinion I really value - which means I really like THEIR music a lot. Like Miten (Deva Premal & Miten) or Kit Walker, and a few others. Then I listen to their comments and change some things, because I know the clarity of the lyrics and flow of the music will improve.

One of the things I do is that I let non-musicians listen to it, and get feedback from a non-musician's stand point.

This is sometimes useful because they will listen to music differently from musicians most of the time.

Musicians tend to give you feedback like "Man, listen to that E7#9 chord over that groovin bass riff! That kicks ass!" for example.

Sometimes, a non-musician will just say, "Dude, your vocal SUCKS!"

You'll get half a dozen of the same comments and next thing you know, you start to realize that they have a point, and start taking vocal lessons.

This approach is not for everybody. But if you are in a position where you've been playing or recording for years and kind of getting there but are not quite making it, I think that asking for feedback from non musicians can help.

Usually, by the time someone hears a new song, it's done, or close to being done. I may email it to a couple of close songwriter friends. I also belong to SongRamp and StudioTrax.net which are good places to solicit comments. A good paid service is TAXI, of which I also belong and have gotten helpful critiques in the past, one of which lead to a music library deal! Of course, you'll get so many varied comments, that you'll have to decide which to take with a grain of salt, and which to take into consideration... Overall, it's your music--do what you want to if your heart says it's "right" and keep growing!

I'll usually bring it up at a band rehearsal and let my bandmates hear it, then I'll let friends hear it. Naturally I'll ask for honest opinions, though there are some folks who are so jaded and burnt, that absolutely nothing will move them...

I find that those songwriter forums are useful, too. Occasionally I'll be daring and actually start playing a new song out in public with the band-- we'll always get inquiries about the song from members of the audience. I think that's the most honest barometer.

Oh, and by the way--I always let my band members do their own original songs on our shows.

Wow! Very interesting.....

. I read most of the responses and I have to say it was an eye opener to read how many people not only don't want their creations critiqued but actually loathe people who offer the service for any financial gain. At the risk of sounding defensive I will say this.... I pride myself on doing critiques that focus on what the song at hand is trying to be, with great respect given to the genre. I don't critique for commerciality and ALWAYS preface the exchange with my notion that what I give people is only my opinion and should be viewed as "food for thought." If what I say doesn't make sense to the writer, I certainly don't want them doing it just because I think it would make the song better. I always say, "It's your song, not mine." That said, I pour my heart and soul into every critique I do being honest and nurturing at the same time. I never try to trash anyone because I don't want to squash anyones creativity. I feel like creating art is one of the most beautiful, precious endeavors there is. I LOVE writing songs.

I feel that one of the most valuable services I can provide for writers who are open to having their material reviewed is my ability to spot things I think they've done really well. Pointing out a brilliant moment in a song can be invaluable to the songwriter who might not even realize how good it is or more importantly might not know exactly what they did. It's alot easier to do it again if you take a moment to analyze things. As a teacher I always stress to writers that the ability to self - critique is an essential part of being a songwriter. I do believe that I can save writers some time in achieving this. I have written over 1200 songs and each one of them has taught me something. Writing is any writers best teacher.

I respect a songwriters right to write songs that are ONLY meant to please themselves but I must say that I come from a different place. When I finish a song the 1st thing I want to do is play it for someone. Given that, I have a responsibility to them to affect them in some way. A great song is one that makes people think, laugh, cry, wanna dance, reflect on their lives etc. The listener must feel something. In a literal story song we as writers owe it to the listener to make it relatively easy to follow the story. In a more abstract piece, I still feel like the listener should FEEL something when they listen to the song.

Personally I value feedback on my songs. My wife is a good editor and I also lean on several friends whose songwriting impresses me to the point that I know they can shed some light on moments in my songs that could be better. I also rely heavily on audiences for their organic reaction. They bring no baggage to the table. I have had much success as a writer in the music business but to this day I don't put much value in their opinions because they come to the table with lots of baggage. They are saddled with their goal of finding commercially viable material within the limited genre they work in.

I do agree that a writer should get a tingling toes/shivers up the spine kinda feeling when the song is done. When I play you a song, I love every word and every note. If I didn't, I'd still be working on it. That doesn't mean that I won't change something if someone has an opinion about a specific part that makes sense to me. Please...... point out something I missed. That's all I'm trying to do when I critique songs.

Thanks for asking Derek

In my experience (I am a professional composer/guitarist/composer and I run my own label), have released over a dozen albums in the last 14 years, had my 1st NO 1 hit on radio when I was 20, lucky~!) I NEVER EVER seek approval of music until it is actually produced and printed. The entire package is important (the album cover, your photos etc etc), not only individual pieces (this applies to all 'genres'). I do not know of writers who send each chapter of a new book off to friends or whoever (except maybe their editor when it's finished) for any 'critique'. Same with painting and film (unless you want to come across as a total amateur, in which case no one in the 'business' will take you seriously anyway). The homogenisation of music is largely due to this 'I want to please everyone' idea. Remain true to yourself and your own ideas, go look back in history and you'll see the the best and most successful artists (probably your heros) of all disciplines have created like this, what the best musician or friend think of your music/art means nothing. Remember, Philip Glass drove a taxi until he was 40 and only started getting any fame until a decade later. Just one of 100s of examples, imagine what he would have done if his friends or radio DJs heard his music and he actually took their criticism to heart...

What I do ask other composers for advice is based on how to create a suitable environment for making good productive music, how to approach music and life in its entirety, I do this often and it has helped me a lot. But 'what do you think of my song?' is never going to get an honest reply. Friends will be kind and critics will come with pre-packaged opinions based around the genre you're in and will compare you to other musics in that field. If that is your goal then that's cool too, just be prepared for it. Good luck!

I never ask for feedback on my own personal songs. If I felt I needed feedback on one, then the answer is clear - its not ready yet and needs more work before I can show it to the world. Then again, if I am writing music in a specific style for a specific purpose, such as an advertisement - I often ask for feedback, as I'm trying to achieve a particular musical goal - I'm not trying to express myself, I am in essence trying to express "someone else". Meaning, the needs of the advertiser in that case. With my own music however, the goal (for me) is specifically my own personal *self-expression*. Therefore, the concept of "feedback" is, well... out of context! :)

It is very nice when people hear your music and say I like that,and when you ask why sometimes the reason they like it is not what you expect.Your fantastic hook or riff hasn't registered it's the drum beat at the begining etc, and you think right OK.

At the same time if they don't like it it could be for the same reason's, but that's not the point, if you are writing for the money then that is going to influence how you write, if its because you have something to say or just like the idea that people can hear what you write like it or not,and that gives you buzz fine.Trying to create something different in music we all know is hard, but if we don't then music stagnates, so what I am saying is if nobody likes what you are doing it doesn't always mean that is rubbish it could be they are not just ready for it yet. Just say you could take music back in time and could play it, they would think the world had gone mad.They would not reconise it, so bear that in mind.

I write what I feel and don't worry about what other people think. I use to ask other people, but to many times worrying about other people just undermined my confidence.Its art to me.If your writing just to make money then I suppose getting feed back would make sense. I write for art and then hope it will make some money.

Holy crap and beat me with a spanner until the cows come home that is a lot of comments Derek my man!

What I normally do:

1. My sister at home hears the song first...well no one else around so she might as well ha ha!

2. Then we play the song at a gig and ask everyone what they thought.

3. At our last gig we played a new song and someone said the song had too many movements. So I'll play it live a few more times and ask if others think the same.

Some great posts in here by everyone, I'll try to read most of them man.

I don't play live so this is a tricky one for me. I used to play it to family/partner first but they have too many preconceived ideas about me and what I should sound like, so I find their opinions too restrictive. It's good to have a co-writer/collaborator to bounce off, that's my main source of critique. I once gave the finished songs to a bunch of people asking for a rating, and used this to determine the track order. That was very helpful.

BTW I have changed songs quite frequently after receiving constructive feedback.

I have long believed that music simply is, and for me no song is ever finished (just like people) but shows itself anew depending on who's presenting it. The act of creating music on any level is a beautiful thing in and of itself. Whether a song is good or bad is purely subjective to the listener. For me, the only purpose for vetting a song through audiences or my peers would be my own self improvement in terms of writing music and performance on stage. My focus is on the violin as a voice in funk and Jazz. The violin is unfortunately an unforgiving instrument. Once a note is played it's out there and cannot be taken back (true for any instrument - I guess). That said, my process usually is to try to achieve the vibe I hear/feel in my head when writing a song. If I am able to recreate the feeling when I listen to it after it's recorded I know it's "there". After that it's refinement of the melody then off to find the 1 in 1000 people who will relate to what I've done.

I have a vocal coach who is also a songwriter, and I can always take a new song with me to her on a singing lesson and get feedback not only on my vocals but also on the song. Also, I take the opportunity to get feedback on songwriting workshops, and when I post something new on my website or MySpace I try to let my friends know.

Although the question is about getting feedback on the song being written and, superficially, should be easy to answer - it isn’t. Whether we write in isolation or with collaboration makes a difference. I write as a solitary process and therefore it’s a pretty much finished article before it’s offered up for display. There is never any feedback within the process of composing the song. It’s a fiercely beautiful process into which I want no feedback or intrusion.

I’ve averaged a couple of songs a year over the last few decades. As I’m limited in musical ability in respect to guitar - which is the instrument with which I write - I seldom start with a guitar riff or a chunky rhythm. It’s often a train of thought which may rattle about my brain for a few weeks before melody and chord structure reveal themselves. Just as easily, it may start with a chord pattern which won’t let go. This is how ‘So happy birthday’ got written - just G and C but in a specific pattern. The words tumbled out in an hour or less a couple of weeks later.

Prior to early 2008 I rarely performed in public and as I don’t have a wide circle of friends, the songs could just sit there for years which is almost as sad as having a party but forgetting to invite anyone.

I work in a Group Home where the clients are brutally honest in respect to my songs. This is wonderful and as they’re considered non verbal their opinion is pithy and restricted to ‘crap’ or enthusiastic nodding and ‘yes - good’. I’m happy with that but don’t despair if I get the ‘crap’ comment. If I get the ‘good’ comment then I know I’m on the right track.

Family are not generally useful to me as musical taste is so personal. They don’t say anything - almost becoming non-verbal in the process, unless there’s a particular song which really moves them. Then it’s almost as if they’re relieved to be able to say ‘Ooh - I liked that one.’

My child - now grown - and her friends are very useful. They’re honest, of another generation and aren’t blinkered by any trace of sibling rivalry. I get the best feedback when I’m asked for the words and chord structure because they want to sing it themselves. This is the highest of accolades as far as I’m concerned.

Now that I play each week, albeit generally three songs at a time within songwriter nights, the feedback is almost instantaneous. I do scratch my head a bit because I don’t really know if it’s my delivery of the song or the song itself. This raises the question - is it the singer or the song? Big issue for me as I’ve never desired the spotlight and have always maintained that ‘the song’s the thing.’ If that’s true then all I need do is get them ‘out there’ in a presentable form and let other artists interpret them as they see fit.

As a last note, I’ve been going through the songs I’ve already recorded but don’t play so much in order to build a few songlists for an hour’s gig and found that what I’m looking for is the songs which still have emotional truth for me. Not necessarily deep and meaningful - excitement and energy will do. In that sense I give myself feedback. If it can move me it passes the test

I've never really been interested in someone else's opinion or suggestion about how they could improve upon my songwriting.

I've listened to so many great songwriters over the years and used them as a measuring stick that it instilled a sense of confidence in me early on.

When the time comes to write it's an internal feeling that speaks very clearly to me to act upon. Sometimes the time it takes to finish a song may vary but when I come to that conclusion it's final and not open to debate.

I also arrange my own material so I tend to keep it close to the source until the actual recording takes place.

The only outside opinion that I might solicit and consider are from those musicians playing on the recording and by the engineers involved. Both bring valuable work experience to the project that I can't bring and that can greatly improve upon the arrangement and production of a song.

I'll post a song for exposure and feedback is interesting to a point but I usually have an attitude of either you get it, like it, or don't.

I very rarely go back and change anything involving the structure of a song and I don't solicit outside opinions about it.

I've always felt comfortable about my song writing weather anyone knew me or heard of me. If a song passes my own personal standard for songwriting then that's good enough for me and I'll be glad to let the chips fall where they may.

This probably all sounds self - absorbed and conceited but it couldn't be further from the truth. I like feeling good about what it is that I'm attempting to accomplish when I write and it's because I'm my own worst critic.

If it doesn't cut the mustard with me then I won't bullshit myself and I'll reject it.

Public opinion about my work has absolutely no bearing on influencing my songwriting.

Of course I like the idea of being accepted and listened to by both the public and my peers but it's LIFE and other artists SONGS that influence my songwriting. Hopefully, that makes it interesting enough for people to listen and enjoy.

I like a song to have a personal, singular vision to it or at least give the impression of that. Some songwriting teams like Lennon & McCartney, Jagger & Richards, Frey & Henley, Goffin & King, Becker & Fagan, Mann & Weil, Leiber & Stoller all were fantastic at conveying that personal vision to a song as if it were the private thoughts of one single person.

I strive for that as well but I prefer to

go it alone.

Good luck out there!

I want to capture a feeling. When it seems to me that I have I'm done. A song has to make me feel something otherwise it's nothing. If it does I assume at least some others will feel something too. That's what I'm after.

We are always our own "first critique".....ain't that the truth. Have not played much outside the studio for the last 11 years. But I find the best critique is from our closest friends and maybe our Indie Record Store online.

If it's something I expect my wife to like, I'll ask her as I write. Then ignore it and carry on! (Kidding!) If she doesn't then I might change something.

Then I demo the song on my PC and send it to my bandmates to see what they think. They'll be looking to mould and morph it within the band, so if they don't like an aspect then it's something we can work on.

I'll also put the demo on my MySpace and invite comments. If it's liked, people will comment. If not, they tend not to, which is a great high-level indicator.

Of course, if no-one likes it, then it means I've gone wrong somewhere and I can see and ask what that is. If everyone loves every note, it means I could finally have that hit I've been looking for! :D

Don't ever write a song! It will follow you for the rest of your life and then some. If you must however, then here's a few tips:

1. A song is never finished. Keep playing around with it until it stops all by itself. If you then like singing, saying,or playing that, it's done (for now).

2. Next, memorise it and play it by heart.

3. Next, record it rough and then listen to it a couple of days later. If it's still good, think of which public might like it and work out your arrangement.

4. Don't play the song in public until you've done No's.1, 2 & 3 above.

5. Never ever ask anyone's opinion of a song unless you're writing and developing the thing together.

6. Next, perform it. Bury it somewhere in the middle of your set, or go out and play it in the streets, or the Metro. See how it feels to deliver and what key is best, etc.

7. Finally, cut back every line, riff, or surplus word that's not essential. Also try cutting out every second line to inject some air and mystery into the lyric.

8. The lyric is the off beat. Now that you have your basic song structure, remember that the phrasing of the words is part of the rythm track. Work it out to fit elegantly.

9. Keep re-working your song until you really enjoy playing it.

10. Keep it current and dynamic for yourself. My oldest song re-work is 28 years.

11. My final test is to take a new CD of recorded material into a few bars (where I gig and I am known)and give it to the boss to play over the house PA. If I don't sweat, I'm satisfied. If they play it next time I come in, I'm happy.

Wow! I never realised I did all that?

Cheers Derek.

As a song writer I write a song with a live audience in mind,so once I put together a song the way I think it will work and submit it to the band,then let them add to or change their parts for the good of the song,we take the final arrangement to the stage to gage the response.During the time we are playing we look to the regular Fans and the people we think are not familiar with our music,we will even go out and ask a regular what the reaction was.If it seems to have gotten the people to move and be excited maybe we know it's a keeper for the cd to come. Average listners not musician/songwriters seem to be the best gage(no offense)and are the opinions I value the most.They consume music for different reasons than the average musician would in my opinion.

Oscar Mancino and I cut a demo and pass it to primary school children. The best and most uncorrupted-by-knowledge responses.

Purely for their reaction.

If it is your song you presumably record it when it is done and dusted as far as you are concerned.

Take a leaf out of the painters' book: never, ever show your work until you consider it finished.

It is your art form. It has your stamp on it. That's what you do. It is inside-out not inside-outside-in-and-out-in-and-out: where would you draw the line?

Personaly i never play new songs for friends beacuse i,m firstly after structural feedback and the listener feedback from muscians and listeners.

I use several sites where i give rewievs and get rewiews,these are mainly from other artists in the genre.Out of that i dissicate the things that gives me a point.i don,t care about comments..it sucks..and after a sufficient volume of rewievs i adjust the song and only to have it so complete as possible before putting it on a cd.I sometimes post half finished songs just to use some early guidelines even if it means that i get very hard criticism.but better that than..yes it,s good,,.and nothing else

beside that i post the songs on chart sites and streaming sites for everyday listeners.and the amount of streams and chart position gives me a hint if it is attractive to the listeners..they do not care about song build and mixes and stuff..here it comes down to the simple fact if the song creates a reaction good or bad...if good it is an angle that it might be of value commercial.

the third thing i use is a track testing..which gives a total overwiev of the song potential in all aspects..and with all this it either goes to the trash or a launch it.

does that means it is sucessfull..no..just that i,m pleased with the work..beyound this it comes down to marketing and promotion which is limited space for an indpendent artist without founds.

cheers

twaang

I think as a songwriter you reach a point where you stop writing songs to please yourself and start getting serious about it and think more of the audience reaction, and that's when the songs start getting good. What feedback you look for depends on what you're trying to do with the songs. I think it's always a good idea to fine tune your songs all the time - sometimes the third or fourth draft is a huge improvement over the first even if the difference is only a chord or a word here and there. As a few people said, if you listen to your friends they might just tell you it's great, but find someone who you trust enough to tell you when something isn't right.

Shanti and I are a duo, a pair of songwriters, so we bounce ideas off of each other, and inspire each one another. Shanti has been writing music for about 5 years and has a fresh approach to making music. I have over two decades of experience so we are able to bring those two very different places to the table. We also listen to many different types of music and keep an open mind about everything,and are very self-critical.

~Buck Curran

I always like to get feedback from 5 sources:

1. Musicians who know and like my stuff (which is usually the people in my band at the time). This is great in terms of "do we really want to play this in front of people?" sorta feedback.

2. Musicians I know who don't know my stuff, and aren't that into my genre. This is good for feedback that's more details driven: words, notes, structure, etc.

3. A fan who loves (just about) everything I write. Now, you might think this is so I will gain acceptance, but that's not really it. I have a few people that just love what I do. They are going to like a song, just about no matter what. But the great feedback I get from them is where they think the new song falls in comparison to other songs I've written. So I'll hear things like, "yeah, I really think this is a better rocker than that other song you guys are playing now", etc. This lets me put in perspective where the song falls within my own catalog.

4. As many people have said: Play it live. If you play it in front of a crowd that doesn't know you, and they respond, it's probably good.

5. Music Business people. In the end, I go to film and tv people I know, and play them the song to see if it's a fit for them to pitch for projects. Usually this is just a "yes or no" feedback.

I only write instrumentals, and really, I do not worry about it, if someone likes it great, if not that is also great, I do not expect that everyone will like it.

That is life, not everyone who hears your stuff will like it, but, I am not sure if that would make it bad, or good.

How many songs have you listened to with other people, and what was the reaction? Did everyone like it?

Probably not.

Wow! 692, Now, 693 responses to the (one) question! What a waste of time?Maybe just taking a break from songwriting and need another computer break?

Songwriter's nights are a joke and are just an outlet to have your ideas ripped off in Nashville.

Hi derek

Creativity happens when we are not thinking.Great songs are written through us not by us.Be positive and god will give you the wisdom of words.

Well, to give a to-the-minute example: about a year ago I wrote some lyrics I really liked and a melody I was somewhat less happy with. After playing it for my husband and a fellow songwriter I started including it in my setlist. It got a good reaction and was mentioned favourably in a gig review in a respectable music mag, but I still wasn't entirely happy. Stayed with another fellow songwriter while on tour, played it for him and asked for suggestions. He suggested various changes, none particularly major, but I still wasn't happy and stopped including it on the set. Had a five hour drive to a gig a little over two weeks ago during which I thought of a completely different rhythm and melody for the lyrics, necessitating changes to the lyrics of one section to accommodate the new rhythmic structure. Performed it a cappella that night and got a great reaction but the next day decided it would work better with accompaniment. Worked out an accompaniment, did 8 gigs with that version but felt all the while that it would be even stronger with a contrasting instrumental intro. Finally had a chance to write said intro yesterday afternoon, played it for the promoter and asked her if she thought I should repeat the intro at the end as an outro. She said yes. Did the full version at last night's gig, was very happy, may make further changes to accompaniment but the song itself will probably stay as is ... until July, when I go in to record a new album. It's being produced by the same producer i've worked with on the previous two albums, and thus far he's suggested changes to every song I've written. He's always been right, so I have no doubt that when we go into the studio he'll suggest changes to this song as well, and I'll take his advice as I always do. At which point it will have taken 18 months for the song to reach its final form. I have no idea whether this is information that anyone out there wants or needs --hope it's helpful to someone, anyway!

I am working on a new record with my band and posted my in-progress, remixed album tracks for feedback on our blog. My thought is that we could both engage our fans, provide some value to them in the form of mp3s for our soon-to-be-released tracks, and get some feedback on how to better mix the songs.

The response so far has been underwhelming, as I am not sure that the average Joe understands the re-mixing process enough to provide us valuable feedback.

Here's the link to one of the blog posts asking for feedback: http://www.cryns.com/2009/02/19/help-me-mix-my-new-record-feedback-needed/

D,

I belong to the Nashville

Songwriters Association International (NSAI). They have a great songwriter feedback program. First, you can play the song at a local chapter meeting and get feedback from other unpublished writers, and pro writers - or industry folk who show up to the meeting. Secondly, you can submit one song per month for feedback from a pro writer. The feedback comes honestly, subjectively, and quickly. I have applied some of the suggestions to a song and found a pearl I overlooked in the beginning. It changed my title and my hook line. Basically, it allowed me to become a better critic of my music through the eyes of an industry professional. I must say, it is free to use for active members.

Gerard James

Regarding songwriting feedback, I only trust my family and a few specific friends for that. I definitely tailor my live show to feedback from fans, but fans and critics are generally not part of my vetting process for songwriting.

That said, a songwriting workshop or something of that nature sounds like something I would utilize for songwriting.

Looking back on 30+ years of songwriting...I have to admit that I've done all the things you mentioned. Anymore though I don't really care if anyone likes the songs I write. I do pay more attention to detail and try my best to fix lyrics that don't come off right the first time. I also try to make the lyric easier to identify...so it doesn't come off as some vague stream of consciences blunder. As for writing for the Willys, well it's not much different...we don't spend time critiqueing lyrics but we are spending more time fixing little things.

Since I'm not a paid songwriter (and noone has shown any interest in helping me earn money writing songs...)I will continue as I do...following the muse...If someone likes it and is willing to pay me more than $10.00 a disc...I might start paying more attention. Otherwise, I'm there to be "discovered" of lost to the ages. Besides, I don't write groundbreaking new music...I just like to sing and rewrite in the tradition of rock and rolls first generation.

With me, song writing is a torrent of 'stuff' that flows from somewhere I do not fully understand. I credit it to God and my dead relatives watching over me... long story.

So when I leave the studio on the day I write a song, it is a one day affair for me, it is pretty much finished but for final mix and sweetening. I play it for my wife and son, to get their immediate reaction. Good or bad, I rarely go back to the drawing board. I trust my afore mentioned 'mentors' who sent me my inspiration so I usually look to some element of the mix as to why a reaction is not what I expected or hoped for. The basic song never really changes but for a rhyme tweak maybe.

A radio guy once told me when I asked him how folks liked my songs. He said, "When they DON'T call, thats a good sign." Thats true I find. Folks will throw tomatoes if you suck, but pretty much go about their business quietly humming your song and you might miss that.

My advice, if you find yourself ducking tomatoes, maybe you should tweak things a little until that stops. If your song touches their hearts, watch for that tell tale eye rub, then bask in the knowledge that you have been allowed into their hearts, and remeber, thats a privilege few get in life. Act accordingly.

I usually record a quick 'n' dirty version and send it to a few friends on the Internet as an MP3, then they critique it. Works relatively well, and usually confirmed my own thoughts too.

Hey Derek, from my point of view it depends on what one is trying to do with the music. If it's marketing the music then think like Berry Gordy and subject it to a panel to critique. if you do it because it's art then be smart and let it flow Joe. I take the approach of Miles Davis. I believe he stated that in jazz "There are no WRONG notes".

Maggie (my wife) and I write songs individually then play them for each other to get an opinion. We are very critical about our own material, so by the time we play it for each other, we have a pretty good idea whether they're good, or not. Then we play them onstage. If our audience likes them, we know, because, after a couple of times of playing them, they begin to sing along and request them. But just because they may not be "crowd pleasers" doesn't mean that they aren't really good songs.

Critique may be valuable for some, but because music is subjective, it can be very destructive to creativity. If your song means something to you and you can convey that to anyone else, you're successful. You know when you've written something good, if you love music.

I know after I've played a song about my daughter and see tears in the eyes of a few listeners in the audience that the song works. The song is "Emma" from the CD, "The Back Twenty". Not the greatest recording, but this song works.

I have a few songwriter friends for whom I'll play a song. Usually though, if I feel confident enough to play the song for them, I'm confident about the song and am content with it.

It is wonderful to be clear about what you want to accomplish with a critique; if it is to write a "hit", then this is great. If it is to be meaningful to oneself, this is fine too-no critique required.

Steve Vasil

If it moves me in some way then that's good enough for me. Sometimes it's the melody, sometimes the lyrics. Songwriting/Music is such a deeply personal journey that I really don't care what others think. I do hope that it has some value to listeners but I can't write for listeners. I have to write for me.

I prefer to complete a song and then get feedback.

If you're writing ti get a hit you need lots of feedback. If you're writing to please and express yourself you don't, and that makes you free. My stuff sits around for months or years. Then I copyright it and give it to my playing partner to learn. (He's no help with critiqe). Then if a few audiences like it I'll keep it on the list. If I like it, the musicians playing it like it, and some of the audience likes it then any panel of "experts" who don't can kiss you know where because I'm not writing for them, I,m writing for real people, and myself.

Well, here's a funny one for ya...I used to run the songs by my producer, he would make helpful suggestions, I would augment his suggestions, and so on...by the end we had some decent songs. And soon I was writing pretty good ones on my own, and he would listen and not want to change anything. Then he embezzled over 30 grand from the record company, and he and the owner of the record company tried to sue me for that same money. They were not successful, thankfully. At one time they were two of my closest friends. I am now very careful about letting new friends in to my life. The scary part is, these people actually have children. Recently the owner tried to get in touch with me to say that he was having the producer arrested. Who the hell knows what is really going on. Needless to say, the whole experience left a pretty rancid taste in my mouth about songwriting and the music industry in general. People can seem like such good souls, such real human beings, but sadly, all too often they fail to plan, or plan to fail, get bitten by a rabid dog in the dog eat dog nature of the business world, and work out of a scarcity mentality, and turn their back on those they once called friends. And try to infect everyone around them with rabies. But I try to get back on the horse and write when I can. Its kind of like the movie "batman begins"...that producer taught me so much, then years later tried to drive a train into my house. Go see it.

By the time I let someone hear a new song I tend to consider that it is finished, and I like it enough to believe it has a good chance of stiking a chord with a certain amount of people.

I'll play it at live shows and if I feel strongly enough about it I will take it into the studio.

Then I'll post it on Taxi and submit it to hopefully appropriate listings.

I might then put it also on www.myspace.com/billwcraig

I'm always intereseted in people's feedback but I'm not sure I've ever gone back and rewritten something based on it. Probably I should be more open to doing that.

The first people I run it by are my band mates. It's my job to write stuff that inspires them to want to be part of it. Everyone want's to be part of something good or great. I'm not able to pay them at this point so for them to invest time, work, and energy they have to see something in it, and it starts with the songs. They all have professional ears and wide tastes and they aren't going to be afraid to criticize something I've written, which they have done in the past and it helps.

After it passes the band test I like to try on someone who is big music fan, but knows nothing about music. The average person doesn't analyze lyrics or song structures they simply like a song and want to buy it or they don't.

The third test for me is to try out live at an open mic or a gig either solo or with the band.

In summary..I try it on professionals first, the musically uneducated second, and then at a live venue. If it gets good response from all three, then it will make it to the studio and on to the CD

Sorry to hold the floor for so long everyone, I promise I'll shut up after this. Everyone should go read all of Ariel's stuff. Its really good. And it works. I wish I'd had it a few years ago...

I usually play a new song for my husband, my family & my close friends. I don’t really look for praise – I’m looking to see if there is an emotional connection, a reaction, to see if it kept their attention, those kinds of things.

I don’t look for criticism per se: if I see anything less than an enthusiastic or emotional response, I either re-work the song myself or put it aside in a file. If it’s not a strong enough song idea, I will file it & look at it again in a few months. If it still doesn’t spark a strong song hook, then I abandon it. There are far too many other songs to be written – never a shortage of subjects/angles of life to write about!

I do not upload a song nor e-mail it out. If I think it’s strong enough, I will include it in a show to gauge audience reaction.

I don’t think it’s worth paying to have a song critiqued by people you don’t know or trust/value their opinion. Perhaps it would be helpful from someone you respect & admire but still then, it’s their opinion. I’ve always lived by Dolly Parton’s credo: “don’t give me advice, give me information so I can make up my own mind”

I have had many mentors/teachers – every book I could find on the subject and every album & interview of songwriters that I admire. My aunt Angele Arsenault was the greatest influence in my life.

I don’t look for suggestions but will incorporate any ones that are offered if I happen to agree. Looking back over my previous answers, I guess I’m pretty single-minded when it comes to writing.

However, I have recently started collaborating and interestingly enough, I find myself wide open to suggestions & change. Though I consider a song to be a part of me, it is, at the same time, separate from me – it’s an entity unto its own and whatever works best for the song, is what gets written. I know I am not the only one who compares writing songs to raising children – you birth them then they take on a life of their own and you stand back & marvel at how people react to them.

Derek: thanks for making me think more deeply about what I do. I'm going to write & put a more in-depth version on my website.

I know when it's finished, and when it sounds the way I want it to. The song writes itself, it's up to me to get it down to tape. I don't think that writing songs based on anyone else's opinion, especially if they aren't in my band, is a good idea. If they had great ideas, let them write their own songs. This isn't supposed to be about writing commercial jingles to appeal to everyone, it's supposed to be about being true to your own vision. I guess that's what's wrong with music today.....I believe what Eddie Van Halen said."If it sounds good, it is good."

I much prefer having true fans, people who understand what it is I'm saying, and can feel what I feel, than to be blindly admired by ten thousand people because I'm the flavor of the week. Dropping a song to the lowest common denominator is a valid way to write?..... what is it you're after? Can't be artistic integrity.... Do you think Beethoven, Mozart, Bach, Picasso, Rembrandt or any other genius sat around in a think tank and asked what was good, and wrote or painted by committee vote? Stay true to your vision, consequences be damned! If you don't like it, fine.....I don't care, the world is big enough for us to disagree. But it doesn't mean that my music sucks, and it doesn't mean that your opinion is wrong, you just don't like it. If you like it, welcome aboard, but if you don't, I'm not going to change it. This is what I do. I mean, after all, what am I, a jukebox or an artist?

I submit that I am an artist. I do not live or die by committee.

Be careful!!!!

Most of the time,your first idea is the best one!Showing your work to everybody for advices can be very destructive!They don't understand exactly what you had in mind(heart)at the moment you were inspired and wrote your tune.The feeling,the emotion,the source is all yours and only yours!!!Also some people have a very intellectual approach or even a jealous one,which has nothing to do with art!So,please, show your work to others but keep in mind that you're the boss and that you cannot please everybody.You'll be surprised to discover how friends or family can be sometimes not so proud of your talents and discoveries!

I've been in a workshop or two, but ultimately, I've found that there's no substitute for letting go of how utterly amazing you think you are and being brutally honest with yourself. I usually start by trusting my subconscious and letting it all pour out on the page, whether it seems to make sense or not. Then I eliminate the nonsense, save anything worth saving, and cobble it all into what I hope are compelling lyrics. Then (this is the tough part) I become a ruthless, vicious, critic/editor, closely examining everything, while asking myself, "Is this the best possible word, phrase, line, verse and chorus, or am I just being lazy, self-deluded, or both?" I do that until I honestly can't come up with anything better. Even then, it could be stunningly mediocre. But at least, I've continued to hone my craft. I guess I'd call it a "One Member Workshop".

Just wanted to add that while I'm talking about lyrics, I'm equally self-critical about melody, structure, etc.

Hey Derek! You have asked, What do you do for feedback on a new song you're writing?

I usually work on a strong map of the original songs many times on the acoustic guitar and until I feel very comfortable with creating a recorded version. Girlfriends, family and friends are the best to play the songs for, they give very honest feedback without hesitation usually, but I usually only let people here the versions after I press it to cd. This way the songs are exactly how I was imagining them to sound recorded, without outside opinion that could possibly lead me down a different path. I try to stay true to each song. Once I release a cd, I know quickly if some songs get great response and others don't, but at the end of the day, I wrote songs that I like personally and I think that is all that really matters. Ofcourse all musicians want other humans to enjoy what they've created, so that is also a goal in songwriting.

Hi Derek and Hi to all the musicians here.

I have tried getting feedback from friends, family, my audience, my mailing list, Industry's expert etc. It's always good to hear their opinions but what is really matter is what you really think. Listhen to yourself. trust yourself. you know better than anyone what you really want to say. sometimes listhen to too much people it's even frustrated.

I don't ask anyone anything about what they think about a song I write! The first thing I do is come up with a tune and chord changes on the guitar, and then I think of something I want to write about! After that I just write the song and let it be! So I guess you either like it or you don't!

I used to belong to Taxi And Nashville Songwriter's Association. Taxi was very constructive with their critques but nothing happened with my songs. NSA seemed manic about the way I sent the songs in (lyric sheets etc.) and did nothing for me either. "Not suitable for today's market" was the most repeated phrase. By the time you write for "today's market" "today's market" has already changed to "tomorrow's market". As an artist, I write solely to suit myself. Art is the one place where you should be able to do that. The other side of that coin is that you may never get any appreciable sales. I think that my music may be discovered as something worthwhile after my death. If that's the case, screw it, That's what my song "Hello Music Business" is all about. I think a lot of good to great music is kicked to the curb by the music business in favor of shit.

From inspiration, creative process and feedback, every song I have written or composed has another story. Will be happy to share them with you, one by one in good time soon.

Most of my songs come to me when I'm in meditation, in a meaningful conversation or on the road. Train stations, long hallways and roof tops, for example, are good backdrops for free vocalizing: Walking and singing in Central Park feeds my inner knowing with a backdrop of fresh paint. So far, Mark A Berman arranged most of my songs. Looking forward to learn more about technical aspects of music making at Berklee College of music, in the near future. What a gift! Thanks Derek, your feedbacks are always appreciated.

Hi Derek

my husband and I are currently working on a new CD. We have moved into the World music genre which is new to us and most songs are originals. For feedback (even though we are not done with mixing) I have played the songs to friends and people I don't know very well, to musicians and people that know nothing about music. I also try to play it for younger kids (teenagers) in our neighborhood because their input is important as to how a young audience will respond to this music.

I ask spec. if they can understand the lyrics, if they like a song and what they like about it etc. I try to gather as much feedback as I can as we want to appeal to a large audience.

Gabriele:)

Since I mostly write instrumental music, this may not apply to all. However, As I create a new tune I'll play it around the house and if my son or my wife burst into the room and say, "That's cool! Is that new?" then I know I have a good thing going. As the song takes shape, I will perform it trying to work out the various sections. I can't always depend on audience reaction because if I am really on to something new, the audience may not be at the same point where I am. None-the-less, if a particular tune elicits no response or a negative response after repeated performances, it goes into dry dock.

I start with a hook that means something personal to me and build around it. It could take many adjustments or a few. Then I work in the melody after several or many tries. If it starts to sound good to me and I can recall the melody easily, I will put some tracks down on my computer. After that I play to some music friends. If it seems to get good feedback all around, I record.

1. I play the song for my soul, my soul tells me if it's good or not. I learned long ago to be a fountain. I make music to make myself happy first everyone else is secondary.

2. I play the song for my band and if they really don't like it, I set it aside for another project.

I never seek advise on how to improve my songs. My music is my art and I only compose songs that sound beautiful to me.

It's great if someone else likes my music too (which people usually do) but I mainly compose for myself.

TO THOSE THAT SAY THEY DON’T SEEK FEEDBACK:

Does that mean your songs can not be improved?

Or that they can be improved, but only you know how to improve it?

Or that others might have great suggestions for improvements, but you just don’t want to hear it?

??????? so judging by these questions, its obvious you have a negative take on people who say they dont seek feedback...haha...got to give you a tad bit of hard time derek!!!

of course songs can be better...and peoples suggestions can be worth while...but at the end of the day, whose opinions are the most relevant? i've heard amazing advice and ridiculous advice from everybody from record executives to fellow musicians and family members...and have had the pleasure of being part of songs that were extremely successful monetarily and songs that were never noticed...again it all goes back to PERSONAL TASTE....and at the end of the day a musician has to be true to themselves first and foremost. A "SUCCESSFUL" song isnt necessarily a better song...it is just different....and for me the song creating process is a constant bouncing of ideas off of people in the studio or comusicians on a track, etc...

i would say my BIGGEST advice for what its worth is to go with your gut instinct and vibe...and to NOT think too much about it...You could spend 10 years writing and changing a song and at the end of the day it is really just a musical snapshot with many more to come.

1. Join ASCAP as a member.

2. The program of your favorite Singers CD lists the Music Publishers for all of the songs.

3. Call ASCAP index & they will tell you the phone# & address of these Publishers.

4. Now you can submit your music & demo to

the professionals employed by your favorite singer! GOOD LUCK!

...and i have to agree with the other "Mr. Anonymous" comment on painters using focus groups to make their paintings....hahah

i have to say i'm EXTREMELY surprised at all of the responses on here as well!!!

I have one really good friend I ask for feedback all the time - I'll play it for some others when it's mostly finished - sometimes I take their advice and go back and modify it.

There's no specific formula every time - when it's done - it's done - and usually when I feel like it was written by someone else is when it's done!

Hi Derek, there are lots of good points made above. And what you did in your early years was a good thing indeed.

Songwriting as well as any other aspect of music creation can be improved by feed backs whether critiques or not.

But we shouldn't forget that Music (sounds & lyrics) as an art, is that unhindered flow from within brought before the ear of the listeners.

Some songs come entirely from within the writer and may bless many who hear them while the writer does not seek for public approval or so.

If he believes in himself and knows the source of his songs (it may not be all songs, of course), and passes out his songs to the world, there must be a contagious effect-People would make positive report of it.

The bottom line is "Does the writer love his song?" If he doesn't like it people won't like it as well no matter what.

However, I've noticed that the unhindered piece of art that flows from within does so much to catch the attention & enthusiasm of the soul from whom it emanates.

I actually don't present any thing until, goose bumps. My own. then My production partner, hears em'. He gets the power of veto, over my ego. Case in point he made a choice that I would have passed on. Both tracks have gotten a lot of praise. If not from my gut if forced... I move on to the next one. That is how it is done, at Dog Hair Productions.

Chris...

Hi Derek,

We're 2 in the bands, I compose most of it, the other member is a dj and very selective, if she does feel as right about it as I do, it's a good song.

Thanks,

Vincent / A-lix

myspace.com/alixland

An addition to my previous comment. (Wherever that was, can't find it among the billion comments made here!) If you're just starting out, I think it's important to build your creative muscles and write a lot. Don't bother that much about quality, but show it or play it to people to see how it communicates. It's a kind of language, and you develop it through responses and reactions. The fine tuning comes later, the refined use of symbols, structural elements, the subtle manipulative techniques etc.

People communicate in different ways on different levels of intimacy. Trying to reach as many as possible may not be as good an idea as finding those people that communicate in a likeminded way. The important thing is not, to me anyway, to adapt my writing to what the broad majority seem to like, but to further develop my personal style and make sure it lands where it's supposed to. For instance, I like playing in front of a focussed, listening audience. There is no point, for someone like me, in taking advice from someone who holds courses for songwriters aiming for the mainstream audience.

www.myspace.com/oldlostjohn

www.oldlostjohn.com

I DON'T EVEN KNOW WHERE TO START THIS TOPIC. BECAUSE PRESENTLY, I'VE BEEN IN THAILAND FOR THE LAST 8 MONTHS AND AM GOING BACK TO PARIS AND EVENTUALLY LONDON IN A COUPLE OF WEEKS. AND ALL MY MUSIC I'VE ACCUMULATED THROUGH MY EXPERIENCES IN NEW YORK, PARIS AND LONDON JUST DON'T SAY ANYTHING TO THEM, NADA! MUSIC AND LANGUAGE ARE DIRECTLY CONNECTED. AND YOUR HEARING OF MUSIC IS INFLUENCED BY THE LANGUAGE YOU SPEAK. AMAZING! I'VE WRITTEN AND RECORDED PLENTY OF SONGS, HENCE A NEW ALBUM http://www.digital-tunes.net/releases/henry_soul___l_a__funk_sessionsAND AT PRESENT, THEY'RE WORTH ALMOST NOTHING HERE, BECAUSE IT'S NOT SUNG IN THEIR OWN LANGUAGE AND I'M NOT A FAMOUS POP STAR TV BLAH! BLAH!?

HENRY.

My method:

I release every version of the song for free.

Seriously.

Then I see what sells/downloads most.

Money speaks louder than words, as do free downloads.

I mean, there are lots of good critical feedback for pay ways, but I'm a hobbiest.

Even as it continues to grow into a nice little paying side line, however, paid criticism to get suggestions how to sell my music, vs. just putting it all out for free, and seeing what sells... hmm.

I plan to package the popular stuff up and submit that to Itunes, via Cdbaby, or whatever works best.

However, in the spirit of Creative Commons, and honoring one's fan base, I'm likely to continue to give it away.

I like Mangatunes model, among others...Amiestreet, etc.

The Feedback from these markets helps me decide, and the fans can see what works, doesn't. They are not out any money, and I have feedback.

We aren't working from scarcity here.

However, I also have to limit myself, and that's where having worked 20 years plus writing music helps.

If I was writing for a goal, as opposed to just having fun, I'd need feedback if I was hitting the goal, making the Patron happy, but the joy of releasing the various variations on the internet is just that... it's all VARIATIONS.

I'd ask you, if you aren't having fun, why are you doing it? There are other ways to make money...

Now, we could talk about Cold Play and their playing... just to much like another band... but I'm not doing that, I'm just writing stuff I enjoy to listen to, putting out the work, stepping away, coming back, re-packaging, to keep it as close to free as possible for the fans, and enjoying myself to no end.

I've had more than 1000 fans listen and share my music, in the first month. Thanks to our slow reporting systems, I'll see if it's growing or stable now.

I've played no gigs. Don't tour, or do much active promotion.

I've just made it super easy for people to get the music, and if it's Jazz, I say it's Jazz. If it's Rock, it's tagged as such. New Age, etc. The hardest part for me is tagging 27 albums, EP, and singles. And that's this week. Next week, I hope to put out a dozen more I've been working on.

Trying to get a perfect song... lots of work, versus sharing the creative process, which may engage some... which is what webcomics can do... try filming say, via ustream, etc. a gig or practice session, and let people engage with you as you work...

But my music is mostly (sorry Kylie Strabo :) solitary. I record, I play, I mix, I produce.

I give it away for free.

Some things move, some don't.

But I'm also realizing the venue attracts certain kinds of people, and so I might be a huge hit one place and not another.

I also know most of my music is very good, and I only release stuff as Itunes ready, when it is ready...

I guess the best way to put it is, making it 150% easy for everyone to give feedback, but remembering that people who buy the music are making one statement, and a teacher & performer you love will also make statements that are useful.

www.clousfamily.com You can listen to all my stuff for free, and get most of it for free -- email me if there is any issue getting it -- my email is on the website, and I'll be glad to get you a copy.

One other thing, I read the guy who said he can write songs that turn on his wife. That is a happy & skilled man. "I write the songs that turn on my wife..." Or his wife supports him in his hobby LOL.

#3

I forgot the various tallies at cd baby....the digital sales tally is very telling....all of the songs sell something, but 3 of them sell pretty well and consistantly!

One of the three has been a finalist in a couple of song contests, and in one, in a peer vote it rated 11 out of several thousand entrants......so, this is yet another good gauge!

This is going to sound really amateur, but after I have recorded the song on my little 4 track, I run it by my wife first. Having played piano for years (although not in the style of music I do), she kind of knows what I aim for and can give me some feedback, pro and con. She's honest, and if she doesn't like something she will tell me, then it's up to me to decide if I think her criticism is valid or not. (I always tell HER, however, that of course it is!! HA!!) After that, I run the tune past my bass player. Since he's going to have to learn it, he has a vested interest. If he thinks it isn't good, he won't want to be up in front of people performing it. If all goes well and it gets to the point where we play it in a club, I then look for audience response. However, if it isn't overwhelmingly positive the first few times out, I have to ask myself if we are actually performing the song as well as we can. Usually, it takes a few times out at gigs for the tune to gel. If at that point it isn't getting the response I'd like, then it's up to me to decide whether it's worth re-arranging and trying it again or if I should just drop it.

This time I'm trying something different. I usually play for friends and listen to their comments. This time, I'm posting the rough tracks on www.myspace.com/shannonkaren. I blogged asking for feedback (but I cheated and said visitors to say only good things, LOL. The ego's feeling a little fragile). I'd love some professional feedback and a great producer/arranger to come into my life right about now.

I let friends, nieces, disabled bus driver, studio manager and old friends listen and note their opinions. When I get a lot of good feedback for one particular song I then send it to the International Songwriters for assessment then have it re-demod sometimes more than once. When I see my little grand nephew dancing to it and people my age I know it catchy so I try and plug it to whever I feel as the spirit moves me as I am only an amateur and as you say there is a lot of pleasure to be had from creating the final bits. I usally ask if my na's and li's sound better then try it again myself to see if they feel the same and go by the majority I ask the studio manager which sounds best, the guitar or the Doorsy sound of the organ which keeps getting killed off every time I make something but I will have that little sound in my next one do what my spirit says. Trouble is sometimes we dont listen. I am guilty of that. Now in 1970 and 1984 when holidaying in Paris near the Marais area I played it through my headphones whilst we were in a resturaunt and the owner pointed and asked to hear it through his speakers. He said he liked it it and the whole resturaunt heard it and smiled. This is real when strangers tell you yes or no. Dont be afraid to take an opportunity to ask whoever you feel to, go as the spirit moves you as I have let many important ones by-pass me. I have no ambitions anyway just like to see the smile on people's face when they like something of mine and of course everyone else's music too not just mine. This song The Silver Ship is still not how I want it to sound yet! But people like it the way it is

If people dont like it-I usually give them two to hear, then I drop whichever one they like least.

Send it to TV-I did -just for fun and ended up being told I came a close second in their choice so I was told it was not atmospheric enough so I must work on that now.

Others people's opinion matter so ask aaway. Hope this has helped.

Hi Derek, First I burn the song in quite low MP3 resolution and send it to fellow songwriters and one non musical friend who follows my work with interest. The songwriting folk are good, as is one particular producer who does backing tracks. Then I listen to it for about 100 times (no kidding) until I can't hear anymore errors. Sometimes I'll go back in and change a single note, or add one more drum beat. [I listen to it mainly while driving]. I usually act on any feedback. I'm quite willing to change elements. The story and essential chord structure don't usually move a lot, but some words and perhaps phrasing and unecessary "fat" is cut. So that's what I do. Hope it's okay.

Best Wishes, John.

Hi Derek,

When I first started out I thought once I put my pencil down it was finished. I wrote so stream-of-conscience-ish that I thought it compromised if I altered it.

At one point I used to go to my ASCAP rep here in Nashville and get his critique on a few songs. But I never completely trusted his opinion because I always felt I was some sort of burden to him and it took months to schedule a few mins of a meeting.

Ironically enough when I joined TAXI years ago I ended up LOVING their critiques on submissions. They were anonymous and therefore very frank with praise and suggestions. Even if I didn't agree 100% with any given critique, over time I saw a pattern of things multiple reviewers were saying about my writing. I would send in 5 - 10 songs at a time (yes, paying for them) to give me feedback. It really helped me to learn to edit myself.

Of course that was years ago before I ever had released my own albums, put together a band, toured, or signed record deals.

Nowadays my process is this:

I usually finish somewhere around 40+ songs a year. However, I usually fill up notebooks and my hand-held tape recorder with hours and hours of unfinished songs. Once I think I have the song (ie: i have 3 verses, a chorus, a bridge or pre-chorus if needed, etc) I type up the lyrics (typing lyrics is one of the best suggestions someone ever gave me - makes it like grading papers, not as personal as my notebook). And while I mostly write late at night, I always wait to edit myself during the mornings and early afternoons. I usually have a stack of typed songs that have made it from my notebook to my typed files. I found that I love editing myself. I make sure with a very clear mind and strong pot of coffee that every line is as good as I think I can make it and that my rhyme and meter and structure is solid and consistent. This doesn't mean I don't still like to break the rules in my structure, but if I do, I do it on purpose. Not by accident or by being lazy. Once I think it's done, I retype my lyrics and record a guitar/vocal demo. I then like to ride around in my van and listen to them (great way to pass the time touring solo). I always think of better words, lines, etc while driving. Hearing it in my car is usually the best way to know if I like it or not. This is all something I do for myself because I enjoy it. I do have a lot of recorded material that I have to go through when I play shows, but I always try to work in some new songs. And often this is where I find out which ones are connecting more than others. When I have a band backing me, I don't play as much new stuff as when I'm solo. And I guess there are many songs that I'll never play out...

Thanks for the forum to share,

-S

I write to please myself, and I'm my biggest fan and worst critic. I will let select people have a sneak peek at some of my music while it's in it's writing phase. It's important for an artist to know when they write a riff/song that just simply 'kicks ass!' and not give a crap what anyone else thinks, but knows that there will be many people who don't like or care about your music. Like Zappa would say, "People are going to either get my music, or they're not." The music each person likes or hates is a very personal, subjective, unique preference. To critique the recording quality of a song or how it's mixed/produced is something that you can make positive/negative comparisons to. Another fair critique in my book would be to point out what makes a certain song sound like the genre it is being submitted to; does your Metal song really sound like the style of Metal that the music supervisor is asking for?

Thanks Derek,

I am sure that we can all write a master peice that is the first point as a standard, with a given audience you ten to work out what works and what don't quite do it...

Apart from working out with your fellow band members and who you jam with "I don't wear my heart on a sleeve" as to have someone try shed my songs as that would be like I don't really believe in what is given to us to sing by way of said inspirations and concepts in a song...

A good song will always generate it's feedback if playlisted of course and lets be real there is a lot snobby in way of devisions that say who control...

That why I would rather free my soul going for a next new free will spirited melody that say it as it is by way of realities as each to there owna methods and got to have style and plz keep enjoying those realms got fun not just inspiration...

Nuff Blessings coming our way that why I got to say play daddie play got to listen what the mystic say...

Have a good music working month for spring forth March hope all is good going forward in a music networking plan, Love n Peace in Harmony...

Wadada Selah

Wayne-mwm

I used to get all excited when I would create a new song.

It's like that chick who wrote a bestseller book said, on that last thing Derek sent us -

I would wake up in the morning with a song completed,

not even remembering doing it.

So I would send all the mp3's my ''genius'' completed to a bunch of people by e~mail.

I think my ''genius'' irritated a lot of people.

Now I just put 'em on my-space.



~ L A M M Y aka Mr. True ~

When I'm writing a new song I don't actually write anything down. If I can't remember it, it's probably not good enough. If it passes that test, I'll send a demo to other musicians that I respect. The last test is playing it live. Even after all of that, if I can't get the recording the way I hear it in my head, I'll scrap the song completely. I write a lot, so there is no lack of material, but I am hyper critical of my own work.

I took songwriting workshops many years ago. The commentary by the other participants was for the most part not useful to me. I should write a song about that songwriting workshop -- there were some real strange birds! However, these were aspirants; a higher bar of professionalism and accomplishment might have resulted in something valuable.

My producer/arranger often suggests rewrites. I get annoyed by these requests but in every case they result in my writing something much stronger.

I have only done limited co-writing but I think it could be very promising.

But when I write, I play the song for my husband and son. If they like it I sometimes post it on YouTube. If it makes it to the recording studio I know it will get polished in melody, lyric and arrangement prior to final production.

Sometimes a melody comes to me like a gift from above -- more beautiful than banal. I always worry in such cases that I've ripped someone off. When that happens I rehearse the song for gigs and ask the musicians if it's reminiscent of anything. So far I've never been told I'd ripped off another tune. So I think those are the occasions where I tapped into the universal songwriting motherlode.

DEREK

YOU NEED TO EDIT THESE COMMENTS OR AT LEAST PUT THEM IN ALPHABETICAL ORDER THERE ARE FAR TO MANY MOST OF WHICH ARE NEITHER HELPFUL CONSTUCTIVE OR INFORMATIVE AND IN ORDER TO MAINTAIN PEOPLES INTEREST MAKE THEM BRIEF OTHERWISE THEY BECOME A SERIES OR USELESS RANDOM THOUGHTS

I play it for my girlfriend because she is the most honest person. Then I send it to the engineer who mixes all my records and my snobby friend (who plays in a band). Lastly I send it to my parents and if they hate it I'm doing a great job as a writer. I have lots of writer friends but I find I get a more clearly constructed critique by people that just love music and don't play an instrument or write.

The first thing I do after writing a new song is I record it onto a cassette tape and play it back. Hearing it, you can determine what needs to be improved. You may decide that the lyric needs some work or maybe the pace of the rhythm should be changed. Once you have got a clear idea of what you want, then record a final version. You might at that point try to play it at an open mic in front of people and get the publics reaction.

I am a jazz composer and hiphop lyric writer, so my requirements are a little different. My formula is simple:

Club Tested, Club Approved

peace - f

Well stated, Sam. But in return, I have never heard of you either. I am not at all looking for the broadest possible audience for my music, so none of it is created to a standard that generates approval. It is simply created, and the audience that is hungry for it gradually appears. It's kind of like musical reverse engineering... if the supply is created, a demand will show up. It may not be mass approval demand that will sell millions, but I am just not interested in competing in that market. I am currently selling between 50-100 CD's month to a small niche market, by word of mouth. For now, I'm quite comfortable with that. Thanks for your thoughts.

One thing to add...I always try to share songs with NON-musician friends for feedback. I find that it is MOST times a different type of song that appeals to a non-musician vs. a musician. And I'm not really trying to impress other musicians for the most part as they aren't going to buy my CD anyway.

First, I have never been able to write a song in the parking lot and come on stage and sing it. The creative process is different for everyone. But, once a song finally feels presentable, here is a few things that have really helped hone it.

Friends who are honest enough , and savvy enough, to listen to the initial unveiling are essential. The uncertainty in me is such that a new song likely would never be heard without there perusal. Thumbs up or thumbs down, their heartfelt critique is the beginning.

Then there were the times in Austin and Nashville when I would sing new songs accapella to customers in my cab. You would be surprised how many people really got off on it. I could often gauge the quality of the lyric by there spontaneous response . Sometimes, I would just play my cd’s. When folks where moved to inquire about the singer, I would invite comments. People can get down right insightful .

Songwriters nights are invaluable to me. Clubs that are comfortable enough to climb on stage and debut a song. I’m sure its not like birthin’ a child, but its always a very anxious moment. Then, after I ‘ve finally gotten through the tune for the first time, I can relax and see how it was received. Fellow songwriters rarely have a problem letting you know what they think. You can learn a lot about song crafting.

Listening to other folks material helps keep me sharp and creative.

I arrange the song . A song can always be improved. A word here a triplet there can make an incredible difference. The point is that I stay open to the creative spirit, however it comes and am more than willing to make changes to improve the tunes. Editing, editing, editing.

Finally, I’ll put a new tune in a set. After playing it several times, it becomes fairly evident if the song’s a keeper.

dale

I usually play new tunes out at an open mic and see if it engages the audience and/or receives feedback from the crowd. By the time I do that, I've usually worked it to the point I'm comfortable with it to be presented to the public.

Sometimes I'll notice something I can tweak to make it flow better, and then make those changes, like a lyric adjustment or a melodic fine tuning. I've had people in the audience be inspired by something they heard and make a suggestion for a subject to write about. Mostly I receive positive feedback from other musicians in those places. They're a very supportive community.

I haven't had any severe in-depth critiquing since my days in flute repertoire class in college. I'm usually aware when I need to go back and adjust something. I'm always open to what people have to say, whether I agree or not since it's true for them and I can have greater awareness as a result.

Right now I'm working on two instrumental projects - I can't play all the parts at one time on multiple instruments, so I won't be able to use my traditional live methods for that - I'll bring it over to the studio for my colleagues to take a listen and see what they have to say. Jim Gardiner is a Grammy-nominated engineer with multiple gold and platinums to his credit, so I value his input. We'll be doing some collaborating in the near future either on these or other new tunes.

Usually I listen to my gut. If it feels good, then I move to the next and then revisit it later to see if it still feels good.

I usually work on a song by myself for an extended period until I feel it's "ready", until it feels good to me.

Then I'll show it to my husband for the first honest feedback (he's the first one to tell me it sucks if it does). Then it gets tweaked (or not).

Then I'll often share it with my musician colleagues. Rarely, I will share it with others (friends and family), though I don't rely upon them for production feedback. I'll keep polishing it by myself until it's feeling really good. Then, it can go out into the world.

What a great blog, Derek!

I write when I have something that needs to be expressed, and this is the most natural path FOR ME. Then I find the melody which the lyrics usually choose for me.

Then I try it on myself first, then closest people to me.

If they give positive feedback I'll go to my arranger and get his imput. The end result is usually somewhat of a collaboration of all the above.

I play a new song for a couple of friends,then I might play it on a show.Someone once told me (We don't write songs for musicians we write for the listening public because either they like it or they don't.Musicians listen as a musician for mistakes or for something they can add to it.

After being convinced with the song myself, I play it to the people i know as being honest and frank , whose reaction i can recognize, and their feedback is constructive. My woman first, then colleagues producers and songwriters that i admire for their skills and experience, then, once i have a good mix,I spread it to the public, to see the general feedback.

Thanks for another great question Derek. I like to take new songs to my voice instructor. Once I flesh out the melodic notes, I can finish the arranging. My husband is my sounding board at home but usually loves everything.:) When I want some true criticism, I just show it to my band. If they like it, they'll work with it and we'll change it around for us. If they start staring into space, I just save it for acoustic shows or put it back in the pile for later inspiration.

I play some songs for my wife, especially those that she directly inspired--She inspires all of them in some way. Also, I like to let songs sit. If I still like them a few months or a year down the line, I'm pretty satisfied that I have a good song (at least according to my aesthetic standards.)

Hello Derek: There is no right or wrong in song writing. We are expressed from within. The way we know and feel the power of a song is when it screams excitement from our internal force as we write it. How good of a receptical we are or our capacity is not determined by us, but by others. Test every way possible, because no one knows what music and lyric formula will work the best for the quickest, and most enduring response. Mostly we must remember that since we are writing for others we should try to judge how feel first by repitious review testing logic, and emotions in every way we can before sharing it. Does it make you feel good, happy, sad. is it fun? Go ahead talk to yourself, but listen for everybody.

I usually hear comments about my sytle more than a specific tune. I get alot of positive feedback about my guitar work, most of my listeners don't realize I do ALL the instruments on my tracks. One fan I just mentioned that to after being asked who else was on my CD, was shocke d to hear, its just me!

I wonder about feedback?! go to www.lighthouserestorations.org and give me feedback about the lighthouse project I'm doing please! Keep on listening! Enjoy!

Craig

I let no one hear any of my material until it is completed and out on the streets for sale. Then they may comment all they want.

We write instrumental music, and rely on audience applause or comments. We also check out stats and comments on YouTube.

I usually keep the feedback on any new songs I'm writing to a minimum. At Musicians Institute they used to do the same type of thing as they did over at Berklee where they'd put you in a room with a bunch of your peers and tear your song apart note for note. I think that at that stage when you are aspiring to be a great songwriter, this kind of input can be very valuable. As you develop as an artist, the input you get as you climb up the ladder is still just as harsh but it's coming from particular people such as your producer, your band mates and/or your record label. I tend to keep the input to those people alone as anything more than that is too much input at that stage of the game. By surrounding yourself with people who have recorded hundreds of number one hits in the type of music you are writing, the quality of input changes to a much more specific arena. Becoming specific in this way is important if you know what direction your music is going and where you want to go with it. Bottom line, if you are trying to please everyone else with your music but you, you will never write a great song. Listening to everyone else's opinion but yours leads to ignoring your natural instinct. As this instinct becomes lazy and you rely on other peoples opinions, you songs become sterile. It is far more important to follow your heart in what feels good to you then to rely on the opinions of others. At the end of the day, if you have the right outside opinions surrounding you that are tried and tested while staying true to your heart, you are far more likely to have the winning combination towards amazing music.

I develop a theme, which I flesh out lyrically and instrumentally. I do not play it initially for anyone. When I know it is a finished song, I demo the tune and send it out to my business partners, my co-writers and certain friends who have a love of what I do and who I am. How they respond has less meaning than how I feel about the song

Interesting topic Derek. I like to record it on my computer,put it up on my myspace for a few days. Let it run free. Maybe re-record it later.

I do go back and edit myself,lyrics mostly. Tighten things up.

I write to express a feeling I'm having in a musical form. I don't really think about what will happen with it afterward.

It depends - If I am writing for a client and I've written a temp track, then I post a sample online, leave a phone message and wait for client response. I *always* leave a voice message in addition to sending an email, very important! (If possible, I have a real phoine conversation as well). This allows the work to progress as fast as possible without losing the human interaction.

If I am writing for my band, I always ask my drummer Lamar for a first opinion. Mainly I'm checking to see if a new composition sounds too much like something I've already written or published, etc. If so, I try to save just one part of it, maybe a voicing or modality, and then I throw the rest away so that everything stays fresh.

I think we figured out once that only one in three things that pop into my mind ever make it all the way to the stage, but I examine each one early-on and make a quick decision about what I'm going to do with it. I suppose it's kinda like panning for gold.

It is important for me to have a few close friends generally fellow musicians who will be brutally honest about my songs. Immediate first reactions by others are very telling and should be considered. It is good to remember that different people will like different songs, so some times you have to forget criticism and trust yourself.

I play it for my wife. she has really good taste & gives great critiques. I don't usually make very many changes once I finish it to play it for her.

I think getting feedback is absolutely INVALUABLE....always wondered where you draw the line with co-writing? I mean...if some "feedback giver" spews out this mint suggestion of a line or title or melody change...(and it gets used) ~ isn't that co-writing?

I play it for my band and if they like it, we do it. Case Closed.

I wonder about people who pay some silly "Expert" to evaluate their songs. Unless that "expert" has written and performed hits in the exact same genre as me, why would I be dumb enough to think they have anything to say? If they were so good, they would be busy recording more hits.

Of course, if McCartney wanted to evaluate my songs, I would happily pay him $29.95. But Joe Shmoe from some online service? How the heck are they qualified?

With Gemini Soul, we work up a new song based on a simplified version recorded by our bassist, then play it live. Since we use a lot of improvisation, the song usually evolves over time before settling into its "shape." Audience feedback plays a big role in shaping our music.

I see my song writing as a work of art in the audio arena. The same as painting a picture or writing a story, I already have the big picture of the final results in my mind; therefore, I will tweek the final product where I feel it is needed and BAM...there it is. Take it or leave it...it's ME. I don't try to please others with my creations. I am not in a competition, nor am I seeking fame and fortune...beside that; I know that my work will not please all of the people even some of the time because we all have different likes and dislikes. My joy comes in completing a project that I can share with others.

Princess THEOPATRA

aka Theola Bright

Good question, Derek.

Usually I give myself the most negative criticism. I used to show my new tunes to my teacher when I was in colledge. I do play my tunes to my family and friends for a feedback. I do appreciate any criticism, especially constructive one :), however it's not the reason I may go back to the tune I wrote years ago to make some changes in coda, bridge or to redo the arrangement. It's just because how I feel about it. I know that nothing is perfect, you can always make it better.

I have entered competitions and paid for the critiques, but this gets expensive. I ask friends for feedback, but mostly I depend on my own 'gut' feeling if a song would get it's message out there. I'm not a performer, so it's hard for me to get responses other than through competitions.

I write and record a lot. I post my work on the web and watch how the website reacts. I'm in it for the creative process. If a song sticks to the wall... GREAT. If not... I love it as an offspring just the same.

Great question - I've been moderating a monthly critique session for songwriters in Austin, Tx for 13 years. It's free, always postive, and we encourage works-in-progress. We hear amazing things!

I have a two part process: First, I rehearse the song until I can really play it well, then I record it onto a Zoom H4 play it back and critique it myself; I am my own worse critic.

Second, if the song passes my scrutiny then I will sneak it in at the beginning of one of my sets to see how a live audience likes it, or I will play part or all of it during my sound check depending on the gig and who is present. Sometimes playing it live gives me additional ideas for the tune judging by the audiences responses as I am playing it. If I hold the audience's attention for part of the song and not other parts then I may adjust accordingly. After about the 6th time of playing it live, the song will be either a keeper or I will go back to the "drawing board".

V/R

Jim G.

The only time I let anyone see a song before it is complete is when I send a copy to my brother for his comments. When I play a song for the local NSAI group it is essentially done and tho they usually rip it to shreds, I am generally satisfied with what I wrote. Often songwriters who are not nearly as good as me offer advice that would change everything. It's a lot like editing an article, you want to change only that which needs changing and that which will truly improve it - not just change it for change's sake. Usually the advice offered would completely change the song and its meaning. Some people say there's not enough information in the song. To them I say I intend for each individual to use their imagination so that different people will get different things out of it. The one good advice I did get was a suggestion to make my second verse the first verse. The second verse was more powerful so I did move it to the first verse. I find some of these critics to be people who love to hear themselves talk. Myself, I tend to critique songs with a gentle hand unless it is something outlandishly awful or my pet peeve: full of misspellings. As Barbara Cloyd said "If one person finds fault with something in your song ignore it but if everyone says the same thing they're trying to tell you something." Almost always before I put a song out there for people to hear it is pretty much done even to the point of already being professionally recorded. I have confidence in my songwriting ability and others like my songs but the person I am trying most to please is myself. I played one song at Durango and a guy said my song was among the top 50 best songs he had heard in his entire life. I played this same song at a club in Gulf Shores and a beautiful young woman cried the whole time. This is the type of feedback that validates my songs. I have had other people record a couple of my songs and that is a compliment even though I felt they didn't do such a hot job.

For the second part of your query, yes, I do belive I have some songs that can not be improved on but for my other songs, if someone can offer a suggestion I agree with then I will gladly change them. I think a lot of songs fall in these general catagories: bad, not quite good enough, good enough, good, better than good and great.

Dereck, If you're considering doing a service that does song critiques for pay, (that is essentially what NSAI does) then I would say go for it. A very important factor would be the professionalism of your panel of critics. NEVER insult your client. Do it in a timely factor.You might want to go a step further and offer to pitch songs that meet certain standards. You might also offer to put up a list of mp3s of the picks of the month along with the critics comments so people can hear what a good song should be. Join NSAI and see how they do it and improve on that to set yourself apart.

You got please yourself, as the song goes, and not be listening to too many other voices--at the inception. I tend not to preview anything while in it's tender, fragile state of being. When I feel it's strong and healthy and can walk on two feet I'm open to input regarding the arrangement from other musicians I respect. I'll play it for friends and loved ones and then complete strangers

and am often surprised by the reactions. Then seeing how it "feels" played live, how it goes over with an audience will pretty much determine if your affection for the song is shared by anyone else on the planet. Sometimes it is, sometimes it ain't. No, I would never pay for a critique or take it to college!

Sometimes friends, other musicians, and family give me feedback about my songs. I try to stay open to criticism but it's difficult. For me my songs are like children and I love them all and try to look at them equally although I realize that they have different strengths and weaknesses. Eventually I put them out into the world and let them roam free. Ultimately, the song I'm working on has to excite me. It's never going to work if I don't believe in the material one hundred percent.

Music is a universal language no matter what gendre. It is also away to express oneself. The best way I have found to get good feed back is to play it live at the right event that works with in the boundares of that event. Country/Bluegrass/Folk/Pop/Gospel.

If people comment on a new original tune or/and you see there respones in the crowd you know toy got a good song.

I have a spot on Myspace that I use for posting demos. Some are fairly well developed, others just guitar and a scratch vocal.

It lets friends from all over have access. Some offer thoughts and opinions. Many don't! But it seems to be a sensible way to approach a feedback loop.

I think garageband.com is a great way to understand how people react to your music. You get tons of reviews from all kinds of folks. Unfortunately, you give them finished songs, so the feedback informs future compositions more than fixing a song in progress.

I usually share with fellow musicians once I'm at the point where I feel most comfortable with the tune. I have also began a small network of industry professionals that share some insight and constructive criticism when needed.

Playing live is usually the most direct way to get unbiased feedback. You can feel excitement versus antipathy quite clearly at a live music venue. Be especially aware of the *strangers* at your shows. If someone you don't know is completely absorbed in your song, you know you're on to something good.

I married a successful songwriter when very young, and he brought me along to all of his workshops, and I co-wrote every day for ten years with him, and without him saying "That's it! That's a single." On the day he passed away, I wrote my first "great song". Oh, poetic justice? No, just becoming deeply invested in what mentor I had lost....

Fast forward fifteen years later:

I perform weekly selling my products at large events--and I know a new offering is "commercial" when someone asks "what album is that song on?" and they want to buy it. Frankly, we are all communicators, and if we do it in a way where a customer wants to pay money for it, then that work is successful in its delivery and message. I never put anything out that doesn't pass that simple test that I call the "road test". It has given me the ability to know what my patrons want, and to get my own songs placed on television and on the charts. I have also had and still have the help (and brutal critiques) from some of the greatest writers in the business here in Nashville who keep me honest and humble as a successful indie. My craft is still in its infancy, and I always welcome input. But most importantly I still stay honest when I write. They tell you "write about what you know". The audience knows when it's YOUR story. And that's what sells, in the end. YOU!

I think somewhere in heaven my late husband is smiling :) Success can be bittersweet.

first of all dont play anything for anyone. as a writer an artist you should satisfy yourself. the object is to please yourself first.the process of writing songs is such a personal thing.to sit in a song writing class and have a bunch of god know who's tearing apart a song i wrote would be death to all.the last thing one needs especialy young writers is to have anyone tell you your songwriting is bad. what would they know to begin with.just imagine anyone having a go at john lennon after he wrote strawberry fields for ever or lucy in the sky. oh john its to spaced out know one will understand!jesus christ. song writing class.who invented that idea? imagine me asking my friend terry reid,"terry did you and steve marriot,take song wrting class to write your classic songs? the answer would be ,"chico f... off mate.so how i do it ,feel it get inspired and write from your heart and soul. play it to everyone when your finished. opinions and letting people put there 2 cents in is the kiss of death.hope that helps all you people who want to write songs. and gives you an insight on the concept of there are no rules,just do it. love chico rey

I just try to play my songs in front of different people in appropriate settings. If they are great, people will let you know. They will go out of their way to tell you they like it, and why they like it.

Most of the time, I get no feedback at all. I assume this means these songs are something less than great, but not necessarily bad.

The common thread is that about ten percent of my songs get unsolicited good commentary, and it is always the same songs that totally different people seem to like.

You can work and work to try and make a mediocre song good, but I think its an uphill battle. I think most song writers are better off simply moving to the next song. With this approach, it may take 100 songs to create a great album, but in the process you will have created about 10 great songs and 90 filler songs, all of which may be useful in different contexts.

Another approach is to agonize over something that might just be hopeless.

Some photographers will wait hours sitting in the same place for the perfect shot. Others spend all day shooting hundreds of pictures with the hope of getting that one perfect shot.

To me, its more satisfying and rewarding to use the shotgun approach. Your listeners will let you know if you are on to something, and you do not even have to ask. In the end, however, its all a matter of personal choice.

EADS

Wow, there are many comments here, this one might just get lost, but a couple pointers none the less.

- If seeking an opinion, make sure the song is complete or at least the draft is complete and play the whole song to the critic of your choice, there is nothing worse than someone playing a little piece of a song and often the performance can make or break a song.

- I like to trust my gut, sometimes even more than opinions and I believe you know very early in the writing phase whether or not you have a hit.

- Lastly careful to get to many opinions, 2 or 3 trusty ones will do. And of course the best critic is an audience...

The first song i wrote in 1982 i played to my Mother and she liked it, then i started to play some other songs in the groups i was in, much later i sent some to ISA and their response was good too, so i got them to record some of my songs at their studio using their singers, those songs are now on cdbaby and other download sites.

Good question, Derek!

But it's a triky one...

It makes me ask other questions?

What does really mean "improving a song"?

Is it changing it in order to turn it simmilar to a thousand already made hits???

Like someone said here, "Someone’s trash is someone else’s treasure".

In the other hand, at least in my case, it works better asking for feedback for example on MySpace.

People who know you in person, tend to give you unacurate feedback.

Some love everything you do no mather what.

Others will always think you will never be good enough just because you live next door!

Thanks for always making me ask myself questions!!!

All the best,

Nuno

I've always wondered how others handle this myself, so thanks Derek for bringing this into the spotlight.

I usually send off a rough recording of the song to a small, select group of friends for brutally honest feedback. The song is always 90-95% complete at this stage, and my friends reactions will determine whether I do one of three things;

A.keep and polish for final recording

B.Rearrange/Try different feels, etc.

C.Drop it and start over. (sometimes I will recycle parts of the track for future use.)

I usually don’t offer up songs for anyone to hear while I’m still in the process of composing (unless I’m working in a band) because I feel that it ceases to be my song.

Good question, Derek,

And a lot of great comments.

I'm no different than most.

On to the next question,

"What do you do with the SONG comments you receive?"

You can't really please everyone.

What some like, others find troublesome. So you have to follow your own internal instincts.

Even hits can contain a wart, it's what makes us human.

That's my rant, and I'm stickin' to it.

Cheers

First, I write a sond that I like. If I dont like it, how can I expect sopme one elst to? Then, I play it for my band to get their input/feedback. Regardless or their comments though, if I feel like I have a streong song, I start playing it out for the fans to see what their response is. Some times it take a little while for them to warm up to it so need to be patient if you really believe in the song. One song of mine that took a little while for people to warm up with just won song of the year at a radio station in Cleveland.

Songs are all subjective. A reviewer at NSAI might hate a song that I get more request for than any other song I do. The thing is, KEEP WRITING!!!!!!!!!

Hello Derek, I hope you're doing find. I reed all your advices on cdbaby.com and I thank you for all this work you made. You surely gave me strenght when I was so & so... Well...To know if a song is good, I have to remember it on the morning and get invaded. Then I play it and play it until I forget I am the author. The more pleasure I have with, the better is the song. There is like an evidence with good songs, a real flow of inspiration and it sounds direct. Then of course my children...If they unconsciously sing the song I win...and the public during concerts...I Have composed 40 originals Blues and of course I think there are all good.

My best, take care

I play them live and check the audience response through the song for strong parts and where I'm losing them. But it's true that feedback can be simply confusing since one man's trash is another man's treasure.

I've been writing for a livin' since 1976 so I pretty much know when to rewrite, but I still run a song by the publisher, or another writer with experience. Remember this guys, you have it down in what ever version, tape, cd's digital whatever you sing your song into. You are not going to loose it. Nothing wrong with trying to make it better. Never be adverse to re-writing.

This is the best advice I can give anyone.

Typically my wife hears it first, then my two closet honest friends, then I play it out for crowd reaction, if all is well there, I give it a shot on ourstage.com. I have let producers and song pluggers give their take on it before, but the first part is my typical avenue. I write a lot of songs that no one hears because I know it sucks when I'm done listening to it so only the ones I think have potential are heard by anyone but me.

I tend to be extremely critical with myself through the entire process. I work with a singer whom will throw suggestions into the mix, but most often I firmly grasp the track until it's completion without much feedback. I than turn to criticism in the recording process for arrangement ideas and/or other instrumentation. To me, feedback plays a part only when I am working with someone else and the writing is 50/50. If it is just me, I roll with my own gut instincts; however that sounds.

I've found TAXI to be a great source of critique. Their talented staff consists of people with tons of experience in the music industry (look at the TAXI website to get an idea).

The best part is, they have no idea who you are. They are not your friends or family who love you and your songs no matter what. They are paid for their experience in the music industry, and their honesty, which is sometimes brutal and most times beneficial.

It's a win-win, because when you submit a new song, besides getting an in-depth critique, you also have the potential to get your song forwarded to opportunities for TV/movie/video game placement and much more.

Aside from TAXI, if our band is on set break at a gig, and someone comes up and comments on a specific song they really enjoyed, that is great feedback. How often have you praised a band for "sounding awesome" or "tight" or whatever? Sure it's a nice ego inflator, but if someone recalls a specific song or moment, that is worth far more than any generic praise.

I can't speak for every songwriter out there, but personally I strive to write songs that can affect people in one way or another.

play it for friends who's opinion i respect and also play it live in low pressure situations.

We record a demo and then play the song for a couple of selected friends.

All the best

Bersalieri

I perform the tune and wait for responses....private and public gigs.

When I was a member of GMIA, located in Atlanta GA, I would go to their songwriter meetings. That organization was great for everyone. Now, I write with some musicians who have trusted me enough to write the lyrics without coming back to them. Some may choose, if we are writing the song together, to go back and forth with lyrical changes. Sometimes the music is sent to me. If I feel good about the music I start writing. I learned from GMIA that you should write the whole song first. Afterward, re-write, re-write, and re-write. Personally I need to become a member of GMIA again to attend their meetings. I learned so much from GMIA members.

Open Mic. night. Kalamazoo has several bars that host open mic nights, and these have been the best places for me to try out new songs. There are always a good number of other musicians there, either having finished performing, or waiting. I figure if I can get these folks to say something good about a new song I did, it shouldn't need too much revision. But as a songwriter, I'm pretty much tweaking my songs all the time anyway. When it comes to critiques, we're always hardest on ourselves.

I'd like to answer this comment:

"TO THOSE THAT SAY THEY DON’T SEEK FEEDBACK:

Does that mean your songs can not be improved?

Or that they can be improved, but only you know how to improve it?

Or that others might have great suggestions for improvements, but you just don’t want to hear it?"

First, there's always room for improvement. As to whether or not only I know how to improve it, that depends on who else has the suggestion and the overall value of the suggestion itself. I am currently working with another songwriter via email, collaborating of a few songs. I think its important to work with others since it changes your point of view somewhat and improves your own songwriting abilities.

As far as to if I want to hear suggestions from others, that took depends on the validity of the comment. When someone asks me for advice, I give them my honest opinion (this can be dangerous, but I'll save that story for another discussion). However, I have found that most of the unsolicited comments come from those who don't really know what they're talking about or just don't get the musical gist of what I'm trying to do. For these people, no, I'm not interested in what they have to say.

Advice on your creation is hard to hear. It need's to be someone who's had success in your field.

I have a few guys I let hear my stuff.

But mostly I listen to my heart, and TOMMY MAC @ FM STUDIOS, emeryville. He know's me, and how to TALK to me. That way I hear what he's saying, and not the HATING OF MY WORK!! That's the big thing getting out of your own way.

We hear our own songs from creation, over, and over again. That makes it hard to hear things objectively.

My songs are like my KID's. I want to see them all suceed!!

Mike Meezy

We have Works In Progress events where songwriters get together as a peer group to give constructive criticism. If one person has a problem understanding a part of your song it could be just their issue. If you hear the same feedback from everyone then you probably need to rewrite the song to make it more clear.

Ultimately you know when your song is a hit. Or if you don't need it to be a hit, you will know if it's good while you are writing it. After I'm done I have 3 people I play it for: My mom, brother and boyfriend - each of whom have an ear and are the only people I trust to be honest. But again, they are usually just reaffirming what I already know.

I don't look for feedback from anyone really - who cares? I write songs for myself, and if I like them, who cares what anyone else thinks? That's a lot of self-importance to carry around. I personally see songwriting (or any creative process) as being an act of opening to the energy that's out there for all of us, and letting it flow thru me. THerfore all I have done is process it, write it down, etc. Very seldom do I make any major changes, and if I do it's still not a thought process. at least not on the good ones;)

peace.

When you're writing songs

follow your feelings,let it

flow. When it comes time to

sell them all you can do is

raise them up the flagpole

and see who salutes.

You can never tell what the next hit is going to be.Don't change what you did because someone

doesn't like a particular phrase.Write from your honest

feelings put them out there and

you'll find an audience.

Hi Derek,

I generally live with a song for a long time: Over the years, I have realized that “time” is my greatest collaborator, and experience has taught me that editing oneself is a most valuable tool. After changes and re-writes, when I feel reasonably confident that my idea is strong and solid enough to pass my own scrutiny, I will play it to someone whose ears I truly trust and who isn’t afraid to criticize my work – that is my manager of the last 24 years, Diane Poncher.

It is important to build a relationship with someone who is a fan of your creativity and artistry, and who understands your goals, BUT who ultimately puts the “song” first. As songwriters, we become a little temperamental regarding our “muse”, so it is crucial to respect and acknowledge the one you’ve chosen for your feedback. That said, stay true to what your gut feelings tell you, for these instinctive feelings are what uniquely make YOU the songwriter.

-- Martin Page

Interesting posts! Yes I find strangers when you play live will come up to tell you which songs they like. Put out coasters that ask their faves and you will get good comments.

-i think most are right when they say you usually know in your gut if its good- especially when people tell you they're singing it in the shower! Then you know you have your hook. Also good to have fresh ears when listening back!

If your song doesn't hit you, there is little point in asking for feedback. Songwriting is an art, not a science in my opinion. There is something spiritual and inspiring that enters the process. It is something personal and self rewarding. When its done there is a sense of fulfilment;thats your feedback. If you feel good about your songs, chances are everybody else will. You don't have to be famous to write great songs, just as much as you dont have to be a five star chef to make a great dish. Making your song sell is a different story. It depends on who you know in the music biz and if they think your song has that money making sound?

If I really want feedback? I'll play it for people but leave a separate recorder going on then leave the room, and when everyone leaves I can play back what they really thought.

Well, not to be a snob, but most people don't get the whole songwriting/production thing at all, so I am usually wasting my time trying to get feedback until the song is done. I don't know how many times I have played a song for someone and usually they have no imagination so giving them a taste of a song when it is in the writing or production phase, since most of my music is written for electric, not acuostic, has been a waste of energy. I like to trust my instincts and go with my idea. Every time someone has a "suggestion", it has been mostly a lousy one. I have tried to co-write with many people but they don't seem to be able to "share" ideas. Most songwriters or wanna-be's are trying to write CMT songs or Drop D radio pop punk and that is just not what I am doing at all.

I play it for my band, who will help me arrange it. They are pretty honest and offer good suggestions. I play it at jam sessions. If a musician I respect likes it, that's good. And the ultimate test is the talking crowd one. If the crowd stops talking, that's also good.

I generally just write the song and if I am happy with it, it's done. I'm not that interested in how other folks would do it. They aren't me and have a different set of emotions,history, experiences etc. So they can't really help much. I know this is probably contrary to this blog but i thought I would just toss that in. Peace.

When I create a song the feedback I depend upon is that from the other players who wish to contribute by offering to record with me. as I don't expect any compensation for our efforts we are satisfied with knowing we created art for the sake of are own enjoyment.

I create music that is for music as medicine, so I try it on groups to see what response I get. If it elicits a response that was the intention of the music, then I know I'm on track.

I don't ask for feedback while I'm writing a song. I do pay attention to how audiences react to my songs when I play them at gigs. That is the most accurate feedback I know of.

if i really want feedback on a song i'm writing i'll crank the volume of my amp, lean my guitar over it and sort of hover around.

that sort of feedback works for me.

I have a friend who is a phenomenal songwriter in her own right, and usually I play them for her before I play them out. Also, audience response is a great barometer for the quality of a song.

Whenever possible I will take my songs into workshops. But there aren't many of those here in Santa Cruz.I also play my songs to my songwriter friends to get their input, as well as guaging the reception of songs when I play a gig. And, of course, most importantly, I need to get my wife's approval before it leaves the house.

Hi Derek and thanks for the forum.

Feedback............

1. All your friends are going to say that it's great.

2. Some of your enemies are going to say that it's great.

3. Because EVERYBODY'S taste in music is different (thank God) you are obviously going to get a 50/50 split.


Feedback..........


well I write and record a song that I'M HAPPY WITH and really to me....that is all that matters.

Cheers

Arnie

www.arnioe.com

If i think a new song is commercially viable i make a good work tape of it and go out and start pitching the sucker. If i get some good response i demo it. Ironically, i've had more songs cut from just a work tape. Aside from that some of the songs I'm most proud of will likely never get covered by anyone but me.

I don't seek feedback. Everyone has their own idea on what makes a great song. The songs that are the ones winning competitions are the ones that put me to sleep. In the end, my music is about pleasing me and letting me sing what I want to sing. If I was a professional songwriter (making my entire living from songwriting), I might be interested in feedback, and I'd probably take feedback as whether I was hired for the next job. Songwriting like that is formulaic and it's difficult to go wrong. Not my bag though. As far as people buying my music and me buying theirs, it's not about the song. It's about the hype, the feel, the marketing, the performance, the musicianship. A crap song can be turned into something magical. It's all subjective anyway.

I also think people have forgotten how to feel. The music I've been hearing on tv and radio which are apparently "great songs" just leaves me cold. A song that's chosen for such doesn't mean it's a great song. It just means that it's commercially viable. It feeds the lowest common denominator's desire for simple radio fodder. Creativity is only limited by skill or lack thereof.

Hello Derek :o) I like it so !

Usually I propose hearing song people near to me as girlfriend, friends and musicians friend. I listen what they tell me about new

song and usually I take the better

to improve my work.

Also I have a mentor .. He's not a musician but is a great listener for

many genres and help me so much.

I think it could be just one direction but we need to understand

what's happened out of our circle.

Internet is a great possibility

to show the tunes to many people we can.

Peace

Max

I believe that stylistic or genre types will dictate, to an extent, how you go about showing others your work. If you're a singer songwiter, then you can play your song to someone face to face. As a DJ / Producer working in the digital realm, I'll export a mix or rough draft as a 16bit 44.1kz wav file, add it to a 'Rough Drafts' playlist, and listen to it constantly. Sometimes I'll just hit random, and see how it compares to some of my favourite songs. Also, sometimes I'll burn a CD to play in the car, checking for things that jump out in the mix.

Where possible, I try NOT to let people hear unfinished songs, as a first impression by someone who hasn't heard you before may not be favourable. They won't know it's in the embryo stage.

Also, I'll drop an almost finished tune in a live mix where it fits, and see if people stay on the floor. If someone also asks about the tune, great! When you're being honest with yourself, you know when something's wrong, just maybe not what you have to do to fix it. I'm not convinced that friends are the right way to get criticism, as often responses can be vague when it comes to specifics about what's good or bad. As well, some musicians base their opinion on their particular genre type, or what they think they'd do. An Indie Rock singer who is a friend of mine keeps offering to sing on my stuff, but he's not remotely compatible to my style, so his opinion of my music isn't valid to me, as he also hasn't heard the music I'm influenced by.

Have faith in yourself, but try to be honest too.

B-Dub

Great question Derek. I find that friends and family are the worst to send your music to - most have an agenda. I agree with everyone who plays new songs at shows as that is what we used to do and it worked out pretty well. As I only record now and don't play out I find the best approach is through internet radio and podcasts. Itunes is the best indicator as it lists in order the most popular songs and this in turn helps with writing.

That is a good question, Derek. Usually, when someone in the band brings a song idea and presents it to the rest of us, they do so with the knowledge that eveyone in the band is going to fold, spindle, and mutilate the thing before it comes out as a finished product! All of us pretty much come up with different ideas to try, and either keep or discard. However, the primary songwriter has veto power, if he feels strongly enough about a part of the song he wants done a certain way, the rest of us respect that. By the time the song is played in front of an audience, it is a finished product. www.myspace.com/ozknozz

Songs are like paintings some finish off quick and some take years...I just keep going back & touching up till i feel they are ready...are they ever ready? I have 2 draw a line when 2 move on..

then I don't care what anyone thinks...I run them by friends and respected music people...i do miss the old school workshops..

First, I would like to point out two problems that I don't think other posters have brought up. I call these syndromes "creator's/performer's syndrome" and "familiarity deafness".

1. Creator's Syndrome. We tend to really love what we create, because it comes out of us. It is a part of ourselves and if we love ourselves (which we should) then we will tend to love what we create. But that does not mean that others will love it. Related to Creator's Syndrome is Performer's Syndrome. If we also perform the piece then we can get into a "grove" in which we will enjoy playing that instrument and singing that song, over and over. The listeners, however, are NOT performing the piece, so they are not getting that tactile/body-kinematic/voicing sensual feedback. If one is going to write music that OTHERS will love as much as the creator, then the creator has to, somehow, acquire the objectivity of a listener (one who did not invent the song, is not performing it and is encountering it for the first time).

2. Familiarity Deafness. I have noticed that this syndrome can be very difficult to overcome, especially during the CD production process. As you perform and re-perform a song (in one's studio), you start hearing only what you EXPECT to hear and you become less and less able to notice timing, vocal and other weaknesses. I have even had cases where, if I haven't listened to a song for several days, when I replay it I will hear a mistake at a certain point on the track but when I listen just a second time, the mistake has mysteriously disappeared -- so strong can be the effect of Familiarity Deafness. There are weaknesses that I discover only months after having released a CD. I quit listening to that CD long enough that I lost my sense of familiarity with it and that gave me a new, more objective set of ears -- only at that point do I notice those weaknesses (but now it's too late).

A good way to overcome Creator's Syndrome and Familiarity Deafness is to have other people listen to your songs and give you feedback.

However, I agree with other posters who state that it's not a good idea to elicit criticism before you consider your song nearly finished. Once you think your song is done then criticism can be very helpful because the reviewer will often give you a new perspective on your song and maybe that new perspective will make you decide that your song still requires some major changes, or just a few tweaks here and there (or no changes at all -- it's always up to you).

I started producing my own songs just a few years ago and, initially, these songs were ones I had written many years ago while in college. I loved my own songs so much that, when I produced them, I lengthened them with longer musical interludes and verses (Creator's Syndrome).

However, I have changed my mind about song length. I believe that, in general, short songs (3:30 or less) are preferable. My reasoning is: if a listener really loves your (short) song then they will play it over and over if they want to hear more of it, which reinforces their idea that your song is great. However, if the song is even just a little too long, then the listener may start to tire of the song before it is done, which will reinforce in their minds the notion that the song is not very good. so write short songs, whenever possible, and let the listeners play them over and over again when they want to hear more of it.

Also, over time, I have changed my mind also about the nature of lyrics. I used to try to make my lyrics be as much like poems as possible. Then my mother-in-law listened to some of my songs one day and said that, with songs, "less is more" and that my songs were "too wordy". I went through all of the songs on my already produced CDs and found lots of words, here and there, that I could actually cut out and that this process of word removal actually improved the songs. So I plan to release, at some future point, these reworked songs on new CDs (with a few reworked ones interspersed among the new ones -- that way an old song never has to be "trapped in stone" just because it has already been released on a CD).

I recently came upon an old book: The Craft of Lyrics Writing by Sheila Davis, 1985. She gives many strong arguments for why song lyrics should NEVER be viewed as poems. Also, I was gratified to discover that I had been, instinctively, following a lot of her advice. But I also learned some new things about how to critique one's own lyrics and thus improve them.

Sometimes, my songs will start out as music and then I will come up with an idea for the lyrics. Other times I will write a poem and then seek music to express that poem, but this process always ends up radically altering the poem as it is turned into lyrics.

While I am writing songs I tend not to listen to the music of others. A year ago I decided to not write any songs for two months and, instead, spend several hours each day listening to the songs of other hopeful artists on Sonicbids (a website where wanna-be artists post electronic press kits, most containing sample songs).

I listened to several thousand songs over those two months and noticed that the majority of the songs have serious weaknesses (they take too long to get going; go on for way too long; have weak vocals; non-tight harmonies; mediocre lyrics, not enough musical variation, etc.). After this listening experience, I went back and listened to my own, already produced CDs and decided that many of my own songs could also use improvement.

WHEN to solicit feedback is another issue. In general you have to be ready (mentally) to hear that negative feedback, otherwise it won't have a useful effect. The easiest road to self-improvement is change your own mind on your own. Having others tell you what you're not ready to hear is harder on the ego.

Hey Derek,

Great question. Jon Aldrich, (who mentioned in our classes that you were one of his very favorite students), would be proud! On that note, I myself seek out the opinion of a small number of composers and songwriters whose opinions I honestly respect. These include some Berklee professors, (most especially Pat Pattison), a select few musicians who are my friends, and others who are acquaintances whose opinions I value. I guess that it comes down to me seeking the advice of those whose music and talents I myself respect and admire (too bad Bob Dylan and Paul Simon aren't within reach)! Thanks again for creating this thought-provoking blog...PeAce, Billy Moschella, Jr.

Well, trying not to sound negative on this topic.

I once shaired on of my ideas with a player I was working with.

He was friends of a band I will not mention.

He was so excited about the Riff I wrote he asked me if he could show it to this somewhat famous

band it and if they used it we could get royalties for it.

As it turns out that band used that riff and that song went right to #1 in Canada.

Me I got the #1 Shaft.

I hated that artist who did this to me for years.

One day I woke up to a new light I could no longer hold this hatred inside.I to come to terms with what had happened.

Now althoe I'm not famous for writing it........ I am gratefull to here when it gets played. It's someting I wrote and I'm even more proud to see how far it went.

It has given me the confidance I needed to know that I can write something that big.

Even thoe I'm not credited I feel somewhat accomplished and I would gladley share my ideas again......... but.....you can bet I'll protect myself better in the future.

Alix Azoff

When I want feedback on new songs I will play them for many different types of people, a wide variety of age groups and all with different tastes in music.

I will look for the one song that gets the most comments and the one consistent comment.

The consistent comments I believe are the most honest and give the best feedback.

I play a song for a few friends. I also go to songwriting workshops sometimes. They are very useful, just like you (Derek) said!

It's hard to take, but the criticism is what helps you hone it--editing and re-editing is always the hardest part for me.

I usually record the song with my friends who are great players with open minds, ears and hearts. Then upon some listening I can determine if it needs adjustments or to be trashed. Most of my tunes eventually end up in the book. Some of them are good right away while others need to be re done several times.

Lately I rewrite and then rewrite and then rewrite and then finally after I think it's done I edit myself (even though it's painful). I then perform it a few times (or ten) for an audience, get feedback or just to see if they stop talking listen and clap after the song is done. I'm recording a track this month that I picked specifically because my audience kept mentioning it. One guy said it was his favorite song. Getting into a studio to record and demo something always clarifies the song structure for me too. I always end up cutting and editing things in recording sessions, for some reason my LARGER ears are available then..maybe it's the also very large dollar signs that are passing before my eyes every second (I guess I work best under pressure with a deadline!). My partner also has a good pair of ears I trust, he's a songwriter and guitar player too. I usually know it's pretty good if he comes running into the room and says " Hey, that's a real winner Les!"

We usually upload it when we are happy with it and see what the reaction is,if you really want to know what people think, make the track available free and the downloads you get will show you whether people like it or not.

Hi Derek ! Mostly, for me, by the time someone hears it, it is pretty much done. For me it is a private process. And when I've said everything I want to say in the song, arranged it in a way that makes me really feel productive and happy, then I share it.

My songs are uniquely my own and therefore I would lose my personal interpretation if I was constantly asking for others opinions on them before I was finished. There have been occasions in the studio when I would ask my co-producer if I needed to come up with a third verse or would it be ok to go back to the first verse again. Or, is this bridge necessary or am I dragging the song on longer than need be. I do not necessarily follow a prescribed format for songwriting which I think helps to make my sound create more of a variety and interest to more people. Working with improvisation was a big help to me. It gave me the courage to develop my own style. I've had many mentors along the way, most of whom are the artists I grew up with. Inspiration is a great teacher. If you listen very closely you can hear you own voice.

Hi Derek! To be honest with you, I don't get feedback from people. The biggest thing for me is to come up with the concept. I become my own worst critic. If I decide it is good, I will go forward with getting it published. At this point I want to see how other people feel about it AFTER I publish it.

I learned this when I used to critique music on the radio when I was in college. I always had something negative to say. Case in point: You Are So Beautiful to Me. The singer was HORRIBLE in my world, but the singer laffed all the way to the bank on that one. There are other tunes that I hear and for the life of me I couldn't figure out why would anyone pay for that? Well, I have stopped criticising and I have started producing. What I want to learn is how to get the greatest amount of people listening to what I hear. I want my tunes in front of the world. Let them be the critics. I'm sure the playing field would be even then.

Chuck

I used to write all the parts, then record and mix the whole song myself and would never show it to anyone until I was completely happy with it myself. Then, when I finally showed it to people they would be either blown away or at least impressed at what could be achieved on a 4-track recorder. If they weren't blown away I'd look for weaknesses in the song (length, lyrics, dynamics etc) and make a mental note of it, then carry on writing new stuff.

That was a good mental exercise but I went so deep into it I started going loopy (hearing phasers on people's voices etc). So now I simply write the song on an accoustic guitar, show it to the band and together we come up with a version that gets filtered again when our producer gets his hands on it. Much more sociable and less time/life/mind consuming. The tracks's getting feedback throughout the whole process this way and shapes itself using all our opinions. We play early versions to friends to get more input then go back into the studio and make adjustments if necessary. By the time it's finished it's been through several layers of scrutiny and has reached a point where we're all happy with it.

I know it's finished when my heart tells me so. I have always found other writers to be the hardest to please, taking into account that every one has their own agenda whether they admit it or not, and that art and beauty are subjective. I trust my own creative judgement and trust that some of them will be good, some of them not so, but all of them will have been sincere efforts to do the best I could at that point in time. After the songs are out in the general public I listen to my fans when they speak to me and pay attention to every word they say about what it is they liked and why it spoke to them. Usually what they heard in the song is light years from what I may have been saying from my perspective as the artist, but they, as the listener, gleaned something unique to their personal perspectives. I find the artist-audience relationship to be very cool most of the time.

Derek,

One of the things that is wrong with music today...I call them "Song Factory's"....Where people write together in an office at a publishing company....As I see it the songs with substance and lasting ability were, or should I say are? Inspired songs, written by one person, the person that had the inspiration....Lyrics can be, Ain't or what'd, or can't, or many other contractions, and should be.... Such as Ray Charles' "What'd I Say" or Jimmy Reeds' "Ain't That Lovin' You Baby"...Proper Grammer is not what a song needs to move your soul....What about James Brown's lyrics?....Or Neil Youngs? Or The Rolling Stones? Or the Beatles? Or Jimi Hendrix?....A song factory cheapens creativity....In the past twenty years or so how many songs have been written in a song factory that make you remember the lyrics?...However, can you forget the lyrics from an inspired song that was written by one of the best writers in the world such as Bob Dylan?....I am against song factorys as you may be able to tell, in a big way. A couple of good friends may get together and come up with an inspired song but I do not think proper grammer or assembly line songs have anything I want to hear.

Thanks,

David Street

I attend a very loving,yet highly discriminating songwriters group when I'm in town, and I'm always open to everyones opinion, including my own. I also share with peers at casual get togethers, where our instruments come out sooner or later, usually sooner :0)

When I have a smaller gig, or house concert, I often ask my audience if they mind hearing a work in progress

, and I've always been met with great enthusiasm, including naming the tune. Out come my glasses and a lyric sheet, and folks really feel like they're getting on the inside of the creative process. (BTW, I only do this when I already know the tune is killer)

Steve Seskin mentioned this blog in his workshop today...and we talked a bit about it afterward.

I think that a lot of people don't value critique because they haven't had very helpful critique. But it's part of most serious artists' learning process, whether it's painters in a group critique or classical pianists at a master class.

I've been writing by just me since the very beginning. It comes natural when I have a song & melody coming up then I'd remember them, refining them in a couple of days till I think it's been naturally written with the new born joy since each of them is all my babies and I haven't placed preferences among them in first place.

As usual days I haven't really searched for commenting from listeners. Yet as I remember, many of the comments would come from listeners after a gig who would come by themselves to talk to me sharing the feeling they have about my songs and performance. And I like it this way when listeners share their thoughts by their own intuition with all sorts of adjectives which makes the songwriting become so interesting. It's like if the songwriting feels like a main dish that songwriter cook so well, the comments would feel like a chocolate dessert that makes the taste level sweetened in some way. Somehow, the main dish is good enough along the way.

Overally I still tend to write just on my own, and keep it this way till now. If I'd participate in a project of different artist and musician, I would be willing to adapt to their wish and favored style, by revising the first version I come up with, since I hope the members I collaborate with can truly feel the spakle and enjoyment from their intuitive feedback, that's a reason I would try to adapt to them and make the

ulimate presentation of the song baby as sweet as can be to the most connected member in a project, since that means a lot to them.

In my songwriting journey I've been sticking to orignal layout of my most primitive thoughts without having others involved. I store this originality in self-release album. That is a happy decision in the first phase since I love the originality of them very much. And coming for the next , I am ready to change for listening to more ideas of either commenting, reshaping, or re-versioning from collaborators if I am writing songs for an artist and collaborating with musicians.

Thanks Derek & Everyone :=) Rock on - - -

When i play out I can tell very clearly what songs are working and why.

Usually I post a rough draft on myspace and see if there's any response. The best songs usually do get some positive feedback.

But I have also noticed that people respond better to mastered tracks that unmastered ones. So that is half of it too.

Maybe the words' connotation scare people too. In many people's minds, critique=criticism and feedback=unpleasant noise.

If you asked people if they would welcome an opportunity for an astute teacher or pro songwriter to tell them what is GREAT about their song...as well as suggest where and how they might change parts of it so that the song will be better IN TERMS OF THE GOALS OF THE WRITER...

(I don't get why people resist ...it's not as if we're carving marble that can't be uncarved if we have second thoughts. You always have the option to change a song back.)

I too judged songs, for a song contest. As a first-round judge, I listened to a few hundred and all but 3 were ordinary to really bad (cliched, monotone, awkward). Some pointers from a pro and most would have been so much better.

My song is usually finished by the time I bring it to a live audience. I find that the response I get from the audience is usually a pretty good indication of whether it's going to fly or not. Then I bring it to my producer who will give me suggestions. We'll record the song, burn a few CDs, and pass it on to a few close friends for further critique.

It depends on how complete of a vision I can have for a song I write on my own. If I get stuck at the "2/3" point (as my cowriter in LaME. < Cameron and I often do) I'll seek his or - John's input on which direction they think it could go. If I feel the song is written completely enough on its own, I merely compare my gratification of it to others in LaME., or on occassion other close musician friends. I shared a brand new demo online with fans a few years back, and with the incredibly long gestation period LaME. material usually has, it was too far ahead in our compositional journey for it to make sense to anyone else at that point. Now, we usually wait until it's been tested and approved repeatedly at rehearsals, and then directly ask the fans what they thought of the "new song" anytime we introduce one live. Thanks for the question Derek.

¶ Taylor

I use a network of friends who are into new music. This gives me a guide as to whether or not the song is working or not.

Then, there's the musician/writer crowd and they can talk about 'possibilities'.

Sometimes, it's just give things time. Time for the producer in me to know what to do next.

I take the new song fold it like an accordian, tape it to a mini-rocket and send it flying...if it comes back to me,then I feel I perhaps have something.......

No really the band gives good feedback, one song Ray said he had a hard time not crying when I played it the first couple of times....then it is always like opening a present to see how others respond. We have had some really great responses lately. and some constructive comments...Thank you!! Derek!!!!

Rachel

The most honest feedback for us has been from total strangers...

A woman on my space told us

"Your singer sounds constipated and you need to teach him more than one note"...

We did not change that particular song but the next few songs we wrote were more melodic

and our singer tried a different approach.

Derek,

Thanks for the opportunity to provide input. This is a great service for songwriters.

I am strictly a lyricist. I've been writing lyrics for years, and have developed a fairly proficient ability to distinguish good lyrics from bad. That doesn't mean that everything I write is good, it's just that I recognize my bad work rather quickly!

When finished, I always run the lyrics by my wife for her response--and I have made changes as a result of her input (but don't tell her, she'll only want a share of the royalties!).

I then give the lyrics to my songwriting partner. For the last 20+ years my primary writing partner has been John Schwab, lead singer of McGuffey Lane. John and I will discuss any lyric changes he might want, then he writes the melody. We then look at the combination of lyrics and music to make sure everything works. Probably 90% of the songs we have written together have ended up on a CD released by John, McGuffey Lane, or other artists. The bottom line is that John and I have both been writing for a long time, and we don't really seek feedback--we just do it and it always seems to work.

My most recently recorded song was cowritten with J.D. Blackfoot, who included the song on his latest CD. The process was the same as I've always used--we provided our own feedback to each other, and the song just came together.

Hey Derek, Sorry to getting back to you with this reply so late. I would like to thank you for the opportunity to participate with my input to your question. What we did for Kayla Bliss was we put about seventeen songs on a couple of CDs and printed out feedback sheets with the title of each song on it with spaces for people to give their comments. We gave the feedback packages to songwriter mentors; producers; studio engineers; friends; family members; DJs and etc. People have commented from the lyrics, the music, the arrangement and also gave ideas on how to make the song better. We complied all the feedback together and was able to make decisions on what songs need more improvement, which song needed the vocal and music adjusement. Some songs needed the lyrics to be re-written and adjusted. Some people was able to let us know what songs should go on the ablum ans what song to leave out. The majority of the people that gave their feedback were women. I like this feedback session.

I fondly recall the day when I finally realized the only opinion I needed to worry about was mine.

Before arriving at this feeling of independence, I found it helpful to be part of a composer's workshop and have my music played in front of my peers and gauge MY feelings about it then, as opposed to how I felt about it alone in my room. If I still felt the same connection to the music in both situations then I knew I was done regardless of what anyone had to say about the piece.

Songs are ultimately very personal, so playing a new one is sort of like leaning over the Grand Canyon for a peek - a real thrill on LOTS of levels.

I usually run things by the band, or friends in the local songwriting community. There is often a give and take and objectivity when working with others that is not possible when working alone. It's amazing how much I might like some lyric or melody that gets a "that was weird" from listeners.

I've posted songs online on my website for comment. It's amazing how gentle the professionals are, and how blunt the online folks can be. I've pulled songs if I get too much $%*& or other symbol-worded feedback online, as this really doesn't help anyone.

For songs I want to shop out, I send them to NSAI for professional feedback. It's gotten me a TV ad, so I'm happy with the service.

As for my alter-ego songwriter, the one who writes earth-science songs to help my students study, all I have to do is sing in class. College students are amazingly direct.

I have toyed around with the idea of bringing some of our long time fans into the process but we haven't really done that yet.

What we *have* done is:

1. Gotten feedback from producers and engineers during pre-production (kind of hard to avoid when you're in that situation).

2. Gotten feedback from close friends (almost always other musicians and people we have worked with in some way in the past)

3. Played new songs live and tried to gauge the audiences reaction. Not an exact science by any means but if somethings *really* not working you'll probably be able to tell.

4. Gotten feedback from managers / A&R people. Again, kind of unavoidable if these people are already involved.

First, it has to pass by me, and I'm my own harshest critic. If I like the framework of what I've done, I'll run it by two trusted people, my wife and my producer.

I think as songwriters, we all know deep inside if something works, or not. We share a tune in progress with others to tweak it and make it complete.

When a song shows up, I play it live for at least a couple shows to see the reaction from the crowd as well as the reaction from myself, the movements I make or the emotion the song brings to the performance. From there, you just know when it's right and when it's not

As a record producer, and probably for songwriters too, you can always imagine certain people you know as typifying a certain kind of audience and guage their re-action. But as one who plays mostly my own versions of what I call "real songs", here's a real tough test if you are game.

Imagine a good but not absolutely top song in your genre. Say a Beatle song like I Should Have Known Better, a fifties rocker like say Jenny Jenny... a country near classic like say Second Fiddle. Is your new song as good as that? If not, rewrite it or just play something else. I call this the Second Fiddle test. Yeah, it's tough but your audience can always go home and listen to Irving Berlin or Bob Dylan, they've got plenty to choose from.

Derek,

My songs are pretty much finished when I let others hear them. I try not to be too influenced by what others say about my songs. It seems that pleasing myself produces better songs rather than listening to random advice. Of course I want people to like my music, but I try not to worry about that too much. I've had some songs critiqued professionally, but it seemed like they really hadn't listened to the songs at all - it seemed like they were just trying to make a buck.

I play piano in a music variety show called THe Carolina Opry several nights per week. I also play a 15 minute solo pre-show so I have to get warmed up early in the evening...usually when everyone else in the cast is coming in to work. These guys are very very talented...singers, composers, arrangers and A list players. The piano is over in the wings before placement on staage for the pre show. To try a new song out...I just play it during my warm up time and see how many people stop and listen :)

These things have helped me improve my songwriting:

-songwriters' critique group (people who really listen, are honest and positive about what they like, where they get lost, sidetracked, etc)

-live performance (paying attention to the connection between performer and listener)

-recording it, even roughly, and hearing it back (especially after stepping away for awhile and hearing it with fresh ears)

-playing it with a band, which can bring new textures and colors to the original idea

-keeping at a song, combing and combing and combing through it to find the tangles

-refraining from judgment until it gets to be done.

I lead the music at our church, so when I finish a song and I'm happy with it I will introduce it as a new song to our congregation without letting them know that I'm the writer. You can usually get very honest reactions and opinions when people aren't worried about offending you.

Holy sh*t, this thread can still not be going. You've created a monster Derek!

Typically by the time people have heard it, it's finished in my mind. That doen't mean it isn't open to suggestions. I may need to change my process after reading this email. Thanks

DruNK

I play it for a few weeks at solo acoustic shows. If it gets a good response there, then i have my band learn it/write their own parts and we give it a shot at a full, plugged in show. Certain songs go over better unplugged as opposed to full band and vice-versa though so it's hit or miss really. But by the time any audience hears it, it's pretty much done.

First I play it for the family - definitely my most difficult audience as they don't ever sugar coat their comments!

Then I polish it up and start performing the song (or instrumental) in public to see what kind of reaction I get. Sometimes it's quite surprising what goes over best - not always what I expect - and it does vary depending on the audience.

I'm probably my own worst critic and tend to re-arrange my music changing styles, instruments, and keys to see what works best and is most comfortable for me. After a while, certain pieces kind of "float to the top" and become part of my regular repertoire, while others never seem quite complete and eventually slip quietly under the radar.

Derek,

I too sat in on many a songwriter's workshop at Berklee. At the time I was shopping for student songs to record for my MP&E projects. Along the way I found that being a fly on the wall was improving my own sense of what makes a good song as well as my own songwriting skills.

Today I work with 3 other musicians. We work in much the same way as the workshops. Someone presents a song and we all suggest ideas on how to improve the lyric, the melody, the harmonic structure, the delivery. Even after we've performed the song for several months, we go back and see how how to deconstruct it to make it better.

Interesting topic!! Really it is very useful.

While I agree with everyones comments, I just wanted to say that the main thing behind songwriting is speaking either from the heart, or from a personal experience and that's all that really matters.

Writing songs, for me, is solitary work. I work alone and I know when a song is finished. And when it's done, it's done.

At that point anyone who hears it can form their own opinion. I'm not interested in anyone's suggested improvement of the lyrics and melody. I'm not into focus groups. But I'm okay if someone wants to interpret or arrange the song differently. That's the singer's prerogative.

on a personal level i know a song is done when i know it, but that does not stop the song from being in evolution

One test is if the song comes back to me when i am not working on it, i know it has something

My mom is a literary genius and i go to her for feedback

I usually do a 4 track at home then bring it to band rehearsal if I think it's appropriate for our show. I either get honest feedback, an enthusiastic response or silence. If it's feedback for improvement, I re-work it and bring it back. Enthusiastic response, I flesh out the arrangement to add to our set lists. Silence, I throw it in my file drawer for future consideration.

I never bother with seeking feedback for a song fresh off the press. People will often tell you what you want to hear or even worse what you don't want to hear. Somehow it's usually overkill in either direction.

One look at the history of #1 songs should make people who write take a close look at public opinion which put such a forgettable song like "My Ding A Ling" on top of the charts back in the early 1970's. There's been far worse since then. Opinions are just that, an opinion.

I write my song - then re-write it if I must! I Treat it like one who shapes clay into an image and then reshapes it into something better while still in the process of creating the final product.

When finished I listen, listen and listen again and again untill I'm either sick of it or ready to fine-tune.

It may not go to number one but it's something I can be very proud to have my name on.

Derek,
I tend to watch the women in the audience first, then the guys, who tend to be more inhibited. If I see the women start singing the chorus, then I know it works. Writer's nights are great. Friend's are okay but if they are blind in their allegiance their comments have to be viewed as such. A production can be great but like Quincy Jones says, " Before the studio and production comes the lyrics. If they do not work then the song just won't either."

Hi Derek,

Great short article, and so true. It aligns much with my current thinking about how artists need honest feedback to continually improve and maximize their potential. I am forming an organization that helps artists address the problem you write about in this article.

There are two keys, I believe, to make an impact on artists with honest and constructive feedback. We need someone to first provide it with the best intentions, and second, enable artists to hear it completely and openly to consider making changes to their creations.

The latter has more weight. While audiences typically clap their hands, honest feedback can be found. But artists, and knowing this as one myself, do not naturally hear honest feedback constructively, just as many people do not in life.

This is a skill we are working on helping artists build. We will provide a platform for artists and listeners to exchange such feedback. The first step though, is training artists to detach themselves from their songs so they can openly hear this feedback.

We are looking other like-minds to join our organization. Feel free to reach out.

- Daniel

Howdoisound.net

Great blog topic! I have attended small, intimate songwriter groups and this proved somewhat useful. Ultimately, I just write what I like and IF someone else likes it, thats a bonus. Fortunately, this sometimes happens. I guess I don't want to try too hard to please an audience because I want, for myself, to be genuine. Its like dating I guess. For me and my ego, if someone likes my original music, they truly like it rather than liking my concocted attempt to represent something I'm not. My family are all artists and musicians so I've had that ethic ingrained. BTW, nothing at all wrong with commercial success! We all have different goals and paths to getting there.

Your information was help.
Thank you

Siskel and Ebert told you it sucked although you knew the book was great. Would you still go? Some say opinions start from the taint. I found at the Days end ,it's all about the Zen,and only then you're sound satisfies your soul..

Hello,

I used to never play ANYTHING I'd recorded.

Now, i upload to a mp3 hosting site and share the link with certain friends.

After many years I've got to a standard where I know my music is 'technically' ok, but sometimes doesn't always appeal to everyone.

My sister is a well known classical composer so if I ever need her opinion I ask her.

I don't think I'd ever do anything with my music as it's just for fun these days.

All the best.

My name is Rebecca Thermidor I'm 11 going to 12 I started writing songs sense like 3 or 2 years but every time I I'm finished I don't know what to do with it o always throw them away but it's Christian songs my dad is a pastor I don't want to disobey him I want to make him happy so can you please tell me what to do when I'm finish writing a song please please that's my dream I want to follow it. Thank you God bless you

I have written songs on my iPhone notes, I did add
Names of artists that I believe could sings my songs
If my lyrics have been stolen and copyrights claimed
How do I trace my songs as my songs are targeted
For American markets.
Can you please enlighten me on how to go about this.
One of the songs is titled America soldiers.
I hope to get a feedback from you soon.