A free, open song contest idea

I love your mind. Let me know when this is up and running. :)

Fabulous ideas. I'd definitely enter a contest like this one. I never enter any that ask for money, 'cause that's just wrong!

A free song contest.. what a great concept! It seems there are so many "scheme" like contestS that prey on our creative weakness. Of course we want to believe in our own work, but at what price do we have to pay to be validated?

I'm thrilled at the idea. :-)

i would welcome it. I think it would utilize the web for pretty constuctive purpose.

I hate all those contests that cost big bucks to enter. THey all do seem like scams. and I never hear the winners. Hmmm... why is that/

Bring it on Derek. But I would limit the amount of entries per person to one. I know it seems stingy, but then prolific fools like me could pick their best and send it in.


I agree: one song limit per artist. The whole point would be “send us your best song”. — Derek

let's do it!

update us ASAP when this is "live"

I'm a fan. There are always issues with bias in such a thing.

Radiohead's "remix" contest, for example, had people choose which songs to listen to and rate. They also unfortunately displayed songs not sorted by ascending number of ratings, but descending score. This meant that songs that got a few high ratings would continue to gain them (having made it to the front of the list), and songs that got a few low ones would never see any more.

I like your idea to keep artist/title secret until after a rating is given. Comments should probably be required no matter what the final rating, because useful critique is so important. Songs with the least number of ratings could be pushed out the most, at least until a certain threshold is reached.

Could be extremely cool -- keep us informed!

I'd submit a number.

I think it's an awesome idea....I have never entered any of thise contests because of this very reason....except for The Just Plain Folks Contest...funny you mention that one. I would be very interested in seeing this come to fruition! Great Idea!

Derek, your submission has a nice melody and thoughtful lyrics however, I thought you should have gotten to the chorus sooner...oops sorry, I jumped the gun.

Derek!! Don't forget Fame Games! We're doing ALL this and put in on radio everyday! (Don't let our fancy name fool ya! hehehe)

Seriously mate, we were so pleased in our annual Effigy Awards this year -- top people in the industry pleged prizes for our winners and -- have been coming through in a big way. One of the Fame Games acts is on at the Oscars tomorrow night as a result too!

Free, Fun and tons of new music worth sharing.

(btw, loved your video blog from Midem)

Much love,

dj crier

Fame Games Radio

Sound like a way to pass along what your doing at the same time get a pat on the back. Lets do it.

I like it, Derek

I wish you'd start an Indie Radio Station

Keep me posted

Sounds great Derek! I've always been weary of those contests anyway and this is just a really beautiful idea all the way around. I think you have covered all the bases.

I agree with the above person who said 'one song per person'.

Great idea! Count me in. I have won many songwriting contests, actually, and I don't know anybody in the biz, so I have to say that they aren't ALL scams! But the ones that declare that the number of votes for your song is what helps you win -- those I abhor because of ballot stuffing and all that you have mentioned. However, with the double blind technique -- that's perfect! Then everyone would win, because they would get their legitimate number of votes and honest critiques from fellow writers/music lovers. Would you take genre into consideration, by the way? An emo person would NOT be interested in critiquing my children's songs!

Thanks,

Marla

Is the singer on American Idol that gets the most votes the best singer? I would put categories like best lyrics, best arrangement, etc instead of just the most votes is the winner.

Very good idea though.

GREAT IDEA: (categories like best lyrics, best arrangement) — Derek

Derek, this sounds like a great idea.

I know many songwriters, including myself, who are turned off by huge contests that ask for $40 to enter, and usually only pick musicians who already have a billion myspace hits, a promotional team, record deal etc., making one assume that it's less about exposing great songwriter, and just a way for the contest to self promote, by attaching themselves to already big musicians.

Wonderful idea, let me know if I can help in any way!

Cheers,

Matt

Would love it....so overwhelmed by not having the time to be involved

Great in theory, Derek. As you know, the devil is always in the details.. of course you know as soon as this is up and running, someone will try to *somehow* stuff the ballot box -- never fails, right?

Worth a try, if you're willing to work on it... let me know if you need help! Best, Mitch

yes! its a brilliand idea, i m in!!!

No ballot-stuffing!? What crap! No I'm kidding. This is a refreshing. I really like the idea of it being double-blind anonymous. I am so into this idea that I'm ready to upload songs now! I would only say that it would need more non-artists to critique because artists see things from a very different point of view. Most times more educated and more in depth critiques where as the listeners/non-artist only hear things for how they make them feel on impulse.

JUST LOVED IT! DO IT! WE ARE IN!

Hey Derek

I completely agree!! It is important to have contests that are free to the artist, after all the songs are being used by organizations to earn sponsorships etc. they should be paying us???!!!??!??!?!

I also believe sonicbids is notorious for this type of exploitation:)

Even though I don't want to be negative.....it's true!!!

From the start you have always tried to find the win-win situation in your business models. You also try hard to base things on reality, giving real life perspective with whatever comments you make.

I appreciate your decency and how much you consider others in your business and I think this is a fantastic idea that would help motivate people to create from whatever that source is inside of all of us that yearns to be tapped. When we share those things, however raw or unpolished, there is always the chance that good will come of it. I hope sincerely that this works and appreciate how much time you spend trying to make the most of creativity and sharing it and its gifts with the world.

Yes please! Anything that encourages more people to listen to my hard work can only be a good thing!

Though it might be difficult for us artists to choose just one "best" song :)

Hi Derek,

It really sounds like a win win deal. Please let us know the "when and how" as soon as you put this together.

Another great brain storm my friend.

It would be a breath of fresh air to have folks vote on the music on its own merrit.

Excellent idea.

Barry & Teena

I'd love to help set this up &/or enter too!

Keep the good ideas flowing!

As always, Derek you give the world a chance to be a cooler place. Sounds like a great idea, honest and worth doing. I would love to help in any way.

Ray

I agree. I can't tell you how many songwriters I have known who

paid to enter their songs only to not have nothing good happen to their material, but also to later hear a song incredibly similar to their song and get no credit or royalties. I think Just Plain Folks approach is terrific.

Per usual, you took a culturally relevant, factually supported theory("The Wisdom of Crowds") and modeled it to our industry in a way that feeds the art while remaining financially viable(even profitable?). Well done. My only criticism is that it makes too much sense....and crowds tend to ignore rationality.

I think it's a great idea! My only concern is whether or not regular people have the time and motivation to listen to a bunch of new songs so that they can vote on them... I think there would have to be something in it for the voter. Maybe there could be a points system, and you can only upload 1 song initially, but then earn points by listening to and voting on other people's songs - 1 point per listen and vote, 5 points earns you the right to upload another of your own songs.

Another thought would be that the voting option wouldn't become live until you'd listened to at least 2/3rds of the track.

However, on the flipside...

I won two categories in the Australian Songwriting Awards in 2007 - first competition I'd ever entered, got to play at a fancy awards ceremony, and had an absolute ball. Sure, it hasn't really done a lot to further my career, but I have a couple of cool trophies sitting on top of the piano, and my band and I got to pretend to be rockstars for an evening :)

Cheers

Jared


“there would have to be something in it for the voter”: I totally agree! This is the final part I'm a little stuck on. — Derek

I think it sucks! TOTALLY KIDDING! Can I help? Would love to be a part of something where everyone profits.

My one thought is that you, or your fellow committee of contest rules makers have it require that a special song is written around a particular theme, instead of just digging into our favorites amongst what we already have. Thanks, Raven

GREAT IDEA-LOOOOONG over due!!

Whatever I can do to help, if anything, please let me know.

I love writing songs and listening to NEW, REALLY GOOD TALENT.

THANKS FOR THINKING OUT OF THE

"GREED" BOX...... or R U? (:

Good idea...and to capitalize on frequency of opportunity...contest could be quarterly instead of annual? Anyway--neat idea.

Great Idea. sounds fair, simple and attractive.

Sounds a bit like songfight.org - I suspect there already exist other similar places. Still a good idea though if done well. Probably difficult to enforce the 'reason for negative vote' thing in practise - you'd end up with lots of one-word negative reviews which might be worse than not enforcing it.


Thanks for the link to SongFight! I had never heard of it. Anyone else used it? http://www.songfight.org/faq.html — Derek

I have to say I'm not a fan of song contests at all because what really determines one song from being a "winner" over another. I kind of feel like the concept in general implies competition. The merits of a good tune lie in the listener and I think its cool if you are into everything from Minor Threat to The Cheetah Girls...They are all just art for different tastes. I feel the same way about musicians...It's not about ability but rather what is being said...It's all art and whether I personally like it or not, it is all good!

I have been a judge at many contest & no matter how fair & impartial you try to be, there is always a few that become upset because they believe all contests are biased toward one artist or another.

I think you ideas are are very good start & can be adjusted if needed.

One question I always asked is this:

"So, you really like the song, because you voted for it.... will you buy it?"

For me, this question cements the voter's opinion to sincere reality.

Yesssssss, it seem logic, but U must separate songs by genres so everyone get to judge tunes by pop, R&b, reggae and so on. And besides that any songwriter who can submit music in different styles can do so. U got my bless !.

Fabulous idea...Itseems as though you more in favor of promoting the songwriter's and artist alike than with just making money. You will provide us with valuable corrective criticism which serves to make us better in and at our craft. I'm beside you, let's do this.

I got a couple of songs I need to submit!

I promised myself to never enter another songwriting competition. But I would make an exception for one like this. Please do it!

Great idea, mostly I guess I'm curious how (or if) you would separate genres of music? It seems to me that you'd want to have a few different competitions; e.g. one for indie rock, one for metal, one for pop, one for a techno/house, one for dnb/dubstep, etc... because otherwise it seems like the minority genres get a much smaller chance of exposure, where specializing would allow the reviewers to pick from a genre they're already familiar with.

mp3unsigned.com might be a good partner for something like this. As Dandee mentioned, there may be too many entries to vote on, although doing categories might ease this a bit. mp3unsigned.com already has the infrastructure and categories and all that set up and may be able to host this.

Randy

It's only the anonymous factor that gives me pause because I would want people to know who I am as soon as they listen. I don't trust that the people who go and vote are going to check back in later to find out who they listened to.

I don't think posting it anonymously will prevent favoritism or ballot stuffing because a) when you like an artist you can pick their sound out of a line-up easily, and b) the artists will tell their people the name of their song or how to find it and vote anyway.

Other than that it seems like a great idea. I like the feedback the most, though I think people who like a song should say why too.

Song contests should always be free and I think your accurate with thinking it takes few elements to run it. This bullshit about the

Money submitted for admin costs is just a scam and I have never been a vicitim of such nonsense. Beware of promoters on sonicbids.com as well. There are some honest and fair opps, but most of them are set up to line the promoters pockets and have ultimately ore-selected the winners.

I think it's a fantastic idea. Maybe a group of like-minded individuals could co-fund it instead of the financial burden resting on one set of shoulders (granted yours are seemingly quite broad). I also agree with Robert Jacobs - I would definitely limit the number of entries, not necessarily to only 1 but maybe 1 per genre or something (assuming you have different genre categories).

Peace.

Derek,

I think this is a great idea! Please let me know what you decide.

I think it would be a great contest for songwriter's and I know for me as a songwriter, it would be an encouragement. May God Bless!

Great idea! We (Soki2u, an international ensemble which has won awards and had several Number 1 tracks on alternative or dance charts in UK and Japan) have entered song contests and I have to say, been fleeced horribly - one of the most disappointing sites in that regard (in my personal opinion only), is TAXI. I say so because they rejected about 17 submissions which were accepted by sites such as SONICBIDS (which I highly recommend) and two of which, were at the top of different charts for almost 5 months each!

Man,

it's nice to have you on ''our'' side!

How about just automatically,

submit the most played song from each

c.d. Baby artist? Since some of us have very few ''fans'', it would make it even, and give exposure to the ''little guys'',

who are embarrassed to even submit a song in a contest!

Whatever you decide,

it can only help!

L A M M Y

Hi Derek.

I've been hoping to see something like this. There is such a plethora of exploitation in the "Songwriting Contest" world. To me, the very word "Contest" excludes an entry fee. Maybe the John Lennon and others like it should start calling their events "Songwriting Raffles." I have no proof, but I'm always suspicious that the winners have been chosen long before the entries ever start coming in. Am I paranoid? Maybe. But I know human nature, and I know how greed works. It's just unfortunate that so many songwriters have been duped by these organizations. I have never paid an entry fee for a songwriting or playwriting contest, and I never will. I wish more writers would hold to that principle, and eventually these shams would shut down. I am also a crusader against companies like TAXI. I understand their position, and I understand that they are just trying to make money like the rest of us, but something about their methods stinks. Gary Garrison is a columnist for the Dramatists Guild, and he is very much opposed to entry fees as well. He wrote a great article about his feelings on the subject, and he might actually be someone you might think about contacting for some more ideas, and perhaps collaboration on the event. Here is an excerpt from a recent statement by Gary:

As of today, the Guild will no longer publicize calls for

submissions that have a fee attached unless that fee is transparent (where does the money go and to whom) in the description to the reader. The subtext: it is not okay to charge a dramatist a fee to supplement a theatre or producer’s production opportunity. YOUR ART IS FEE ENOUGH!

I know all the arguments of why some theatres and producers

position that they must charge fees: “We couldn’t afford to produce the event if we didn’t charge a fee. We have to hire readers. We have to publicize the event. We have to pay the actors and directors. We have to offer prize money . . .” I understand that, but theatres and producers are doing that on the backs of people that are more poor than they are! What?! On average, dramatists spend ten dollars to submit a play or musical anywhere in this country: printing, copying, postage, return postage, binders, envelopes. If a theatre or producer tacks on an additional $10, $15 or $30 fee, one submission now costs anywhere from $20-50, with no guarantees that anything will come of it. And yes, I know: there are no guarantees for anyone in the theatre. But all too often this feels like, “we’re not going to guarantee you anything, AND we’re going to charge you for the privilege of that, AND you’ll probably never hear from us, AND don’t expect any kind of critical reaction to your material, AND don’t expect notification of who, in fact, was chosen.”

And if it’s not a money issue then it’s a spirit issue: it’s demeaning enough to submit your work to theatres and producers that you never hear from. To pay someone for their silence is too much to ask anyone. . .we will no longer list an opportunity that requires you pay a fee to be considered for inclusion.

Enough is enough.

Gary Garrison, DG

So, there's part of my two cents worth. I'd really like to see this happen, and thanks for your ideas!

Sincerely,

Your Biggest Fan in Tennessee (and not the least bit obsequious),

John thomas Oaks

Sort of loosely reminiscent of garageband.com, no?

sounds like a great idea. i always have stayed away from song writing contests for all the reasons you mentioned. this is one i would participate in.

Derek -- It sounds like a good idea in theory, but it also sounds very similar to garageband.com. You must be familiar with that site? One problem I have with garageband.com, and I'm not sure how you would avoid the same problem, is:

They let you categorize your song into a genre, but the people who judge the songs are coming from all kinds of genres, so the winners in each genre tend to be the most generic sounding songs, the lowest-common denominator. In real life, we do have mass-appeal pop music, but we also have music that arises within it's own niche. Computerized voting systems tend to eliminate that possibility.

not so much a contest... but this post reminded me of http://fawm.org/

"February Album Writing Month". it's a great way to get working, get some feedback, and hear a lot of new tunes. and i think that the songs are all written in one month is a fun angle.

maybe something like FAWM meets a songwriting contest - creating a similar month long event, with the feature to vote for your faves.

then there's the element of the contest, as well as the inspiring practice of write write writing!

The idea of competitive music has always bothered me a little bit. But, the event you describe does a lot of things. It helps distribute and promote music without hitting the artists pocket, provides a way to get get (hopefully) costructive criticism and might put some products in the hands of folks who couldn't afford them , normally.

someone else said, that it might get out of hand, just in the number of songs to listen to. As much as I hate categories, you could provide some different categories to submit in.

Willy Evans

1. How about making the software freely available as a plug in app, so that communities can run their own media contests?

Derek, I applaud you for all you do! I think you're just a great guy and would really like to meet you some day.

This is a great idea and needs to be done. Maybe all the advertisers could pay a bit for that privilege, adding to a cash prize/s as one of the prize options (that's what I would want).

The model of this contest could be used for other things as well. This whole idea could be a new Grammy-type thing, but way more fair and accurate.

I agree with the suggestion to add in a performance component. Perhaps a showcase featuring the top (whatever number makes sense) winners. Could be a stand alone event or tied into an existing event.

Another perk could be a compilation record that is availability for sale, but also promoted / pitched for use in tv / film or otherwise. With artist keeping the rights of course, but sharing proceeds.

I like the idea alot. Im tired of the internet sites like Sonic Bids and garage band thaat are in it only for the money. A good musician and fan based contest would be great. I dont see any downside to your idea. thank you.

Great idea. Once again you are there for the average Cat who doesn't have the dough or connections to break into the scene. Count me in.

JG

I would enter for sure.

I'm all for it.

As long as the winner isn't the usual "American Idol", mass market, A.M. Radio stuff that usually wins.

Just because the majority of people might buy something doesn't necessarily mean it's the best song.

This would mean a panel of judges from all walks of music who are willing to listen to anything from heavy metal, to techno, to trance, orchestral, easy listening... you name it.

It should not only be based on the song but the performance, production, mixing and mastering quality as well.

Judging a contest based on listener votes is just as bad as judging a live band based on audience applause. The band with the most friends in the audience usually wins.

For instance, if a contest can be won by somebody who puts tons of time and effort into promotion rather than putting out a a great quality, well written song.. it's not fair to people who just submit their song and hope that it will speak for itself.

In a case like that, it's not the song that won, but the amount of votes they got.

I think any idea to promote the 'arts' is a good idea! That funding would come from private sector such as companies involved in producing musical equipment etc is good. 1)Category or song genre/type is important 2) one entry per artist is good 3) Who are the judges-crucial! 4) Give top 10 winners a chance to tour or something special. Overall, great idea!!!!

I like the idea, but there is a site similar to this already. It's Ourstage.com, which I am a member of. It's really great but there has been a few glitches along the way. Maybe the person doing this (you?) could learn from their mistakes and make one even better. And a question you might want to answer is - will "production quality" be judged as well. If so a lot of talented artists would not be able to participate.


Thanks for the link. I haven't checked out http://www.ourstage.com/home - Anyone else here used them? — Derek

Love the idea. Some logistics to think of. 1. the voter base will have diverse tastes in music, perhaps each voter should decide which category or style of music they would like to listen to and vote on. 2. With free entry, it may turn out that thousands of bands submit songs. Where the contest is marketed and to what size 'crowd' is key. To have an accurate assessment of the true winners, the voter base will have to be huge! Is this possible? 3. I figure your average voter/music lover is good for rating 2-3 songs per day. How will the system determine which songs they will hear? at random? or should the frontrunners after some period of time be selected and automatically moved forward into successive heats of voting? These are just ideas. I hope I was clear enough.

J

Great idea! It's funny, I've been complaining about these scammy song contest for awhile now but never thought of setting up a musician friendly one myself. Well done Dereck, I think you've covered the all essentials in the few minutes you've been thinking about the idea. This is definitely the best way to overthrow the scam artists out there that try to suck the life out of independent musicians.

I think its a great idea man. Even sites like Garageband.com can be flawed. It sounds like you've covered everything.

Great idea! Let me know when you've got it up and running so we can all submit some great music! :-) You're the best, Derek!

Great idea! Getting sponsors would be cool, both to help defray bandwidth costs and maybe offer prizes to the winners...of course they should have no say in anything, but want to be included for 'advertising' purposes. Of course if someone wants to foot the bill, the sponsors wouldn't necessarily be needed!

Good idea, personally, I never trust the so called "competitions" ... they offer, give write describe everything soooo beautiful...makes me always think. I find your idea very good, encourage musicians to apply. thanks

Fantastic idea!

esp.

- the double blind aspect,

- and the artists can choose their prize.

An intelligent and appropriate method of categorization would be one of the challenges.

Hi Derek,

I like the whole idea! I like the idea of double-blind anonymous voting as I see bands win contests b/c of ballot stuffing, and many musicians put way too much time and money into contests with no return. I like this because it puts the focus onto music appreciation.

An important aspect of this is to what end are you proposing it? To help good songwriters feel good b/c they won a contest? To help somewhat established musicians grow their fan bases? I personally fall in the area of wanting to help somewhat established musicians grow their fan bases, and make a go at a career. The prizes are cool too, but there are many musicians out there for whom the exposure could be the greatest prize.

I suggest you create some minimum requirements for musicians to enter that are related to building a music career. This would also dovetail nicely with MuckWork. Requirements could be: musician website; presence on the main social media and webstreaming sites (create a list); fan base of X number of fans demonstrated by combining lists of MySpace, iLike, Facebook, email list (this could be difficult to make concrete, but it's super important to find a way); music able to be purchased online at X retailer; musician has toured at least X times outside their region; shows draw at least X people; and any other activities essential to a music career. With this as the focus it would become educational as well.

However if your focus is just on songwriting, it's a different story. If it were me I'd build the whole thing based on helping musicians who are working hard for a career and have taken some of the steps to do so. I'm curious to hear what folks have to say about this approach.

Best,

Spencer




“to what end are you proposing it?” : I figure everyone will have their own different goals. In other words: it's up to them, not me. Some will just want feedback on a song they wrote, to see if it's good. Some will use it as a tool to grow their fan base. The song contest thing itself could just be what it is: a platform to help make it happen, whatever "it" is. — Derek

I like this. I never enter the commercial contests, because it feels wrong. I do agree with the idea that some way of keeping the number of submissions low enough so that everything can be heard would be good. Maybe a series of contests, leading to a final. Overall I'm ambivalent about contests over art, it's not a zero sum game after all, but this seems like the least unfair way to do it.

I have a problem with all song writing contests.

As a musician, producer and songwriter, I have participated in many over the years, both as an entrant (I've won some, lost more) and as a judge.

The thing that bugs me is this: as a music lover, I've noticed that many of the songs I cherish the most, I did not like on the first listen.

This is because these truly great songs challenged the way I listened to music, exposing me to new and unfamiliar concepts and ways of using music and lyrics.

Conversely, other songs that may have impressed me at first, seem shallow after repeated listening.

To me, it is this ability to reveal new insights after multiple plays that makes a song great.

Songwriting contests, basing all judgment on a single listen, do nothing to test the shelf life of the work.

my 2c,

John Reynolds

The Dead Beetles

Portland, OR

Honestly, If people would actually buy a song here and there instead of finding out how they can get a free version, or download it illegally, or just listen to it through myspace over and over for free, I think more artists would benefit if the listeners would support the dollar a song or just give back to the artist what they painstakingly produce for peanuts, it would help. At this point, the pleasure from making music is it's own reward. I entered a song last year in some songwriting contest and couldn't believe the crap that won. So of course, nothing from nothing is nothing. Anything helps.

Another great idea! I once entered a song contest with a mega, fully notated, arranged, epic composition (more like an art song) and was later dumbfounded to find out that one of the JUDGES of songwriting was... (get this) Puff Daddy? aka P. Diddy???

WTH!!!

For the love of all things if someone wants me to pay money to have my composition judged, can you at least get a COMPOSER (like John Williams, or Alan Silvestri or???) to judge it? Geez!

:)

Hi Derek

great idea !

I'd have two suggestions....which you've probably thought about already. 1. Is there a way to assure that each person only votes once?

2. Seperate music into genre.

If it goes, I'm in.

Thanks for keepin up the great thinking.

darryl

Awesome idea! Totally agree, this is an excellent way to get good songs out to the public. Some people have great songs and don't want to enter the typical contests b/c of the fees. This contest would definitely have to be broken down into specific genres/categories and have a one song submission limit to work properly. Sounds exciting!

Being in the music field is competitive enough. We all know how difficult it can be. I think the whole contest-mania is way out of hand these days. Maybe it's the influence of American Idol.

Whatever happened to just working on one's craft and doing what needs to be done on the business side? I get tired of all the "Vote for me" solicitations I receive.

Do you REALLY win anything all that worthwhile in most of these scam/shams?

Hi Derek,

I think this is a great Idea. Go ahead setting it up.

Thanks,

John Damberg

Fantastic idea. If I can be of help don't hesitate to call or email

Sincerely,

Jim Bruce

Spotlight Records

Derek- fabulous idea! I love the grass-roots elements that your idea is based on: a benefit to everyone involved capitalizing on people's talants rather than capital.

Two thoughts:

-My concern regarding "feedback". I hate to even go there but some people can say very hurtful things just for the sake of being hurtful. (Check out any news artcle printed online and the comments underneath the story.) Sometimes people consider the anonymity of the internet a perfect sheild to hide behind providing the protection necessary for saying hurtful things. My concern is that songwriters putting their "best song" out there would be subject to written judgement that is not constructive and/or valid and therefore potentially hurtful. Any thoughts on this, "cyber-bullying" as it were?

-In regards to a comment left by Dandee stating that there would be too many entries to listen to all of them. Good point, Dandee but this can perhaps be avoided by a few ideas: categorize songs into genre, have a short entry period, choose the most popular songs per category and then vote on those.

Anyway, rock on all!

I'm really impressed, you have the right and best idea right there, for every songwriters benefit.

Seriously you got it.

Thank you so much for giving us this opportunity to compete freely.

I think this idea is really exciting...wonderful showcase for

new and favorite songs of an artist. I am looking forward to it.

that's an awesome idea, i like it!

A must do!! Count me in...I am ready to go!!

In OUR world of creativity we have singers that can't write and writers that can't sing.

"just a thought"

Myself - I would probably be up for it.

Thanks for hangin' with us in a biz that's wonderfully tough!

Phil McGarrah

&

Runnin' on Empty

How cool is that? I would enter for sure along with 10 thousand more, there in lies the problem too much to listen to. maybe set it up as a stream like pandora. thumbs up thumbs down. the cream would rise to the top

the bigger question I feel compelled to ask is, why the desire to make a contest out of songwriting at all? competing in the realm of songwriting feels wrong to me. How are the Nobel and Pulitzer prizes dished out each year? Didn't Mr. Dylan, our fearless leader, receive one or the other last year? Would the prize have been cheapened somehow if we knew that Bob had been home sending in his best songs to the Nobel people over the internet? Maybe he did, for all I know....any comments???? love, cy



“why the desire to make a contest out of songwriting at all?” - I get your point, and if songwriting contests did not exist, I would never make one. This was just a brainstorm on how to make them free, since they seem to exist anyway. — Derek

Fully support this idea. I know which song I'd send in.. let me know when you start and you can count on me

Hey Derek- A good song is a good song, period... With no preferential treatment as a barrier, everyone would have the same chance to win. I think it would be great if (also) there were no genres of music represented; just one great song picked, end of story. That way my "kids music" might actually compete with the bigger genres of music like rock, hip hop and Country. Let's do it!

Great idea! The winning songs would be chosen by a lot other musicians and not by just a few judges.

Bring it on!

James Surowiecki has something there, I think. The Bible says there is wisdom in the counsel of many...same thought...that the majority thought of many people are probably more "right" than an elite group, even one that is exclusive to the subject matter. The only complaint I ever have when managing Brett Mitchell's promotion is having to make a new site and then hounding and hounding his fans to go to this site and vote, now go to this site and vote, now add your email, vote once a day, vote all you can... I want them to go to Brett's sites!!! So...my suggestion is instead of making me create a new site for your contest, such as I've had to do with FameCast,Playmayercraft, OurStage, MTVU, Facebook, American Songspace, MySpace, LocalMusicLife, IndieMusic...let us use one of our own sites for our page on YOUR contest or you come to us - maybe by widget. It's just a thought. I'm not against contests and I'm surely not against prizes and, even more, I am not against promotion for Brett Mitchell and his band, the giant GHOST. Come on, Derek, keep inspiring me.

Excellent thought Derek. As two-time winners in the Billboard contest I can vouch for little payback beyond bragging rights, which are helpful in marketing but do little to actually license a song or promote sales. The only concern I'd have is that an (initially) unknown name contest wouldn't take a song far either in recognition terms or with powerful libraries; But if the quality remained high and the process was respectable then a few years could turn an unknown competition into a well-known and sought-after commodity for vetting good material. How can we help make this happen?

Wild. Random access to the songs with a maximum of one listen per song might be the best way to safely keep it free and open to all contestants and voters. I'd be interested in participating as a "contestant" and a voter if both ends were free and random. It gets quite interesting.

This is just what I've been thinking for a while, Derek. So I say yes, this is exactly what needs to happen--and I would add that you are the most likely person to make this happen in a way that maintains integrity and credibility.

Carry on!

Maggie

It sounds like a very cool idea,Derek! Ensure you include genres, such as jazz, instrumental jazz, classical compositions,etc as well as songs. But I'm in if you do it!

L,Greg

I think it is a great idea. I wonder if it might make more sense to have some regional contests instead of going global from the outset. Regional contests = people learn about music that is close and accessible to them. Maybe a final round could take the top winners of all the regional contests and put them in for a bigger grand prize. Just a thought. I like the idea.

I feel competition in the arts is like competition in the wilderness. It's foolish. Einstein once wrote everyone is a genius but is it fair to judge a fish on it's ability to climb a tree?

Most song contests come down to 2 elements.

1.Ballot box stuffing

or

2. Judges deciding what is cool at that time.

It use to be, a song was judged by record sales, but in many cases, the industry pumped as much money into promoting the song as the people did buying the song.

I feel, a well written song reflects on the artist's talent as a writer. Contests are poor vehicles for getting the song exposure.

I could go on but what's the point.

There's an old saying. Never enter a battle of the bands. If you do; you've already lost.

Personally, I don't like Picassos. Don't like Bruce Springsteen nor do I like all of Dylan's material.

Doesn't mean it's not great. Doesn't mean it is.

Cheers,

Ace

I saw someone mention that non-artists should be the judges. That's a very interesting idea, since presumably there are more of them than there are of us artists. Artists (myself included)tend to be elitist about the music they listen to, so it would be interesting to get regular humans to rate the songs. How would you get that to happen?



Make the site a fun and rewarding place for music fans to check out new music? — Derek

yes it's a great idea. I've always found those contests to be kind of a scam so yeah.

i would have to agree also with Courtney, comment # 37 that songwriting as a competition is slightly a subjective thing. b/c what is one person's idea of a great song is another person's idea of ka ka.

So yeah, you have different genres and that helps, but your approach is definitely more "of the people" fo sho.

I'd be into doing it.

Great Idea!!! I've lost a few contest because of favoritism including the IMWS. You should do it!

Hate to rain on your parade, but only the public can make a song a hit song and their vote is the almighty dollar..Get a song exposed to the general public and then it will or will not be a hit.

I love the idea of this type of songwriting competition if it is, in fact, a true SONGWRITING competition. Or would it become what most songwriting competitions are, and that is a RECORDING competition. The unfortunate thing about many of these contests is that the “judges” often rely more on the quality and interpretation of the work rather than the song itself.

They focus on whether or not they like the singer’s voice. Did they like the choice of instrumentation? Was it recorded in a professional studio with excellent sound quality or was it recorded in the songwriters basement on an antique reel to reel tape player. How many times have you heard entertainers butcher an incredible song when they did a cover of it. Does that make the songwriting bad? No. But it does make the recording un-listenable and incapable of winning any competition.

None of these issues should matter at all. The only thing a songwriting competition should be about is the songwriting. Is the general public capable of seeing past the surface of a recorded song and judging a song based on it potential. I doubt that very much.

Think for a second what would happen if for example someone who was completely unknown wrote what was potentially the greatest song ever. Say a song that was equal in songwriting technique to John Lennon’s “Imagine” or some other million seller.

Then assume the songwriter who happened to be not a very good singer or musician tried to do his best to get this song recorded so others could hear it. Now what if the quality of his recording was down right disastrous? Most people with their limited attention span would probably ignore it after a few bars. And the result is one of the greatest songs ever written would potentially go undiscovered forever.

I love the idea of a songwriting competition that is not controlled by people with an agenda but I would want to make sure that it was not about the recording, the arrangement and so on, but about the melody and the lyrics. That is what a true songwriting competition should be about. Not too many people has that kind of incite.

I have been a member of JPF for years and have known Brian since the beginning.

He has it right and you are right to bring this up.

It is becoming such a big business now. I must get 2 or 3 a day from places wanting me to sign up for a new song contest - Fill in entry free here $_______

You are RIGHT ON!!

I love this idea Derek! I can't even count how many times I've wanted feedback on a song, but didn't want to pay the submission fee to enter a contest. Being able to choose your own prize makes it even better! I would also only allow one vote per an IP address to make sure that the judging is fair and the winner is clearly the winner because of their great song and not because someone sat at their computer all day long voting for themselves or their friend. Great idea, I would love to see it materialize! If you need any help or simply some more feedback, let me know!

I think it's a good idea and people have brought up some god caveats.

I think the prize end of this would be more appealing to companies if you not only gave each artist a choice as to which prize they wanted, but made them fill out a small form with their reasoning for choosing that product (and then use that marketing data as the proverbial carrot on the stick for the manufacturer). In the end if you can add useful marketing data to the "eyeballs" the companies will be more willing to offer up something good.

I agree with those who said you need to keep the list manageable - maybe set up some broad genre categorizations and then run a 1 month, 20 songs per genre contest. And to be fair, announce the dates for submissions and make the submission process simple, but fair and balanced. That's going to be a tough with the potential of tens of thousands of submissions. If you take just the first 20 or so, you are biasing the submissions to those who wait to hit "submit" at midnight on the start of submissions.

Perhaps making it more of a quarter finals, semi finals & then finals process will allow for a more expansive inclusion process. That is, the top 10 go to to the quarter finals, then the top 5 go to the semis and the top 3 go to the finals. That gives more opportunity for the songs to be scrutinized and allows for a staggered start for the next round..and the next round...ad infinitum.

That could help with the submission issue. You could limit concurrent entries, e.g. a songwriter may only submit a song every 4th round (which would equate to once a month if each of the above rounds ran 1 week).

Many possibilities here - but then I ask myself...wouldn't an online song-swap/song circle be an even better idea. Instead of pitting one song against another, create a friendly place where songwriters can pitch their latest work and get helpful insights (I hate the word criticism)...

...Or - make the song-swap the submission interface. Or maybe not...as I think about that I don't like that idea (thinking out loud here).

Maybe the song-swap is an add-on to the contest for those who want to hone their writing before submitting, or resubmitting. Or the contest is the add-on to the songwriter's community that surrounds the song-swap.

So many ideas dancing around in my cranium right now. But, yes - very cool idea...I just think there's more to it than just a song contest.

Good idea in theory -

In practice, the considerations become:

(a) so many entries that one cannot really hear them all, thus one never knows if they've heard the 'best'.

(b) what's to stop a person with 1,000 relatives to have them vote 10 times each for their mediocre song, as opposed to the great song from a great writer with no friends. Double-blind does not prevent the contestants from telling their thousands of MySpace friends to go vote for their specific song (i.e. it will have to identified by some title or ID# that can be found).

(c) "The Wisdom of Crowds" not withstanding, open voting means that the song is NOT being evaluated on its merits as a well-written or not well-written song. It's being evaluated on subjective tastes which studies show are most influenced by vocal performance and stylistic production. Those are quite independent of the quality of the songwriting. (the same song well performed vs. not well performed will would fare quite differently, thus, it is not the SONG being evaluated). The Wisdom of Crowds might identify the best performance and production, but not necessarily the best

crafted SONG.

(d) Songwriters might be mislead into believing that their song fares well or poorly because of the way it's written as opposed to the way it is performed/produced. The Wisdom of Crowds can accurately determine what is "liked" but not necessarily what is "good" (just look at the current economy as an example -- everyone 'likes' credit and 'things', but look where it got us)

Calling something a 'song' contest blurs the distinction between the craft of songwriting and the related but distinctly different crafts of performance and production.

That said, if this were honestly advertised for what it would be, i.e. an online 'song popularity contest', and not try to come across as a 'songwriting' contest, then people can choose to enter it with their eyes wide open.

This is exactly how it should be done. No objective contest like this exists - it's always either a popularity contest or just a scam. Thank you for thinking of this. Please let me know if I can help - I do have a web development company with programming and graphic design resources.

Rather than making it a contest, how about using the same ideas (double blind, listeners review and comment) and make it a continual submission/listen/critique site. All I really want is some constructive criticism of my songs from unbiased people. Isn't the prize in the writing and recording itself?

Again, thanks for thinking. I haven't entered a contest for some time because I don't think the odds are very good just because of the numbers. And then on top of that you have to pay. Seems like money down the drain. I think the usual problem is that there are so many entries. So, as some have said if there was a way to keep it smaller like so many per month with a chance to win and then a final annual winner might be good. The whole point of me entering is to have a pro tell me what's good or bad about my writing and the exposure. When you open it up to the world it becomes out of my reach. I do love your creative thinking,however. Thanks for that.

Great idea Derek! OurStage does something like this now, but theirs means you have to signup and have a profile...

Your idea seems to suggest a simple website without a lot of clutter. Maybe it could have a Paypal Donate link to help pay the administrators.

I think your right DS. Making a free contest happen seems way more supportive to musicians. I think a free contest has the potential to put others to shame if done properly.

Hi Derek,in my small town Nelson BC, Canada..we have many fundraisers.Government funding cutbacks threatened the closing of our Woman's Center,and a (songwriting contest/performance) poster went up around town to help save the center. Never before had I felt the desire to enter a songwriting contest.. songs to me are an offering. I picked up my guitar and thought that if a song came through I would enter...I wrote one of my most intimate songs that winter eve(cold cold girl)...sometimes self promotion feels like entering a contest too.. I am so grateful to souls like your self..many blessings, Pauline

Sounds great. Maybe artists could select the genre of their song, and then voters could select which genre they want to vote on. That would pare it down some. For instance, I'm not a fan of most rap, so I'd probably vote those down by default. I'd be much more discerning with solo piano.

I love the idea! Count me in!

Greg Nicholson

As another person noted, your contest idea is reminiscent of garageband.com with winner-chosen prizes. It sounds good to me, though, as I welcome any opportunity for exposure.

Like some others, I wonder about the practical aspects of voting. Say you open for submissions and get 10,000 entries. What mechanism would you use to ensure equitable and timely voting for all entries? The JPF contest has an enormous number of people screening submissions, and it takes them months to get through everything.... Still, if you can devise a way to handle massive numbers of songs and voters, I'll be happy to enter!

Fred

Love it!! Love the way your mind works...Gina

Yep! Good idea. It also seems like Pandora might think about opening a song contest channel to run along side this.

Hello Derek,

Could not agree more that most song-writing comps are a scam (and a sham!). In principle your idea is a good one. In practice there would be an over-load of entrants and any "judge" would not have the time or patience to listen to all of the songs.

i like the idea - it strikes me as coming from the heart and being very honest intentions. which i think also will appeal to a lot of independent songwriters like me. what i wonder is, how putting your work here might leave it open to piracy, not in the sense of someone downloading your mp3, but in the sense of producers or other artists stealing your ideas? any thoughts?

Hmm, my first thought is that this kind of thing exists already on a variety of different platforms. Not necessarily with prizes, but on a free, upload and be judged by listeners basis - GarageBand, anyone? It's a pretty established process, anonymous and feedback based like you mentioned. There's also ReverbNation, and all kinds of others.

I find the biggest problem (and this goes for all things internet right now) is that there's too many, so people's attention is too spread out to focus on one. Similar to the way there's so many digital distributors - but iTunes has pretty much risen to the top of that pile. CD Baby seems to lead the pack on indie CD sales on line, but things like social networking and contests and promotions are all so varied and numerous that it's tough to keep up to date with all the sites you need to maintain!

Sorry, I went on a bit of a rant there, but starting the thought process is good...

free to enter, and annonymous? how would you do that? just a cash prize or studio time w current hit producer, funded by brand promotion.

Hmmmm. Not sure I buy the premise of the infallible wisdom of the masses. Sometimes that parlays into the lowest common denominator. There are many factors that go into why somebody likes a particular song. Could be production value, the singer, etc. The trick is to find some kind of level playing field. A song, by legal definition, is melody and lyric, and that's all it should be judged on. If you're involved, I'm sure it will be a good thing...

Perfect Simple Logic.

Totally Agree With That Mate!

Yes, this sounds like a good idea. Having no entry fee, or a small, reasonable entry fee would certainly help out those of us really struggling to turn some kind of profit.

I'm also a science fiction autor and I enter certain inexpensive writing contests, for example, the Writer's Weekly contest that only costs $5.00, because that price is something I can manage and would be willing to pay to enter into a music contest. I simply cannot afford $50.00 entry fees.

I even like the idea of preventing ballot stuffing. This is truely an annoyance at best with so many other contests.

Will the contest allow for instrumental pieces? I don't do vocals. :) But, I feel my music is every bit as good as traditional songs with words. I would be willing to enter an instrumental piece if conditions permit.

Yes Derek, I also think it's a brilliant idea, just the way you stated it.

But realize that it can only be fulfilling to the contestants if you work out a way to judge all the entries. As some one else stated, there could be a hundred thousand enteries and some, (and maybe the very best, won't get heard), this would be disapointing to a very good song writter's best effort.

How about after the deadline for submission, the contest doesn't stop untill each song gets 10 reviews,documented and sent to the song writter.

And the reviewers are qualified by industry experience, (proffesional, unrecognized artist, and novice). With each reviewer recieving a perk for puting out their time spent.

Each song gets 3 pro reviews, 4 unrecognized artist reviews, and 3 novice reviews.

the top 100 go through the same process a second time.

The top ten get the same process, to get a grand winner.

And if there are 50 prizes all the better.

I like that you can specify what prize you would like. And that there doesn't have to be a grand prize, just the satisfaction, and media notoriety that goes with it,.....Oh maybe some grtand prize, I'd like that if I won.

And your the perfect person to do this. You've shown your true colors over the years. Brilliant !!

awesome way to run a song contest, i would only add one thing. the top 20 songs get heard by industry insiders (a&r, people looking for music for tv and film, etc). i would think these people would want to hear the cream of the crop, let the public do the work for them. so assemble a group of people waiting to hear the best 20 songs, that's what i'd have as the prize. getting heard by the right people is better than gold.

I'll put up a free video ad for the contest on our web video ad site: milliondollarwebtv.com, if your idea comes to fruition.

I can dig it. How would we control how many songs are entered?...maybe so many per genre? There would have to be a cut off... voters can't vote on a thousand songs. Hmmmmm, great idea. Needs some tweakin'

All I can say is, what would WE do without ya ?

Peace - D

it has become a huge business taking advantage of the hopes and dreams of artist. Your idea for a song contest is great.Taking it a little further I would like to see a sight that could help with song licensing, help with airplay, help with legal issues, job placement(guitarist needed)all the things that could help artist be artist. There are few people that can be trusted, Derek your one of the few that CAN be trusted so please do it.... ALL OF IT ANY OF IT. thanks Richy K

Derek,

Super idea. Only likely problem I can foresee is a possible (likely) deluge of entries - there are a lot of us out here! Too many songs, probably many of them of poor recording quality, could crash the contest.

Even a small entry fee (like $5) may help winnow out some of the noise; money could be used to cover costs, and any remaining money go into promoting the costest, to charity, or even be a prize.

Another possible solution: make it a monthly contest, and each month is for a specific genre: Jazz, country, americana, etc.

Hopefully some other innovative folks with think of other solutions that will help keep the contest to a manageable size. Otherwise The selection process will be very random, as few people will be willing to listen to 5,000 songs - or be able to select their favorites!

Thanks for sharing all you ideas, insights, and encouragement.

Great to hear your concepts, Derek..

I like Dandee's idea:(earlier post)

The biggest issue I see is that there would be too many items to listen to and vote for.

You would have to limit the number of entries to something that would be manageable to a common user.

If there are 1000 songs to vote on, and I listen to 5 and vote on those 5, I may never hear my real favorite.

Maybe have it automated and have it set monthly. The first 20 bands to submit each month get in to be voted on.

In Dec the winners from each month go into the “Year” bucket and get voted on again.

Love the idea, count me in!

Derek,

I don't do song contests, but your's sounds better than most.

Now a songwriters contest where you set perimiters, might be interesting, but that's what Taxi and others supply for proffesional out comes (and incomes). Exposure is a wonderful thing, but I don't think the creative Gods like contests either.

Have fun!

This is one of the best ideas I've heard yet. It is so frustrating to have to pay someone to listen to your songs when you almost know the fees are kept and the material is thrown in the trash or if you would just let them redo your songs in their studios your songs would have a better chance of winning. Come on, none of us are that naive. Hope you get this going. Let me know.

Dude......! You have it nailed. I have always thought song contest were a ruse, some way for marketing yahoos to make money off of the hopes and dreams of the unsuspecting artist. I'm not saying they were all shysters, but I'll bet most are and were. They boast a long list of sponsors and industry insider judges and then ask the artist for as much $250.00 to submit a tune. That's crap......

If you are truly serious about looking for the next best thing, the last thing you want to do is limit the playing field. As flawed as American Idol is they have the right idea - you think you have talent let's hear it. 5 or 10 seconds in you know whether it's crap or has potential, 30 seconds later it either fails to develop or you let it play. That's a true contest of judging talent not by who’s check clears or doesn’t.

Thanks Derek...... Count Me In......

Great idea, as usual - from Derek.

But needs some managing, as usual great ideas. In fact - need a manager,the individual who will be entirely devoted to the "thing", and will simply make it happen.

Need also some financing, maybe from European funds (as I reside in Europe, I can see, that despite the "recession" here - there are still quite lot European funds devoted to international art/cultural cooperation...

all the best for everyone,

Hi Derek,

Yes, democracy in Rock'n'Roll. A movement against the Dictators of Pop. Voting for music may partly replace buying it. Another facet to the future shape of sound?

Anyway, it's a good idea in principle. We just joined thepeoplesmusicawards.com Thats a good one too. Do check it (and vote for us of course ;-))

The problem I see with your idea is that it may not be everybody's cup of tea to listen through 100s and 100s of songs to vote for the ones they like. I applaud the fact that you are infinitively positive about musicians and the process of making music. The average punter though only likes a small percentage of music that is out there. So having to go through random selection of songs may be quite annoying.

I wouldn't necessarily get our fans to go on the competition site only to possibly vote for other bands or to spend a long time finding our song. I think we spend too much time in front of screens anyway so that in a way I would prefer to tell our fans to go for a walk or write a postcard to a friend for no reason... (using our promo cards of course)

It's all about making the internet experience interesting and worthwhile...

As a band you don't have a way to promote yourself in this system, which makes it different... possibly a good thing. But also music is actually not only about music. It is about lifestyle which is reflected in band name, image, graphic design. On an experimental level it may be interesting to leave these all important factors out for voting and just focus on music and lyrics.

I do find the idea inspiring because it is taking a different approach. Maybe, when punters go on the site they should be presented with a random choice of say 5 songs which they can vote for or not and then press a button and be presented with another 5 songs etc. Not only should the votes for every song be counted but also the number of listens the songs had. So that the songs with the least numbers of listens will always be prioritised by the randomiser. There shouldn't be charts either, otherwise punters will tend to listen and vote for the same songs. Maybe there could be an internet radio type streaming function that lets you vote for songs or skip songs.

To help make it a enjoyable and useful net-experience there should probably be different genres. Otherwise people will get annoyed about having to listen to styles of music other than what they are into.

And they may judge the style negatively rather than the song.

The good thing about it is that as a band you know what people truly think because you don't really get your friends and family to vote.

The idea is definitely interesting to explore. If I have more thoughts I'll leave another comment.

best

x Capt Future

The Future Shape Of Sound.

I like this idea a lot.

I've submitted to a lot of song contests over the years; it's expensive and rarely worth it.

Not only is it really hard to squeeze my music into one of the little drop-down-menu genres they have, but who knows what kind of music "celebrity judges" like.

I would love to see what real people and musicians think of my songs - "celebrity judges" aren't really a part of my audience and don't buy my CDs...

Derek:

Count me in! Great idea, can't wait for someone to make it happen.

Derek, we are very fortunate to have you out there looking out for us. Don't think for a minute that your efforts aren't appreciated. Keep up the great work. We love you!

Derek,

Do this! You're really firing on all cylinders and then some now! Your take on most sw contests appears correct in my experience. Digressing a bit: I also have watched sites that say they are "by the people for the people" get picked up/promoted/affiliated-in-some-way by some version of a "major" be it network, label, marketing co. etc....and their vibe and business practises change. Big fish licks it's lips...

This is also true of some of the grant process: Once I was asked to adjudicate the very grant I'd been turned down for prior. ?!?!?! Just a change of personnel and voila, the door swings the other way. (I said no thanks btw.)

Ya, do this. It might help alot of people, giving a voice to someone who can't justify the constant financial input that publicists tell us we must invest, just to have another platform to 'get your name out there!'

Bill Pere wrote: (a) so many entries that one cannot really hear them all, thus one never knows if they’ve heard the ‘best’.


If you need extra ears to help sort the Gold from the sawdust....... You have my contact info....

Nice idea Derek! I would just like to add that being one of the Judges on the JPF (current} competition for the (soundtracks and new age) genres, I was amazed at how much incredible talent was out there that I had never heard of. The only downside that i found unfair was the fact that all artists were in it together,i.e. the ones who had "made it" with a ton of awards and acclaims being judged against the "unmade" ones.You definitely could spot the difference in the production, so had to be mainly listening for the song quality and that pure gut feeling;"do i like it for what it is".

The other factor was the judging itself. I had to be very conscious of not listening to too many at once as the effect of one artists sound could effect the next etc. So with that in mind and depending on the number of songs to judge; it would take quite a while!

Great idea!

I think the contest is a great idea! I did want to comment about your opinion of contests as they are now. I agree with you, but I wanted add that I sometimes think TAXI is just as bad in those ways.

Absolutely! I Love it... yeah, always been a fan of DIY, and never bit on the 'pay to play' kind of offers out there. I love the idea! keep me posted!

THE PROBLEM IS EVERYBODY CAN'T SING OR RAP THE FACTS ARE THE FACTS! I LIKE HIP HOP WHEN GUYS WASN'T GETTING MILLION DOLLAR DEALS IT WAS PURE! LISTEN TO JAY ZEE,NOW LISTEN TO JAY Z MOST GUYS DON'T KNOW HE CHANGE HIS NAME! I KNOW A GUY THAT SMASH ON A ARTIST,BECAUSE HIS NEW CD HAD A MOTOWN SOUND PURE I LOVE IT! THAT SAME ARTIST WAS GRANTED A GRAMMY THIS YEAR. GOOD MUSIC IS GOOD MUSIC

GarageBand.com already does that with charts and ratings...not a one-off contest, but ongoing. The only problem I have seen in the last few years of having my music on about 30 websites is that people won't take the time to vote or rate. Even when I give away a download and they download it (cause they liked it - and it was a LEGAL download) they STILL won't comment or vote...not even to select a radio button. It amazes me.

Why not start an online review of indie artist? Online radio station where you can log on to state your thoughts on the song just played. Contact info can be given on the site. DJ can read comments on air. Play every song that comes in. Folks can tune in anytime they want. Give their opinons if they want, or just listen to what's out there. A 24hr streaming guide to new and different stuff (record companies would catch on and listen to hear the latest).

Just an idea.

Derek:

I like your idea. Free gets my attention. I appreciate your mentioning Just Plain Folks contest. It is fair but even it could be better. Because of the logistics involved (judging troops in the trenches) you need to limit song submittals to one song under 5 minutes per genre... no albums.

I would also recommend that you have a serious discussion with mangement at JPF and review the process involved and the difficulty of finding enough judges. Maybe you should consider a pre-screening process but that too, requires judges.

For my part, I recommend finding final judges who are noted for their involvement in the genre being judged... not just what sounds good to any old listener.

(But that's just my thinking.)

Great idea. Please keep us posted.

Dave

A contect by CdBaby would be perfect.

Derek, I have to call you Mr.Amazing,cause there's just no one like you on this planet...doing so much for our cause (the love of music) Yes, what a cool idea. I swore never to spend any monies on those song contests ever again! This could be fun and people could make new friends at the same time. What would be cool is the top 12 winners could put on a concert/show/talent show/ and sell the tickets at a reasonable price to cover expenses and food, after all we got to EAT! Thanks for brainstorm....admirably yours,Sammy

Yes!! ... as usual you are proving to be my kind of man with all things music. You do not speak with forked tongue and money lusting eyeballs.

An entrepreneur with heart. Okay enough adulation ... I think this would be great because I have had horrible and ridiculous experiences entering these bloomin' contests!

I know that Ilya write extremely good songs and am totally perplexed when the winner is undeniably shite. I spent a fortune on one contest ... one of the songs I entered was once signed by Virgin and is still used in worldwide advertising by Revlon ... I was interested to see whether anyone else would hear the qualities of this song called, Bellissimo. Of course they never did and that is completely fine, I did it out of interest.

Garage Band has a thing where you spend $19 to enter a song into the foray to bring yourself more exposure. I entered a song from our forthcoming album called Into Happiness; it is just voice and guitar nothing else. I know it is a good song and I know I am a very good singer with a unique voice.

So far most of the reviews have been so outrageous it is infact enjoyable in a painful sort of way. Mostly reviewers saying things like how they would rather 'stab infants' than listen to my voice again; complaining about the bad production of the drums bass and piano!!! .. saying I sound like Meatloaf ... basically a lot of extremely baffling reviews which are so far removed from the song that it makes you really wonder what people are capable of hearing! I paid handsomely for these insults, so I am sure that your suggestion of a free contest will be most welcome by all us musicians. Good on ya "~))

Only Thing Missing would be a cool trophy. The Sivers Cup ?

If everyone and their mom will be allowed to upload any and all songs with zero filters (quality screening) then you will need to listen to a whole bunch of crap in the hopes of finding anything truly special. The harsh reality is that most songwriters can’t write amazing, original and memorable songs, it’s very difficult to do. The #1 purpose for song contests are to make money- they rely on quantity, not quality. History has proven that great songs and songwriters will eventually make into the public’s consciousness without the “help” of song contests. I work at a small indie label and we have a new feature on our website where anyone in the world can submit links their material. We receive submissions weekly and I personally listen to everything that comes in. After over 150 submissions, I’ve only heard one or two artists who have real unique talent. About 90% is garbage (tone deaf, cheesy cliché lyrics and forgettable recycled melodies) and 9% is good/average but nothing that would compel me to listen again, buy a CD or go to any shows, let alone sign them. So who has the time to listen to 99 decent/average/bad songs in order to hear 1 that really moves them?

I wonder if it'd be possible to hijack (sorry, *use a version of*) the software from http://blip.fm, which is already set up to 1. create playlists from long lists of songs and 2. enable voting (in the form of "props") on favorite songs.

Actually, blip.fm is a lot like this already, only without prizes and oriented toward DJs (the people assembling the songs) rather than the people writing and recording the songs.

Anyway, I think to create something uniquely valuable to musicians, the real work would be in labeling it as such... and in focusing the material, too, so the mass of submissions can be evaluated fairly. Maybe sorting songs by genre - and votes by genre.

So, let's say you set up yr contest on a website something like, I dunno, SiversPrix.com. I go to that site and see a feed (like blip.fm's main page) of all the songs entered.

From there, I can vote for anything I like with, let's say, an unlimited number of anonymous "crowd" votes. And some song would eventually be a "crowd" winner.

But I could also register and log in, and I'd have a finite number of, let's call them "judge" votes. Some I could spend on the main queue, OR, I could pick favorite genres or categories, and then vote on what I like best within that category. A song could win "Judges' Favorite: Shoegazer," say.

The "judge" votes could be organized something like the "props" on blip.fm - in order to give props, you have to get them. (A bit like Garageband.com, too - getting karma by giving reviews.) Or registered users could get a set number of votes per day, or per number of times logging in or something. But one way or another they'd have to be scarce.

With songs winning within categories, it'd then be possible to set up a championship bracket system - the "Judges' Favorite: Shoegazer" could move up to "Judges' Favorite: Indie" or something, then "Judges' Favorite: Rock."

OR, you could have songs placed within, say, three kinds of categories at the same time: The "Judges' Favorite: Shoegazer" song could also be nominated for "Electric Guitar" song and "Breakup" song. That way, you'd maximize the number of possible winners.


Grant: I like the way you think. A free songwriting contest should definitely use existing technologies and sites out there, to make up its ingredients. — Derek

I just want to say bless you and thank you Derek for all you've done over the years for us so un-selfishly and may it continue to come back to you abundantly!

I do think categories are good and people are able to review and vote in a category of their choice. Not everyone likes to write. They should be able to just vote. I think you will be utterly swamped and perhaps you need to do that horrible process of elimination ... get to the final 20 in each category then the final 10 and have 10 winners in each?

I think its about time there was a contest taht didn't have a "processing fee" attached to it. What exactly does a processing fee cover anyway?

There are lots of bulletin boards out there that can handle music files. You could even have two tiers, one tier could be the public, as you mentioned, the other could be a panel of industry professionals willing to volunteer their time for this worthwile effort.

Cheapskates like myself would love to enter a contest like this. Let me know when you start this up!

I should note that "crowd" favorites would be the least filtered, while the various top-level categories would be the most filtered.

Better chances of sorting diamonds from mud that way, while still having a sense of openness and freedom.

I think its a great idea, keep us informed, I particularly liked the idea of reaching out to different countries...

Hi Derek,

To start, I'd like to say how super impressed I am with how you never seem to stop thinking about how to make the world of music a better place.

With that said I'd like to add my 2 cents.

Reading though some of the comments, I've kind of summed up what I think are some of the better ideas.

1. The contest should be kept on an Indie level. No Pro's.

2. Listening exposure is the greatest prize for indies. So the contest should have a high exposure to all kinds of ears.

3. A criteria for entry is at least having your songs saleable. This would give songwriters a little incentive to at least take your songs to the next step. Again, no pro's.

4. Set aside a high visibily page on CDbaby for maybe the top 25 entries.(a nice consolation prize)

Thanks again for being out there working hard for us...

Dennis

Hi Derek (and fellow songwriters):

You're on my list of people to meet before I croak. It's so refreshing to see this and so many of us need the inspiration and encouragement to believe a brighter/fairer day will come. ALL - LET'S MAKE IT SOONER THAN LATER!

After reading through some of the comments above, a peaceful chord struck! Music has the amazing power to bring people together! Let's create a music community that Features artists fairly and evenly. Contests may separate and conflict. Featuring artists, even several per day on a page, on a rotating basis, would give us all a chance to share and help one another. I'm available to help!

-Pete

Derek - You are the most open-minded, outside-of-the-box genius I know! This is a great idea and once again you have hit upon a concept that is win-win-win-win...

HHmm yeah Jason 218 has a point ... I am not sure how interested I would be to spend hours reviewing and voting if all that comes my way is of a poor quality. And I am certain you will have millions of songs a small percentage of which would get my tail wagging and my juices flowing.

This is a great idea Derek and I really hope you go for it!

I think a genre split would be fair as, for example, it is difficult to compare a heavy rock song with a balled. Another suggestion would be... if possible, other than prizes (or as well as prizes), could some publishers / record company execs / insiders etc check out the winning entries - I think in a way, the best prize a songwriter could have would be seeing the song itself go on to better things!

Well done on all you're doing for independent musos!

I think that is the only fair way to do it Derek! Once again, why didn't anyone ever think that up before? Probably cuz they're only out for themselves and $. We need more Dereks in the world!

The only benefit to having a submission fee is so that you only get good submissions... maybe there's a screening process at the beginning to be admitted. once you're in though, then it's free for all.

i'd be wary of the whole "anonymous" thing. an artist who enters with an email list of 5000 is going to get their fans to go and vote for them. the fans know the song; they know which one they're looking for.


Christopher: see Paul Thomas comment #189 above: sive.rs/song-contest-idea#comment-9557 — Derek

other than that, i'd love to see something like this. do it!

A great idea... sounds like a fair amount of work to organise, but I'm sure the logistics could be solved!

- insteading of stating as most contests do that production quality and performance will NOT be taken into account (how can they not have some impact on how a song is heard?) maybe factor them in... so songs are categorised by judges in first round of listening under 'high production/performance' or 'amateur recording/performance' and then judged against others of their production/performance level (at least initially, to ensure that good songs by beginner musicians are not culled early).

- for eclectic writers and people who don't put music in boxes, it can be hard in contests to choose which genre to enter your songs under. So start without genres and let the listeners/judges assign genre tags in the first round (creating new ones if required). These could be stabilised for round two if required, but it would be a fuzzy rather than precise categorisation. Actually, though, why put so much emphasis on genre anyway... which to my mind is more about arrangements, tempo and instrumentation than it is about the essence of the song.

the big challenge is to avoid gaming.

This is the idea!

50 % of people are not satisfied with the music which is "imposed" by the different medias.

This is one of the way to proove that and to be in contact with those persons.

G. Chatelain - Paris, France

Brilliant idea. I'd be on that in a second...

If anyone could succeed in creating a fair and level playing ground it's you. I've read the pros and cons of crowd sourcing, so I think your idea of of keeping it anonymous essential. Also a larger group of judges from all ages and tastes, precluding the possibility of trendiness,that I find so hard to swallow. I naturally recoil from the idea of judges,who are inevitably biased, but even the crowd, depending on age and demographic can be biased.

Still, there is a need for something that artists can shoot for. With a live performance,(even more than video) the artist is in the audiences' face, forcing them to listen or to disbelieve. Unfortunately with recordings,the cues that one takes from one's own personal bias can surely interfere with naive listening... Good luck to a real pioneer!

Great idea!

Your idea is good and honest, but I don't believe in contest. Music is not a sport, music is emotion. So I can't understand the way one artist is first and wins, and one artist is second and doesn't win. I think music can't be a race.

Thanks for your attention about independent artists.

I've actually paid money to get some validation of my work. Geez... I've resorted to entering pagents.

Sounds like an idea worth pursuing. The feedback from my peers would be great. Some of the so-called judges on these pay to play contests are of questionable credentials.

I love the idea. However there should be different catagories so say instrumentals wont be down graded because there are no words.

Another reason that categories are important is that if a person really does like a particular type of music it is very hard for them to write about a music that is outside of their knowledge. I know nothing about rap or heavy Metal because it is not of interest to me. So when I picked the random selection button when reviewing in Garage Band I kept getting Indie Rock ( probably a good 70% of the music made by bands) Heavy Metal and RnB & Rap.

Of course I am able to write constructively and positively (if I thought it had some unique-ness) but I wasn't able to compare it with other famous bands in the same field because I don't know who they are. But comparisons seem to be an important factor when reviewing. It is helpful to other readers and the artist.

Dandee brings up a good point. The number of submissions could be intimidating for voters. A monthly contest with a year-end "best of" is one solution that seems to make sense. Any other ideas on how to keep it manageable? Look forward to hearing more on this great idea!

I just have to add another thing "~))

Christopher at 224, in my opinion, is totally wrong. Just because you can pay doesn't mean you are good!

Hi Derek!

It´s asuperb idea, similar to Just Plain Folks and that´s a real success. The anonymity makes it more interesting though. The usual scam "contests" with a relatively high entry fee haven't helped anybody get anywhere I suspect..tried a few myself and they're just that, a money making idea for the hosts. Count me in if you see a way to make it reality.

I agree with you about this, Derek. I'm all for it, and Just Plain Folks seems pretty honest as well. If you can set something up like you say, I'd be all for it. You are right, most of them are scams for greedy people just to make money as many things in life are. Sounds like a no spin way to set up a song contest to me in my humble opinion. Best wishes in this endeavor, Derek Sivers. You seem like a stand up guy to me. Thank you!

Thats a Great idea!!You may need a few watch dogs,but good idea..You are the man for the music.

and all this feedback already! this is a great idea and it looks like all these folks are giving you plenty to think about.

i do love the base-line idea of taking steps to remove any bias in the contest.

I haven't entered a song writing contest in years, because it is just a money making racket, but a free contest I'd be interested in.

Great idea.. I get Stephens point up there, but hey, not everyone has the chance ($) to record a single or a whole cd, and upload it on cd baby.. this is to give those a chance to do something with their music...

A couple of decades ago being an artist or musician was harder, cause you really had to be good to make it, and still the music industry would eat you up. Now there are more genres, more followers, people who are willing to listen to something new, now you can make any music as you wish, no matter how genius (or not) you are, because someone is always gonna want to listen to it... and what better way in such a broad world to help upcoming artists/musicians...

just a thought.

yet another gem from your treasure trove of ideas, Derek. i'm always impressed. but who will implement it, i wonder...

cool beans.

Well, let's do this thing! It shouldn't be hard at all to find sponsors for prizes. Frankly, I'm tired of all the band/song contest on the internet. Time to change it up a bit!

The constructive criticism aspect reminds me of www.garageband.com. Although, some of the rejections there are not so positive or critical, just mean.

You might even consider making it a "non-contest". Perhaps, more of a songwriting group for professional growth. I like www.rpmchallenge.com, how they challenge you to record an album in 28, just because you can!

You have my support. What can I do?

Great ideas! Amazing what a few minutes of thought can produce. I can't wait for you to dwell on it a whole week:)

This is a wonderful idea. I used to submit to all of the other contests but was always disapointed when the results came in. I came close a few times with an honorable mention but noticed that sometimes the winners in what I considered my genres were not quite what I thought they would be. I also like the fact that everyone who is actively submitting will be voting!

I love this idea.

My only suggestion is that musicians judging other musicians who they are competing with might not be the best way to go. How honest would they be?

And how good of a judge of song quality is a mediocre songwriter? If they could hear a good song, they'd write one. Garageband.com is an example of this.

Musician critiques and music lover critiques will always be different. How could you get music LOVERS to participate? Maybe offer them a free mp3 or something... from a band of their choice on the list.

Then maybe you could offer a prize to the artists who got the most requests for their mp3s.

John

I usually don't participate in Music competitions exactly because of reasons which mentioned by Derek...

But this is a Great idea! I would love to take part in something like that! The only thing I'll loose if it is actual songs with words (my English is not perfect) therefore I would love to see such thing in many different categories and styles.

Hey Derek this sounds really good a lot of people pay for what is not worth doing!! No one gets any exposure on a lot of websites!! So this is good!!!

God bless!!

And I don't believe in any judges- specialists - they all politically and economically motivated, they belongs to certain groups and companies, who eant to promote their people who follow certain values and ideas etc.

But when it is LARGE groups of people - then it is lot more FAIR.

BUT it is necessary to have many genres and styles.

And it will be no cultural problem - because classical guitarist won't be interested in judging RAP and opposite, therefore it will be precise enough!

I think this is a great idea. I've had contact in the past with scam artists and their song writing contests. I really would like to be a part of this endeavor.

Mae

Hey Bro,

Sounds worthy. I don't enter those

contests as they are usually for ur

band to do a live show somewhere.

I'm a studio project with just 2

of us who do all of it, so we can't

go out live with no band behind us!

This would be cool to do as it will

give feedback to writers.

Do It Up!

TJ / Founder - Drummer

Shattered Image

myspace.com/shatterednow

Hi Derek,

I have to agree this is a good idea for us independent musicians who don't have the promotions they need to really push their songs.

My main problem is being able to afford an artist management company and or a promotional company to promote my songs.

I agree with several of the other commenters regarding many songwriters don't have an overall professional studio sounding production, but the song itself may be very well written. Many of my best songs have been recorded by myself right out of my own home studio without anyone elses help.

I was a member of sonicbids.com for several years, I submitted many songs to the promoters without ever knowing if my songs were actually being listened to. I was always told my songs weren't picked, but I was never told what I should be doing to correct whatever I'm doing wrong.

I terminated my site with sonicbids due to I honestly feel it is a scam. Some contests would cost up to $50 dollars just to submit one song. That's just not right "in my opinion."

I also have three cds posted on cdbaby.com, I've had many people contact me and tell me how much they like my material, yet my cds aren't selling.

Having a site on Myspace.com has proven to be motivational to me. There are so many fantastic independent musicians on Myspace.com who aren't getting the professional recognition I feel they deserve.

A totally free songwriters contest such as you're proposing is a great idea, but are the voters going to be voting on the overall professional sounding production of the songs? Or the lyrical content of the songs? "Just wondering about this outloud."

Peace

~Mark Johnson~

www.cdbaby.com/cd/johnsonm

www.cdbaby.com/cd/johnsonm2

www.cdbaby.com/cd/johnsonm3

http://www.ubl.com/artists/markjohnson/

Great Idea, Derek.

Everyother contest is usually, "No purchase Necessary", why on earth charge the songwriter.

I am only a part-time musician, I am certainly glad you are around for the folks during this to get food on the table.

Keep doing what you do.

dave

Hi Derek,

My understanding of a song contest is that at least one screener, or possibly every judge involved listens to every single entry. If there are two hundred entries, then the screener listens to all of them and picks the top 10, 32, etc. In a free contest, there would be thousands of songs. The judges would not be able to listen to all the songs and therefore would not be able to pick the best 10, 32, etc. If a listener is judging on a scale of 1-10 on various catagories, what would they compare to?

A wonderful new idea for changing times. You've done it again, Derek! To be honest, I actually wouldn't mind a small fee; if I thought it was going to pay minimal costs. But the fees they usually charge are too much.

One real advantage to this idea is that we would all get to hear the other submissions. It would be a way to hear new music, and also a way to see what other people are writing. Sometimes I didn't really care who won the contests so much as I wondered what the other submissions sounded like.

I'll be there with bells on!

I am behind this a high number %.

Everyone has the talent and will feel so fine for letting it "flow".

I used to write songs for a major music publisher and when I sent my songs to them I would always put the song I thought was best first. But they would always go for a different one every time, which made me realize that the songwriter is often the last person to know which of his or her songs are the best. We become over familiar with them and cannot judge them with fresh ears. I won an award at midem with a song I didn't think much of. I guess what I'm saying is, often the biggest problem for the songwriter when it comes to submitting for a song competition is which on do I send?

Since I have had my music on I-tunes the surprises continue with

people often downloading the songs I least care for, and passing on the ones I love.

Competitions and award ceremonies are always good publicity, and publicity is something we all need. But it is important to note that unless everybody hears every song we have (which is impossible) there is a great deal of luck involved.

I so like the way you think. I feel like the song contest that are out there are just a bunch of bull.I know that if you were to make it happen, it would be for us.......Make it happen Derek!

Thanks for all you do for us....Blessings,

Bryan

Keep it simple. It's a 'song' contest. Limit entries to one instrument, guitar or keyboard and voice.

Find some way to limit the vote to one per person.

The issue of listening to 500,000 songs and picking the best would best be covered by teams of people listening to a set number of songs, 100 songs each say. Picking the best in each group and then listening to the narrowed down list to pick the best.

You are a great man Derek. I love your contribution and ideas.

Tarlach.



That's a really interesting idea: FORCING entries to be ONLY one instrument and voice. It would be a great leveler, but I wonder if it'd be worth losing the arrangements that so often make a song what it is. If you listen to some of my music, for example: sive.rs/music - the arrangement was just as important as the melody, harmony, or lyrics. I'm really curious to hear more thoughts about this, anyone: leave a reply below? — Derek

ONE WORD>>>>>> GREAT!!!

I think it's a good thing, my own personal opinions: as a songwriter I couldnt care less because I have no interest in entering contests, however as someone with a product or service for musicians I think its a win win, and as a general music lover I wouldn't care because I wouldnt spend time searching through countless mediocre songs to vote for one, the web is already oversaturated with average crap, HOWEVER I would no doubt check out the top ten after the masses voted.

Maybe have some screening process, so your not bombarded, not sure how you would do that without getting to political,

just my stream of conciousness input.

I've never had the courage to enter a song contest. I think your idea would work for someone like me. It sounds like a safe place to get some feedback and to see what other songwriters are doing.

I like it! Maybe it will inspire me write something!

Thanks :)

The creative commons market in a sense is already that kind of contest. Podsafe Music, and other "free" sites as well as places like Pandora etc. which like www.magnatune.com use a merit based filter, a lite touch editor, to produce from a sea of junk, wonderful collections of songs.

Youtube, etc. the market is there and the popularity contests are running.

If you are asking for recognition - that special music -- those days are gone, but for the State Fair, and the box office, and the Patronage of the National Endowment of the Arts... the rest of us are just going to throw spagetti up on the wall of the Internet, and see what sticks.

Derek, you sold wallspace at CDbaby, lots of people cooked. Some stuff stayed, some was burned, some delicious.

My music, esp. the Songs to Soothe the Savage Child, can be found on cdbaby.com, as well as many albums an individual tracks at www.clousfamily.com

As I've made it available for free, via Amiestreet.com and other means, I've won the contest, and a number of great folks have purchased it.

As you wrote elsewhere, we are the winners of our own contests, if we can change gears and self promote the music.

It has to be good enough in the first place to eat. Good enough for people to want to come back for seconds. Or in my case, to enjoy it as a well earned dessert.

I agree with whoever proposed theme contests. Listening to a thousand songs in one genre is impossible. Themes (angry breakup songs, humorous love songs, songs about football, songs about work, or what have you) would narrow the field and make it more fun. It might also inspire songwriting efforts. ("Hey, I never thought of writing a song about the city where I live, but now that you mention it I have some ideas ...")

Judging ART is like judging SEX.

To use a scientific concept: it's not even wrong.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Not_even_wrong

Art cannot be judged, but command of craft reasonably can.

Anything judged by the public is a merely a popularity contest. See "Marketability" below.

Anything judged by celebrities is usually about the celebrities, not the songwriters.

Judging "marketability" is a whole different demon. It should definitely cost money to enter the ride, and the criticism should be undiluted. Get used to the shape of gig you're asking for.

None for me thanks.

Love this idea! Perhaps the reward for the voters could be something like being able to download an mp3 of the track they vote for?

Actually, wouldn't it be great for the voter to also have the option of *downloading* the track, listening to it a few times over a couple of days or a week or however long they like (before the contest ends!), and come *back*, input a simple code and vote/critique it then? That way the voter has had a bit of time to digest the track and really see what they think about it - listening in an environment they want to... and see how it fits into their lives (or not), instead of being forced to decide on the spot in front of their computer with what could be a knee-jerk reaction.

Hi Derek, this idea is a little too fresh, as you can see from these many comments. It always seems easy at first, but gets very complicated fast. Lots of sites already allow listeners to vote, and give out prizes for weekly and monthly contests, etc. Some require you to pay, some don't. Many have come and gone. Please see garageband, ourstage and many others I can send you if you are interested.

I actually wrote a detailed functional spec for just such a site and hired a programmer to implement some beta code, but it quickly became clear this was more than a one man job, and was a big hosting investment.

A better approach would be to use existing media and organize it. For example, think about having a site that would find original songs on youtube and automatically create catagory contests. The site would not manage media, just voting. The whole site might not be a site at all, it might just be a set of youtube channels that run the contests. Some people have been doing this manually, but perhaps there is a way to use programming to automate the process.



Great idea, Mark! — Derek

I don't usually enter contests, but this I would do.

Just a few thoughts: Great concept: Potential snags:

Selecting Genres would be tricky. Would you give prizes in different genres? What about music that isn't a "song"? Would that be a different category?

How about anonymous judging for anonymous entries...A fan popularity contest is weak conceptually, since that would make it a PR contest, not a musical one!

Judges would/could be music fan volunteers. No musicians, pros & no band members, etc...permitted as judges...Each volunteer gets a number and must choose a top 3 in each category...Votes would be weighted & totally & prizes awarded accordingly... Thoughts on a napkin...Best wishes 2U!

Seems like a very good idea. Just one thought. The contest should be in various genres. It would be hard to compare heavy metal and for instance R&B.

Would love to participate with a song or 3 :)

Hanse

This is a great idea, and Derik is just the guy to get it rolling! Hey I never inter any of those pay to play song writting contest! I will be the 1st to enter when it happen's!

Big Ran!

Derek,

We should talk. We're about to launch a submission platform around Music Xray that would work perfectly for your idea. it's nothing more than an intuitive, simple submission platform set up specifically for contest organizers, A&R departments, music supervisors and program directors to easily queue, organize, file and manage song submissions.

There's a review component as well that organizers can choose to use or not.

Give me a shout.

Mike



Cool. Keep me in the loop about it, once it's launched and people have been using it for a while. This song contest thing may never happen. It was just a one-hour brainstorm. — Derek

Love the idea... And the thing with some categories is appealing to me, since it's hard to pick something when you have all genres, styles, lyrics and all that in one pot.

I would definitely submit a song.

Count me in! We'll show 'em!

A Voters Prize? How about free downloads of "X" number of their

favourite songs?

Here in Ventura County, we have something called the MAVRIC awards, which is kind of like the Grammy's for all the musicians in the county. Free to enter as many songs as you want, it includes an awards show where some of the nominees get to perform and the awards are announced in front of a huge crowd. It has really done wonders for introducing the local artists not only to the community, but to each other. Very cool, too much to write in a comment. Check it out for yourself.

www.mavricawards.com

The guy that puts the whole thing on is Doc Rogers. I STRONGLY recommend getting in touch with him and picking his brain. The two of you really have a lot to offer each other, and you're both selfless crusaders for the independent underdogs.

mavricawards@gmail.com

Excellent idea Derek, I don't know of any indi artist who doesn't want to put his/her music out there, and this would be a great avenue for that, plus it's always good to get feedback from others on quality of recording etc. Clearly we are all with you on this.

Rod

great idea, Derek!!!

I never (with a couple of exceptions a few years ago) submitted to any song contests for that reason - that it's often biased and someone is clearly profiting :)

so I love your idea!!!

Music should never be in competition. Never never never never never. In my family's mountain tradition, music is shared freely or it disappears.

Perhaps this time I send a song. I do have enough to choose from anyway.

I won 5th place in a contest once. I entered many more such as the John Lennon, and I put myself up to the critiqueing of garageband. I have also critiqued close to 100 songs there...it seemed the more I liked the song, the better review I would write, and there were many I didn't like. It's hard to be harsh when you're you know the song has potential, but then you have to select certain the elements that are good or need work, compliment when necessary, and judge using categories such as musicianship, production, arrangement, and lyrics. I was insulted many times by the critiques of my songs, and I wondered how some people with very little talent were actually giving me low scores because they have no sensitivity or taste.

Great idea for a free contest!! I think you should have maybe 3-5 levels of substantial prizes that are not too far apart in terms of value so as to make it worth trying to attain and not give away lots of little prizes because the best will all be very good.

I'll have to consider entering, however my own creative work takes a considerable amount of labor and I may not be able to just throw something together that quickly.

Hey Derek, still reading? Along with 283 others, I'm liking the idea.

Wanted to specifically say I LIKE the idea of CATEGORIES BY GENRE. (Country, pop, death metal etc.) so that folks can listen to the stuff they like.

DON'T LIKE the idea of "best lyrics" "best arrangement." Too many people probably wouldn't really understand what an arrangement is anyway, and lyrics are part of the song, not separate (in my opinion of course)

LOVE LOVE LOVE the idea of limiting submissions. 20 per genre or something. Maybe run the contest once a month. AND don't let anyone vote unless they've actually listened to all 20, or at least part of all 20. Would take a little time, but hopefully lead to more fair results...

xo

m

It's a great idea and gives us all a reason to write some more songs now!

Dennis Derby

Great idea, Derek!

Go for it! :-)


All The Best

Bettina

This is a fabulous idea. Count me in!

Hi Derek, I always enjoy your creative mind at work, so thanks for your efforts again. I like the double blind idea so it's not about who knows the most computer users. I also think the lots of prizes and people listing what they would want to win is brilliant. I've had musician friends talk about that idea so you don't win something that you already have. My only suggestion is about the negative voting you have to write a comment. Since I have a masters in Psychology and am a singer/songwriter I think it's better to just have everyone list what they liked about a song so people can build upon their strengths in future songwriting. Also, this would be like an unspoken what they should work on because if the feedback is missing then that's the areas to work on. This could be stated upfront. I also believe that all music is subjective and on other web sites (that I will not mention but are major players) people can be critical and then another person be over the top positive. Most all the musician's I know take critical dumping on which is often what negative feedback lends itself to as very painful, and blocking to their going forward with their music. To me there's a big difference with "negative feedback" by a professional in the music biz that you respect and feel good about working with your songwriting skills and someone who leaves negative feedback because they or their friends want someone to "win" or feel threatened by someone with a "better" sound. I'm all for listening to people feedback even critical, but I use professional or people who are at a high level of ability to give me that. I think the contest idea is great, but that negative feedback mixed into a contest opens up individual's to double wounds of losing and being put down for trying. I hope you can get what I am trying to express here. I think if you are trying to make a better contest tool then aim for the top. There's already plenty of places to get negative feedback or have your songs put through the ringer. Like Ricky Nelson said, "you can please everyone so you have to please yourself." When you ask for explainations for why someone scores a song long they can be and are often are extremely brutal and belittling which is not helpful. This is what my musician friends and I agree on. Otherwise, I think you hosting a contest site like you are talking about is awesome. Thanks again for creating the conversation and getting the idea going. Best Wishes, Kyleellen

WAY cool! Sounds great to me! So are you gonna sponsor it, Derek? (that's what you get for having great ideas!)

How about if YOU just pick the winners? Or a panel that you choose? Oh...that defeats the idea of getting people to listen to unknown music. Well, they don't anyway in all those contests, they just vote for their friends.

I like the double blind idea, but what's to stop me from telling everybody on my mailing list that my song is the fifth one down, the one with the chorus that goes, etc. Interesting idea, maybe a few bugs in it.



Gary: see Paul Thomas comment #189 above: sive.rs/song-contest-idea#comment-9557 There is no way to tell your friends to vote for you unless they're willing to vote on every song submitted until yours finally comes up, randomly. — Derek

Ok, this sounds great but it's, IMHO, 2 different ideas.

I think the contest would be awesome in this way. Specially if it's not about uploading a song and, then, getting tons of people to vote for you, which I hate.

I love the prices and all; it's a win-win situation.

About the "collaborative & open" thingy, sure! This has been my dream for a long time; I'd love to upload some idea and have people participate, modify, etc and make several versions... but this doesn't fit into the contest part.

I think that letting people vote is ok, but let them vote more than once and qualify each song (1-10) with the option of qualifying various aspects or just an overall.

For example, maybe I love the music of the solo fo a certain song, but I don't like the singer... let me speak up! Let me give the music a 9.5 and the singer/lyrics a 6.

A great idea. An opportunity to 'air' new music to an audience of fellow songwriters.

I am Not against song contests in principal BUT

1 Don't call it a contest call it something less competitive and more comparative

2 Make the categories far more diverse and specific how can you compare indie with Folk in any constructive way that benefits the musician and these sort of things should benefit the artist primarily and not just in the winning but in some genuine and constructive way put heavy limitations on the amount of production values in this way the songs are the issue not the production

Let's do it!!!!!1

I think this is one of the best ideas for a song contest I've ever seen. Please notify me when you are ready to start. I can't wait!

Great idea! I've been suckered by the fee thing a couple times, this would be so refreshing.

I agree categorizing by genre might help.

You are so right!

I'm game!!! I second all that's been said!! Derek - you are AMAZING!! thank you for all you are doing!!

In the ivent that it was done only for the sake of art/craft . that is imposible.

At the very moment that you bring forward the art and good craft you bring good quality and goodness and beauty to the for .

whatever you do let artists and craftmens prosper the world will heal .

great idea. maybe even split it into genres. hip hop, rock, punk, etc. to not compare apples to oranges. i'm not big on competitions especially ones that charge a fee. those are just schemes. i like this. being able to pick your prize is an added bonus. the whole not seeing and image or name before you vote is great. people are consumed by what they see. keep it real and vote on what you hear. long live honest music!

Absolutely great! I didn't read all the responses, so maybe this is redundant, but there's a site that does something with songwriters critiquing other songwriters - where you're only allowed to upload a song if you review ten songs by others: it's www.bandamp.com . However, they don't do anything with prizes.

I would definitely enter your contest and aim for the plug-in rather than the marketing advice!

It's a really few peorle honest in this type of ideas!

You are one of them!

Thank you for what you doing!

I'm all for it! Just as an aside, I have spent so much money entering festivals and contests on Sonicbids. Ok, maybe not "so" much, but enough with no return to think "Hm...this might be bullshit". Example: I spent an extra $20 on the Atlantis Music Conference for a 3 song critique. It was $50 to submit for showcases btw. One song their critique was "didn't do it for me at all". um...ok. Why? I just spent $20 for that? If you said "I hate the singer, the guitar sounds crappy, and the drummer can't play" that would have been at least SOMETHING.

So I love the idea - it takes the OurStage concept to a higher level...look forward to submitting!

This is a great idea. Just let me know when and where to enter. Thanks.

Great idea Derek - perhaps follow it with a compilation album of finalists. Count me in...

Great idea, Derek! Can't wait to take part.

Dear Derek,

You may or may not recall that last year, on the U.N.'s International Day of Peace (9/21), I co-founded OneLovefor...music, an international Peace event that united millions of people in dozens of countries through the medium of radio. Our plan was have the whole world singing Bob Marley's One Love at the same time: 9:21 am/pm GMT on 21st September, 2008.

Although we didn't reach the whole world, we did connect to millions of people all the way from Australia to Zimbabwe!

This was purely a passion project. No money was exchanged and our soul intention was to raise our planet's vibration.

As a result of this success, we now have a dedicated team of programmers and designers building our OneLoveFor... social networking site which will incorporate Music, Film and Art in a way that will blow your mind (and I know it takes a lot to blow your mind Mr. Sivers!).

As you know, I am the writer-producer of the upcoming film - Peace Pilgrim (click on my weblink for more details). I have always planned to organise an international songwriting contest, open to anyone and everyone, to write a song inspired by Peace.

The winning song would win a cash prize, bragging rights and a coveted place on the end credits of the film.

I just wanted to share my vision with you, as your latest idea deeply resonated with me.

If you would like to know more about OneLovefor... and our plans for the Peace song contest, please don't hesitate to contact me.

In peace, light and continued gratitude,

Mark



www.positivepicturesgroup.com

hmmm... other than the potential of multiple prizes, is this concept different than ourstage.com?

scam = yes. all competitions are scams, song comps, band comps, sometimes you get some decent exposure, but don't they all seem to have a 'preferred candidate?'

now that i think of it, it's sort of like looking for a job.

I love the idea of people saying WHY they don't like it...too many times in this business everybody tells you how much they LOVE it, but you know as soon as you leave the room......

sound like a great idea.

Love the idea.

This kind of thing is great inspiration to light a fire under me to get some more tunes done!

derek.

your brain is like popcorn. YES.

it sounds amazing.

though i am not as aware of the bad side you point to about other contests..

i think what is strong about yours is the double blind aspect. if the number of each song goes one step further and randomizes each play, it will be almost impossible for people to track the song and artificially beef up plays or positive votes. might require comment for positive and negative, with capcha...

that and one time url and it is sort of fool and robot proof. don't take this the wrong way, but you are a genius.

thank you for letting your brain do this.

stef

I especially like the idea of keeping the artists/writer anonymous until after judging. Hey Derek!!! You ever thought of setting up a social networking site specifically for indie musicians???

Paul Thomas (#189) responded to my comment (#153) saying:

--the way to keep it honest is by using the Garageband.com model, where you are given a song to review. You don’t choose it. You don’t know who it is. There’s no selection involved, except, possibly, the genre. After you review and critique it, and submit it, you are then given the name of the artist. To find your friend you want to vote for could take you thousands of reviews, if at all.--

To which Derek added:

--Thanks for re-stating this. Sorry if I didn’t make this clear enough in the original post.--

Derek's original post says:

--The listening, judging, and voting is best done by the largest number of people possible.--

So what remains unclear is whether the intent is 'open voting' where anyone can listen and vote, just not knowing who they are voting for -- OR

Having a large behind-the-scenes panel of pre-selected folks doing the evaluation.

If the former, then I don't think you can actually have a 'song' or 'songwriting' contest, because, as stated in several of the above posts, songwriting really needs to be judged by songwriters, not the general public.

If the latter, then the questions shift to:

-how are judges selected

-how is it factored in that all judges don't hear all songs

- can the time/expertise of good quality judges be obtained for free (I don't think so), so if the entry is free, how are the judges compensated?

The overall concept is one which when stated, sounds great, but there are lots of logitical issues to sort out to begin to make it feasible.

That said, if this were to actually go forward in some way, I've judged regional and international songwriting competitions, and would be willing to help work out logistics.


But really, I think what's most important for songwriters is not 'competition' but genuine constructive, objective, analytical critique and feedback on a song. Having run thousands of non-competitive critique sessions across the U.S., I find songwriters hungry for this type of resource. It's a difficult thing to find and is of great value.

I have 2 articles on the topic here:

http://www.billpere.com/Songwriter_Tools.htm -- one called "The Three Levels of Critique" and one called "Role Call". The roles and skill sets discussed there are relevant to many of the things that would factor into this type of process.

I'm always glad to see new ideas discussed that can help songwriters, but it's important to execute them with a clarity of vision, process, purpose, and outcome. Those things need to evolve through this discussion.



Bill: A core idea of making this totally free is to believe in the “Wisdom of Crowds” and let just anyone be a judge. Some experts. Some idiots. But collectively more accurate than having only like-minded experts. Less management. Less cost. (No cost. No money paid to judges.) — Derek

great idea Derek. I recently entered songs into a contest called We are listening. After an expensive submission fee, I received this message. Our judges have selected the finalists and, unfortunately, you were not selected this time. We have not yet announced the winner but we expect to do so in the next ten days. The same songs that were denied from the contest were accepted into a very prominent music catalog and placement service. It would of been great to hear some feedback on the music itself instead of the crappy email telling me I lost, haha. This contest was a waste of money for sure, don't submit your music if you read this!

I think I would like to compare the artists vision for the song to the song itself. I think that can be quite revealing. I for one would like the story behind the creation. I think "hitting the mark" is a skill in itself.

brilliant idea

Thank you Derek. You have started a most interesting debate. There are a lot of 'free' contests out there genuinely in search of quality material. We have a very specific lyric writing competition and want to make sure we are 'found' by as many writers as possible, so I spoke to the extremely charming and helpful Sonicbids team at MIDEM. They will happily put our competition on their list and we can offer it for free. They did however point out the disadvantage of a free entry namely, as mentioned by many other people here, that one would be swamped with entries and it would render the considered judging process impossible. They do not set the charges and said they would advise charging a minimum of $2. There must be other publishers such as ourselves who are keen to discover great music and lyrics from a wider field and perspective. Our purpose for the competition is very specific - based on our ongoing project 'The Voice of Naples' the first CD of which is thanks to you doing very well on CD Baby and on the digital sites- we would therefore take the time to listen, judge and give feedback. Our aim is to find the best material for eventual publication and recording which is what the lyricist / composer wants at the end of the day. Perhaps it would be more practical for you to set up a sort of clearing house, for those offering competitions, with a panel to weed out the scams? By the way if you have had the time to read this over-long comment and made it to the end you would be kind enough to send us your address to liberomusicpublishing@operamail.com so that we could send you the small gift we had hoped to give you in Cannes. Sorry we didn't catch you there but a huge thank you from one and all for all the extremely helpful interview clips from MIDEM.




I appreciate the need to limit junk, but the whole point of this 1-hour brainstorm was to find a way to do it totally free. Maybe the submission time is only 24 hours: on the 1st of each month, so that only people who really want to do it will remember to do it in that 24 hours. Maybe (after a few months) the only way to submit is to be recommended by an existing winner! There are many other ways to limit junk than just charging money. — Derek

this is awesome idea, good, good.

Hi, Derek,

I think it's a fantastic idea. I know that I would love to get some real feedback on my songs by people who have no reason to trash them as they do on some of these voter type music web sites. Good critical but honest feedback is a great tool for any songwriter. It would also be great if the sight attracted perspective artists who might be looking for their next hit record. I'm sure I am not alone in thinking that some of my songs could be a "hit" if only they could get into the right hands. and judging by some of the crappy songs that some of these artists sing and win awards for, I think it's high time they got a listen to many of the quality songs that are out there. Thanks for the wonderful idea. I'm sure it will be very successful and I will one of the first people to upload songs!! Make it happen Derek!! Thanks for your love of music.

Maria

What fun you have. Wake up one morning with an idea and within 24 hours you have 280 people's feedback.

I was going to leave an idea but by the time I got to ‘280’ pretty much every idea I had was covered. You will have to sort through them all.... all great points.

My main feeling was that it is just too big and keeping it regional (or even State by State) and genre-by-genre would limit the ‘mess’ people could just vote for music in their State and then have a global play off. If every CDBaby member entered there would be 200,000 songs. You may get a million entries and to judge any one song I need to be able to say “song 364,483 is definitely better than song 687,294”.

It is surely only fair if, like a normal song comp, everyone hears all the songs? Otherwise how can it be judged and compared (fairly)? And should it be public or industry? Usually it’s industry. Is the public really discerning enough to judge all music?

As someone said – isn’t CDbaby already ‘the competition’? Don’t you have an annual award/recognition (other than the sales cash) for ‘most sold’ in each genre? And CDbaby already has a feedback function. Perhaps just have a place where people could upload their songs for feedback rather than as a competition? But isn’t that mp3.com? FaceBook? MySpace? Isn’t the Top 40 the ultimate competition? The Grammies?

But still... a million entries is all too big for public or industry judging. It took me 30-45 mins to skim through these 280 replies and that’s more time than I have.... 45 mins to write and edit this entry. To listen to enough songs to do any justice to the ‘competition’ just takes too long. I could listen to 10 or maybe 25 songs... that would be an hour. How do you cull? Who culls? There would be a lot of rubbish and many, many gems.

I like the idea of it being on an acoustic instrument of choice... like ‘unplugged’... to keep it all about the song. Two (overdubbed) tracks only. Guitar and voice; keyboard and voice; voice and voice.

The ‘payment for a competition’ helps weed out people who are not reeeeally interested/serious (or ‘good’) and also helps support the judges. Even just a not-for-profit competition would be better or where the profits are donated to world hunger.

Maybe.... a ‘competition’ for a specific beneficial purpose... like... “Write a song that will save the world!! - Submit your own ‘Imagine’!” Then offer to release the top 15 winners on a compilation album? Donate all profits to world hunger and climate awareness? Do 'downloads only' to limit manufacturing pollution? All the entries could be listened to online and comments left (constructive criticism only!) but take world leaders in the consciousness/environmental movement to judge it (after nominal culling)... Al Gore, Bono, Ram Das, Eckhart Tolle, Depak Chopra, Oprah(?). Oprah could do a show on it (The power of Indie music and the Net) and feature the top songs.

In these days isn’t it too late for competing? Isn’t it time for bringing meaning and healing into people’s lives? Working together to awaken everyone with planetary transforming songs? Someone like you (Derek) could pull it off.

Jay

Thanks for always thinking about us little guys!

LIKE THE PUERTO RICANS SAY, ECHA PA' LANTE ESA IDEA. GOD BLESS YOUR BRILLIANT MIND

I think it would be a great idea. I can't afford the entrance fee that the other guys ask for. Derek you rock!

GREAT idea Derek! Wouldn't it be nice if ALL contests were run this way? It would seem to encourage people more on their merit instead of how much money they can come up with to open 'contests' doors for them......

I'd participate, but I wouldn't run it. The joy of songwriting is motivation enough for the former. The pain of another to-do list item is negative motivation enough to prevent the latter.

Hmm.

@ Jay and Derek

The order of play for each song entry will have to be totally randomized to ensure that every song has the same probability of being heard by a "judge" listener.

Over time the law of large numbers will prevail and the cream will rise to the top even if there are more than a million entries.

Respondent number 360 here.

Just exploiting every networking opportunity as usual!

As soon as I read your idea, I also immediately thought of Ourstage, which I only just recently discovered. I have belonged to them very long, so I don't know about their glitches, but still, it is a great idea...a social network type of site, where musicians create their profile page, add their songs and everyone rates them. I know Ourstage also mentions that they have people in the music industry that belong or are connected, so as one's popularity increases, a music business or label may look into them. I would be curious as to your thoughts about Ourstage after you have had the time to check them out.

Great idea!

think every songwriter,artist,

musicians.would like summet like this.All a see happin everyone

just try in there best to rip off

unsigned artist you know wat a mean.

maks me laugh..would be a pleasure to see mutual motivations

and not some corrupt minds

stay up derek!

Jsean..

This sounds great!!! I would love to take part in this type of songwriting contest :)

Of *course* it's another "great idea"... It's Derek Sivers!

Hey there...it sounds like a good idea to me.....I AM SURE I AM NOT THE ONLY ONE WHO HATES THIS PAY TO PLAY CRAP......FROM POLITICS TO THE MUSIC BIZ IT IS A CROCK OF s#*T.

Derek, I,too think that this is completely on the right track and I'd also like to say that if there is anything I can do to help other than submitting music (which I will happily do)I'm keen to help in any manner.

Sounds like a great idea to me. Leave it open to the public. Free press is a great way to reach people.

Great idea. I quit doing song contest except for the NSAI one once a year cause I know the proceeds go to help a great organization that works for all songwriters. Your idea sounds like a workable concept. The idea of picking your prize and the double blind judging is what I like the most. That way it's not a fan contest.

I have always told songwriters not to waste their money at $35 (or thereabouts) per song entry. John Braheny gave out this advice long ago in a Los Angeles-based songwriters' newsletter, and I have stuck by it ever since.

I am all for your idea, Derek. I will support it in every way I can, and I will advise all songwriters I talk to to support it also.

Thanks, man.

Ellis Tharp

Sounds too good to be true. I would make sure if it is a songwriting contest, that the artist doesn't have to give up any rights to the song entered (I've seen contests like this - they want to be able to use the winning song as they please). And I would ask the contestants to name the songwriter(s), and ask them to submit proof upon winning. and maybe the top ten (or whatever number you think is good) would get exposure (that's what we all want, isn't it?), or for their song to be heard by a lable, or something along those lines - winner's choice maybe? You could feature the winners songs and websites in your emails and site.

I really like the idea of it being anonymous. I never enter song contests because I'm not willing to harass my fans to vote for me. It would be cool to enter a contest that was based more on merit than who's got the most friends.

Sounds like a good idea.

What about a category for instrumental songs, too?

It would appear that when you speak every one listens!!!

It looks to me from reading here that you have your answer.

Best of luck my friend! Brad

Hey,.. I like this idea!! I've purposely been suspicious of and have avoided song contests that demand an entrance fee. And, at times, I'd thought that the winning entries were questionable. Thanks for presenting this concept. Also I like the previous idea proposing a category for instrumentals,...which is something I like to write in addition to songs with lyrics.

Hi Derek,

My only 2 thoughts are 1) The size could be unmanageable as someone else noted. I've entered some of the "peer" review contests and I can only listen to so many songs.So some more thought is need on that IMHO.Maybe regional to narrow it down to say 50 songs,then have all the registrants get one vote to pick the TOP 10 which go to TAXI for final picks? 2) I agree with some others that by and large song contests are a rip-off,having some kind of entrance fee does weed out some of the riff raff. Since the admin costs should be way low the way you trying to go about it, you could have a $5 per song entry fee that would be used to enhance the prize pool.

thanks

Jim

I've won the Australian National Songwriting Contest and received accolades from Billboard and Unisong. Basically, these awards are what I've made of them.....with my own promotion to press/radio/my biog etc. And they have been great. They have their place. However I love your idea especially if the listener does not have an artist name. Also like the fact that the artist can choose the prize they want. I do think these prizes have to actually further a career rather than making a half hearted attempt at it. e.g. we need these sort of prizes; '2 month promo campaign' or 'radio plugging' or 'support slot with major act' or 'advertising in a major music mag' or dare I say 'guaranteed inclusion on the playlist of a commercial radio station' or 'a slot on TV' or selecting a piece of equipment the musician actually needs. (I now have several pairs of free sunglasses - mmm. Maybe I could sell them for strings). Joking aside great idea Derek. Need to get major players involved worldwide (promo teams, radio etc). Personally I thought Just Plain Folks contest was not user friendly and this may put a lot of people who have very little time on their hands off the process. So, the software/voting process has to be simple and quick. Someone like you overseeeing this having been a musician and having the whole cdbaby thing under your belt would be ideal.

If the votes lifted a song up and more votes lifted it higher The best songs would fly above the rest.

Some of us already know getting lots of votes doesn't make something the best. I keep my songs in a folder and sometimes I read them but mostly I don't. I could vote for them all but I probably wont. Competition seems pretty lame. If you like poetry and music share it with everyone.

A guy used to stand in the middle of the swap meet here and sell poems for a penny. One day he told me he made $1.16. I'm sure he loved giving people pieces of himself for a penny.

Sounds like the 1st songwriting contest I'd enter.

Fantastic idea! Love it.

N-track studio had one last year with some nice prizes. I think it was a big success, couldn't do a follow up because I ended up with surgery, around the same time. All I know is I didn't win, but I submitted a few songs.

Guy @ fizer music

TOTALLY AWESOME IDEA, I WOULD DEFINITELY SUPPORT IT!

funny how the mind works...woke up and read the idea and immediately thought..."can't see how it would fail."

And as I wandered off to the shower, then thought "why did I think in terms of double negatives" - regardless of the fact that it then becomes a positive"

Of course it's a great idea. All things being equal it has to succeed.

See David ... one thought ended with the word failure and the other ended with the word success.

It's early in the morning in Australia and we are upsidedown on the globe :)

Well, very good idea. Would this include songs with and without words?

You have always been great at helping us all get a head in this business and you always keep it very positive.

Derek,

This is a great idea. As a writer, I am really annoyed by poetry and fiction contests where one has to pay around 25 dollars or so to enter. It can feel insulting enough to be an artist at times. The fee makes it worse. Good for you for addressing this.

Laura

I like the idea. It would be nice to find someone who could put someones music into the movies, commercials etc. I think it would bring some excitement to the contest. This is an area I would like to check out anyway but not sure how at this point .

Ted Snyder

Yeah count me in! I have several songs I would like to submit. I submited a song to the USA song writing competition and did not here from them until about 8 months later and I didn't find out who won until way after the fact. Unfortunately I payed $35 to submit my song.

I LOVE the idea! Go for it! I also like the idea of garnering useful prizes. But it seems to me that one problem would be that you might actually get hundreds of songs and no one would actually listen to them all to get a comparative rating of any kind. So some thinking should go into tracking the raters as to how many songs they actually listened to and rated. And I would suggest some perhaps gross categories like singer/songwriter, music only, and other.

I can help with the web site if you like

I'll bite.

Awesome idea Derek! Love the part about people not knowing who's playing the tunes. I'd love to be a part of this!

Since my first album sent to cdbaby it was the best thing I could have done so I SENT ANOTHER ONE and I'm luving it.I'm with that and thanks Derek for allowing me to be apart; hey you got the music so let the game begin cause MG KEEP IT REAl coming FROM THA FIELD

I love the idea! I'm sure thousands of us will enter incredible songs... how will I tear myself away from the computer?

Derek, I think this is a marvelous concept. It is yet another means to promote our work and honestly one can't have enough means!

In most cases it will require little effort from most as we've more than likely already sufficient recorded songs to choose from and submit. I'd love to see this through to fruition!

George

great idea please keep me informed, and let me know if thjs could really help some of us song writers that have tried the pay route and got no where. I think we have all been there at one time or another.

Derek

I agree with your sentiment regarding the contests, and I also feel like it's more homework. I didn't get into writing music as a competitive sport - that's what rippin' lines is for...

I also like the anonymity of your proposal. Too often the contests are really popularity contests, where you get more friends, family and relatives to get you over.

Keep that brain stormin'. Thanks as usual.

peace - f

Broadjam (if I may mention the name?!) sends me these things everyday. Because I tried it once with them and they made me pay, but could not guarantee if it would be listened to by the right person as (s)he has too much to listen to. So, I've ignored them ever since. Also, I'm presently participating in 'THE' song contest, 'ISC'. And everyone raves about it - with all the BIG names in the industry. Last year's winner had their song up on myspage page. But I couldn't bother to listen to it the second time?!! And soon, they'll be announcing the winner.

I THINK IT'S A GREAT IDEA! YOU AE TRULY A FORCE IN THE MUSIC/ENTERTAINMENT BIZ!

YES, INDEED, IT SHOULD BE Y O U WHO GET'S THIS GOING!

LET US KNOW WHEN IT IS UP AND RUNNING

THANKS FOR BEING YOU!

Hi Derek,

This is really a great idea. I would really like to see it coming from you.

You make me thinking about Seth Godin... great ideas creator and marketer

I love the idea and have, submitted to a lot song contest, never got anything out of it for my troubles and entry fees!

I hope you include the Blues and other genre; so POP Rock dose not dominate!

I do not like the idea of us,judge a few anonymous songs for every one of theirs they want entered. this is what I did not like about garageband.com

I like the idea of the public music fan voting from around the world,this could be the next new thing! I say go for it.

I think this is a fabulous idea and time who's come. All the song submission companies out there are just making money off of songwriters desires to be famous and rich. Sure looks like the only ones getting rich are the companies who do the "submissions" for a fee. Bring it on Derek!

I like it Derek - it's another variation on Barack's organizing for change site, and others....we all vote once, anonymously, and songs move up into the "finals." Truly the People's Choice.

My main worry is that those who are higher tech can make more fancy arrangements that can make not very special songs sound special. Those of limited tech ability can see their song unable to compete. Maybe some categories could protect the simplicity of a song in some way, and others could cite arrangements as the criterion?

Let's have a go at it!!

Derek,

(beware, this gets rather grandiose but stay with me) I like your idea but I wonder how your contest would stand out against the plethora of others already out there (albeit that so many seem like true scams)if it is only to remain a "songwriting contest". Don't get me wrong, as a songwriter, I believe most of us who are serious want to find the most recognition for our craft that we possibly can. We all seek to find some way to be heard above the noise of an unfiltered world out there in cyberspace. But why should the global community participate in this voting for a song? How do you get them to care?

Well, my answer to this may be that you get them to care by promoting them (the global community as a group) and not just the song they are being asked to vote on. Give them a cause much larger than just voting for a great song. How about voting for the survival of art itself in our world in the age of "content should be free" advocates everywhere. The concept of global communities that built Wiki or Linux could be the same community that reminds the world that art is one of the most important human commodities we have to offer each other. Perhaps you need one or many sponsors of these prizes to be high enough on the food chain to be able to offer endowments, bundled tour possibilities, cultural exchanges of ideas between winners from different parts of the world such that the global community (the same one on Facebook, Twitter, etc, etc.) votes for keeping art not only alive but keeps art being created on the highest level by keeping artists afloat (translation: compensated)and not feeling that they need to be spitting out a YouTube video every night or an album every week. I don't claim to have the answers for who, what, how either but I think you have to think big here and we know you can do this already. Remember the old Coke commercials? ("I'd like to see the whole world sing in perfect harmony...") Something like that where the songs could end up in really high exposure places, but that even the winning song actually promotes the craft itself to the world that voted for it. It could feed on itself and songs would just be the beginning. Sorry for the rant but hey, you got me to think beyond my own art, just writing this. Thanks for all you do.



Mark: I totally agree and I love the way you think. Please continue with this line of thinking and post any ideas for how this could be done in a real practical sense. — Derek

You know Derek, I couldn't agree with you more, which is why I stopped submitting stuff to song contests long ago and proceeded to focus on other means by which to promote music, which, after all, is what the majority of us want anyway, nevermind the promised big prizes and short term moment of glory which is going to be dispensed by 'insiders' involved with the 'contest'. I'd rather take it to the people and let them be the judge cos they, the common average person, are, for the most part, going to respond to emotional content/impact, not on, say, the technical proficiency of the musician in question. I note you had no qualms about using the word greedy. That definitely hits a nail on the head. Take out the greed, among other things, and those submission fees which a majority of struggling artists can't aford, make it honest and about the music 100% and then, maybe you'll have a good contest. The best contest of all, as I presently see it, would be one in which the ones who don't actually win are not losers, really.A good honest contest would, I think, motivationally induce a striving for excellence.

Well, I definitely do have views of my own regarding ideas like this and could go on and on, and maybe I will, on my own website, but, for now, I'll add my two cents worth and say, yep, if something actually does come of what you're presenting here, it wouldn't be a bad thing at all. How much support would you get? Probably a heck of a lot judging from the other responses here. In short...good idea!

I love all the great ideas.. If one is going to have a songwriting contest, this would be the direction to go in.

But I still can't help wondering, Why have a songwriting contest at all? Even the idea of such a relatively "humane" and nonexploitative competition raises uncomfortable.. well, I wouldn't even call them "questions" -- just a sense of, "Isn't there a more productive way to channel all that energy and esprit de corps?"

Why bring so many people together only to, once again, divide them into "winners" and "losers?" We get enough of that in so many areas of our professional lives as songwriters and performers. If we want to create a _real_ "win-win," a contest is hardly the way to do it.

That said, if a contest it must be, then something like this is the way to go.

Hey this idea is marvelous --I would simply recommend clear boundaries of course,and a team for this world wide phenominon. SMALL WORLD BIG FAMILY we musicians, eh?

hey Derek! Thanks as always for your good energy and great ideas. Like others here, LOVE IT! but I definitely support what somebody else said about judge also best lyrics, music, who knows, different aspects, like most commercial possibilities to the best 10 world beat representatives, the best well written to the one that touches you the most, the best hook etc. Anyway, in these times, who knows, the one that seem to unite us more in some way. LOVE to you

Any way it could make money for a charity?

yay!

Great idea. It would be ok if an entry fee were only $1-5.00 just to offset the time and expense of screening etc. Scholarship fund would also be nice.

Separate catagories for styles so it isn't just the most popular genres always winning.

Excellent idea. Scam, scam, scam...three reasons I never enter song contests. The one that American Idol hosts each year, comes to mind. Anyway, I've already thought of a song that I'd like to enter. I'm sure you are welcoming all genres, 'cause mine is gospel. Just let me know when your idea becomes a reality! I'm ready!

I really LOVE this idea and hope to be a part of it!

Damn, I couldn't find one negative reply! Good to have people who aren't just in it for the money!

Be Well !

Hey Derek,

Thanks for thinking out loud.

A fan recently asked me why I don't participate in contests anymore.

She saw me as a Falcon Ridge Emerging Songwriter back in 2004.

When I told her most of us 20 Finalists that year sang on a rain-soaked stage while everyone ran for cover and we're not sure how people 'won' anything as no one heard us, she didn't get it.

Bottom line is like any and all of the Festival contests I participated in, there was a definite pool of friends, social clicks you needed to be in on etc... before you even had a chance.

And how can you pit artists against each other anyway? Secondly, how can anyone 'win' when not everybody gets a fair shot?

Good, great or whatever, a lot of these 'contests' are about how well you play the game, not always how well you sing, write and perform.

I played it well for a long while. At least until I caught on.

As a finalist for most of the folk fests, I can say the only thing I got other than bragging rights & 'bio building' is 'maybe' I felt included in whatever click that fest happened to subscribe to. Yuck. Yuck. Yuck.

All I had ever wanted was what everyone wants, for my songs stories to be heard.

The fees, the politics and clicks, that took whatever good was left away. At least for me.

The politics of the music business almost ruined me to be honest. I am still recovering and will probably disappear from Facebook etc... soon enough as that too seems to be getting full of clicks and politics. I liked it before the whole world came on. Yuck. Yuck. Yuck.

I'm not as bitter as I sound. Really. But I agree with you 100% about the way things should be run in this department and I am guessing most of us here would probably agree on a lot of things regarding the business of music.

In the meantime, I am continuing on a new path to living my life for something other than.

Once I get my love for music back (sans business) I will find a way back onto the folk train (in my case) without being tailed & robbed by every hobo on the box car.



Christine: I totally agree and it almost wrecked it for me, too. What drives me forward is imagining how things should be in a best-case-scenario, then trying to make those happen. — Derek

Hi Derek.

Great idea that synthetize some other sites ideas.

GB is great, but votes and reviews aren't so fair (most people is there just to pump up their music).

MeerMusic is great, but is quite impossible to receive a review :-).

I understand the need of 1-song-limit, but do you really think artists know what's their BEST song? Pete Townshend hates "Pinball Wizard"!!! :-)

Maybe a 2 or 3 songs limit could work.

Let me know more about your idea, I'll be in.

Brilliant idea as always. The song should be brand new, so Pete Townshend wouldn't have to worry about "Pinball Wizard" and people would hear just songs of today.

Ya, nothing quite chaps my ass like paying a massive fee to enter a song contest that I have as much chance of winning as American Idol.

Would anybody be able to vote? How could you ensure all the songs were heard, not to mention equally?

Great thinking - thanks for everything you're investing, Derek.

Count me in.


Anybody be able to vote, yes. Simple programming can ensure all songs are heard equally, since the listening and voting would be done by “play next song”, and the system would send the listener the next song in queue to be heard. All songs would have the exact same number of votes when the contest is done. — Derek

Just listened to your songs and music Derek. Very good. I like it a lot. I also have a song with the line "I shedding the skin I've been living in." lol.

Be Well,

Tarlach.


:-) Thanks! — Derek

Excellent idea! Very close to JPF, but much less volume to wade through if you are not picking albums, too. My only suggestions would be these:

1. Limit artist to submitting a particular song only once, ever, forcing that person to pick the best-fit genre for the song's one shot. I don't see a need to require that it be new for that year, just your one best song.

2. I would limit the artist to one song PER GENRE, for those of us who write in 5-6 genres. If a screener feels a song is miscategorized, then a check would need to be made for an existing song by that artist in the genre where the screener thinks it should be moved.

3. A problem is that some songs are not a pure genre (example-I have a song "Escape Artist" that is well-liked, but it would not fit with purists in Jazz, Pop, Blues-no home.... Maybe there could be a category for the hard to classify songs, called "unknown genre" to let a screener decide?

4. I love the idea of the critique, as long as it is specific and constructive ("This songs sucks" would not cut it, but "intro was way too long to the point of irritation" or "chorus lyrics were too repetitious" would), and any judge who didn't think about why they didn't like a song and express that, should be banned from judging...

I hope you do this! Wonderful idea!

Kelly :)

I believe it is a wonderful idea.. however, it can get overflowed by submissions, so, how could people hear all submissions? I think it can start locally... ex. if you live in NY you get to listen to the tri-state area.. and then the "winners" go to the next round, and now you vote and listen to all the songs in the east side.. and so on.. until, you get to listen the finalist of the entire world.. is just a thought... how could you get to listen to aaaall the songs uploaded... i think this would give it a little organization, and then, you can start rooting for the song that came from your region... this, just a quick thought...

another great idea Derek!!



chad

Great idea Derek. I've looked at a few song contest sites and some of them you even have to print your own certificates if you place! The best way I've found to spot a scam song site is to follow up and look at previous winners websites. Usually they have no mention of winning said competition!I like the smaller OMD's such as Mixposure that run little contests just for fun. Money and prizes are great and no ones going to say no to them but shouldn't it really be about the music?

Cheers John

Just read a comment about Taxi on here. Taxi is a great example of a company that can do wonders to help you if you have the talent and the money! But it does nothing to support 'struggling' writers who don't have $5 to throw at every lead. I've just asked for a refund from them as I don't feel it's right for me. Bet I don't see any cash back! They have a really interesting quote with their feedback that it took 10,000 tries to perfect the lightbulb so don't give up submitting! 10,000 x $5! If I had that amount of money to throw around I wouldn't need them at all lol.

Anything that inspires people to hone their craft is good by me. I don't know what people have against spending money to participate in a song contest. Money is a tool that allows the organization and administration and logisitics to work in a huge endeavor like a song contest. I've been involved as a judge for several contests..it's a huge amount of work and most of us don't have the means to work for free. I don't think, as some members have said, that they are scams. That just sounds like sour grapes to me. Most people enter them as a vanity endeavor..to get praise and recognition. Sounds good on a resume to be an honorable mention or runner up or even winner in a big contest. If you need feedback on how your writing measures up against successfull writers then join NSAI or the Songwriters Guild and get feedback from people who love writing and want to see the tradition carried forward. A free contest would be cool but it wouldn't be any more authentic than a paid one. As I learned in Psych 101..people who pay for things get a higher level of satisfaction from what they pay for than people who get it for free. That's just human nature.

I help people to hone their craft and I charge money for it....my 30+ years of professional experience in music is worth something. People want things to be quick and cheap and easy..that's now how you get great at something..it takes sweat and blood and tears. I didn't make that up.



(“...a huge endeavor like a song contest.”) - My whole inspiration for this brainstorm was that with the proper system-building, a song contest doesn't have to be a huge endeavor. A very online system could be mostly self-organizing, and most of what people pay the contest to do could be done for free by the community. People used to think classified ads in a newspaper needed to be paid. Then Craigslist found a way to make them free, by making the whole system more efficient. I still have the higest regard for experts in the craft of songwriting that are great at helping others improve their songs, but that's a different paid-service than a song contest, which really can be done for free. — Derek

Hi Derek.

Great idea. To be judged by fellow writers and music fans is much better than some panel (however well connected).

A 'contest' is a bit meaningless when applied to art anyway, because it is on the basis of personal taste. Perhaps the emphasis should be not the 'best' song, but the song(s) voters love. You would need categories I suppose, but these could be fairly broad. Then again, maybe the more specific the better (perhaps the user could have the option to change the category as they vote and a certain number of changes would put the song if say 'alt.country' instead of 'folk' - because it's quite hard to choose a category for your own music sometimes).

I definitely like the idea of someone not knowing who you are until they've voted. Ideally you want it to serve as a way for fans to discover new music. A way to make it easier. (I.e. if it's by a certain genre, it would be a great way to discover new music and the voting idea adds a fun purpose to it.)

Another thought I just had is could you have an 'artist this most reminds you of' box. The voter chooses an artist, within the categories/genres. Then as more people visit the site they have more direction as what they are to find there. (Again, I'm thinking more from the viewpoint of people finding new music rather than 'winning' a competition. Although of course, the prizes will be won by someone and no doubt appreciated.)

As a few of the other comments have said. Great to have you on our side with these kinds of ideas. Keep up the good work.

Regards,

Paul

Yes, it's a good idea....

there is something more you can do with your portal:

I think you should tribute a page or a link to the indie labels that give to you their products; in your website, actually, every cd is considered as a "single artist" album, I think you should give more help to indie catalogues.

Great idea Derek - I've got a few genre specific ideas of my own that would big fun and would help the last of the few living blues people but doubt I will ever be able to do any of them because I have no money to make it happen. You on the other hand have worked hard and now have some time and money to do a few good deeds - THANK YOU!

(For a quick look at just one of the typical corporate contests that make me gag look here:

http://www.getroadworn.com/rules.php

YUCK!!!)

Another of your great idea. I really like the blind contest part. The only thing I would suggest is not to make the "comments" mandatory since for some people it would seems like a daunting task and would refrain them from voting.

Hope it will happen soon!

It is worth to try and if you do not try you will never know!

I like this and I'd say go for it-I'm just a little concerned about a skew towards the most currently popular styles. I'm just an old(er) fogey and tend to write that way.

I think the idea is great as are many of your ideas, Derek. However....

I never know how I feel about this. As an interpreter and not a writer, I am excluded from this kind of activity, yet I make my living as a singer of songs both old (traditional) and contemporary-composed. I find the assumption that all of us are songwriters is a bit disingenous. Many of us who sing and respect the old songs are excluded from many opportunities because these always call for "original material". For myself, I don't have that particular talent.

Contests to judge writing and composing are fine and I have no problem with this. But when a performance opportunity or a performance "award" (and JP Folks are guilty as well) call for "original material", then a large part of the artistic musical community is left out.

Where do we fit in?


The most popular TV show in the world? It may not be your bag, but just speaking objectively: American Idol (and Pop Idol, Britain's Got Talent, etc.) - are all about the performer, not the song. It seems these online things are the only place where songwriters get the attention. Usually it's the other way around. — Derek

Why just for a popular "song"? Why not include "arias"? Pop songs are the disposable tissues of the music world. There is little to distinguish them, and not a whole lot to recommend them. An aria or two might at least last longer?

Great idea!

Isn't "OurStage" doing something very similar to this?

Derek,

Here's an example of where I was going with my last rant on where you could go with this song contest idea. Check out this video (maybe you've already seen this) about Mark Johnson, a producer who decides he still believes in humanity even in these dark times and creates a movement called Playing For Change. And I highly encourage anyone else reading these comments to watch this video. It's truly inspiring about the very real power of music to transform the world. Enjoy! http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/10242008/watch3.html

Excellent idea. I have never participated in a song contest before, but this kind I would, prize offering or not.

I think, as usual, you are thinking of the musicians first- something of a revolutionary concept in this industry. Still.

All I really need to know is where one signs up!

Pax,

Matthew

--

http://matthewebel.com

Regarding your comment about limiting junk -- who is to say what junk is? I have heard the winners of some of these contests and I am often surprised how bad they are.

My husband says we songwriters are all narcissists.

I begin to believe Dolly Parton when she said, "I'm not the best, I'm the most persistent. When all others fall by the way I'm still standing."

It's a perfect idea. I never liked all the contests that charge money but this would be worth entering.

A few thoughts about the contest format.

• Requiring an explanation of a negative response might be tricky. If people don’t like the song they are perhaps less likely to waste any more time on it unless they really hate it and want to vent. And what would you do about people who make a negative response and don’t explain, or just give a one-word reply? Not count those votes? Screening responses is a lot more time-consuming than just counting. The solution might be to provide a short list of reasons why someone would or wouldn’t like a song and have the voter just check boxes. Then the comment field could be optional. That way you would only get comments from people who actually had something to say.

• What about having voters rate a song 1-5 on a few different points (lyrics, melody, arrangement, performance) You could have winners for each category and this would also provide some useful feedback to the songwriter.

• To prevent ballot-box stuffing you could use a benign cookie scheme to keep track of which songs had already been rated from a particular computer.

• You could also present the songs to site visitors in a random order rather than have them select what to listen to from a list of titles. If a particular song has already been rated it wouldn’t be presented again, but maybe previous voters could ask to listen to a song again and change their vote if they are having second thoughts.

• It would also be a good idea to require people submitting songs to rate a certain number of songs in order to qualify. (OK, so maybe some people would give lousy ratings to everything just to increase their own odds, but this isn’t the mega-millions lottery, and the effect from that sort of thing would probably cancel out anyway.)

Anyway, great idea. Keep me posted.

Great idea. Keep me posted. I will participate.

So....When do we submit? :)

Great idea, hope you do it!

It's a good idea, and you have so many good ideas, Derek! My observations about song contests from experience: You can rank very high and still get nothing, if you're not the very top! So I like your idea of awarding many people. Your idea sounds sort of like garageband except they don't do that.

I like the idea of categories. The best chord progression should be one. How about a category for most original?

The idea of having a demo with only voice and one instrument - that should be one category for those who want to submit in that form.

Also, I suggest you include some prizes that really help songwriters with their careers, such as radio promotion packages, tip sheet memberships, showcase opportunities, etc. - or maybe even contests for film licensing deals!

I think this could be a great opportunity to many musicians/artists. If you need any help please ask. On my website I feature any artist/musician and I'd be glad to post on it anything you need to promote this.

I particularly like the idea of having the music blind anonymous for picking the favorite song.

Anything you may need that I can do I will help you.

Barbara

IT'S ABOUT TIME! AND IT WILL WSORK!

Lot's of great coments here. But the big question to me is how can you be assured that the people who are voting on your songs are the people who actually listen to the kind of music (or genre if you prefer) you play.

I've always had a problem with genre decisions anyway. There are so many elements that contribute to what we think of as genre - rhythmic organization, instrumentation, melodic content, motivic development (or lack of it).

Maybe you could find a way to cooperate with Pandora or something to identify musical elements independent of what the songwriter thinks.

Which brings me to my next question. At this point aren't you also judging production and musicianship rather than just the song (melody, lyrics and chords?) Or maybe that's the point..?

I think its a great idea and It sounds like you have answers.

Good idea, it serves the song not the singer.

And the idea came from a guy that isnt in it for the money any more.

Your working up some very good Karma there Bro.

Completely agree. One of my buddies at Sonicbids ALWAYS tell me how songwriting competitions are their bread and butter, but if musicians keep throwing them money, why would they stop having the contests? Musicians need to realize that a contest isn't gonna make them the next big thing, only they will. And if they do win, there's not a magic wand that makes them instantly famous.

Makes good sense to me. I would definitly do it when I learn how to upload songs (I'm an old guy).

This would be great if it's not like garage band, with all the reviewers reviewing each other in competition-that gets vicious. Someone always wants to be Simon, like American idol, that's always pleasant.

How about reviewing only if you are not in the competition that cycle.Make it a quick contest like every 3 months not two years like j.p.f.

Do you think something where people don't have to be mean to oneanother could ever work?

kevin wood kevinwoodmusic.com

I have rarely entered song contests for exactly the reasons you list.

I would be more than willing to pay a small fee ($5-$10) if the money, or at least most of the money, was divided somehow between the winners.

# kevin wood wrote on February 20th, 2009

This would be great if it’s not like garage band, with all the reviewers reviewing each other in competition-that gets vicious.

Someone always wants to be Simon, like American idol, that’s always pleasant.

How about reviewing only if you are not in the competition that cycle.Make it a quick contest like every 3 months not two years like j.p.f.

Do you think something where people don’t have to be mean to one another could ever work?

Post Script,Ya I can dream it

kevin wood kevinwoodmusic.com

Dereks response to #40

“there would have to be something in it for the voter” < -- I totally agree! This is the final part I'm a little stuck on. --

Derek The voter gets to compete in one of the following competitions, but not this one, kevin

Anonymous, double-blind, insiders stay out...I like it!!

What can I do to help make this happen?

Thanks for thinking of us, Derek, I am grateful!

Ray

Hi Derek,

So few responses on this idea I see... (: I like the idea, one of my concerns is genre. If, for example, I submitted an obviously Christian song, would that 'turn off' non-Christians who then wouldn't listen for the quality of the song material? Another thought is it might get swamped by shear volume. Would take many, many hours to listen to thousands of submissions. Who has time for that? My advice would be to perhaps do it in stages over a period of time, or have a pre-judge panel to wead out obvious crap, (though some might like crap!!! -- and who determines what is or isn't??) Maybe sub-diving into genre would make the whole process easier to manage.

It certainly sounds like a great idea. We would be interested. Keep us posted. Thanks Derek.

Yes Derek! As a songwriter I find it ludicrous to pay someone to "let me" enter a contest for a fee.

As a publisher (admin@damngoodtunes.com) this is part of the reason why I try to help as many unknown artists as I can because the need a break!

Bruce Maier

Hi Derek,

These are some great and legitimate thoughts.I have started a website of my own called RhythmQwest.com it's for the indie artist/DJ that wants to sell their songs,music videos and more to the general public around the world.We are new but up and coming with many fresh ideas for the near future.One of them is creating a compilation CD of 14 tracks from Indie artist's around the world.Submission of course will be free of charge to the artist

and artist will get paid from the sales of that CD.

I am in the process of preparing

the website for this.

The website is free to join and all artist of all genres are welcome.But first and foremost being a musician myself I feel that I have the duty to the best of my abilities to help the artist in what I can to help further their careers in the music industry.Where it's already filled with many thieves that are only out to help themselves verses the true talent.

Respect,loyality and honesty are very important things in life

that we should all live by everyday of our lives but have subside through the years.It's a never ending turning circle of darkness.

I hope that I can start changing that through all the blessings that God has given me.

I encourage all artist to join RhythmQwest.com now and be a part of a new future.

Thanks for all your great thoughts I admire you and have done so through the years and your truly someone to look up to.

with Warmest regards

Armando M.Lopez AKA Mannyman

President and CEO

of RhythmQwest Entertainment,Inc

www.RhythmQwest.com

I'm involved in an indieheaven song contest right now and find it quite entertaining. I did not have to pay to enter it (I agree that a free contest is nice) and they have a system of rating that is based on stars. I think that your idea of a blind listen is curious and could lend itself to the artist getting noticed. Feedback is a good idea even though you probably can't coach the listeners to be constructive. Keep us posted on this idea!

This is "Great" You must be a Superbeing in your thinking!

Go For It!!!!!!!!!!

I think a contest that is tied to a label from the Indie world that has benefits of a release with an established artist.

This seems like a great idea that focuses more on the musicianship of an artist rather than the popularity or quality of just one song.

I was looking at an old Gig Magazine yesterday. A company had advertised for a songwriters contest. Of course $30.00 was the fee. Who has $30.00 to give away. Thirty dollars could buy me a credit card machine to sell more items at shows. I could use it to help someone I know. When I saw that advertisement I laugh.

Paula

thanks for your good work, i think the idea is great. wishing you the best. aside from our comments is there any othr way for songwriters to help the idea along?

best,

Holly

I love this idea! thanks for clueing me in. keep me posted!

I love the idea. I admire everything that Derek does for underground music and I think people are finding out that their is more music out there than the stuff they hear on popular radio stations and MTV. Someone posted that an CD baby radio station, like an XM station I think this would be cool too.

Hey now, Derek ...

More great stuff from you! The "idea" man, you are! Keep it up!

First of all, I'd like to recall Thread #105 as was posted by John Reynolds. Personally, I think he hits the nail on the head. I, too, have entered a few of my guitar instrumentals into some contests. Results were "honorable mention" to "runner-up" ... but, no "winner" results have I received. Nevertheless, I keep moving forward.

As John Reynolds has said, "... it is this ability to reveal new insights after multiple plays that makes a song great." I do have to agree with him. Every song or tune that gets reviewed, via a contest or otherwise, most likely gets only one listen (by one or more persons).

One may never know what frame of mind the "contest judge" or "listener" might possess. And, there is one already mentioned company which I believe is only looking for clones (sound alikes or sound similars) rather than for innovative original works.

So, Derek ... Please do take your steps toward developing the truly no-cost Independent Song & Music Contest. Your ideas and actions are an inspiration for so many of us! And, please contact me directly if I can be of any creative help to you.

Cheers, best, and thanks ...

DF

Hi everyone,

Just general remark, not reading very much previous posts:)

- there is another, quite different, but very interesting issue - in a way connected with contests...

EUROPEAN and other governmental FUNDS for art and culture and for music among them -

it also refers to the funding of artist cooperation + artist travelling +

conferences and most likely to SONG CONTESTS

For example - In Europe (where I come from) there are vast funds

for culture/art and music...

look here - http://www.culturefund.eu/

As far as "trans-national" music cooperation is concerned, it could be easily

proposed many joint musical/songwriting/cross genre artistic events which

in U.S. would be called "ENTERTAINMENT" but in Europe would be easily

called "ART" which is - in my opinion - the main difference of describing

these fields in the U.S and in Europe.

What significance it may have for - say - American

artists/musicians/songwriters etc, ??

That - many of such projects - supported financially by European funds -

may have the aim -

European-American cooperation!

Or European-Asian-American cooperation.

For example joint songwriting event of European, American, and ASian

songwriters meetings/showcases etc...

Even a Transeuropean-American Song Festival, or whatever.

Sky is the limit of the type of such a project.

here more related links:

http://www.culturefund.eu/

http://www.coe.int/T/E/Cultural_Co-operation/

http://www.transartists.nl/opertunities/funding_in_europe.60.html

That's it - only for some inspiration...

all the best from Poland!!!

Andrzej

www.rejman.org

I think a song writing contest would be great, with someone like yourself is in it to inprove and promote the art. If you can make this happen It would mean so much for the quality of today's lyrics which need improvements. Thanks for caring. Robert

Great idea.

I would like to see a contest that awards cash as a prize. Winning prizes can cost songwriters money (paying taxes on the prizes they're given), having to pay traveling expenses to go to an award show, etc.

I would also like to see a song contest that can actually look beyond the production of the song and give awards based on the song itself. I can listen to a song that's sung a capella and tell if it's a good song or not or if it would be a hit. I don't need to hear a bunch of over production and instruments overpowering the vocals to see whether it would be a hit song. Sometimes less is more.

Sounds like a good tool for talented songwriters to get some recognition. I like the idea of tagging the contest into some of the more popular song marketing sites. A segregated portion just for the contest entries and an opportunity to review and vote on the songs entered. There would be more listeners and the marketing sites could even do a little product advertising. Go for it.

Perhaps you could combine the songwriting contest with the radio show everyone wants you to do. Winners would be played on your show - weekly, monthly, however it breaks down best. This would provide lasting exposure to musicians, and a plethora of new music to those that want it (even if they weren't involved in the competition). As far as I know, none of the other contests out there directly feed into a radio show (but isn't that the most logical extension - "we think these songs are great - everyone should hear them!" - instead of all this effort culminating into a trophy on someone's piano.)

This approach would also elevate the status of the voters, as they would acquire bragging rights ("I helped get this band on the radio.") Voters become promoters - more of the community (wiki) vibe is generated.

What a brilliant mind you have. Let me know if I can help.

Derek-

I think you have a few responses here... Maybe you're on to something. Thanks for sharing, as always. We learn & grow only withthe help of others, & new experience.

It sounds like a great idea, but could be time consuming to judge. As much as I do not like categories, I do like all the categories on the "Just Plain Folks" web site. Solo guitar Instrumental composers, such as myself, have absolutely no chance in most competitions that reward mostly singers that have great voices, good looks, and lame lyrics.

I'm a bit allergic to the notion that "the market" or populism should define what is good art (though I accept the double blind is a nice touch to try to mitigate this problem). Competitions are usually there - like grants - to help struggling talent be funded where the commercial market place can't offer anything. The problem here is that really extraordinary work that advances an art form, (Dylan, Hendrix, Joni Mitchell being self- evident examples) invariably aren't truly popular and attract negative comment in abundance at the time of the shift in paradigm: Dylan would have been landlocked in a 1961 folk staitjacket if the public vote were the defining opinion. Salieri was Court Composer while Mozart went to a pauper's grave. Put at it's most crude... the public would know, and indeed define popular song but they wouldn't know a "great song" from a frozen turd.

How about some strange categories that you would never see in a regular contest like "Best Tear Jerker" or "Most Outrageous Song" or "Most unique voice" "Most unique Style/lyrics" " Most original in Category" etc.

And I like the idea that someone said about radio air time. Maybe get some big city stations involved that would guarantee radio airplay on a regular basis for a month and then even more if their listeners express approval of the song. Or a guarantee from a national radio syndicated program like etown for a personal appearance on the program. Also, a spot opening for a nationally known artist for a few shows: Can you imagine having a prize that would give you the opportunity to open for Bob Dylan for a few shows during his concert tour?

etc. etc. etc.

G'day Derek.

to coin an Aussie phrase regarding your idea....BLOODY OATH!

And about time too! I'm sick of all these endless pushes to enter countless songwriting contests which are largely rigged by the persons judging anyway and cost a fortune to enter!

If you entered every contest there is out there a muso would go broke. I mean why does it cost $30 per song to enter. Are they using the entry fees to fund the prizes?

Enough already...I say 'bring it on'!

i would be totally with that whole idea,its about time that we had just our own peers judging our music yea im totally with that

Jopi,

Not everyone is as computer literate as you. $35.00 is nothing to an old duffer like me who either doesn't know how to, or doesn't want to "set up" his stuff. Some of these "song contests" want what I consider to be serious money for their "entry and judging fees". Even if you win, uaually nothing ever happens with your song. I won a board game one time that I gave to a friend but now I can bill myself as an "award winning songwriter", 'cause I am!

Hey Derek!

As usual, brilliant fodder for debate! and I must some of the threads in the conversation here are worth a LOT :)

What I would say is (like mentioned above), this sounds like a perfect Application for Myspace? (or Facebook?) since almost all artistes that you are looking to submit music are on Myspace / Facebook anyway and if not, need to get on there!

Also, both platforms have made their Application Programmer Interface open for people to use. So it could just be a site where people agree to be part of the contest, submit their Myspace URLs, So the songs can be picked from there, re-hash the URL so that people don't try to figure out the band before the review is done and then vote!

What I also think is, to borrow the cliche, 80% of the reviews will in all probability be done by 20% of the reviewers and so I think the bands should have be able to review the reviews they get. This way the reviewers build credibility in the system and I guess an obvious reward for a reviewer is when the band uses his/her review as part of their promotions?

Also, if someone is repeatedly just dissing bands without reason, that gives the reviewer a low rank and somewhere down the line, the system could figure out that reviews by good reviewers are worth more than reviews by bad ones and act accordingly?

The more I think about it, the more I feel that this should be the "Digg" for music where good music floats up and that way leads to being discovered by a lot more people and instead of a contest, this should be an ever fluid listing.

-Gaurav.

Speaking only for myself, there's a disconnect after you do your cd if you can't afford promotion and you're not gigging. My stuff is political and, by it's nature, hard to sell. You always offend someone with political music. Cdbaby should actually do something about promotion, get a judging unit that says this or that meets a set of criteria and spell out what that criteria is, not just so-called commerciality. You'd do your cd and then, if you wanted, cdbaby would review it honestly. If it sucked, that would be the chance you took. Then the "winners" could go on to get the "airplay" mentioned elsewhere here. There has to be filters and then the worthy stuff has to be played by someone other than commercial radio and then you've got to get people to go to that "someone".

I think you are on to something. I never enter my songs in contests because they ask for money and then there just seems to be no real chance to win because it seems so random anyhow... what could the money be for since its free to upload your tune and the prize offered is not cash (or not enough cahs to justify $35.00 + just for them to open your attachment)?

Yeah... sounds like a better idea than what we got now.

Hi Derek,

I liked your idea for a

no-fee songwriting contest. Seems all of them want $30.00 plus per contest, with several contests running per year/quarter....Also, some will make amateur writers compete against established songwriters, so who do you think is more likely to win???

Sounds like a great idea!

Hi Derek Thanks for your interest in all of our careers I have mixed feelings about a contest but your ideas about anonymous listening is really good. Maybe winners' song could be placed with big time artists OR said writer could actually land some kind of recording deal. I am glad to hear that you are still inerested in music production. Mark

Hi Derek

Think its a great idea - its very hard to get your songs noticed. Best of luck

Hi Derek,

Another great idea by you.I've always felt that those song contests that are listed all over sonicbids or elsewhere with the big fees are a rip off for the artists. The result is usually the same, they make money and the artists lose money:))

I also like "Just Plain Folks". But another one "Airplay Direct" also does a lot for the artists and all of their services (unless if you want a special advertisement on their sites) and the song contests they make are free!

There are a lot of details I liked about your idea, just worried though if this will be open to all the nations, then it might be hard to judge, since they will all have different languages and different styles:) But definitely a great idea!

Kutsal

Hi Derek,

As always I appreciate your efforts to help indie artists and songwriters, and I agree that most songwriting contests are not worth it.

I do however believe in the ones that would offer cash prizes.

The challenge I see with your plan is how do you narrow it down to the finalists for each category? What happens when a thousand songs are uploaded for a genre?

I appreciate your efforts.

Regards,

Darren Staten

The Songbroker

An outstanding idea! What I particularly like about it is the anonymity feature. By keeping it anonymous and preventing people from stuffing the ballot box, it guarantees that the songs will be judged truly on their merit. That's just what the world needs. Sign me up!

Dear Derek,

I think the ideas great BUT in terms of judging there is quite a bit of time involved,if one is to be thorough and impartial. Therefore the division of labour would be the only real hassle factor in the scenario you describe. I would be more than willing to participate if I like the format etc. I did offer to help just plain folks on their English sojourn but heard nothing.



Best of luck,

David

PS. the Japanese co. you recommended have been in touch and subsequently several others have taken interest so thanks again!

Let's do it, I want to enter this contest.

Love the idea, Derek!

Hi this seems such a great idea but I write only gospel songs and I don't know if they will fit. Should you have a gospel segment I will be there with bells on. I'm sure I could find one good enough to enter. I have written almost a thousand songs and I sure would like to get one out

so move on with blessings

Emma Nell Gillilan

Hi Derek:

Fine idea about the contest but if you believe that Just Plain Folks Music Awards is the closest to this idea why reinvent the wheel? Why not team with them if they are interested and perhaps make the combined contest even stronger?


Keep thinking!

Joe P.

Excellent idea, but an idea is like a wick, now you need the dynamite. Someone to make this a reality. I hope you get this running, cause I'm in.

Applauding Derek for yet another brilliant and timely idea of giving new songs a fair chance to be heard and evaluated. Can’t wait

Derek,

Thanks as always for your visioning - - -

I wanted to throw an idea I am trying into the ring. I am running a contest on my website requesting only photos and stories to be included in a video / slide show as a way to build a "community statement" based on a song I had written.

http://danielrmandel.com/photos/PhotoContest/PhotoContest.html

This could also be applied to your idea by stating an up front theme or guiding principle that sets the context or parameters for a given contest.

Thanks as always,

Daniel Mandel

yes this is good... im always leary of "a signup fee" if thats where the prize cash is coming...theres something goin out to the coordinators

maybe songs could be numbered rather than titled?....

cuz the myspace bulletins would be flooded with vote for "my song"it already is with other contests.. which is good active promotion you cant find fault in but...an anonymous contest or "song fest"

resulting in say a compilation through cdbaby perhaps... would be good(and the artist could get royalties(if they are cd baby members just like if you have an album and the royalties are divided by who wrote the song.

its always good to hear how bad ya suck so you can get better or stop foolling yourself i get so many cds to review form peope who say we dont saond like anyone else but as a musical roots tre guy i can trace the influences or even song parts.. hell when i was 13 I thought i came up with the riff for taking care of business by BTO which is realy midnight rambler by the stones which is really an old blues song.but good songs and arrangements always standup even a simple demo in fact if it sounds good as a one instrument demo it may makke a great song produced " the beatles i am the walrus started out as an acoustic gtr song...and for those of you who arent beatles fans.. we wouldnt be writingour own stuff if it werent for the fab four pavin the way prior to them SONGWRITERS like lieber/ stoller or carol king and the rest on salary would pen your music and teh musos siomply performed them

I think its an o.k. idea. Seeming that it takes money to start a campaign. How would the genres be divided? Ofcourse, you couldn't judge rap and alternative the same.

Thanks Derek...sounds perfect...It is always a good thing to keep music alive and this would certainly go this way...stimulation is the key word...:)

I just finished a song today and would certainly contribute in due course...I mean the idea of contest doesn't matter so much to me...but I suppose for most it acts like a trigger.

Much love from London

Annemarie

The fee aspect has kept me many years from submitting anything. Feeless allowa the average starving artist to be judge by talent and not monetray means. I assume you would still categorize by genre.

I would help to spread the word to my many talented songwriter friends.

Mary Z. Wilson

The Restless Hillfillies

As I am putting together a radio show as we communicate, finding songwriters who remain independent are a must. Count me, let me know if there's anything I can do to help.

Summarizing some threads thus far:

--Derek responded to my post #368 with the comment: A core idea of making this totally free is to believe in the “Wisdom of Crowds” and let just anyone be a judge. Some experts. Some idiots. But collectively more accurate than having only like-minded experts. Less management. Less cost. (No cost. No money paid to judges.) —

The comment at #462 as well as the one at #331 clarify the voting process and how "ballot stuffing" is avoided. It does not yet address the issue that random pairing of song and listener does not assure that all songs get equal listens from people who like (or dislike) a particular musical genre.

This then focuses the issue as follows:

In any "Wisdom of the Crowd" open-voting scenario, the result could identify the most popular song, but probably not the best-written song (those are two totally distinct parameters) with the voting of a general audience being most heavily influenced by vocal performance and musical style, rather than lyric and melody independent of any other factors. The actual definition of a 'song', functionally and legally, is lyric and melody. Not arrangement, production or performance.

Thus, as long as this is put forth as a song popularity contest, and not a 'songwriting' contest, it would be accurately presented. (echoing #545). The next question is then, why would a songwriter enter a popularity contest driven by performance, production and stylistic taste? It all seems a better fit for artists and producers than for songwriters. (Interestingly, many of the comments contributed here by those identifying themselves as songwriters say they're not particularly driven to enter contests at all).

Comment #472 suggesting prizes for the listeners rather than the artists, i.e. no voting, just listening , is perhaps the most most original twist so far, and could in fact have some appeal for songwriters. I would add the option of the listener giving some feedback if they wish, shared with the submitter, but not made public.

Regarding Mark's post # 443 which asks:

--- get the [global community] to care by promoting the global community as a group and not just the song they are being asked to vote on. Give them a cause much larger than just voting for a great song. How about voting for the survival of art itself in our world in the age of “content should be free”.---

To which Derek wrote:

-- I totally agree and I love the way you think. Please continue with this line of thinking and post any ideas for how this could be done in a real practical sense. —-

For a working example of using music for something larger than itself or the writers and performers, see http://www.lunchensemble.com , raising more than $1,000,000 by using the power of popular music to produce positive social action, following the example set by the late great Harry Chapin. The program is now in it 20th year, and still growing.

I'm all for anything that helps artists and causes beyond just promotion, prizes and recognition, but I also think it is very important not to lead people to believe that the art of songwriting (songcraft) is interchangeable with the distinctly different arts of performance (stagecraft) and production (studiocraft). My songwriter association, along with many others across the US, work very hard to make this distinction clear to writers, performers, and general listeners.

As long as it's free.. why not.

Finally, a sensible idea. I like it.

Contests often provide an excellent platform for corporate brands to tap into communities with varying interests, music or otherwise. In my opinion, it would be very difficult to launch an upstart song contest with zero budget (unless Derek publically endorses it). However, it's possible to launch a free-to-enter song contest by associating it to a corporate brand willing to finance operations in exchange for an exclusive advertising channel to songwriters and fans. Securing a sponsorship deal is not easy but feasible if you have the credibility and network to reach and close with the decision makers. If you're not that person, you'll have to hire one. Non-exclusive advertising realestate on the site is a long shot because this is a truly niche initiative that’s unlikely to draw so many users to make it worthwhile. If it does, operating costs will soar and an alternative revenue model will need to be implemented.

The "wisdom of the crowds" a la OurStage.com, MusicNation.com, FameCast.com etc. voting process is a viable one but the incentive is not as strong as it used to be in terms of a music discovery experience for the ‘fans’ (voters). There are lots of accurate, semantic music recommendation systems that provide a much greater incentive for music fans to take part, in less time and certainly for free.

For argument’s sake, let’s assume that discovering music is a poor incentive for fans to listen and review your songs within a song contest context. Perhaps you can reward fans with something else? Free downloads? More plausible but, again, there are better ways to get the music you want (and don’t know that you want yet) now and free. Maybe you put the voter in the A&R seat like Sellband.com or TheNextBigSound.com but then you are leveraging part of your operating expense to the fans… One way or another, someone has got to pay something to make this work. It doesn’t have to be the songwriter but even a non-profit organization must pay its staff to raise money so they can finance their cause. Perhaps you can run this idea on donations and volunteers? Look at Wikipedia’s scope albeit a massively intricate and expensive undertaking.

The biggest problem with this idea is that you can’t provide quality music all of the time to the voter, the very person who will attract your sponsor or donor. Given today’s online media offerings, why sit and listen to sub-standard music hoping to “randomly” land on a rare gem? We’re past this. Even if every song entered is great (I assure you that this will not be the case), how many songs are you willing to sit through? Why and to what end?

The contest voter must come first and foremost. It doesn’t matter who wins. It matters who listens and how many listen. What can songwriters provide that will differentiate from other online experiences? A lot, I’m sure, but I can’t quite put my finger on it… maybe if the songwriter pays for the privilege, the money can go toward marketing the site. If your songs are great, more people will listen and you’ll get lots of mileage out of your entry fee. If they’re not, you won’t so much. Dunno…

GGood Idea, Also, what runs throu my mind is a song writing chat room to include two to twenty-five comunication. There are programs out there that will allow you to use your recording studeo to exchange creative ideas, and if you want to even coach someone.

A great and fair idea , Derek !

I like this idea a lot. I'm realistic enough to know that I don't decide if my songs are any good or not. It's others who do that. We just put them up there for others to decide. Perhaps I've already written my best song (and it's not the one I'm thinking of !) Yes, let's go for it.

Best Wishes,

John.zhonray

I love the idea and would gladly participate.

I am reading some of the comments here. It would be a huge endeavor.

For me, if I got nothing but honest feedback on the song I submitted I would be happy. If I were a "winner" it would be something to put on my website accomplishments.

A concern I would have is genre selection for the voter/judge. Someone who loves rock N roll wouldn't give the greatest critique to an easy listening song. If there were a way to get listeners to hear music in a genre they like, it may be better all the way around.

I wouldn't mind allowing a single download of my song to someone who is willing to critique with some substantial comments - at that point, after they commented, they could get the free download and that would be their gift/incentive (if they want it - some may choose not to take it) and at that point, maybe I would tell the person who they voted on & reference that person's website (potential new fans for the writer/artist submitting). Since the selection to hear would be random to the voter, this would keep from repetitive voting or telling friends to vote for a specific song. This would have to be with some sort of control, specifically stated for personal, non-commercial use as a gift, not for copy, resale, etc.

Actually, I am reading a comment here above me that makes a similar suggestion. However, I am thinking a voter/judge rating 100 songs might be too much to ask one person & could be extremely time consuming.

Inviting some potential buyers of music (ad agencies, music libraries, etc) to vote, would also add a component & create possible income for the writer/artist.

RE: "junk" - getting poor quality recordings or songs - not everyone has the capability to prepare a great recording. Someone's "junk" may be another person's treasure. I find there is quite a variety on CD Baby for instance - some of the quality is very good, some is poor. Anyone can create a music CD to sell. However, submitters would get commentary. That could help the person grow to write/perform better.

So, is part of the voting based on the quality of the recording itself? Perhaps the voting could have some multiple choice questions including: "How do you rate the recording", "How do you rate the music", "How do you rate the lyrics", etc. Number 1-10 (10 highest) and then, mandatory commentary What do you like, dislike? Do you relate to the song & why? etc.

For me, the winning itself would not be my entire incentive. I have some good songs & I continue to write. I may not have time, finances, or technical knowledge to studio record (even at home) every one of them, or prepare the best by a given deadline. Anyone getting critique would be getting something valuable for their time even if they didn't win a contest.

Thanks for coming up with these ideas. I love to hear about these ideas. Let me know if you get the contest up and running.

I think this is a great idea. www.ourstage.com is already doing something very similar but I think there needs to be more stuff out there. I personally think that there should not be a limit on songs entered, one per category seems ok but sometimes other people love the songs that you don't neccessarily consider to be your best.

-Amanda Richards

www.amandarichards.net

Bohemian Country Songstress

This is a great idea.

It is far to easy to cheat any website voting system.

When it is made more difficult to prevent cheating, then people shun from participating as they don't want to give up personal information.

I wish people didn't WANT to WIN anything from the music they make. Bob Dillon didn't care, he just loved to write and perform songs.

Brandon Rice

Count me in... Thanks!!

Fabulous idea! Wish it was mine and had the connections you have!!!

It's a good idea Derek, however I think the nuts and bolts may take a bit more work....I think it will put a bit more work on you and your team but it would be great and move you into other music ideas.

Stay in touch....

Norman

OK ..I'M LUKO ADJAFFI

TO YOU ALL MUSICIANS ..THE FOUNDER

OF CD BABY ..DEREK SIVERS IS A BRAIN GENIEUS GENIS GRAND MIND...

ANY THING OR ADVICE IN MUSIC FROM HIM ,I'M IN IT ....

LUKO ADJAFFI

Another song writing contest? And free? Why? The U.S. has over 300 million people. Of that, 286 million think they are musicians and/or songwriters. (Just check out myspace, You Tube, American Idol, et al.) But, of those 286 million who think they're musicians & songwriters, only about 3 or 4 are "good enough" to actually make a living at it. They are: Madonna, Britney Spears, some guy named after round colored chocolate candy with "M's," and Paris Hilton.....oh wait....Paris Hilton isn't a musician, she's just a "songwriter." What we have is a glut of music, and the best stuff is coming from the musicians/songwriters nobody knows - lost among the 286 million. Music shouldn't be competitive. All any songwriting contest accomplishes is reinforcing the fragile egos and pipe dreams of the wannabes. Those who are successful are because they commit to it and work hard at developing their craft. If they can make a decent living doing what they enjoy doing, it is because of that work...plus a little luck. There are millions of good songwriters and musicians who merely do it for the people on "their block." THAT's music!

Absolutely great idea! Simple and efficient. Win win. Maybe add some industry people(marketing,management, etc. to the "listening group"? I'm ready! Next?

Derek,

Sounds like a great idea. Thank you for trying to help keep songwriters from being exploited as they seek constructive feedback

a huge organizing challenge with the ?# genres (I'm assuming you want people to listen to/judge songs in genres they like & have winners 'within' those, & maybe a miscl category? -who would decide genre?-submitter, or site?)

Also assume there would be a powerful (legal?) pentalty to prevent people from downloading these songs from this site (assume entire song would be uploaded to vote fairly, vs. portion of songs)?

Double blind anonymity is also great idea, may be hard to control if people(fans) know a friend's / fave songwriter's song title / melody. They may recognize it in the line ups (without any names). Also, if people have a few different E-mail addresses, they may be able to vote more than once?

Just some thoughts trying to prevent mis-use of a great idea!

Awesome idea...would love 2 be a part of it...Keep up the great work Derek....Keep Rockin...Z

Its a wonderful idea to have a scam free songwriting contest where the judging is based on pure appreciation of the music alone. The idea is great but the website might be overwhelmed by tens of thousands of musicians who will only be too happy to enter for free. So the question is how time frames will be applied to choose winners if there is a universal response that is huge. Judging by the link to Just Plain Folks, it seems they are so swamped by the number of entries that they can only do their awards every two years. In 2006 they received 25,500 albums and 350,000 songs in over 80 genres of music from over 100 countries around the world. They expect entries in 2008 to more than double. If the long wait is no problem then its ok, still its better than been ripped-off by scamming song contests.

Derek~musicians are so lucky to have you! I love this idea! The anonymity is a super idea and the fact that many businesses would donate prizes means a win/win situation for all. Artists win prizes and recognition and businesses win with great advertising.

You are brilliant! Thanks for being you.

Wonderful idea, especially the double-blind anonymous part.

You keep using your brain, and we'll keep reaping the benefits! :)

I wholeheartedly endorse this concept. Many of us cannot afford 30 dollars a song for the privilege of entering a contest. Thank you in advance for moving this great idea forward.

Setting up a song writing contest that is free of sponsor or organizer influence is a great idea. I will support you in this effort if there is anything I can do as well as submit some new works. It seems to me that the first thing is to do what you are doing - trying to generate interest. With enough takers, sponsors will step up. If sponsors don't step up, lets self-fund, offer nothing more than a letter and a powerful "atta-boy or girl", and sit down to refine the process and prepare for next year. Sponsors will come once they see people getting excited. I have two associates to recommend for the website work who might contribute their time for the first time around. Here are some folks who might also help out:

Ginna Davies - website designer at www.petitfigtree.com

Jim Birdsong - website designer at www.texas180.net

Tammy Lynn - artist

Lolly wildharbor - artist

I think this is a great idea!

I think its a great idea and here is a key requirement to make it work: A new song posted should get the same chance to be listened to, as a song already voted as a favorite by many.

I remember when Radiohead had a site and a remix contest for one of their songs, it was a waste of time to submit anything if you were not among the first bunch. Songs were listed based on votes. How many people would scroll down 20 pages to listen to or vote on a new post, compared to trying the few on the top?

So how songs will be presented to voters would be very key.

Derek, I just fell a little more in love with you...

I did not have time to read all of the comments, so if I repeat something already said, my apologies.

I LOVE THIS IDEA.

1. DO IT. It would be the first song contest I'd entered in years.

2. To those who ask "why contests?" Prizes. I can't afford to go buy a new guitar (or recording software, subscription to TAXI, etc., etc.), but if I won one I'd be psyched. And the added exposure is great if you win or place.

3. I like the idea of voting by review, and also by length of listens--as one commenter suggested. I guess whatever keeps it easiest for the voters, or whatever is easiest on the set-up end.

4. Yes--prizes for the voters. Can be as simple as passes to a movie. I'd do it for that. If after voting I was brought to a page where I could print out a coupon for something free (or heavily discounted), that didn't expire within a week or a month, I'd totally do it. I mean--I'd do it ANYWAY, but other people would do it for that, I would think.

5. DO IT!

xoxoxoxoxo

That would be very, very cool!

Count Me In!!

Hello Derek, sorry to comment so late, I was actually in Portland for a show! What occurs to me about this concept is why does it have to be finite? Could prizes be awarded weekly to writers who upload good songs and receive the most votes (I like comment #40) Thereby creating a constant stream of fresh songs and a massive community of writers. It's like what I do for the Songwriter Showcase, www.songwriter-showcase.com there is a low level of "competition" but it is shared by support and community. Productivity is high as a constant as well as collaboration, where people grow as writers by leaps and bounds. Wouldn't this also multiply the site's traffic many times over? I like the idea, songwriting contests are a scam. We talked a lot about it during our festival concerning sponsorship from Broadjam. Take care, Adam M

Hi Derek.

You have done so many good thinks for musicians, and this idea of yours will make so many people happy!

There will always be somebody with negative comments about any idea. I think that you should do it as long as you feel good about it, and I’m sure that most of songwriters, including people, who like the word “but”, will happily place their songs on your website.

Good luck!!!

P.S.: check www.stereofame.com - it may be interesting for you…

Great idea. The only thing that would make it even better is if the winning song(s) could be submitted to the industry for consideration (Nashville publishers, licensing deals, etc.).

That's an awesome idea. It sounds beneficial from every angle. From the critiques to the prizes to the "grass-roots" feel...I likes! Things are always more beautiful when profit isn't the sacred goal.

I have become pretty skeptical of song contest and no matter how you do it, if it's open to public voting,there is potential for ballet stuffing. The problem I see with industry types is they already have wrapped their head around what they think will work so we get writers writing to a formula that was flawed to begin with. Derek, your ideas are usually good and I am sure you can work out the details, if anyone can make this work you can.

very cool idea...

I've been in song contests over the years, and can't remember one that was totally 100% honest. Maybe they start out honest, but favouritism greed backbiting and the dreaded audience vote made me give it up. But your idea is a great one, if you're going to set it up best of luck, Michael

Yes of course I love your ideas...this is wonderful...blessings...

i'm game. sounds like a productive idea no matter what the artist's goals . . . i say make it happen.

Great idea Derek, your input is always appreciated. So many contests and the music industry in general is still geared toward music that is "commercially" acceptable. Good music in any genre is good music even if you can't box it on. You've got your work cut out for you.

Thanks Derek

Great concept, Derek. The whole musicbusiness from A to Z should be organized in such a way that there are no middlemen taking too much money. I opened an account on Sonicbids and was very astonished that they take not only the subscription fee but 10 to 15 USD on every submission. Too many greedy guys everywhere taking the musician's money!

Your ideas are so great. My compliments for all these initiatives. Count me in.

Hey Derek I read your posting and also a lot of the comments others left. None that I read mentioned www.ourstage.com it is the best song contest that I have found and even at that there are still problems with genres. If you have not already heard of ourstage check it out. I think you will like what they are doing.

Thanks for all the tips you give us, JFK

This is good for pop music, meaning popular; but not for true absolute beauty.

If and when you do this, please make sure there is a wide range of categories...like Children's Music and Holiday songs!

Just hit us up when it's time...we're waiting

Great idea

Derek,

This is a really good idea. Especially, the idea of no entrance fees and double-blind judging. However, I don't really believe in the "Wisdom of the Crowds." Look where that wisdom got us these past eight years. I do believe an aggregate of musicians, singers and songwriters--all of different genres--would be your best bet for choosing judges. A really good song transcends any one style.

It's a great idea, and I wish you luck with it. Given that I sing and don't write, I, one day, look forward to a singer's contest run by you. Good luck!

I love this idea! .....sorry it took so long to answer. I am one of the judges with 'just plain folks' and I am having a blast listening to all the different female singer/songwriters! I like their criteria (at least in this 2nd round)......."does it move you"....keeps it simple!

This is wonderful!!

Hey Derek, Great Ideal!! For me just having people give their honest opinions good or bad about the songs,the melody,how the song flows,etc,I think would be a GREAT help to all of us indie musicians.I would submit one and be glad to give my opinion on a few songs. Thanks Derek for continueing to think about the strugging musicians. Tommy Baize

Great idea!!! We agree to this

Yes, Derek that's a wonderful idea! I'm sure corporate sponsers would be willing and able to cover costs of prizes as well as maintaining a song contest. It's a great idea. One thing that this blog proves: there certainly are a lot of songwriters out there! Why don't we boycott all those $30 entry fee song contests? Who needs 'em?

This is a great idea Derek - please do it!

Right on, brother. I admire your true spirit.

some of the best songs hve not been written- its to do with preparation and potential.The best songs or famous hve that title ie "diamonds r forever" , mamas and papas "all the trees are.."mainstream-you know what i mean.The more suppressed an idea the more unrefined and sci fi or soul full it becomes or develops. music or songs-the pop song or the lengthier story telling angle. The latter one does not bore as the style, melodies are strectched out.One can see a song inside a song, like a virus so it is already writing itself , growing and branching out to grew either as a short piece or an album.

Great idea I like having songwriters

being critics

Kevin Kull

Great concept. FAWM.org (February Album Writing Month) sort of does this, but the prize is that you've written songs and also there is a participant compilation CD that participants can submite to and vote on in the blind fashion

described in your proposal.

Burr Settles designed and programmed FAWM & the 50/90 challenge. You might want to brainstorm with him, Derek.

http://fawm.org/

http://burrsettles.com/

Great idea! Derek you are always thinking of ways to promote Indie artists and their music!

I would like to take this opportunity to thank the folks at JPF Music Awards for all their work and efforts to conduct a fair competition.

I would never have dreamed that my band JALEBI Music's song "Radha Govinda Kirtan" even had a chance to be selected out of thousands of entries BUT it was indeed selected and it is now a nominee for the 2009 JPF Music Awards for the Best Indian Song 2009 Award. The big show and JPF Music Awards ceremony is tomorrow 29 Aug 2009 in Nashville, Tennessee! We are keeping our fingers crossed! : )

Kudos to the JPF Music Awards! Keep on rockin!

Hare Krsna! Namaste, baby!n : )

JALEBI
-Shirley Marie Bradby (MiraBai Devi Dasi)
-Ramananda Roy das
-Yasoda Nanda das

DUDE! You should totally do this! :)

Great idea.

In the last five years I've been selected as a finalist at Kerrville, Telluride and twice at Suwannee SpringFest. Each time I submitted, I knew that whether I placed or didn't place that it was all quite arbitrary.

The opinions of three people who may or may not be qualified to judge are just that, opinions. I did it so I could put it on the resume, not because I thought it made a bit of difference on my worth as a songwriter.

I'd rather here from the masses than a few select insiders.

I'm not even a musician and I think it's an excellent idea.

That's what I'm lookin for !!!!
That's how I found you...:)

Love the idea and the spirit of this for all those of us who do pay money for entering contests. This is a breath of fresh air!

Songwriting contests that require an huge entry fee, that give prizes to a few winners are indeed scams, but not all songwriting contests (or websites promoting musicians) that require a fee are, some really care about organising something helpful for artists, and have so much fees and work around that they have to require a fee.

Something free would be perfect indeed, but hosting millions of thousand of songs would be so expensive that I don't think that sponsors and/or donations would be enough for it and pay the work of the organisers.
Agreed! Many fee-based musician services are great. But there are services like Soundcloud which take care of all the audio uploading, reviewing, and streaming, all for €20/month, which I don't mind paying. — Derek

If there is any chance that i can help you to get the idea started!Im here to help as much as i can!
Greetings from Sarajevo!
rijan

I just started up a songwriting contest website. It's free.

The idea is really simple. We make the music and the contestants come to the site to listen to the tracks. If it sparks an interest they can submit an original vocal track. Three of the best will be chosen, a 30 second clip of their song will be produced, and they are up for voting. The contestant with the most votes gets their vocals produced onto the track ,full rights to the music, and a showcase on our website. Then onto the next week!

Check us out at www.heartmyownsong.com.

As I understand it, this will be for songwriters that have recorded their songs or had a demo singer sing it?

I have translated several songs (singable high quality translations from Swedish and Finnish to English) and for some of them I have the original language versions from YouTube etc. but I haven't recorded them yet... is there a way to enter those into the contest? See my website http://monica-anderson.com

Otherwise I'll have to either take the time to record them or find someone willing to do it for me :-)

- Monica Anderson

Derek!

Idea on divisions: Sub-categories within standard music categories (rock, folk, etc.) for commercial and non –commercial, like your number 1 and 2 in this entry - sive.rs/starving-artist

Personally most of my favorite music is not a huge commercial success, and I’d like to hear more!

Also, web sites like “Slice the Pie”, tell and encourage reviewers to only give high scores if the music sounds like it would be commercially successful. I’ve had quite a few reviews there where the reviewer say, “I LOVE the song but I don’t think it will sell.”, and then get a low score.

I think having separate sub-categories would encourage reviewers to listen from different perspectives.

Thanks party boss!

-Matt

I totally agree
Totalmente de acuerdo

I love your mind.

im way to dirt shit poor to enter in contests i would love a free contest if you find one tell me

love

Please let me know if you get this up and running. I would love to be a part of it. There is very little out there on offer for the amatuer composer (that's free anyway) and the idea of entering something that would give me a chance of maybe winning something and having recognition for my efforts is very appealing!
I compose mainly 'Classical/Cinematic' music, so I'm hoping that you will be including genres that will include things like this?
I wish you every success in getting this going.

I thought of doing a site to allow U.S youth orchestras to compete like their athletic counterparts (everyone in a good youth orchestra thinks theirs is the best in the country), and your proposal solves some of the problems I hadn't, such as ballot-box stuffing. Architecturally, the problems are really similar. This would be so fun (either project)!

Hi Derek, I love the idea. I'm a research professor in psychology and analyze patterns in all sorts of real-world data related to behavior/psychology and conduct experiments too. I also write songs and have been thinking about how to merge research and data analysis with songwriting. This is probably getting ahead of things, but might you be open to sharing the data in the service of mining it for patterns that could tell us something about music? -- about what song characteristics resonate with people, how particular emotional responses match up with particular characteristics, how particular kinds of critiques may match up with particular types of music or musician experience, etc.

Interesting findings and patterns could end up in a blog on the site? I'd be fun to be a part of this.

Andy

Great idea! I've only found this now, so what's the progress with this project?

Hello,
I find it to be an excellent idea, because even if one doesn´t win, the comments are a learning experience. That, in itself is invaluable to someone such as I who has completed the music for a CD and now has to idea where to go or what to do because everything is confusing, particularly for a non-technical person in the jazz genre.
Do it!! I look forward to availing myself of the service. Also, if you need any kind of help, including cleaning, I would move to Belgium from Berlin, Germany and work for you. I want change! Thank you for reading. Miriam Kaul /saxophonist.

Hi,
I can´t figure out where to register a tune....? Sorry, I am not so computer gifted. Thank you. Miriam

Why would it have to totally free? You'd need some money to keep the site going, pay staff, etc... Would the companies giving the prizes pay for the right to place ads?
How about a really affordable model like say $1. per song entered? This might discourage less serious people dumping lots of songs, but could add complications to your fairly simple (terrific!) idea. Hmmmm....
No staff. And I run my own server, so no costs to keep the site going, really. There are other sites (like musicthoughts.com and sive.rs)">sive.rs/">sive.rs) that I do for free, so I'm happy to do another. — Derek

I'd be interested in entered your song competition when it goes live. Thanks.

Fabulous! So many want to be heard and so many have different talents. You never cease to amaze me. More than anything your kind soul and generosity of others. You always respond to emails. It's always about others for you. One day I want to meet you in person just to say Thank you and shake your hand. I often wonder what it is that someone could do for you? This idea is incredible!! I'm not a person with big words or a lot of genius. Just me saying Thank you!!

Could be a good place for artist to look for songs to record.

Instead of talking about it, I'll just provide a link to my own favorite song of mine. Readers may listen...or not!

SONNET 145
youtu.be/RxIxob0eAiA

it is a nice thought!

Hi Derek,

I just read your book and it resonated hugely with me. I'm running a small business, and writing songs on the side. I came here from your 'now' page, which now seems like its not now, but seven years old. I currently subscribe to songtown.com which has this service. They combine it with professional critique - kinda works ok. Maybe points are earned with each critique given, to motivate people to critique songs.

Thanks for your book, its helping a lot with my decision making and clarity.

Ben
Cool! Songtown looks good. I hadn't heard of it. — Derek

This contest is an excellent idea Derek! I would love to help line up some sponsors for this and it really sounds like a very fair opportunity for all involved. Musicians will drool over the prizes and gain exposure for their tunes, all for free. Way to go Derek. This idea is a total winner!

Trey :)
WhiskeyChild.com

I started to implement the prototype of the songtest. If you want to help (test it, suggest new features, translate it) please go to

http://www.altruix.cc/songtest/

There you can subscribe to a mailing list. Immediately after confirming your address you'll receive an e-mail with the current status of the prototype.

I want to use that mailing list to inform all interested people about new bugfixes and implemented features (once per week max.). There won't be any advertising in this list -- just questions like "what do you want me to implement?" plus progress reports.

This is a brilliant idea! Competitions are always too expensive when you are not guaranteed that you'll win anything.

That’s a Great Idea!! The song should be judged based on its merits without paying someone $50 or more just to say they’ve listened to it without really ever knowing if they did or not. You can count me in for sure

Great idea~
I really appreciate your way of thinking...
There is so much talent in this world..but many are just unknown.
Well,my question is-
I only write songs and albums..is there any spot for writers like me??~

I have two links to provide for music samples:

The first is an EP. I think you would like Ole Man's Ranch and Alchemy.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=ST7B9Qyzm9g

I'm open to your feedback. Thank you

The second is a link to my SoundCloud. I think "Stale Cigs" (Stale Cigarettes) is my favorite. But I also think you'll enjoy Everyone's Famous.

Bless Fam,

Brett

A lyrics category should be a must.

I’m wondering (all these years later) did you ever make this? The idea has merit even now, in my opinion.

Thanks, as always.
I didn't (yet), but thanks! — Derek