Derek Sivers

3 Books

host: Neil Pasricha

my top three books

episode web page

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Transcript:

Neil

Oh, hey. How are you? How are you guys doing? Hey. Three bookers. Hey, cover to cover. Club members. Hey, new people, if you're new. Welcome. Welcome in. Have a seat on the couch. Plug your headphones in for the dishes. Strap in for the long car ride wherever you feel like chillin for a bit and having a conversation. We're super happy to have you as part of this. Three books 333 chapter 1000 book over almost 15 year long conversation that I am having with all of you from my late 30s to my early 50s. I love when three books send me notes and they're like, I was 26 when I started listening to three books. I realized I will be 41 when I am done. Or people say, like, I hope I make it to my 90s. I'm like, looking forward to getting there and getting to number one. Well, for all of you out there that are part of this pilgrimage, well, what a joy it has been. I mean, what a joy. Here we are in November. It's November already, and think about the conversations we've had this year already. We've we've talked to Quentin Tarantino. We've talked to Shirley, the nurse. Remember, in the gas station. How fun was that? Did you like Zafar. Did you fall in love with Zafar, the hamburger man like I did? How about Brené Brown, Adam Grant, George Saunders, Dave Eggers, Douglas Rushkoff, Jenny Lawson.

Neil

Oh my gosh, this has been a wonderful year. And it's not over. In fact, it's getting better and better and better because today I have someone on the show for all of you who Tim Ferriss describes as a philosopher, operator and poet recluse of the highest order. Very apt to description who is this Derek Sivers guy if you haven't heard of him? He is a guy who's given three TEDx talks. Okay, if you go to TED.com, you check it out like 8 or 9 million views for these tiny, pithy three minute Ted talks. So, interestingly, that I actually used them when I was in charge of learning and development at Walmart. I used his Ted talks as part of our official training because he has this principle called the first follower, and how it's more important than a leader to have somebody who follows you. And it's a wonderful introduction to leadership 101. Presented in a three minute Ted talk. But this distilling things down into their most vital components to communicate them. Maybe that's what Derek's all about. His website, Sivers org, is like a minimalist, reductionist website that's from like 1997. It looks like Amazon before they launched graphics on the page. Yet it's completely functional and totally fast.

Neil

And it's where he sells all his books. Yes, he has many books. He writes them basically, and self publishes them on his website. They end up selling thousands and thousands and thousands of copies. But he doesn't really care about going through big publishers. He doesn't really care about them being available on Amazon. I'm holding his yellow linen hardcover book, Hell Yeah or No. What's worth doing in my hand? It's in my book club this month because it's a wonderful book exploring tiny little morsels of wisdom in simple ways. Okay, the cover being a bit big. Defining principle. The book. If you do not say hell yeah to that offer coming in, you should say no. Everything's either hell yeah or no. His brand new book is called How to Live, and he's written two other books called Your Music and People and Anything You Want, and he only sells them on his website. Like I said, surfers of the org. If you aren't convinced that you should buy them below every book are like thousands of positive reviews. I can't recommend this guy's books enough. Sometimes I wish I could write as pithy and short and wise as Derek, and a good example of that is in my most recent book, You Are Awesome. I was looking for a way to open up the book, have an introduction, and I came across this Taoist fable online called The Farmer with One Horse.

Neil

You know, the one that goes, A farmer had only one horse. One day his horse ran away. His neighbor said, I'm so sorry this is such bad news. You must be so upset. And the man just said, we'll see. And through all these endless ups and downs in life that God's just like we'll see, breaks his legs. We'll see. Everyone gets called off to war except this guy. We'll see. And guess who this 2000 year old dad was. Fable is written in it's short and most reductionist form by Derek Sivers. So I asked Derek if I could use his fable. Basically, he's rewritten in the cover and the opening of my book and he said, yes, he's a giver. Why is he giving so much? What is? He posts his personal email address, answer every email, write these wise blog posts like, what's behind all this? Well, I ask him that he has a really honest answer and part of what I'm drawn to and a lot of people are drawn to, is his honesty. He says. It helps make $1 million first, it's in the 90s. He started up a company called CDBaby, which kind of came before the revolution, but after the internet revolution.

Neil

So he caught the first tailwinds of like a company that was making millions of dollars a year and that he fully owned. He sold the company, but he wasn't motivated by money. So he lives around the world. He thinks of himself as a global citizen, just him and his son. Right now they live in New Zealand after living in Portugal, after living in Oxford, he lives kind of of the world and he basically talks about himself as of the world. But he's living in New Zealand now. How do I know he's living in New Zealand now? Because another thing Derek pioneered on the internet is a now page. If you go to cyberstalking now, guess what? It tells you what he's doing now. It tells you that he's shipping his new book, tells you that he's living in New Zealand, tells you he's changing code, tells you what he's reading. Why is he post this? Because he doesn't think any other place in the internet. Certainly not. Social media and big personal websites answer. The question that everybody wants to know is what are you up to? So this is a page that now people like Austin Kleon and many people are posting on their own blog. Derek Sivers is one of the most innovative thinkers imaginable. So buckle up, take a back seat and let's listen to him share a lot of wisdom for us today, including things like why you should rename the rooms of your house, why you should aspire to read slow instead of reading fast.

Neil

Why? It is more important to question answers than to answer questions. What is the game of catch that is played between readers and writers? What can we learn from the original OG grandfather of the self-help movement? How do we learn to distill big thoughts into small words, which you are going to hear like a live example of Derek doing? This is something I personally need help on, as you can tell by listening to my long introductions and my long questions. But I'm working on it, people. How can we thrive in an unknowable future? How do we prepare for death and financial insecurity? When shouldn't we try to remember people's names? What is the slightly counterintuitive purpose of any conference you actually go to in person, which is becoming huge again as live events get off the ground? Why should we consider changing jobs every couple of years? What would you have talking parrots say in a utopia? And of course, what are the eminent Derek Sivers three most formative books? Are you ready, everybody? Happy new moon, chapter 90. Let's turn the page now. Okay, I just pressed record. Hi, Derek.

Derek Sivers

Hey, Neil.

Neil

Uh, greetings from Toronto, Canada. Where it is bright. It is sunny. I am in an upstairs. I want to call it a spare bedroom, but that would be a disservice to the amount of utility this room actually has, which is a bookshelf. It is a storage room. It is my office right now. It is everything. It's an everything room. It's got like everything in our house, in it, including a bed. So if an in-law does happen to come, they would sleep in this room surrounded by boxes.

Derek Sivers

You know, names matter. When I moved into this house in Oxford, England, a year ago today, I looked at the big room that most people would call the living room. But I don't do that thing that a lot of people do where they sit on couches and watch shows. I don't do that. I don't like watching things. So the whole idea of a living room, you know, so I had to kind of do a little soul searching, like, what's what? What would my dream home be focused around? And it would be focused around making things. And I've got an eight year old son who loves making things, and I love making things, whether it's digital things or article things or, you know, programming things or Lego things. I love making things. So the biggest room in the house, the main central room that I'm looking at right here, um, we renamed it it is not the living room, it's the making room.

Neil

Oh, I love that.

Derek Sivers

With three big, uh, six foot long tables that are just covered in Lego and building materials. And on mine is like my, um, you know, computer with the microphone and this and that. And, um, that's the making room. So my son and I are in there, uh, most waking hours, making things all day. And then there's one tiny little room that. Yeah, you're right. Could be called the spare bedroom, the unused room, but it's very small. So that room is empty, except for one little desk that looks out the window. And that is the focus room.

Neil

Oh, cool.

Derek Sivers

Names matter. So you go in the room to be making things, and when you need to focus, you go into the focus room.

Neil

I love that. And you're in Oxford, England, right? Like one of these cities around the world that's known for its being smart. Like how many cities? I mean, I, I lived in Cambridge, Massachusetts for two years over ten years ago. And like, they have their own magazine called 02138, named after the postal code or the zip code in town. I'm like, yeah, they're declaring themselves. So you're in like this super smart city. You have a making a making room and a focus room. And in your making room. Derek. Question for you because my wife and I kind of differ on this. Is it at the end of the night? Does that room need to be like sort of cleaned up in any way? Are you like, put things back in their spots or is part of what makes a making room a making room for you to like splatter effect of everything. Everywhere for stimulation. Like tell me where you are on that spectrum.

Derek Sivers

Right. So that's the rule is anything that's on the making tables and like I said, there are three of them does not need to be cleaned up. Anything on the floor does. So that's the rule. That's how I get him to keep his stuff on the making table instead of, you know, getting on the floor to make his Lego. I'm like, well, you could build it there, but then you're going to have to clean it all up. And he goes, oh, right. And gets back to the making table.

Neil

So speaking I love that's a great delineation. Table can be messy floor. It has to be clean. My wife came up with the best parenting hack ever on Lego by the way, which is in the giant plastic Rubbermaid thing or Tupperware thing that she has a Lego and she made. I think another mom told her this. She has like a little thin blanket, and then she dumped all the Lego in and then wrapped up the top of the blanket. So what she does is she takes it out like like a Santa Claus sack, opens it up. The whole thing is then orchestrated, and then the way it ends is like, she literally grabs all four corners and dumps it back in the Rubbermaid. Out your own Lego floor. Yeah, what better way to start a conversation that's going to loosely be about books? But of course, three books is about the biggest themes in the world, kind of using reading as our as our tentpole. Um, then using three of your own quotes that you have given over the years about books. If you have a reflection, you know, the challenge of being virtual. Obviously, you know, three books is normally in person. It's like, I can't see you, but if you have a reflection or a comment you want to make on them, please jump in.

Neil

First one 2015 on The Tim Ferriss Show, you said I don't read fast And I don't try to read fast. I like to sit and ponder as I'm reading, when I'm committing to a book that's 20 or 30 hours often, so I don't take it lightly. This is my important pause to see if you have a reflection on that. I have a reflection on it, which is that not many people talk about reading slow on purpose.

Derek Sivers

Yeah, I guess not. It always blew my mind when people talk about speed reading. I'm like, wait, you've missed the whole point. That's like speed vacationing or something. It's like or speed sex. Like, there are things in life you're not aiming to get faster at. Why would you want to be faster at reading?

Neil

Yeah. And I guess, you know, for me, you know, I had this article go viral a few years ago called eight Ways to Read a Lot More Books this year, and it was talking about how I read 50 books one year instead of five. And a lot of the things weren't none of them were about speed. But there was like, you know, canceling cable, you know, put a bookshelf at your front door or stuff like that. And, um, making space for reading as an important practice was kind of the takeaway of the piece. Okay. Uh, your second quote comes from 2019 Don't Quit Your Day Job podcast, which I just talked about. You said sometimes I'm reading a book on something, and I think that the author has come up with a brilliant point, but I'm not satisfied to just echo that point. I have to ingest it and take it in and see what I think of it myself. Or I have an experience in life, and I try to find the common threads of something that just happened to me, to explain it to myself. I spend hours in my diary asking myself questions and then answering those questions and then most importantly, questioning my answers. So this, I think, leads into the incredible body of work you have put together at Sivers, the book where you have documented in a way, maybe you could tell our listeners how you think about this sort of codified codification, codification of your reading, which is, I think, an unusual way to a lot of people, but very, very important practice for you.

Derek Sivers

Hmm. Um, it goes through two stages. So first, when I'm reading a book, I underline or circle all the things that any sentence or idea in it that surprises me. So what you see on Sivers org slash book is not a summary of the book at all. I'm not aiming to make a summary in a way I actually don't care about the book. I only care about the ideas inside of it. That surprised me enough that I felt it needs more reflection on my part. Like, I want to think about that more. Like, I hear an interesting idea and I go, huh, I'm just going to circle this for now, and I want to think more about that later. Those are the ideas that I write down from the book, and I usually edit them a little bit to put it into my own words instead of just an absolutely verbatim quote. And then that's what you see shared on Sivers org slash book. Um, are just the ideas inside the book that I found the most interesting. And then I saved them as a text file for my own use. And in fact, I was doing this for years, just as private text files on my laptop. I would just every time I would read a book, I'd take all these notes. Um, if it was a paper book, I would type them into into a text file, and if it was on the Kindle, then I would plug in the USB and copy the my documents or my clippings, txt and edit that to get the quotes.

Derek Sivers

And then I would put it into the format I was happy with. The whole point is, I don't ever want to have to read that whole book again. I just want to reflect deeper on those ideas I found most interesting in the book. So, um, so that's what I do. When I was living in Singapore and I was sitting on subways and buses a lot, I would copy these, all these book notes to my phone and just at random times instead of surfing the web or something like that, I just go to my folder full of book notes, and I would just pick up one that I felt I was in the mood to reread my reflections on, and I'd pull up that, and I'm just going to stop and think about those interesting ideas. And then I quite often then will pull up my journal and ask myself, like, okay, here's an interesting quote from this book. What do I think of this? Is this true? Do I agree? Do I disagree? What does this imply? How do I feel about that? And I'll just kind of, you know, I'll just spend an hour and just think about it in writing, thinking out loud.

Neil

You know what an incredible, like personal growth practice that when you hear you talking about, I'm like, I should do this. You know, like I'm like, I should be doing this. How am I not? I kind of got this note card thing going for a while that I borrowed from Ryan Holiday. I do underline a lot. I do write notes, but I'm like this. You have come up with a system that is so profound, and you do this for fiction as well as nonfiction, right?

Derek Sivers

No, actually fiction I enjoy completely differently. Fiction. I usually do audiobook. Um, and I just listen when I'm walking or weightlifting or something else. Or falling asleep at night. Um, like right now, I just started listening to the audiobook of The Odyssey. The original Homer Odyssey. Um, the new Emily Wilson translation I hear is great. And so just began. And that is just pure pleasure. There will be no underlining or re pondering later. It's just like watching a movie. I just enjoy it. Um, I know it would be like a whole different level. I guess I could, you know, while watching a movie or reading a fiction book or even listening to an audiobook, I could stop and write down phrases I thought were interesting, but I'd rather just I'd rather just not. It's just a different state of mind, you know?

Neil

Um, this is interesting. Okay. So you're not. Yeah. So fiction is totally different. I didn't realize that you did that with fiction. And it kind of lends itself to the nonfiction at least lends itself to the third quote I pulled out about you, which is from org slash book. In fact, it's your notes on on a book called How to Read a Book, which you read in 2017 and gave a seven out of ten. And your note was the reader is the catcher in a game of baseball. Catching the ball is just as much an activity as pitching or hitting it.

Derek Sivers

I think that's an almost verbatim quote from the author, and I thought that was a fascinating idea, that the the book is not the be all, end all. It's the the beginning of a conversation. Or as he says, a game of catch between the writer and the reader, that this is a a collaboration in order to raise your understanding. Um, yeah, I like that idea a lot.

Neil

Um, Malcolm Gladwell on three books told me that a good book doesn't reveal itself to you on the first read, which is somewhat similar. Yeah. Just as the idea of a flower. Well, listen, Derek, thank you so much for giving us your three most formative books. I can't wait to dive into them with you. For each of them, I'll spend about 30s giving the reader just a little bit of an overview to try to picture that book as if they're like holding it in a bookstore. Um, and then I'll ask you to tell us about your relationship with it. And then I've got a few questions kind of following up from each. I'll see where it goes. Does that work for you?

Derek Sivers

Yes.

Neil

Okay, so the first book is How to Stop Worrying and Start Living by Dale Carnegie, published by Simon and Schuster in 1948. The cover is a giant big, italicized blue font with the title and the subtitle below it, which is Time Tested Methods for Conquering Worry with Dale Carnegie's name below and him listed, of course, is the bestselling author of How to Win Friends and Influence People. Dewey Decimal fans. You can file this under 158.1 for self-improvement. Over 6 million copies have been sold. Dale Carnegie lived from 1888 to 1955, and is often regarded as one of the godfathers of the entire self-help movement. So, Derek, tell us about your relationship with How to Stop Worrying and Start Living by Dale Carnegie.

Derek Sivers

I found it on my grandmother's bookshelf, and it just like at grandma's house, who I only saw her like a few days a year. Like we only went there for Christmas. And I look at her bookshelf and I'm like, huh? How to stop it? And I pick this up and it's like, you know, it's written in the 1930s or whatever. And it's just it sounds kind of archaic. It's written kind of old, but it was just an interesting idea. So I read it when I was 18 or 19. Um, found it interesting. And the reason I mentioned it, I didn't think it necessarily changed my life. But then at the age of what, 42? Uh, Tim Ferriss had talked about stoicism and stoicism, that everybody's talking about stoicism. And finally I went, okay, hold on. Let me just I generally don't sound I don't think I'm going to be interested in some ancient Greek thing. I don't get what the fetish is about this, but let me just go read this book called, um, stoic Joy A guide to the Good Life or something like that. So I read this book and oh my God, my jaw dropped. I was like, this is my approach to life. This is, oh my God, I thought I was the only weirdo that that thinks this way. This kind of like preparing yourself for a more difficult future.

Derek Sivers

Like, ever since I was a teenager, I've been living by this philosophy of bracing myself for a more difficult future and just kind of assuming the worst and preparing for that. And and, um. Oh my God, this is a philosophy. Holy crap, I was fascinated. I was like, this is wow, cool. I was like riveted. How cool that most of my quirky life beliefs align with some 2000 year old philosophy. This is so cool. Wow. I mean, I have no desire to, you know, subscribe to an ism, but how cool to hear some further thoughts on this subject, you know? Um, so so that was that. And I often wondered why, like, how did I, like, naturally stumble into this belief that aligns so well with stoicism? And it wasn't until years later, just like about a year ago, I think, that I don't remember where I saw this. I don't know if it was a Wikipedia page or something, but I think it said that the the beliefs in stoicism were, um, sometimes shared without calling it that, including books such as How to Stop Worrying and Start Living by Dale Carnegie. And I went, oh wow. And honestly, I haven't read it since I was 18 or 19. Even now, in fact, you know what with the whole Covid 1950 today. What? I'm 50 now. 50. Yeah.

Neil

I just want to give people a perspective of the timeline here.

Derek Sivers

Yeah. So in fact, I just a week ago, after you asked me to name my three most influential books, I thought, yeah, I guess I'm going to include that one in the list, even though I haven't read it since I was 18 or 19. I'm going to include that in the list. And you know what? I should reread it now because I didn't start taking notes on books like I described until I was 37. So I read hundreds of books before that that are just kind of gone from my memory since I wasn't taking notes. So yeah, I have it on my Kindle now. I'm going to reread How to Win. I mean, how to Stop Worrying and Start Living, but that's its importance to me is, I think it Unknowingly shaped the way that I see the world.

Neil

And came to you at such a formative age. And from your grandmother's bookshelf, which is like an incredible way to discover something, just to kind of pick it off somebody else's. You know, we do that now through the internet. You know, I can grab stuff off your your book list or somebody else's book list, but, you know, it's like a book shelf, really. And a big part of stoic philosophy or a way to stop worrying these days is just as you, as you pointed out, Derek, getting comfortable with discomfort, preparing for the worst. I noticed that in 2016, you put together this incredible list of directives over at your website, Sivers. Org slash to do the number two and then the word doe. And you even wrote out, you said, I spent the last few months of my life going through all my notes for 220 books. First, I extracted the most essential and counterintuitive points, and then I turned, which was difficult the observations into advice. You have this amazing kind of set of lessons that you have codified from all the books you've read under the headlines of How to Be Useful to Others, How to Get Rich, and the one that jumped out to me is how to thrive in an unknowable future. And I'm like, that's what this is. We are living in an unknowable future. So I've pulled out the six headlines that you have summarized it to. Um, how do we thrive in an unknown future? I wonder if either you want to give me your spitball on how do we thrive in the unknowable future? Or I could play back to you, kind of the six you wrote about back in 2016, and get your reflection or or your expansion on that.

Derek Sivers

I would love it if you could read them. I'd love to hear it again.

Neil

Yeah, yeah. I don't want to put you on. So here they are. Number one, prepare for the worst. Number two, expect disaster. Number three, own as little as possible. Number four. Choose opportunity, not loyalty. Number five. Choose the plan with the most options. And number six, avoid planning. The question is, how do we thrive in an unknowable future.

Derek Sivers

Right. I guess it's the biggest thing now, I believe, is to, instead of looking at the bright side, um, is to make peace with the worst. Like to think. To ask yourself to not say everything's going to be just fine. You know what? We're going to get through this quickly. Everything's going to be back to normal. Everything's going to be great. No. Instead, say, well, what's the worst that could happen? Um, the worst that can happen is I get kicked out of my home here because I can't afford the mortgage anymore. Or the rent or whatever it is. Um, I have to move in with, you know, somebody else I know and sleep in their guest bedroom in a little situation there that's uncomfortable to me. Um, and maybe I won't be able to get a job for a long time. I'm going to have to find a way to live on $500 a month or something like that. Let's see, that comes to $125 a week. Um, could I do that? Like, um, how would I do that? Could could I survive on that? Could I do that? And you start to really make this worst case scenario feel very real in your head. You say like, okay, let me play out this worst case. I mean, okay, let's first or you want to take it this direction, you say, well, worst case scenario, I die. You know, you need to make peace with that first. Maybe we need to start with the the end, um, and say like, all right, have you put a will into place? Have you, um, shared what you've learned or whatever your values say are the most important things to you? Have you told the people you love that you love them and all that? Like if somebody said like, hey, sorry, time's up, you're dying tomorrow. Um, you'd cry, you'd be upset, but could you be okay with that? And, um, yeah, come to peace with that first. Obviously it's not plan A, but, um. Yeah. Making peace with that, making peace with the idea.

Neil

Of it's pretty hard to do for a lot of people, I think. Yeah. I love the the sort of Seneca, you know, using the stoic philosopher, you know, is this the situation I so fear? You know, like living with less and trying to use memento mori and these ideas of putting, you know, skulls in your home or like, surrounding yourself with images of death so that you can connect deeper to it and, you know, but then you think like, ah, my parents are really old and I can't see them, and they're in that age range where if they if they get it, you know, they're going to I won't see it. So it's like, is there, is there things you do? I mean the will is a great example. Like the percent of people that actually have a will is very small. Right. But my wife and I did one and actually it gives us some peace of mind to know, like who might take care of our kids if we were to, you know, and things like that. It gives us a clear plan that takes time and money to work through. But then you get it. It's there. Things like that that you do in your life that help you be more comfortable with death.

Derek Sivers

Yeah, that's a great one. Um. Make your will. Um, or set things up in such a way, um, you know, create a living trust or something like that. Like, if you do have some savings and you want it to pass on to your kids, uh, just doing a little bit of research. A few hours of total work, including, say, like an hour of research and an hour with a lawyer and then an hour to to get some documents notarized and voila, you've got a living trust or something like that, that you can put your assets into the trust so that when you die, they easily, um, pass to who you want them to pass to instead of sitting in court, probate kind of stuff for a year. Um, there are just things like that that you can do. It's, you know, adulting. Let's not say adulting 101. That's adulting 201. Um, but, um, but then, Yeah. You know, it's funny. I'm a dear friend of mine once asked me about three years ago if I would write her eulogy now, and I did, and she found it really touching and cried. And, um, she said, I realized that that was the only thing I didn't have in place. Like, I've got my will. I've got my plans in place for what happens when I die. But I wanted you to write my eulogy. And so she's, like, completely prepared for this thing. She's even got the eulogy. I think she's picked out her her, uh.

Neil

The music for the funeral.

Derek Sivers

Right. Actually, you know what? I think that was a real example. Yeah, I think she has the music picked out or something, but, um, I don't know. I just really like this approach of just.

Neil

You know, it's going.

Derek Sivers

To happen. I mean, hopefully all of us die. I mean, I don't know, hopefully nobody turns into a zombie or a vampire. I wish you death eventually. Um.

Neil

That's interesting. That's already a great reframing. So you're saying like there's baby steps and like, we need to move forward in this idea of accepting that some cultures are better than this at others. My dad, you know, born in a poor family in Amritsar, India, is like he uses death in like the middle of a sentence in the middle of dinner, like nonchalantly. He's like, oh yeah, well, when I die, you know, you just. And it's like. And you know, people will be over and be like, what did you just say that? But he doesn't have a fear of it. It's closer to him, you know. And um, so you said so. So there's that grappling and accepting and kind of movement through death. But then what you were, you were also saying until I interrupted you was like, okay, now the situation, I got the $500 a month, I got the $125 per week. I might lose mine financially. Right? So now you now you get into that frame. Because the question really is getting comfort with the discomfort, right?

Derek Sivers

Because that's the next big scare. So of course yeah yeah yeah. We all know about death. So it's coming to terms or making peace with the idea that if you had to, there is probably somebody that you could move in with or pool resources with or, you know, the five of you get together and and share a home, a cheap place and whatever. And like, could I be okay with that? Like, it's not my plan A but what's really important to me. And so like for my own sake, I often just come down to this thing like, well, if I can still read and I can still write, um, and I still have, you know, maybe 900 calories a day to eat. I'm good. And ideally, if I can get outside in nature, then I'm really good. Like, that's really all I need in life. Um.

Neil

And so for such a successful entrepreneur, Derek, for years, you know, with CD, with CD, baby, is there a model or a paradigm or a mental tool you use to help people who are like trying to take a personal inventory around what they're good at or what skills they can lean into?

Derek Sivers

I wrote an article once that I think is, Um is underrepresented in the conversations on the subject, which is to separate what you love from what makes money, and to not try to always make money from the thing that you love, but perhaps just leave it as the untainted, unspoiled thing that you do for the love of it, without trying to, you know, whore it out to make money from it. And of course, you know my background. I know a lot of musicians. And so, um, I just found anecdotally that the happiest musicians I knew were the ones that were making were basically paying their cost of living, doing something else. So that music could be something that they just do it for the love of it, but they take it seriously. It's not just like, oh yeah, and every now and then I pick up a guitar and play it. It's like, no. They also take it seriously. Like, they put aside two hours a night just to play music. And they work towards a goal. In fact, they record an album's worth of material every year, and then they go through the the pain in the butt minutia of putting together an actual album and releasing it through the distribution channels or whatever, because that's important. That's taking it seriously instead of just, you know, tinkling on your guitar every now and then. Um, those people that do it that way are the happiest musicians I know.

Derek Sivers

And from that, I kind of extracted this, uh, guideline of separating, um, separating what makes you money from what you love doing instead of the usual advice. I just felt that everybody was saying is, well, just think about what you really love doing and then just do that and make some money from it. It's like, no, because, you know, there can be two different things. In fact, if you are separating them, well then now, just like you can let the artistic love of things be more heart driven instead of head driven. Like now, you don't need to be smart and say, well, how can I make money from this? No, you can stop saying that. But then on the other half of your life, you can actually just be kind of calculated and smart about what you're going to do to make money and just let go of this notion that it has to be your life's calling, or even it doesn't even have to be what defines you, but just be smart about it. So you'll see. Actually, on Sivers org slash balance, I posted a link to a chart that I think was from The Economist or something like that, where they, um, they did this kind of calculation of the. Oh, sorry. What was it? I can't do it off the top of my head, but something like I see.

Neil

It, I can see it. Jobs for which wages are both high and growing.

Derek Sivers

There you go. Wages are both high and growing. Mhm. That was a great.

Neil

The number one thing is physician's assistant, then occupational therapist, then financial managers.

Derek Sivers

Right. So just purely rationally these are the smartest fields to get into. You just look at the top five and you say, well which one sounds the least awful right.

Neil

Yes, exactly. Yeah. This is from Indeed.com and it was published in the Wall Street Journal from the Labor Department. Yeah. Jobs for which wages are both high and growing at the same time. Yeah. That's that's a phenomenal just like nice lens to think about. And I love that separation because you know, there's so much research on keeping things that are intrinsically motivated intrinsic. But the reason I don't have ads on three books right now is because I read this essay called The Nature of the Fun by David Foster Wallace. And he says, you know, when you start to commercialize everything you do. And I did this right at my writing, which was my blog for free, turned into books that were getting paid. My speeches that were speaking for free, turned into speeches that were making money. And I'm like, I'm doing everything for money now. So three books is like a little bastion for me, a little like secluded space where I just get to make stuff, to make stuff, and if it's good, it's because I just do it because I love it. Your blog similarly has no ads. You purposely you have this great quote where you say, um, in June 6th, 2009, you say, I love my computer and Kindle, but you won't hear me rave about them. I don't want you to want them. Companies spend a fortune begging you to want their stuff. I won't add to that noise. I would like to train parents to say it parrots, not parents to say it won't make you happy. I let them loose in shopping malls, big electronic stores and car lots. Then when people are considering spending their savings on a giant TV or going deeply in debt with a new car, a surprise squawk might shock them back to their senses.

Derek Sivers

Neil, do you know where that idea is from?

Neil

Is it from one of your three books?

Derek Sivers

It is from the next book on the list. Um. The parrots.

Neil

Okay, okay, okay. You want to do you want to transition now?

Derek Sivers

No. I'll just say quickly that the, uh, that in the book you're about to mention. Yes, there are parrots which were trained to say here and now or something like that, or attention or here and now. They trained the local parrots on the island to say this thing, to help people, to remember to be present. So go for it.

Neil

I, I'm so excited to transition. I have, you know, I wrote so this is like the how do you deal with this. You interview people and you know, it's like, I got this great question I wanted to ask you about the Dale Carnegie book. Should I just skip it? I probably oh no, no, no.

Derek Sivers

Let's do it.

Neil

You want to do it? Okay. So just like I just like I thought of it one night, I was like, I really wanted to ask Derek this. So here's the thing. And let's just do this question and then we can we can jump. I had a few a few in here, but I'll skip the others. Um, Dale Carnegie, this guy writes books that start with how to if he's pretty much known as the guy who founded the how to movement. Right. Did you realize, Derek, that eight of his books, eight of his books or booklets, he's written booklets as well. Start with that phrase, how to. Now, you are known for distilling wisdom books, epic pieces of content into. I didn't even mention all three of your Ted talks. Are the three minute variety like they're short Ted talks? Um, your your blog posts are often like 100 words, you know, like very similar to what Seth Godin Godin is putting out there. And so what I want to challenge you to do, Derek, is this little game I invented just for you, just for this chapter of three books I am going to give you all eight. One at a time. Titles of Dale Carnegie's How to books. Except instead of like a period at the end, I'm just going to insert a question mark. And using your ability to distill wisdom down, there's no time limit. It's not a speed thing. I just want you to give me, like, your one sentence answer on how to do the thing I'm about to ask you to do.

Derek Sivers

Okay. I'm dubious that I'll be able to do this, but I'll try.

Neil

It's okay. And there's no there's no rush. I just I just like your gut reaction. Okay. Um, how to remember names?

Derek Sivers

Uh, don't try unless the person really matters to you.

Neil

I love that.

Derek Sivers

Well, you have to ask. You have to ask yourself, does this person really matter to me? Or am I just being some kind of fake technique kind of person? Like be sincere. So if a person really matters to you, you'll remember their name. You know, you meet that like beautiful stranger that you think is like the most beautiful person you've ever seen. And you want to spend the rest of your life with that person. And as soon as that person says their name, you'll remember it. That person really matters to you.

Neil

Yeah, I'm the fake technique person. Like, I'm always like, if someone tells me their name, I'm always, like, trying to get it back in my brain for the rest of the conversation. So I love that. Don't try unless it matters to you, you know?

Derek Sivers

Great. I did that for years too. And then I just I moved into a neighborhood in New Zealand where I was actually kind of close with my neighbors. Like, it was just. It was like a little dead end cul de sac. And suddenly I've never been that neighborly kind of guy, but just the neighborhood set itself up for that. It's like suddenly I'm, like, all chummy with all of my neighbors, but I never learned any of their names. And I just realized, like, you know what? I don't need to like, that's my neighbor there. That's my neighbor there. And I don't think they know my name either. And that's cool. We know each other. Like names are artificial.

Neil

That's good. I love settling into a purposefully long term relationship with a not knowing each other names status like that is really. I love that I have that with, you know, a certain cashier at a bread store or whatever, but I love that. And the other thing I love, which is I guess a bit counterpoint to that is I like knowing someone for a long time, and I didn't then just say like, what's your name? Like, I just like, you know, like six months into the, into the relationship, sometimes I just throw it out there and I'm like, I'm Neil, what was your name? And then I feel like sometimes it's just better to be honest if you don't know their name or whatever. Okay. Right.

Derek Sivers

By the way, I'm looking out my window at some gorgeous trees that I don't know the name of, but I fully appreciate them.

Neil

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's good. Separating appreciation and, uh, like labeling.

Derek Sivers

Yeah. Yes. Labeling. Yeah. Okay. Number two.

Neil

Okay. Number two, how to save time and get better results in conferences.

Derek Sivers

Oh, God. I have a whole thing about that. My short answer is go to sive.rs/conferences because in fact, it's one of the longest articles I've ever written because I have so much to say on that subject. I attended so many conferences for so many years. I met so many hundreds of people. That I saw do it wrong. And if I were to just tell you one tiny thing, in short, it. Would be that real business doesn't happen at the conference. The conference is just where you make the initial greeting and everything happens in the follow up. So if you attend a conference and you don't follow up with the people you've met there, you've missed the whole point.

Neil

I love it, I love it, this is fantastic. Thank you. I also at the top of the article you wrote about servers and conferences, which we'll put in our show notes. Like with everything else we're mentioning, you reference the Dale Carnegie book. Okay. Number three, um, how to make I'm really interested in this one, especially for this podcast, how to make our listeners like us.

Derek Sivers

So I think it's if you say something that they find useful and applicable to their own life, um, that's what it's all about. I just assume anybody tuning in here, anybody giving this conversation their time, is looking to apply what they're learning to their own life. And so if sorry, we're doing lots of URLs today, but if you go to sive.rs. Org slash slow s l o w, you will see my where I admit that I'm a slow thinker, that I'm not the best. Kind of like, you know, quick reaction kind of guy. And so I admit in there that for a lot of my past podcast interviews, not not this one, actually, you didn't send me all of these questions in advance, but for many of the other public interviews I've done, I've asked the interviewer to send me the questions in advance, like a couple weeks in advance so I can really stop and think about them and put a few hours of thought into these questions before we hit record. But part of the reason I do that is because if you ask me a question, um. The most honest answer might not be the most useful one. So say, when Tim Ferriss asks me, like, if you could go back and tell your 20 year old self something. What? Yes. Right. So my personal honest answer might be really quirky and related only to my situation and not really useful to others. But I have talked to many, many, many, many, many 20 and 30 year olds in life. And I have an answer that's best for them. So I give the answer that's best for them because that's ultimately more considerate. And in my value system, being considerate and being useful is more important than being completely authentic and brutally honest. If it violates, you know, being useful and being considerate.

Neil

I love that, Derek, and thank you for your honesty in answering that. And, um, you know, I like so for me, as I've designed three books, I've made it very selfish. I'm only I don't accept any pitches for who can come on the show. I don't have anyone else reviewing who comes on the show other than it's people I find interesting. I only ask them questions I want to ask them I don't follow. If they send me a press release, I don't use any of that. Um, and I have to just hope that the stuff I'm interested in will be useful to the people listening. But is there some other. Right. That's the only jump I'm making. I'm not thinking about the people listening in the sense of like, Will this be useful to you? I'm thinking of will it will be useful to me. And then hopefully, if it's useful. To me, it's useful to you.

Derek Sivers

Cool. Yeah, I think I probably overthink this. I think that's part of why all of my articles are so short. Um, I counted recently my average article is 22 sentences. Wow. And it's because I. I chop out everything that's not necessary or everything that maybe was a little too indulgent about me and not about the reader. I probably overthink this stuff.

Neil

Well. And to the benefit of the world. Right? Like so. In the introduction of my newest book, You were awesome. I used the fable of, um, uh, the fable of the Taoist fable of the man, uh, the farmer with one horse. And it's your. You gave me permission to use it. It's like the version you wrote, because I looked on the internet for a version of this story, and they were all, like, twice as long as yours. Like, how do you summarize this thing? So. Sure. And I think you I think you took it as a compliment that I was like, this is the shortest one on the internet, so can I use it? It's 2000 years old and you wrote the best one.

Derek Sivers

Okay, I'm a ruthless editor. I'm a half ass writer, but a ruthless editor.

Neil

That's amazing. I'm just going to do two more so we can jump over to the next book. Sure. How to stop worrying and start living. That's the book you picked. How do we stop worrying and start living?

Derek Sivers

Um, I think the. It's the stuff we already said. Sorry to just kind of, you know, I'll just point at that and say there, we said that already. That was the kind of the thinking through the worst case scenario. Um, I remember there's a point in the book that I remember the title of, but I don't remember his real point where he talked about living in airtight, uh, chambers or something like that. He used the metaphor of a submarine. I believe that I think that submarines have many watertight doors inside, so that if the submarine gets pierced At any point the water is pouring in, you can close that door and compartment off that the flooding. So it's only in one little part. So you can all still survive and get to the surface. And he he uses that metaphor saying that we should do that with our days, that if you're having a really bad day or a time in your life to like, find some way to compartment it off. But yeah, I'm looking forward to rereading the book.

Neil

Cool. And then the last one and then we'll switch is How to win. How to win friends and Influence people. Derek.

Derek Sivers

Uh, believe it or not, and you know me. I'm not here to pitch and sell things. But very, very soon my next book is going to be for sale. Maybe by the time this is published. It's called Your Music and People, and it's a book that's kind of two musicians. Well, it's very much two musicians, but, um, other non-musicians have told me that they found it just a great book about, um, being marketing and being considerate. So to me, marketing and being considerate are two different names for the same thing. I think the best marketing is just being considerate. So I've often referenced that book, How to Win Friends and Influence People to a room of musicians, saying, all of you musicians should read this book, but ignore the title, because really, I think that title should have been How to Be Considerate. Um, and if you want to know the essence of marketing, marketing, your music or marketing, whatever it is you do, the essence of it is how to be considerate. So anybody with an interest in marketing should go read How to Win Friends and Influence People and just pretend it's called How to Be Considerate. Um, so there's the short answer how to win friends and influence people. Be deeply considerate.

Neil

I like listening to you edit that answer as you answered it? That was beautiful.

Derek Sivers

You just heard that whittle down to two words.

Neil

That's how he does it. That's great.

Derek Sivers

Period.

Neil

Um, thank you, Derek, for letting me, like, go on that little journey with you. I know it was maybe awkward, but I loved it. That was exactly what I wanted. I wanted to feel your brain kind of attack these, like, big, big questions that. You did it. You. Thank you. Thank you. Um, okay. Book number two is the aforementioned Island by Aldous Huxley. This book was published by Chatto and Windus over in the UK in 1962. Um, the cover is a big, colorful scrapbook bird that looks like it was something from, like, The Very Hungry Caterpillar. It is Aldous Huxley's last book and the one he considered his most important. File this under 823.912 in Dewey Decimal for English fiction in the 20th century. Quickly on the plot. It is the account of Will Farnaby, a cynical journalist who is shipwrecked on the fictional island of Pala. Island is Huxley's utopian counterpart to his most famous work, the 1932 dystopian novel Brave New World. Aldous Huxley. Huxley lived from 1894 to 1963. He was an English writer and philosopher who wrote nearly 50 books and wide ranging essays. Derek. Tell us about your relationship with the book Island by Aldous Huxley.

Derek Sivers

I think my girlfriend gave it to me when I was 22. Um, I was living in New York City and working at Warner Brothers. Um, 9 a.m. to 6 p.m.. Day job for minimum wage. But I loved it because I was deep in the heart of the music industry, which is, you know, I was still an aspiring rock star then, and, um, but I felt that working full time and making money was something that had to be the top most important thing. But my girlfriend's parents were hippies who she like. She grew up on a commune with no electricity or anything in Vermont, and even now they lived in a little cabin that I think they bought for like $40,000. And they raised their daughter until she went off to college in this little cabin in the woods that cost them 40,000 bucks. And I don't think neither of them ever. Neither of her parents, I think, ever got a full time job. They just did little odds and ends to make ends meet, to pay the cost of living. Um, because their cost of living was so damn low. Uh, they had an old little beat up, you know, like $2,000 car. Uh, like I said, their their home cost a total of 40 grand or whatever, and inside were just like old hand-me-down things that, uh, that was it. They lived in Brimfield, Massachusetts. Postcode 01010. I always remember that.

Derek Sivers

Um, and, uh, so she's the one that gave me the book Island and said, you should read this. And there was a chapter in there. Okay. So, yeah, the format of the book is, as you said, Will Farnaby washes ashore in this little Paradise island he's never heard of. And most of the book is, uh, the locals explaining to this foreigner how they live, how their culture works. This is how we do things here. And so let's just talk about the parrots. Now, that's where I said earlier how they they trained some of the I think the book starts with him hearing this voice that I think says like attention or here and now, I think it's here and now, but the whole idea is to call your attention to the here and now. So he hears this voice here and now here. And now he's confused and eventually kind of opens his eyes and realizes that he's been shipwrecked in this island. And for some reason, parrots are saying here and now and, uh, so that's yeah, that's where I got the idea later, where it's like, um, it would be fun to train an army of parents to say it won't make you happy. It won't make you happy. And then, like, let them loose in shopping malls and stuff. Although now if everybody's shopping online, I guess they're going to just have to be in everybody's backyard, uh, to try to, you know, spread the message that that this thing you're thinking of buying is not going to make you happy.

Derek Sivers

Okay. But anyway, um, in the book Island, at one point, the locals are showing Will how their culture works, and he sees somebody A teaching mountain climbing. And, uh, he comments on the mountain climbing teacher and the his local guide says, oh, well, he used to be my physics professor. And they said, oh, wow. Interesting. So how did he decide from, uh, from being a physics professor to being a mountain climber? And the local guide says, oh, well, we all do that here on Apollo. We just believe that you should change your career every two years. Otherwise you'll just get too set in your ways. You'll just start to get tunnel vision and only see the world through your, um, through your one field of expertise. So, no, we believe it's, um, required to change your career every two years, ideally to something that's the opposite of what you were doing before. So if you were doing something that was too sedentary for the last two years, well, it's time for you to go do something outdoorsy for the next two years and vice versa. Um, if you've been a lumberjack for the last two years, maybe it's time to be an accountant for the next two years or whatever. So when I read this point. Yeah, when I read this part of the book, I had been working at Warner Brothers for two years, and I actually had plateaued.

Derek Sivers

And I'm not just saying that because of the book. I think that's the reason why this hit me pretty hard is because the first year I was on that job, I learned a ton like, oh my God, I had my mind blown with how much I learned about the inside of the music industry and how things work. And again, that's part of what my my book, Your Music and People is about is all the stuff I learned from the inside of the music industry. And I always want to share with musicians, like kind of teaching them the how things work on the inside. But yeah, the last six months I had kind of plateaued. Now I was just kind of going to work. I wasn't learning a ton anymore. And so I read this point and I was like, hell yeah. It's time for me to quit my job. I've learned it's been two years. I've learned what I can learn. I'm going to quit. And so that was 1992. That was the last time I had a job. I quit my job after reading the book Island, and because I read the book Island, it was reading that passage that made me quit the last job I ever held in 1992, and I went 21 years old.

Neil

You're living in New York City or 22 years old. You're living in New York City. You have a job. You read a passage in a book, a fiction book about how in a utopian society, everybody switches jobs every couple of years because of, you know, rural atrophy. And they plateau. You're like, that's me. And like for them, then for the next 28 years up until today, you then continue to do that. I know you don't have a steady job, but then you continue to like shape shift as I recognize it, you know.

Derek Sivers

Kind of, uh, I guess it was easier and more concrete when, like, now, I feel like I haven't had a job, but I do, um, I still do apply that lesson that we should continue to shake things up and do things differently. I've also had other role models in that similar way, like say, um, you know, Bob Dylan doing folk for a long time and then pissing off all his fans by going electric at the Newport Folk Festival. Um, and Miles Davis made these kind of career changes, too, and so did David Bowie and Paul Simon. There have been lots of good musician role models from people who had a sorry, you said Beck.

Neil

I said Beck. Yeah. Beck or Flaming Lips. And these are musicians I think.

Derek Sivers

Of when I think of people.

Neil

That change every album or two. You know, Radiohead in some sense.

Derek Sivers

And it's it's important to push yourself forward and not look back and to say, okay, I've done that already. And yes, it would be the safe choice to continue to do that. But, um, one of my favorite life quotes is from Abraham Maslow, the psychologist who studied self-actualization. One of his guideline quotes was, um, I'm not going to get this verbatim, but he said something like, um, every day, a hundred times a day, you're presented with the choice between safety and risk. And he said, make the growth choice a hundred times a day. It's like, don't, don't stick with what's safe. Don't stick with what you know. Choose the thing that will make you grow. So the Book Island did that for me. And then the funny little PS to it is yeah, here I am, 50 years old now. This book changed my life at the age of 22. And so just a year or two ago, I said, you know what? I need to go find that passage in that book. I'm going to I need to find it. Exactly. So I bought the book on Kindle at the Kindle. And I like started going through the whole book. I didn't read, I didn't want to reread the entire thing word for word, but it's like, let me get to that part. And I went looking for it and I couldn't find it. It I don't know what's up with that. Did they do, like a new version of the book somehow that didn't have this original part? That would be really weird because I found this section where they're like something about mountain climbing, but it doesn't say anything about quit your job or ever. Like, I couldn't find that passage. Um, I never found out what happened with that. Like, did I imagine that? Or, like, is that, like that game of telephone, you know, where you just things get passed on and passed on and you just completely misremember it? Like, I don't know what happened.

Neil

There, whether you had a different version or whether you read what you wanted to hear somehow.

Derek Sivers

Yeah. Who knows. So it's just yeah, a funny a 20 years later, 25 years later piece to that.

Neil

Well, what a life. Like, you know, the premise of this podcast is formative. Like how completely formative have these first two books been, this awakening into the sort of stoic philosophy that you, that you live your life by? From the Dale Carnegie book And then this island book that you read at age 22, that's like, completely like, channeled you out of sort of, you know, mainstream employment into the life that you've been living for so long. Um, I think those two books bring us to your third and final book, which is Time or The Time Paradox by Phil Zimbardo. That is, z z I'm b a r Zimbardo, published by Atria Books, a division of Simon and Schuster, in 2008. So it's by far and away your kind of most recently published book. Uh, it's a big white cover with a huge hourglass in the middle pasted across the top. It says Reclaim Yesterday. Enjoy today and master Tomorrow below the title Time Paradox. The subtitle is The New Psychology of Time that will change your life. You can file this Dewey Decimal Heads in 150 3.7 for perceptual processes. Phil Zimbardo was born in 1933, in New York City, to Italian immigrants. He's 87 years old. Today, he's an American psychologist and professor emeritus at Stanford. I never know how to say that word. Emeritus. Emeritus. Former professor of Stanford, he became known for his 1971 Stanford prison experiment, which was later severely criticized for ethical and scientific reasons. But more importantly to this conversation, he is the author of The Time Paradox. So, Derek, tell us about your relationship with the Time Paradox by Phil Zimbardo.

Derek Sivers

All right. Do we all know about the marshmallow experiment?

Neil

Maybe not.

Derek Sivers

Okay. Um, we'll just say it super fast. Most people have heard of the marshmallow experiment, where, um, decades ago, they took a bunch of four year olds and, uh, one at a time, put them into a room, gave them one marshmallow, and said, I'm going to leave the room for a few minutes if you don't eat that marshmallow, if you can delay the Gratification. Then I'll give you two marshmallows when I get back. But on the other hand, if you eat that one marshmallow, then you don't get any more. So then they left the room for a few minutes with the camera rolling, came back, and then whatever happened, happened. So it seems that around the world, I think they did this test in the US, in Brazil and somewhere else, maybe Japan. And they found that around the world, no matter where about 30% of the kids were able to, uh, able to wait and able to delay gratification and wait for the person to come back and give them two marshmallows instead of eating them. One now. So 70% just ate the marshmallow. And, uh, then what was interesting is they said that ten years later or 15 years later, something, they went back and followed up on all of those kids, and they found that the ones that were able to delay gratification, uh, were just generally happier, smarter, more successful, better in their field, whatever it was that they had chosen.

Derek Sivers

Um, you know, if they were into sports and they were better at sports, if they were into academics and they were better at academics just in general, they were doing life better. And so they kind of extracted this to a life lesson that the ability to delay gratification is one of the best skills you could ever develop, especially in a kid. So I saw Phil Zimbardo give that little talk on stage at the Ted conference in person, and I was just, oh my God, that's such a brilliant idea. Oh my God, what a great idea. And I like I saw him later walking like ran up to him. I was like, Phil. Phil? Phil! Oh my God, that was the best talk. That was my favorite talk of the conference. So when I got home from the conference, I just went to go find his book on this subject because I think in the final slide he said, you know, I discussed this subject in my book, The Time Paradox. So I went and got the book The Time I'm paradox and I. I think this one book has changed the way I see the world more than almost any other. Um, it's funny because it's not a great book.

Derek Sivers

I wouldn't tell you that this is the greatest book. No, but it has a pretty profound idea in it that I. Maybe it's not profound to somebody else, but it was to me. And here it goes. It goes like this. That just like all of us have, um, these spectrums of how we see the world, like introverts versus extroverts. And if you're an introvert, you see the world in kind of a different way than an extrovert does because, you know, ultimately being alone is where you recharge your batteries. Whereas versus for an extrovert, being around other people is where you recharge your batteries. Um, and that can be a fundamental difference in how you approach life, right? And in the book Quiet by Susan Cain, she talks about it's not just about recharging your batteries. It's also a matter of how much stimulation you need that extroverts require more lemon drops on their tongue to, to get the same chemical reaction that an introvert gets with less lemon drops on the tongue. So even just an actual physical, physiological thing like that, introverts need less stimulation or prefer want, you know, they are more easily stimulated. Therefore they they require less stimulation. So that can be a massive difference in how we approach the world. And if you understand that about yourself, it can be really, um, it liberating or enlightening to go like, oh, it's not that I'm boring or I'm shy, I'm an introvert.

Derek Sivers

Oh, that's why I just prefer staying in and reading a book instead of screaming into people's ears at clubs, or if you have a friend of yours that just always wants to be out at the noisy club and always just loves being, you know, screaming into people's ears in noisy venues. You could say, oh, that person's not an idiot. They're not shallow. They're just an extrovert. They require more stimulation, like helps you understand your friend better if you understand that, okay. They just have a different way of seeing the world. Okay, so that's my context to say that in the time paradox, he shows us the same thing with time frames, that some people are past focused, that the whole way they see the world is through a lens of the past. Um, some people are present, focused that the whole way that they approach the world is always looking in at the world in terms of right now. They don't think of the past, they don't think of the future. All there is is right now. Some people are future focused that their mind, they might be physically here today, in this day, but in their mind they're always in the future. And everything they do today is just in service of their future self, that they're just living for the future at all times.

Derek Sivers

They're future focused. That's where their focus lies. And if you understand that we just have different modalities or ways of seeing the world like this, it helps you first. It helps you understand yourself. When you figure out which is your default way of seeing the world, and then it helps you understand others that are not like you or that just look through the different timelines and you say, oh, it's not that that person's again, I'll use the same example. It's not that that person's an idiot. They're just future focused or they're just past focused. Unlike me, I just thought that person was just being stupid. But no, that is just a different and equally valid way of approaching the world. And so it gets even more nuanced and interesting when he says that, um, okay, now that we've introduced this concept of you can be past focused, present focused or future focused, now let's look at the fact that each one of those has a positive and a negative. So some people are past focused positive. That's nostalgia. That's where you you're hanging on to the past so much that you say, um, you know, I wish things were more like they were in the past.

Neil

I love those fizz candies I just ate. They remind me of when I was ten years old. Or like, let's watch, you know, Groundhog Day, because I used to watch a long time ago. And. Yeah, yeah.

Derek Sivers

You know, the whole concept of, you know, make America Great again. Like, let's put it back like it used to be. So that's nostalgia. That's past focused positive. Past focused negative is like where you're haunted by trauma, like something bad you happened in the past, and it's still all you can think about. You focus. You see the present day. What you're seeing through your eyes right now is still filtered through this past negative thing that you're still focused on. So present focused positive is hedonism. That's just living for today, right now. Screw tomorrow. I'll worry about. I'll worry about tomorrow when it comes yesterday. Whatever.

Neil

Pleasure seeking, pleasure seeking.

Derek Sivers

Just hedonism. Present focused. Negative is depression. That's like. I don't even remember yesterday. I can't picture tomorrow. All I see is now. And it sucks. And I'm so he equates that with depression being lost in the sad present, stuck in the sad present. So future focused positive is, I guess I don't know, you'd call that ambition or optimism or entrepreneurial. Well, yeah. If you want to start a business. Sure. Or, you know, whatever. So that's we hear a lot about future focused positive. Um, but future focused negative is anxiety, which a lot of people might be able to relate to right now. Like you're living in the future, but you're focused on the negative aspect of it. So just, oh my God, reading the Time Paradox or just, again, it's not the best book. It's not a brilliant book, but what a brilliant idea or an understanding. And it just it helped me. And in fact, I read it in 2008 when I was Uh, dating and in fact, living with somebody that I just thought was kind of incomprehensible to me. We'd only been together a couple months, and it was like, you know, it wasn't like the best romance, but it it was like, perfect on paper.

Derek Sivers

It had promise. But, God, we just couldn't understand each other. Um, and in fact, you know, I won't. I won't say a name here, but, like, she was always so haunted by. Like, she would still, like, almost every day, mention the fact that kids used to call her fat when she was little. And that still haunts her today. Or if somebody said something mean to her at the cash register, you know, the checkout lady wasn't so nice to her a week ago. She would still obsess on it, like every single day. The fact that, you know, that lady a week ago was mean to me and I'm like, oh, she's she's past focused. Negative. This is how she sees the world. And just like we need to be compassionate for, you know, an introvert or extrovert that is unlike us. You have to just kind of be compassionate and go, okay, it's not that you're stupid. You just have a different lens on the world. For whatever reason. This is how you see the world is you're a past focused person, is the.

Neil

Idea, Derek, that you're only you're one of these six kind of buckets and it's not changeable or.

Derek Sivers

It's. No. And then this was kind of fascinating too is they, they I think Philip, that the author of the book Zimbardo I think he did. Yeah, I think he did these experiments himself where they took people that were kind of self-defined future focused people and did these experiments where they, they had them do something like, I think, draw a drawing or something like that while in a future focused state of mind. And then they started asking them some questions like, okay, close your eyes. Describe to me everywhere Your your body is touching the chair right now. The person would they say, okay, now describe to me every sound you can hear right now. And they would just ask them a few questions, which would put them into a totally like present focused state of mind. And then they had them draw a drawing again, and then they found that the drawings were just kind of objectively better when the person was being present, focused that they were being future focused and vice versa. They took people that were self-defined, present, focused people, and they asked them questions like, um, describe to me where you want to be living in ten years. What kind of what is the future you look like? Where do you what skills would you like to have in ten years? What kind of friends would you like to have in ten years? What kind of house are you living in in ten years or 20 years and ask them all these future questions. Uh, and then they, you know, they did the drawing thing again or some kind of test like that. You know, you'll read the book if you're interested enough in this subject, and you'll see and realize that I've got it wrong or something. But the whole idea is that, yes, you can change your modality, um, just through asking yourself some simple questions like that. So that's fascinating too, that if you find out you're too stuck in the future right now. Well, you know, look around. Where is your body touching the chair right now? What are the sounds that you can hear right now?

Neil

And it should be mentioned, Derek, that on the time Paradox. Com they even offer the test for free. So you can take the Zimbardo time perspective inventory and find out your time perspective scores. I'm just going to spit mine out because I took it before chatting with you. Anyone listening who wants to take it the time paradox. Com so I'm past -1.9. I'm past positive 4.56 I am present fatalistic 2.89, which is what you call depression. I'm present hedonistic 3.80 and then I'm future focused 4.00. And I just threw those out there in case anyone wants to compare their numbers to mine. But they also, of course, include a graph of like the composite of the world who has taken the test as well as this is interesting their ideal scale. So they put forward to you like here's what you think. We think you should be in order. For what? What makes you the happiest person? Yeah. Um, it makes me think of the fact that Leslie and I, my wife, who I've been married to for a few years. You know, we'll drive by like a street that we haven't driven by in a while. She's like, oh. And I'm like, what? She's like, remember we had that fight there? I was like, what are you talking about? You know, she's like, we had that fight.

Neil

We were at that restaurant. We had that disagreement about the specific thing. And like I have, honestly, I have like zero memory of it. Like, I'm like, that's like a blank. She's like, your brain doesn't remember negative stuff from the past. And I sometimes feel bad about this, you know, because I'm trying to connect with her. But I'm like, I don't remember this. Or when somebody will put up a question in an audience and say, you know, can you tell us about what kind of racism you've ever experienced? You know, and I'm like, I don't have any memories of racism. And they're sort of like taken aback, like, well, you know, you're not connecting with me, but the idea that you're a person of color and you may not have experienced, but I'm like, I just don't remember any racism. Like, I'm sorry. Like, I just don't. And so it's also like, to me, I can't wait to because I just took the test today before talking to you about this, I can't wait to ask Leslie, did the test compare my number with my partner and then talk about it? Like, if anything, this gives us a language and a way to have some increased self-awareness about like.

Neil

You know, we can now say similarly. We also say like, we know I'm extroverted and she's introverted a bit more so in our pre-marriage counseling course that we took, like before we got married, like, you know, practice getting married. One of the things that this came up is like, Leslie feels pressured to go out at night, Neil feels pressured to stay in and we came up with a great solution. Derek Neil goes out and Leslie stays in It's nice, but but my point is, like we were both unaware that the other person would be happy with that idea, you know? And so similarly to me, this this example that you've given us with the time paradox is like, wow, what a cool lens to then now talk about in your key relationships in your life to then like, you know, bring some more awareness and color to your connections. I love that.

Derek Sivers

Cool. I love it. Thanks for that example. That was really I didn't, uh, if I'd taken the test, I know I haven't taken it. I think if I knew about it, I forgot that that was there. So I should go try that. But, um. Well, it's funny, so as just a kind of a to wrap up, though, the, um, what I have to say about this book is. So when I read it in 2009 or so, I was like, whoa, you know, like, like I've said so far, like that was pretty profound. But then, you know, I went on and I read another book the next week, but then as time goes by, I just found that I keep coming back to it. Like, I keep thinking of the idea in this book over and over and over again, whereas I look at other books that I might have loved when I read them in 2009. But I haven't thought about for a minute since, you know, whereas this book, The Time Paradox, I think I originally on my rating, if you go to, you know, on Sivers org slash book, I give every book a 1 to 10 rating or 0 to 10. I think originally I gave it a seven. I was like, you know, it's an okay book. It's a good idea. Um, and eventually I bumped it up to a ten out of ten because I'm like, you know what? Here we are, like nine years later, and I still think about this core idea, like, every single week. So I think this is a, you know, it's kind of like the judge of a good movie is like how much you think of it later, whereas you might go see a superhero movie and it's like fun to just have the explosions while you're in the cinema and then you walk out. You don't think of it again ever again. But, um, yeah. So Time Paradox is the book that I have thought about the most since reading it.

Neil

I love that, and it's also like a good reminder if that's what you're if your orientation is like, for example, past positive, like I have a high, high scale there for me. Then I should invest myself in a more challenging book, or more challenging film, or more challenging piece of music that I can look back on as like, you know, this is a good push for me to like, read Infinite Jest or something so that I can, like for the rest of my life, be like, I did it. You know, I read I Climbed That Mountain as opposed to like, you know, reading a comic book that I might like love in the moment, but it will just wash away. Um, so so the time thing is interesting because, yes, you rated this book ten out of ten. Okay. You used a metric, right? You put a number behind it. I mentioned earlier your Ted talks have 8,640,670 views as of today. Um, and of course, Ted, you know, you know, TED.com. You know, they trumpet that number. It's on the front page of your talk. It's right right there in big numbers. You have 280,000.9 K Twitter followers. And I see I see you use numbers too, right? Like, you know, you said a recent tweet. You said I've answered 2100 emails in the past 48 hours. Right. And I mention all these numerical metrics, things that we have in society, because you've always struck me as someone who doesn't measure their life. No.

Derek Sivers

In fact, even though those numbers you just said totally like went over my head, I was just like my actually, my ears kind of went a little blurry as you were saying them. I'm like like looking out the window going, oh, what a nice tree. So yeah, I'm not. You're right. I'm not a quantifying kind of guy. Sorry. Go ahead.

Neil

But then how? No, no, this is perfect. That's why I wanted to ask you, though, because our world is. You know what I mean? Like like like, you know, again, companies and people are foisting upon us these numbers and metrics, sizing our life, right? Like everything is on a bestseller list or how many followers you got on Instagram. You your eyes get blurry on it and that's awesome. And we should be like that. But then I wanted to push to you how do you measure success? How do you think about you know, you are very service oriented and you are future oriented. And you as you've mentioned, it's like, what do you use inside yourself if it's not numbers? And I like that. It's not. How do you think about was this a good day? Was this a great year? Did I do what? You know did I? Did how do you measure it if if not with measurements?

Derek Sivers

Probably the, um, something closest to the Michael Jackson high concept of flow, that if I'm thoroughly engaged in what I'm doing, then that's a great. You know, that's a great time. And if I do that all day, that's a great day. And if I do that all week, that's a great week. And I do all that month, that's a great month if I do that my whole life, what a great life. And granted, he might have been, uh, nudging it in his favor, but apparently the author of the book flow, Mikhail Csikszentmihalyi, um, interviewed people in nursing homes or whatever that were kind of near the end of their life and and asked them, you know, on a scale of whatever, you know, how happy were you with your life? Um, maybe, maybe, you know, let's actually let's forget about the scale thing. I don't know if he actually did the the number. Um, but his point was, at least he said that the people that expressed the most satisfaction with their life were the ones that had also expressed that they had spent the most of their life in the state of flow.

Derek Sivers

So yeah, to me that's I agree with that. That's um, that's how I determine a good time, a successful day or whatever, because I still remember one of the, the best days of my life was this day I had with my kid, I think when he was like 4 or 5. It was just this like sunny day in New Zealand and we just hopped in the car early in the morning and went out to this national park. Um, and just spent the whole day there, just, like, literally like rolling in the tall grass and playing with sticks and climbing trees and throwing pine cones and jumped in the ocean and just, like, laid on our backs and looked at the clouds. And it's like, I just remember just like, oh God, I'm so happy. And we just ended up spending the whole day like that. And I just I got back that night and I was writing my diary after he went to sleep. I was like, this was one of the best days of my life. This was amazing. Um, and then I feel that way when I have amazing days writing, when I'm just so thoroughly engaged in what I'm writing, I'm like, I don't pick up my phone all day and I don't look at a single webpage. I'm just so engrossed in what I'm doing, I can't even hardly pull myself away from it, except when I really need to pee and then, you know, get back to it. Um, I forget to eat or whatever. I'm just so into it. And at the end of a day like that, I'm like, oh, God, what a day. That was amazing. So yeah, I guess that's my metric.

Neil

I love that, Derek. It's so beautiful. I love how also you did not. You're the only person who has never who's not stumbled over the name of the author of the book flow like Michal, Czech, Michal, or however you pronounce it so perfectly. And in that book I love that he has. He has a chart, right? Like he has a great like, I don't want to call it a two by two, but he has a graph where on one side there's challenge, you know, low to high and the other side there's skill low to high. If you don't have either you're apathetic or you have apathy. If you have very high challenge but very low skill, that's anxiety. If you have very high skill but very low challenge, that's relaxation. And then flow is of course high in both where you have high challenge and high skill at the same time. And I love that day that you talked about with your son. I feel like I might have read a blog post that you wrote about it, or at least something similar to that. How do you askew or askew? I don't know how you say that word, but how do you like, drop the like, pressures that most of us feel like kind of be making money or to be like, um, you know, being productive? Like, how do you not have those in your head?

Derek Sivers

I'm going to give you the the laughably honest answer by telling a story of a really funny time when somebody asked me that same question. Uh, it was in my final year or so of CDBaby, uh, which when I was running, it was making a net profit of about 3 or $4 million a year. And I was the sole owner, and there were no investors or anybody else that I had to share the money with. And, uh, I met this kind of, like, starry eyed, 23 year old, uh, gorgeous and ambitious blonde That, uh, spent a couple hours with me in an afternoon. Uh, just kind of. You could tell that she was just, like, looking up to me and just kind of, like, wanted to be me. And, um, she said, you know, as we were saying goodbye, she goes, how are you? Just, like, so happy. You're just like, so God, you're like, the happiest person I've ever met. You just. Everything is so positive. You're so happy. Like, how do you do it? How are you so happy? And I thought for a second I was like, I want to give a real answer to this question. And I was like, hmm, well, first you make $1 million. That really helps, right? I'm like, you.

Neil

Had some level of financial comfort first.

Derek Sivers

Right? Like it would be a lie to not admit that that has something to do with it. Um, but just something I mean, I think that I've probably read, uh, we've probably read a lot of the same books, and I think later I think it was Gretchen Rubin or somebody wrote a book on happiness, or maybe it was Tony Lembersky that that, uh, that said, from.

Neil

Her research project or the how of happiness.

Derek Sivers

Oh, really? Did I get those one right? Yeah.

Neil

Well, Gretchen Rubin is the happiest project. Sonja Lyubomirsky is the how of happiness. Cool.

Derek Sivers

I love that you've got these, like, I'm. I'm not looking at a computer screen while we're talking. I'm just looking out the window. Talking.

Neil

Me neither. I just those were the books I like.

Derek Sivers

Cool, man. Um, so, uh, um, in one of them, one of those authors said that from her research, and I think it was Gretchen Rubin said that, um, that 50% of our happiness is just, like, genetic. It's like from birth.

Neil

Yeah, that's that's a little bit murky. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Um, so you nailed it. So 10% circumstances and 40% intentional Activities.

Derek Sivers

Okay, so I think I, I lucked out with the genetic lottery on that and so did my kid. Um, so yeah, apparently I've just always been happy. Um, and my kid too, like, oh, God. Even just like, as a little baby, he never even cried. He never even like he never had. He's never had a tantrum in his life, like, oh, man, lucky kid. He he got that genetic lottery dice, um, landed on six or whatever it is that he got the maximum happiness.

Neil

Apple doesn't fall far from the tree.

Derek Sivers

So, um. No, I think that stuff is luck. I know a lot of people that have, like, three kids and just three massively different personalities. Like, no matter what the parents are. So, um. But anyway. So I do think that I, um, I got lucky with that. And so I think I would be happy regardless of money or not. Um, but so you asked, how do I not think about money? I also got really stupidly lucky with making more money than I'll ever spend. I was just which I'm not even going to take a lot of credit for. I just got really lucky with the timing. I started CD baby right as the internet was taking off, and I was just a little earlier than some other competitors. That came up a little later than me, but it was too late for them, and it was nice timing for me, and I got lucky that I sold the company just when I felt personally done with it, which happened to be just a month before the financial collapse of 2008. So I just got really dumb lucky. Um, but, you know, I think that's why I do so much to try to just give back ever since because I just got so unreasonably or unfairly lucky.

Neil

Well, thank you for your honesty and for sharing that. And there are a lot of people who have been really lucky or have made money and don't go into flow and do still feel anxious about money and don't understand the concept of enough, which you have written about multiple times. So there is a there's you've added, you've sprinkled over that lock, the sort of like idea of that being enough and living. Then for a life oriented towards intellectual pursuits and to giving back, which you do so generously. Um, uh, I sometimes, you know, we try to do this in schools or out as we're talking. But, you know, I like to have a daddy day with each of my children, like, you know, once a month. And if it doesn't happen, it doesn't happen. But and with my oldest one is five, you know, I will leave my cell phone at home, so I have no contact with the outside world. And I'll say it's left or right day. And, you know, we walk to the end of the street and it's just like the whole day up until the time where I have to go home for dinner. It's like you choose left or right the whole day. And so I want him as a five year old to be able to navigate like a downtown urban center, like including, like the subway and stuff. Um, so that's kind of where that philosophy comes from. And like, sometimes it works and it cracks into one of those days that you just talked about, and sometimes it doesn't. And there's like, we're really far from home and we have no way to call an Uber and like, we're stuck here. But we did this to ourselves sometimes. Like, literally one day he took me on the streetcar back and forth on the same street for like two hours. Um, it was fine, but I've learned that, you know, to.

Derek Sivers

Let them lead.

Neil

Yeah. That's great. Love to let them lead, I love that. Okay. So, Derek thank you. You've given us a lot of you've opened up these three formative books for us. I have a few fast money round questions to close us off. If you're if you're okay with that, don't worry. I won't ask you to define any. Uh, yeah. Fast money. I won't ask you to define any any more Dale Carnegie titles in one sentence. Um, but it's a book show, right? The people that listen to the show are book lovers or aspiring book lovers. We're the only show in the world that dedicated towards people like that. Bookmakers, booksellers, librarians, you know. And so, Derek, how do you organize your books?

Derek Sivers

Oh, I don't, um, I. Although I do have a folder on my hard drive called ebooks, where I save a copy of every book I've ever purchased. Um, I've never gone back to them. Like, I actually might as well just not save them. Because once I take that text file of notes, I don't care about the book. So in fact, that was you know, you mentioned the how to read a book ebook. Yes. Where in the moment that I was reading that book, I felt like, wow, this is I really admire the way that the authors are kind of glorifying the importance of the book or really, let's just say no, let's say emphasizing the importance of the book and urging us to read a book that is out of our reach right now, and to read it multiple times to, you know, to rise to the level of the book. So they're really kind of worshiping the book, and they give examples of books that seem kind of worth worshipping, you know, like Isaac Newton's laws of physics or whatever and or.

Neil

The Odyssey that you're reading now. Probably.

Derek Sivers

Right. So for me, my approach is almost the opposite, where I don't care about the book. I don't worship the book. All I want are some of the good ideas inside that I can use. Once I extract those ideas. I'll trash the book and don't care about it and never see it again. And ideally, I don't even, um, I can disconnect the idea from its source. So that's actually what I started doing. I ended up writing a little Ruby script and created a little SQLite database. I love programming just for fun. Um, just for my own use. Just leveraging tools to do what I want. So I wrote a little database called ideas, and wrote a Ruby script that took all of my text files and anywhere where I had hit the enter key twice in a row, leaving a blank line. It separated the idea there and saved it as an individual idea in the database. Now unrelated to the book, although it keeps a little book ID so it knows if I want to know where it came from, I can find out where it came from. But now I just look at the ideas for their own sake, and I tag them based on the subject that's in that idea. Um, not caring anymore where what book it came from. But just so now I have a collection of, say, 212 ideas about procrastination, and those might have come from 83 different books, but I don't care. I just want the ideas. So, um, yeah. So in some sense, I guess you could say that I'm a more of a cataloguer of ideas and not a cataloger of books for nonfiction. Yeah, for nonfiction and then for fiction.

Neil

There's no cataloging happening.

Derek Sivers

Yeah. For those, I just treat them like the same as I do movies where I just kind of. I'll just enjoy. And none of this applies.

Neil

Interesting. Thank you for that beautiful example. And I love that you program and like organize, organize. That is so interesting. Next question. What is your favorite book store living or dead?

Derek Sivers

I actually got a little stressed out at the The best bookstore. Kind of like the somebody might say that the best hot sauce is the one that, uh, makes them sweat and cry or even puke or whatever. I think, as you're asking this, and I'm kind of running through in my mind, I'm, like, quickly replaying every bookstore I've ever been in. The ones that I would say are the best. Bookstores ended up having a negative effect on me because it's just like, ah, it's too much. There are too many things I want to read. Get me out of here. Like, it's just.

Neil

I don't love the candy store.

Derek Sivers

Yeah, I don't love bookstores. I used to work in a candy store. I don't love bookstores because they have that effect on me. It's too much. It's. Oh, my God, they like stimulating. Yeah. It's overstimulating. I'm an introvert. I don't I don't want even enough. So, I mean, you know, at the same time, yes, they're wonderful, inspiring places to go into a bookstore and just browse and get inspired and wanted to rise to the level of these wonderful books. But all in all, yeah, the effect it has on me is it's always too much.

Neil

I get the sense that there are, despite the overwhelm, some cool independent bookstores in Oxford, England, I would fathom.

Derek Sivers

Oh hell yeah. Oh my God. I think, in fact, there's there's one I think it's called Blackstone's. It's, it's got some kind of superlative to it where it's like the largest single room of books in the world, or the largest single room book store in the world, or something like that. When my friends visit Oxford or when people come visit Oxford and I meet them, it's the first place I take people as I walk them through the center of town and I say, well, this is the this is the center of Oxford. And then now I'm going to take you to Blackstone's, and we go down a flight of stairs and I say, look at this. It's like this ginormous room full of books. And, uh, yeah.

Neil

Anyway, I love that. I love books as as bookstores, as tourist tourism places. And I love, you know, in a bookstore like that, buying a copy of your favorite book or one of your favorite books for your friend, and then doing the same for you so that after the visit is over, you've got this, like, little totem from the visit. Yeah. Um, Derek, do you have a white whale book or a book that has either that you've been wanting, that you've been chasing forever, or that has defeated you in some way?

Derek Sivers

Huh? Could you elaborate? I don't really. I mean, I'm.

Neil

Like, making the reference to Moby Dick. Yeah. So it's like. It's like a book that you have, like, had on your like to read pile forever. And it remains there today.

Derek Sivers

Yeah.

Neil

A mountain you've been wanting to climb and have not yet.

Derek Sivers

Well, okay. See this is I feel I have to give a mixed answer. The one that I've had on my to do list the longest and still not yet read is Nonviolent Communication. Mhm. Oh my God. So, so so many people have told me to read Nonviolent Communication. Like, seriously? Shut up already. Like 20 or 30 or 40 something. People have told me. Oh my God, have you read nonviolence? This book changed my life. Oh, you need to read Nonviolent Communication. Now this book. Yes. Okay. I bought it like, six years ago. Someday I will read Nonviolent Communication. I'm sure it's great. But every time I sit down to read it, or every time I think. Should I read this now What always comes up is that I am not yet or not now, in a phase in my life where human interactions are my top priority. And from what I understand, nonviolent communication is about communication. It's about human interactions. But for the last six years of my life, since people have been telling me to read this book, I've just been deep into, like in my own little world kind of phase where the things that are most important to me now are personal productivity. It's my own writing, my own like being the best writer I can be, being the most productive I can be. Um, that's been my focus for six years now. Communicating with other people. Yeah, it's, you know, it's down there at priority number 5 or 6. So that's why I haven't yet read Nonviolent Communication, but I will. I'm not against it.

Neil

Maybe you're also pretty good at it already. Like, for what it's worth, like, you communicate well, so maybe you don't need it. You know.

Derek Sivers

From what I understand, it's it's quite deep. It it points out I have the feeling it's probably going to change the way I see the world, because it points out that a lot of our everyday communication that we think of as very innocent is actually quite manipulative. And it apparently it's a real challenge to be completely non-manipulative in your communication. So I am looking forward to reading it someday, but I'm going to wait until I've made some kind of change in my life where I'm focused on human interactions. Again.

Neil

Beautiful. The number one pain point we hear is that people don't have time for reading. Uh, is there anything you do system wise or structure wise in your life that you like? You you consume, you read so much. So how do you make time for reading? Is there something you're doing specifically that helps you make time for it?

Derek Sivers

Um, not doing it at night. That's a huge one. I think that's probably the number one thing most people do is they they wait until the end of the day to read. Right? Yeah. You know how that goes. Ten minutes in when you're tired.

Neil

Yeah, exactly.

Derek Sivers

Uh, so I often read in the morning when I first wake up. Um, especially if it's, you know, winter and, like, the house is cold and the bed is warm. It's like, I'm just gonna. I'm gonna read in bed, but I do that in the morning, or I do it in the middle of the day. Um, you know, a lot of us get a little, especially if you are work at home. You're self-employed. You're just kind of. You don't have this clear delineation between being at an office with coworkers and colleagues around. Um, but if you just are solitary and working at home all day, it's often early mid-afternoon is when things get a little monotonous. You've you've been sitting there doing the same thing, typing for six hours or something. So. Yeah. Midday. Um, whether it's sorry, when I say midday, I mean, you know, anything between 12 and 3, I'll often just stop. Then I'll just kind of stand up, stop whatever I've been doing, take a break and read for two hours. And so, in short, doing it earlier in the day.

Neil

Nice. That's a great point. Leslie's grandparents used to have this idea of non-fiction in the morning and fiction at night, just as like one little thing that that would work for them. Um, a lot of our listeners are writers or aspiring writers. You are a writer. So to close us off, would you give us, Derek, a piece or two of advice for those who are aspiring to do some of what you are doing today?

Derek Sivers

Oh, Neil, can I ask you one more favor.

Derek Sivers

To pull up? You know, just kind of like you read to me my, uh, yeah. Future Typekit org slash seven. Just the number seven, not the word org slash seven. My shortest, I got it.

Neil

Do you want me to read it to you?

Derek Sivers

Yes, please.

Neil

Okay. It was published on March 6th, 2018. This is what I do for everything I post. It's seven points. Number one, write all of my thoughts on the subject. Number two, argue against those ideas. Number three explore different angles until I'm sick of it. Number four leave it for a few days or years. Then repeat those steps. Number five hate how messy the thoughts have become. Number six reduce them to a tiny outline of the key points. Number seven post the outline. Trash the rest.

Derek Sivers

That's my. That's my process and my advice to others. Um, unless you really feel that being verbose is important to you. Um, and Mark Manson and I talk about this. He and I are friends, and I admire the hell out of his writing. He's one of my favorite writers. Um, he says that he admires my writing, too, but he and I are such opposites in terms of style. Where, uh. His style is so conversational that that's part of his charm, where you can almost feel like it's, you know, this is the two of you over a beer talking philosophy, you know? And he's like, I don't know about you, dude, but, you know, when I got my ass stuck into something, you know? So, you know, that's what I think about what Nietzsche said, you know? Um. Yeah. So, uh, that's his style. But for me, I just, I look at every single word and go, does that need to be there? Like, does that sentence really necessary or is that just indulgent? Like, can I eliminate it? The point. So I'm always aiming to make everything as short as possible, chopping everything I can. And yet one way I often do that is by collecting my messy thoughts, and I write an outline just to organize my own thinking. I look at this like pages and pages and pages of thoughts around a subject and I ask myself, well, wait, hold on. What's the real point? I'm trying to communicate. I'm like, well, really? What I'm trying to communicate is number one, this. Number two that. Number three, the other. Like, that's all I'm really trying to say.

Derek Sivers

And then I look at that outline and I go, oh, well I could just post that outline then. That's since that's the gist of what I want to say. All these other words are not necessary and I just post the outline. The reason I take this approach is because I'm two reasons. For one, I'm just cynically assuming that everybody's too damn busy, and if somebody says, oh my God, you should read this article and you point them to an article that's nine pages long that they're going to go, oh, yeah, I should read that someday. And they're just not going to because it's just too long and they're busy. But also I learned this the hard way because all those years when I was running CD baby, I would often have to send out an email to all of our customers or all of the musicians. So I had something like 150,000 musicians and something like 2 million customers, meaning people that had bought music through me. And every now and then I had something I needed to tell them, you know, some new feature on the site or something that they could now do, or now, you know, we can send your music to iTunes or whatever it is. And I found the hard way that if if I gave the important sentence anything more than 3 or 4 sentences into it that I would get like 500 people would reply back, going like, uh, great, thanks. How do I do it? And I'd say, did you read the book? The how you do it is right there in the email. It's right there in the.

Derek Sivers

Email that you're replying to me. You see, it's in the body of the email that you just sent me.

Derek Sivers

Like, come on, please read the email I just sent you. But if you're.

Derek Sivers

Too.

Derek Sivers

Verbose, people don't read it. It gets lost. And I found that if I reduced my emails down to just like 3 or 4 sentences, then people would actually read it. And so I think I kind of cynically learned the hard way that the less you say, the more likely they'll hear it, and the more verbose you are, the more likely they are to tune it out or not get the point you were trying to make.

Neil

The less you say, the more likely they are to hear it. A maximalist conversation with the minimalist Derek Sivers. Thank you so much for coming on three books, Derek.

Derek Sivers

Thanks, Neil.

Neil

Hey everybody. It's just me. Just Neil again. Hanging out in my basement on my brown couch. Oh, I've got a couple of yellow cushions behind me. A Hudson's Bay blanket beside me. For those that know, the famous Hudson's Bay colours of green, red and yellow were in my baggy navy blue track pants wearing this fluffy fleece sweater. It's funny today. Leslie showed up at the bottom of the stairs wearing the same exact. We have like the same. I got a pink hoodie. She's got a pink hoodie, and it seems like whenever I wear that, she wears the other thing. So we are becoming the kind of couple that looks alike. Maybe we'll get a dog one day and it'll look like dust too. Okay, I'm listening back to Derek. I'm loving Derek. Derek is a genius. I got to say, I cringed a lot in this episode. Guys. Honestly, um, I actually really delayed releasing it for a long time, if you want to know the truth. And the reason is because it was, I think it was maybe my first or one of the first ones I did during Covid. I didn't know how to use my microphones. I was clearly talking through my laptop as opposed to a mic like Derek had. He was a more professional, obviously, about it. Um, I was struggling to pay attention. I was using the internet when I shouldn't have been, because I didn't know how to not use the internet on my laptop. It was I felt like I fucked up. I really, really messed up this interview.

Neil

At the same time, Derek was so gracious and graceful and gracious, and his answers were so chock full of wisdom that I let it all hang out. And here it is. And it's not one of my prettiest interviews. I feel bad about it, but I eventually was just like, man, I just you're just gonna shit the bed sometime faster. And this one was not one of my better interviews. I felt clumsy, I felt awkward, and because I don't do really much editing. Um, clumsy and awkward is what you got. So I'm sorry. And thank you to Derek for putting up with me and giving us so much wisdom. Like, um, there's so many quotes here. The book is not the be all, end all. It's the beginning of a conversation, a game of catch between the writer and the reader. It is a collaboration in order to raise your understanding. I love that Obviously he's much, much, much more biased towards non-fiction reader than I am. I'm probably 50 over 50. I feel like Derek looking at his book reviews, which he posts on Fas.org all the time. He's like a 90% non-fiction guy. Okay, I think we were lucky to sneak in Island by Huxley in there. He says the biggest thing now, I believe, is instead of looking at the bright side, it is to make peace with the worst. Again, I recorded this earlier in Covid, as you could probably tell. So what a great, wonderful way of living. You know, it's very similar to the stoic philosopher Seneca who says, you know, is this the case that I still fear going through a week, a month living in rags and eating a very simple food and, you know, spending more time on the streets? Is this the case I so fear? Okay, third, I'm a half assed writer, but a ruthless editor.

Neil

Um, that's not true, necessarily. I think he's a wonderful writer, but he might not be stylistically literary like a fiction writer, but he's so clear. And that's why I used his fable in the front of my book. But it's also why I can't recommend his books enough. Um, and if you aren't sure if you like his books, just go to Sivers. Org and read some of his essays. They are always so poignant, pithy, and counterintuitive. Very similar to Seth Godin. For those that remember chapter three with Seth and Third Eye or this is my fourth quote. Actually, I'm going a little long today, guys, because there's so many quotes. I think the best marketing is just being considerate. Wow, how shocking is that? And my marketing 101 class at Harvard Business School in 2005. I remember the professor saying, the purpose of the business is to create value. The purpose of the marketing department is to communicate value. But and so, you know, that springs into entire functions in companies about communicating value and advertising and commercials and Google ads and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But how about this one? I think the best marketing is just being considerate. This guy. Think about it. He doesn't buy Google ads.

Neil

He doesn't have billboards. He has no TV commercials. And yet he is adored by so many. There's a reason a quarter million people follow him on Twitter, even though he doesn't even use Twitter. This guy is so popular, he's just being considerate. He's giving ties in with the quote he said about making $1 million first. Uh, this one paraphrasing Maslow A hundred times a day, you're presented with a growth story. 100 times a day, you're presented with a choice between safety and risk. Make the growth choice 100 times a day. Ho! That is a punch to the face. Do you make the growth choice a hundred times a day in your life? I know I don't 50 a day if I'm lucky, but I often shy and shirk away from taking bold choices. I'm afraid of how I'll come across or I I'm too timid to pitch the person I really want to have on my podcast that I'm don't think I'm worthy of, or whatever it is. There's so many times a day I hold myself back. What are you holding yourself back by or back from? And the last quote oh my gosh, I got six quotes today. Extra bonus quote for Sivers. Shivers. The less you say, the more likely they are to hear it. How ironic. Um, thank you all so much. We're 90 chapters deep, people. 91, 92 and 93 to finish off the year. And don't forget, we'll have a special bookmark on the December winter slash summer solstice. Okay. Thank you all so much for listening.

Neil

If you're still here, I'd like to welcome you back to the end of the podcast club. This is the secret club we have at the end of every single chapter of the show, where I talk directly to you, you talk directly to me. We play your voicemails to 181833, read a lot. We read your letters, we have a fun hangouts. The after party. We talk about a word of the chapter. We have fun. It is one of three clubs that we have for three books, including the Cover to Cover Club. That's all of you out there listening to every single chapter of the show. I love you, I feel you, you're with me. I'm with you. We're here together. And of course, the secret club member I erroneously just called the end of the podcast club. The secret club? That is a mistake. There is another secret club. It is entirely analog. It is entirely through the mail. You have to call our phone number for a clue. That's a secret password. It gives you an address you have to mail. I won't say more about it, people, but that's how you join the Secret Club. And for all you secret club members out there, I feel you and I hear you, and I love you. Okay, let's start off the end of the podcast club, as we always do by going to the phones.

Eva

Hi, Neal. Uh, this is Eva from Austria. I discovered your podcast sometime in 2019. I started to listen at the beginning and I recently got to catching up. My absolute favorite episode was The one with Cheryl Strayed. Her compassion and wisdom is unbelievable, and I hope I can somehow incorporate that into my own life. I still struggle to name three most formative books, but one of my favorite books of the last years was Reshma Saujani s brave, Not Perfect. I recommend it to any female identifying person, and I would also be very interested to hear about Reshma. Three most formative books. Also, my favorite bookstore is Shakespeare and Sons in Berlin, Germany. I adore their selection of books and they also sell wonderful bagels. Thanks a lot for all your great work and please give my greetings to your wife and sons. All the best. Iva.

Neil

Thank you so much to Ava from Austria for calling 1833. Oh. What a wonderful voice. I love you guys, I love you. How different are the voicemails we get right from around the world? People calling from Israel and from Japan and from Australia and people that can't call. They're just sending in voice memos and we play them. And it's just, I just love this community. Ava, so much to reflect on. Um, I hadn't I had not heard of the book. So I'm going to say it again for everybody who's like me and wants to read it. The book is called brave, Not Perfect, that you that you said was formative to you by Reshma Saujani. Okay, so that's Reshma. Reshma, um, and the the last name is Ajani a u j n I. Okay, what if we wanted to buy this book? Where do we buy it? What's it about? Okay. Drawing on hundreds of interviews with girls and women from around the country. Stories of women changing the world. One brave act at a time and her own personal journey. Saujani shares an array of powerful insights and practice to make bravery a lifelong habit and enable us to be the authors of our biggest, boldest, most joyful life. It is a bright red book. It's looking like a big pencil font and brave, not perfect. And it's written by Reshma Saujani, who is the founder and CEO of Girls Who Code.

Neil

Okay, that I did not even know. Fear less, fail more, and live bolder. Okay. Wonderful. Maybe we should check this book out, everybody. We already got it on our list. Hundreds and hundreds of ratings online. It's looking good. And then the bookstore. That bookstore. Oh, my gosh, the bookstore for those that want to check it out. It's called Shakespeare and Sons, an independent English bookstore in Berlin, which has a wonderful website at Shakespeare and sons.com, and as mentioned, has great bagels. That was a surprise. How many bookstores have bagels? I don't know. There is a great bookstore, by the way, in Picton, Ontario, Canada for the local Canadians. Um, that is totally attached with the wall to an ice cream parlor and bakery, which is wonderful. Yes, fine. Bagels or ice cream in your bookstore are awesome. Okay. With so much else to say, Ava, thank you so much and love Cheryl Strayed as well. Thank you for the shout out to her. Okay, and now it is time for the letter of the chapter. Okay. This letter comes from Paul. Wow. I just listened to your interview with George Saunders, and I could not believe how bad it was. Here you have one of the greatest writers of our time, and all you can do is try to crack jokes and make comments that exhibit your own intelligence and tell stories about yourself.

Neil

No one gives a shit about you, dude. You're an interviewer. I want to hear about George Saunders. Not only that, but you constantly personalize the interview. For example, during the segment about A Christmas Carol, you keep on asking him about, oh, how does it feel to be rich and famous from writing and still be humble? George Saunders is a freaking artist. He doesn't even think in terms of how successful his persona is. Anyways, I just want to let you know it was a totally disappointing interview, and you really wasted some valuable time going off on tangents and talking about shit no one cares about. Okay, uh, wow. There's a lot of good feedback in there. I really appreciate it. I read that because Ava's voice mail was so loving and touching, and I want to stay humble. And so I sometimes do read the, let's call it 5% of hate mail. Maybe not even that high, but it's nice to read it sometimes. I did not leave. I did not say the last name, because I wasn't sure if Paul would want his last name or her last name on. And, uh, the few things I hear about here are actually real. They're good. You know, I'm not. I, I it's hard because, like, I get that no one gives a shit about you dude part at the same time. Also, if I think about the podcast I care the most about and the ones I like listening to the most, like I like to hear about Marc Maron's life and what he's been up to and what Tim Ferriss is doing, and what book Tim Ferriss has read while he's interviewing, and what Rich Rolle was doing with Julie and what dinner they made last night and where he slept in the like.

Neil

I like the podcaster's life coming into it. It makes me feel like I know the podcaster more and makes me connect with the podcaster more. So that's something I try to bring into my own show. But at the same time, if you're a new listener or you just listen to one episode, then why would you care about me? And I totally get that. Before I got into Marc Maron, for example, I found his introductions horribly long. Now they might be my favorite part of the show, so it's hard to say. Um, and I take that one. You say, you know, how does it feel to be rich and famous and still be humble? Um, yeah. That obviously is something that I'm trying to work through and wrestle with myself. Not that I'm rich and famous, and not that I'm necessarily not humble, but it was. It's a topic that I'm interested in, and I find that George is just so humble. And so his answer to that question, I thought, was really helpful for me, which is like, no matter what they say, I know I'm shit.

Neil

Do you remember? That's what he said. Chapter 75. No matter what they say, I know I'm shit, and the fact that I can quote that means that it's stuck with me, and that there is a little piece of wisdom there that if he doesn't think like that, well, that was helpful. And maybe it was helpful for some people. So I am here. I am defending the things that are being said, but at the same time it's really valuable feedback. So what I did is I wrote back to Paul, I'm sorry you didn't like the interview. I really appreciate the feedback. Um, and I wonder if this might be an opportunity to learn more, to get better. Would you be up for a quick phone call? So maybe if Paul replies and is up for a call, I will talk further and we'll see how that goes. It will be interesting to talk to Paul. Hopefully Paul is up for a little chat. Okay. And now it is time for the word of the podcast. Every single chapter I like to highlight a word that has an interesting etymology is a word I didn't understand at all, perhaps, or just was music and in some form or the other, to my ears, over to Derek.

Derek Sivers

Now I don't get what the fetish is about this.

Neil

Yes, indeed, the word of the chapter is fetish. Fetish. Say it for me. Dictionary. Person. Fetish. That's fetish. A noun Merriam-Webster says there are three essential meanings of fetish. That's not the definition. The essential meanings. Number one, a strong and unusual need or desire for something like he has a fetish for secrecy. Okay. Number two a need or desire for an object, body part or activity for sexual excitement. For example, a shoe, foot or leather fetish, right? That's probably the one that comes to mind first for me anyway. And number three, an object that is believed to have magical powers. This one I did not know. The example is he wore a fetish to ward off evil spirits. Interesting. He wore a fetish to ward off evil spirits. Now let's get into the deeper definition. This is important because we're going somewhere deep on this one. Stick with me here. Number one, a an object such as a small stone carving of an animal believed to have magical power to protect or aid its owner. Okay, so now we're getting to that realm of, like, superstitious objects, right? A material object regarded with superstition or extravagant trust or reverence. Uh. Second definition. Real definition is now an object of irrational reverence or obsessive devotion. And three, an object or bodily part whose real or fantasized presence is psychologically necessary for sexual gratification, and that is an object of fixation to the extent that it may interfere with complete sexual expression.

Neil

Whoa! Okay, there's a lot there. But how did this word come into being? This is the part where it gets interesting. Apparently, um, Portuguese sailors and traders went to visit west coast of Africa, the Guinea coast of Africa, in the 1700s. Some of the inhabitants there wore charms and talismans They basically picked up and popularized the word through a Latin word or a Portuguese word meaning sorcery or witchcraft, which is feiticeiro okay, feiticeiro sorcery, witchcraft, witchcraft. Then it was popularized in a book that came out in 1760 by Charles de Brosses p r o s s e s called du culte des fetishes f e t I c h e s. That is Xanth aigu on the first e. Obviously I totally butchered the pronunciation du culte des fetishes. We'll put that in the show notes, which ultimately influenced the the spelling of English and French. French is f e t I c h e okay borrowed from the Portuguese, and we get our English word from fetish. Okay, this is so interesting. So I want to keep going a little bit deeper here. So yeah they went they went over to West Africa. 17th century West Africans were wearing these talismans that were said to have supernatural powers then in the 19th century. So took 200 years. It got a broader meaning, which is anything of a rational devotion or reverence for anything. And then in the early 20th century, I'm thinking Sigmund Freud, this time of, you know, the sexual revolution of the early 20th century.

Neil

But 100 years ago, fetish took on yet another meaning quite distinct from its antiseptic antecedents, which is a sexualized desire for an object such as a shoe or for a body part, such as an earlobe, not directly related to the reproductive act. Oh, man. Wow. Fetish fetish. Three very distinct evolutionary, uh, definitions of this word that started in the 1700s, when Portuguese traders visit the Guinea coast of Africa and originally used about the talismans they were wearing. Whoa. Thank you, Derek, for getting us down the rabbit hole. That was an incredible word of the chapter. Okay. Now, should we close off now? You know what? Um, whenever I read a negative review, which I do kind of once every few shows, um, you know, I get some. I get a lot of love from you guys. I really appreciate that. You're like, oh my gosh, don't read those ones. Neil come on. Look, I love you. Blah blah blah. But then I thought, um, I like to read the negative ones for reasons I've sometimes said. And although they're few and far between, it's nice to read them. But here's the thing. Let's close off with the positive review. Okay, since chapter 89 was with Zafar, the hamburger man, we didn't have closure on that one just yet. There was a comment online on Instagram where Dana mumford says, I loved this episode. Thank you for introducing us to Zafar.

Neil

And I was like, oh, thanks so much for listening. And then Dana mumford says, I almost didn't listen to it. I thought, Who is Zafar? And I had planned on going back and listening to only two episodes that were by people I thought were interesting. Zafar was very interesting. I have read one of his three books, and I plan on reading or listening to two of his other two books. Also, my daughter recently moved to Toronto blocks from Zafar store. Next time I'm visiting I will go enjoy a hamburger and say hi to Zafar. I have since listened to the episode with your wife which is chapter one which I loved. I remember the book books you mentioned clearly now. I now plan on listening to all past episodes. Dana mumford. Welcome to the Cover to Cover Club. We are delighted to have you along with all you loving, faithful, awesome, just joyous three bookers around the world. Thank you so much for being part of this special community. It is a joy and it is a privilege, and it is an honor to be your host on this almost 15 year quest to uncover the world's 1000 most formative books. Boom, everybody, let's look forward to getting together on the full moon. Keep your eyes on the sky. And until next time, remember that you are what you eat and you are what you read. Keep turning that page.