Smart Business Revolution
host: John Corcoran
relationship building, career opportunities, networking strategies
listen: (download)
Transcript:
John
All right. Welcome, everybody. John Corkin here. I'm the host of the Smart Business Revolution podcast where I talk with CEOs, founders, entrepreneurs, authors, speakers and many, you know, founders and CEOs of companies and organizations like Ypo, EO, Activision Blizzard, LendingTree, OpenTable software and many more. I'm also the co-founder of rise 25, where we help connect B2B business owners to their ideal prospects. I'm very excited today because my guest is someone who has been reading and following for quite some time. His name is Derek Sivers and he's been a musician, producer, a circus performer, an entrepreneur, a TEDx speaker, a book publisher. He started a little company called CD Baby and Host Baby a number of years ago, which were quite successful. Um, ended up exiting those businesses. And, you know, he's learned a lot, shared a lot. I love his philosophy towards relationship building. He's got some great stories to tell about the pivotal relationships in his life, how he built those relationships. He calls himself a these are his words, not mine. Monomaniac introvert, slow thinker and loves finding a different point of view, so that sounds great to me. He's also a California native where I'm based now. Now he is based in Oxford, England. So before we get into that, this episode is brought to you by rise 25 media. Now, if you've been listening for a while, you know how passionate we are about podcasting and content marketing to up level your network. And I am a podcasting evangelist because for ten years I've been saying everyone should start a podcast, or at a minimum it was.
John
We'll be talking about, you know, in your experience, Derek, you should reach out to people. You should build relationships proactively, whether you use the podcast as a tool to enable you to do that or not, I think that you should be doing that. And so we're going to be telling some stories about that. But really, for me, a podcast is a Swiss Army knife. It's a tool that accomplishes so much at once. It can and will lead to great clients, great referrals, great strategic partnerships, great relationships. It's networking and business developments, all of those things at once. If you want to learn more, go to rise 25 media.com or email us at. Support at rise 25 Media.com. All right. So Derek, super excited to talk to you. Having followed your work for so long. And I just reached out cold to you, having known of you for a long time and thought, you know what, now's the time, you know, why not reach out. And so I'm really excited to talk to you, but you've got this great story about the power of one delivery pizza that had on your life. It's amazing all the great things that came from that. But you were a freshman at the Berklee College of Music in Boston, and a guest speaker came in one day and said he was hungry. And you didn't just take that piece of information and sit down in your seat. You actually did something about it, which I love. So tell us that story.
Derek Sivers
Yeah, thanks. I'm glad you know that one. Uh, I've always been an ambitious hustler, so, um. Yeah, I was in, uh, music school in Boston, Berklee College of Music. And the deal was that. Yeah. As you said, the speaker came into the room, and he was not just a speaker. He was like a high powered executive. He was the vice president of BMI music. And, um, as everybody was taking their seats, I heard him say to the teacher, like, oh, are we starting now? I thought we were going to eat first. And the teacher said, no, I just thought you ate already. He goes, oh, how long is the class? He said, two hours. And he went, oh. He kind of groaned. He's like, oh man. So I had the phone number for Supreme's pizza memorized. And so I dashed out of the room into the hallway, quickly called Supreme's pizza, and said, yeah, three Sicilian pepperoni pizzas. Berkeley School room 325. Thanks. And sure enough, half an hour later, they showed up with three pizzas and I went out and I paid the guy and, uh, yeah, gave one to the speaker and two to share in the class. And yeah, he just kind of, you know, finger guns at me, like, all right, kid, I owe you one. And, uh, afterwards, he, uh, when he was done, he kind of said, all right, thanks everybody. And then he kind of pointed to me, like you, I need to talk to you. And he said, that was a good move. We should keep in touch. Here's my card. If you need anything, let me know. So more importantly, I took him up on that because you've probably found this too, that I've attended so many conferences where I've given my card to somebody that could probably really benefit from knowing me. And most people never follow up. Right, right. It's sad how many people never follow up, which to me, I'd.
John
Say over 90% never follow up. Yeah. Yeah.
Derek Sivers
Which means they've missed the whole point of the conference. You know, the point of going to a conference is not what happens at the conference. It's like that's just where you make the initial connection and everything happens in the follow up. So I did my follow up with this guy. I took him up on that offer. And like every month, I'd say for the next two years, I found a reason to contact him and God. It's funny thinking about this. This is before email, so I would call him long distance, you know, from Boston.
John
Long distance charges and everything.
Derek Sivers
Right? Um, from Boston to New York City. I'd get his receptionist, Holly, and I'd talk to Holly for a minute and and a couple times I took the bus down from Boston to New York just to go visit him on a Tuesday or whatever. I'd take the day off of school and go down just to keep that connection fresh, because to me, this is like the biggest VIP I knew in my life. And I had an in. I was excited, this meant I could be a rock star someday. And um, so yeah, I kept in touch for two years and also doing these little favors. Like one time we I went to go visit New York. He took me out to lunch and, um, he just kind of gave me random advice, but I heard him say something like, hey, do you know how to pick a good laptop computer? Um, I need to get a laptop. Actually, this is a few years later, but I'm like, no, but I'll look into it. And sure enough, you know, I spent the rest of the day researching what are the best laptops, you know? And the next day sent him all the information I had gathered for him on what laptop I think he should get, and just things like that. Like finding, you know, listening carefully for a need. Anyway, here's the real point of the story is two and a half years past, I was graduating college and I wanted to move to New York. So I told him that and he said, well, just get me your resume and I'll get you a job.
Derek Sivers
And I thought, yeah, okay. There's only so much someone can promise I'll get you a job. You know, that's not like I'll take you out to lunch, like get you a job. Isn't that a little out of his control? But. So, you know, I was 20 years old. I made a resume. There's nothing on it and gave it to him. And, um. Yeah, about 3 or 4 weeks later, I got a call suddenly, like, Monday night at 7 p.m.. Hi, this is Julie from Warner Chappell Music Publishing. I'm Marc Freid said we should hire you. So, um, I mean, I guess you're hired if you want the job. I mean, can you start on Monday? And I said, uh, yeah, I could start on Monday. Wait, sorry. What is the job? What does it pay? I mean, yes, I'll take it, but what is it? And that was it. That's how I got my job. In my first job, like inside the music business. And I started the next Monday at Warner Chappell Music Publishing in midtown Manhattan. It was like minimum wage, but I was in and it was all because of this guy that I bought a pizza for. Um, yeah. And people ask in the music business, like, how can you get in there? There's a saying, it's a common English saying, it's all who you know. Right? So as a teenager that didn't know anybody, whenever I would hear it's all who you know, it felt like the rest of that sentence was. And you don't know anyone, so forget it. Yeah.
John
It does. Right.
Derek Sivers
And but, um. Yeah, it's amazing to find out that you can go from not knowing anybody to knowing somebody in just a blink of an eye. It just takes the tiniest little connection. In fact, if you don't mind me telling another amazing similar story without.
John
Absolutely. Yeah, I love I love these stories.
Derek Sivers
I'll prompt myself. This is a totally different one. Now imagine this. It's now, let's say nine years later, I'm inside the music business. But kind of. In fact, I was still a self-promoting musician that was still now attending these conferences to try to get my music heard by the executives so I could get a record deal. Right. And so I'm at this conference in Las Vegas. All the music business bigwigs are there, and it's exhausting. It's exhausting mentally and kind of ego wise. Like, you know, you're just you're there. You're so ambitiously hoping to get your music in the hands of somebody that could turn your career around and make you famous or whatever. And so in between these panel sessions, um, everybody, there's like a 90 minute break for lunch and everybody goes outside and goes out and gets a bite to eat. So I go over to the pool and I just take off my shoes and dip my feet in the pool, and some guy sits down next to me and does the same thing. He's like, yeah, that looks like a good idea, man. So he sticks his feet in the pool too, and he goes, you checking out the bikini girls over there, aren't you? I said yep.
Derek Sivers
You noticed too, huh? He goes, how could you not? And so we're just sitting there talking about like, oh, man, this conference is pretty weird, honey. And we're talking about the lady that put on the conference, and he said, yeah, you know, you can't really be a normal person and put on a conference. Everybody who decides to put on a conference has something a little bit, you know, weird about them. And we joked about that and we joked about, you know, one of the speakers that was speaking earlier that day, and I just assumed he was like a fellow musician, like me. So I felt totally comfortable just shooting the breeze with this fellow musician and making jokes about Vegas and the food and all that stuff. And anyway, after like half an hour of chatting, his name is Larry and he's like, well, hey man, I better get going. But he said, you're a cool dude. Here's my card. Uh, let's keep in touch. I like you. And I looked at his card. It was like vice president of A&M records. I was like, wow. Like, if I would have known that he was some bigwig, I would have been.
John
Totally changed the way you would have talked to.
Derek Sivers
Him. Yes. I would have been paralyzed with fear. I wouldn't have had a normal conversation. I would have been like, oh, hey, I'm a musician. You know, maybe there's something, you know. Or I would have laughed too loud at his jokes and just been nervous, you know? But but because I just thought he was a fellow musician. Like, it turned into a real friendship. And I learned a really important lesson that day, which is to not put anyone on a pedestal because that destroys any chance of a real relationship. And the the best contacts come from the people that you're actually just getting along with as a friend, as an equal, you know? And the funny thing is, Larry ended up sending me my biggest clients at CDBaby a few years later. He's the one that sent Jack Johnson my way and people like that. And yeah, we just stayed in touch. In fact, I just got an email from him out of the blue yesterday. We've stayed in touch now for whatever, 25 years.
John
Jack Johnson used to play around UCSB, where I went to college. He used to be playing just in the in the area around there. It was really cool. You used to see him. Um, so but let me let me compare those two stories, because that's interesting, because, you know, in the first story you're even you're a lot younger. You're a freshman in college and sophomore and everything. You remain in touch with this kind of big wig person. How did you manage to suppress that instinct to put the the first individual, the New York City executive, on a pedestal? And yet later, when you're a musician, you meet him at the conference. Why do you think that if you'd known about Larry, if you'd known about, you know, what role he played at A&M, that you would have put him on a pedestal?
Derek Sivers
I think as a teenager, when I met the first guy, Marc Freed, um, I definitely had him on a huge pedestal. I bet I was incredibly awkwardly nervous at all times, even for years afterwards. Like, that wasn't a real friendship. That was like a seasoned veteran who was just a really nice guy with a big heart and put up with this, uh, awkward A teenager wanted so badly to be a rock star.
John
I think you made up for it with persistence, perhaps.
Derek Sivers
Yeah, exactly. And and I think he just kind of I. You must get these people to like, I get people still to this day that approach me all nervous, like, oh, my God, I can't believe it's really you. Hey, man, I read your books. I really like what you do. And yeah, you know, and you just you just smile. You know how it is. And I'm glad that I was on the other side of that and was that guy. And I know how awkward and scary and weird it is. So.
John
Yeah, I think everyone was at one point in time. Right? Unless you're born into a famous family or something like that, you know, at some point you were on the outside looking in. So you can relate to that. Yeah, I get that from people when they come up to me and they want to ask me about working at the white House. I remember I was at a conference a year ago or something like that, and a fairly established, you know, person, Um, came up and brought his family up to meet me. I was like, geez. I was like, you know, I wasn't like, bigwig at the white House. I was just one of many people who worked there, you know? But he wanted to, like, introduce them all to me. So he knew kind of my backstory. But it was kind of funny. Um, you know, you you've got a great quote in this, the story that you said that you wrote up on your website, which, by the way, is amazing. Everyone go. We'll link it in the show notes. Go check out your website. You've got years and years of great blog posts and and you sum up the stories. They're great stories. And then you've got great lessons to them. And one of the things you wrote in that story about meeting Mark freed was the people you surround yourself with. Don't just open doors, they change the way you think and they change your self-image of your capabilities. So talk a little bit more about that, about how you deliberately, intentionally worked on changing the way that you think. Did you think differently as a child? Did that evolve as you, you know, you know, went into adulthood.
Derek Sivers
Um, I think it's just a constant, ongoing process that we're influenced by the people that we admire, sometimes even fictional people. You know, I mean, everybody knows that feeling of, like, watching a certain character in a movie, and you're like, I want to be more like him. You know, I want to be more like her. And so I think that happens when we meet people we admire, whether they're famous or not. Sometimes it's just like a person that you meet and you just think, wow, like that. That person is so loyal. That's amazing. Or that person is so empathetic. I wish I could be more like that. Or that person's really disciplined. I really like the way that she does. What's the right thing to do, whether she feels like it or not. So I think I meant more like that. Like I like being around people I admire because it just makes me deeply happy to to know them and to be influenced by them and to let their influence rub off. But yeah, that's still happening. I'm just a couple of years ago, I actually dated an Olympic athlete for a few months, and it was just amazing getting to know her so well and seeing how she lives her life with such, like, massive discipline, um, just her set of values about like, you know, what her top priorities are and and aunt, it was just. Yeah, just amazing to get to know her so well and yeah, I still have that with, um. In fact, I mean, speaking of making connections, I still do this thing whenever I read a book that I love, I reach out to the author, um, almost every time and I just say, hey, I just finished your book, and that was amazing.
John
Like, guarantee what you make. You make their week when you do that.
Derek Sivers
Yeah. And it's amazing how almost every single one has replied back and have often turned up well, a couple times turned into friendships. Like when we find out that we're going to be in the same city. We meet up and, you know, have a lot in common.
John
And so how did how do you keep that relationship going? You know, for me, for many years, you know, sometimes it's a challenge if you're in different cities. And it was a, you know, it was different back in the day before the internet, before social media, before email, things like that. It's changed. I use the podcast. Obviously, I have conversations with smart people like yourself. But how do you do it? How do you if you reach out, let's say, to an author whose book you really admired and they live in a different city, how do you keep that relationship going?
Derek Sivers
I've always been a phone guy. Um, I grew up in Hinsdale, Illinois, but then moved to Boston when I was 17, moved to New York when I was 20, moved around the world a lot since then. And so my friends are so scattered around the earth right now. I was just talking to my best friend in Australia up until two minutes before this recording. I said, hold on, I got to go. You know, it's the first thing in the morning there and see how my friends are spread out across the world. And, um. Yeah. And so I've always been. I depend on the phone. Um, so, yeah, my, the people that I've met like that, there's a certain point where it's kind of. Maybe you've emailed a few times, you're like, hey, we should talk. You know, some of them don't get to that point. Some of them just stay as email contacts. You know, some of my favorite authors, it's like we email a couple times a year and and that's enough. It's not really chummy enough to be a phone call. But yeah, for the ones that even are just the once a year phone call, um, yeah, I think it's the phone is how I keep in touch is best.
John
Now, the other thing, another thing you wrote about is that you used to tell people that you need to move to a big city because everything that's where it happens, right? And that's obviously what you did. Moved to Boston, then New York, but now you wrote, um, everything's happening online. So, um, and you use this term, you write about super connectors and I, I, I'm not crazy about that term. People refer to me as it sometimes my business partner and people refer to him as a super connector as well. I think the reason I don't like it is because it feels intimidating, and I want others to feel like they can do it too, without the label of it. But regardless of the term, you know, you say that the reason that super connectors, the reason people know everyone can get to know everyone is number one. They keep creating great stuff and posting it online. Number two, they reach out to say hello to the people they admire. So you want to talk a little bit about that philosophy?
Derek Sivers
Mm. Um. It's funny, I've been I've been wondering how our current. You know, I guess we're in April 2020 now, wondering how the current situation is going to affect the importance of being in a city. I wonder if, uh, being virtual, being, you know, on video is going to be, uh, is this going to be like a temporary thing that we all stop doing in a few months, or is this going to become the new normal where it's not so important to be in New York, LA, San Francisco anymore? I don't know. What are your thoughts on this?
John
It's a great question. I think the jury is still out on that one. I don't think we know yet. You know, it depends on if I did a great interview with a client who was an expert in Covid 19 and, you know, he didn't have answers and he's got a medical degree and is advising the governor of California. So I think at this point we don't know. I mean, personally, I like it because you can live in a small town. You can it doesn't matter. You can connect with someone who's on the other side of the globe, like yourself, and have a great conversation.
Derek Sivers
Right. And it's I mean, we don't know what's going to happen with the virus. We don't know if it's going to be a few months for us. But regardless, I wonder about the the, the culture change that might have just happened where I feel like, do you remember even back in the mid 90s, like, or let's say late 90s wired magazine or Tom Peters would talk about, you know, hey, now, thanks to the internet, we can all just move out to the countryside. This is the death of cities, right?
John
But it didn't exactly happen that way, right?
Derek Sivers
Quite the opposite. Cities kept getting more and more and more concentrated and important. But I wonder now if, um, now that there's actually maybe, like, a health downside. I was actually so right now I'm living in Oxford, England, and I was planning on moving to New York City in a few months. We were kind of like making that family decision. And I think I'm changing my plans now because when I talk to all of my New York City friends and contacts, even the ones that are there that say like, okay, personally, I wish you were here. Were here because I miss you, dude. But don't move here now. And and a couple different people said, yeah, all the good people have left. Like, anybody who can leave has left a lot of people who maybe had one foot out the door before are just they're gone and they're not coming back. They've moved up to Vermont. They've sold their brownstone in Brooklyn. They've moved down to North Carolina. They've moved here. They've moved, you know. And I wonder then, if enough people do that. Or are cities not the concentration point that they used to be?
John
Yeah, I personally I think it'll wane for a little bit, but then they'll come back. You know, I think I'm an optimist. So I think we'll come up with a vaccine or something that will help with this virus and eventually we'll get back to it, you know, because, you know, after nine over 11 and after 2008, there was this period of time where everyone felt like, oh my gosh, we're never going to go back to normal ever again. But eventually we kind of did, you know. So I just kind of feel like eventually it'll be at that point. Um, I want to ask you, I don't know how to pronounce his first name, but Ryuichi Sakamoto, is that his name? Ryuichi sakamoto?
Derek Sivers
Oh, yes. That was another one.
John
I can't I can't let you go without asking you about this story. This is a great story. So let me just prompt you. Let me prompt you here. So. So, um, you know, you get a copy of his new unreleased album. So explain how you got that. And you, uh, you know, one person maybe would just listen to it and be like, wow, that was awesome. What a great opportunity. Give it back. Right. But you had it for a day and you listened to it because there was an opportunity for you possibly to work with him as a guitarist. Um, and you decided that you would help him out in a sense. Talk about how you took initiative in this instance.
Derek Sivers
Sure. So, yeah, set the scene. I'm 21 years old. I'm living in New York City, and I want very, very badly to be a successful musician. And so I was just doing the Hustle Man. At that point, I think I had already no, I hadn't yet quit my day job, but I was just hustling, saying yes to everything, and I was just going over the top to make everything happen. You know, I really believe that if you just get a little whiff of an opportunity, you just want to, like, jump on it and just conquer it, you know, like, I don't do anything casually. If it's something I care about, I do it all the damn way. So yeah, this situation was Ryuichi Sakamoto, who is like the Peter Gabriel of Japan, you know, kind of like, makes sophisticated music, but is very famous.
John
Thinking man's musician.
Derek Sivers
There you go. Yes, exactly. So Ryuichi was, um, recording his new album in New York City, and my roommate was the minimum wage, uh, assistant engineer, which meant the guy plugging in microphones in the studio, which, by.
John
The way, actually, I want to point out that little detail because it is really about who you surround yourself with. Even down to your roommate was also in the industry because that led to this opportunity.
Derek Sivers
Exactly right. It was because my roommate, we weren't even, like good friends. We just, uh, we were just roommates, right? But he knew that I was a good guitarist. And so he came home one night and said, hey, man, uh, Richie's got a whole tour booked and he's got the. Peter Gabriel's drummer, Manu Katché. He's got Victor Bailey on bass from Weather Report, who's like a legendary bassist, and he doesn't have a guitarist picked out yet, man. So I told him about you. I was like, oh my God, yes, yes yes yes yes yes, I want this. And so I said, well what are you doing? Like give me, can you give me some of his music. What are you recording with him? And he's like, well yeah, I got this dat in my pocket. It was like the digital audio tape master. He said, I can lend it to you for a few hours, but I got to go back to the studio at 8 a.m., so I got to bring it back with me. But yeah, why don't you take a listen to it? And this is like 11 p.m. on a Thursday night, right? And so, yeah, John, not only did I listen to it, I literally didn't sleep that night. I spent from 11 p.m. until 8 a.m. staying up all night writing guitar parts for his new album, putting them in my little home recording studio, playing guitar along with his new album with the parts that I wrote for it, mixing it back together into a new Dat digital tape master, which I sit here in the morning when my roommate woke up and he was about to go out. I said, all right.
Derek Sivers
Here.
Derek Sivers
Give him this tape. This is what I got. Tell him I really, really, really want the gig. So, yeah, my roommate brings him the tape. Uh ryouichi listens to it. He's impressed. His first question is, what does he look like? He had to make sure I looked the part, you know? Yeah. This is all going to be televised and everything. So apparently I looked the part, and. But I still wanted the gig. Like, I wanted to make sure that, like, you know, how can I go over the top to show him how much I want the gig? So that day I went and bought like six of his his previous albums, and I wrote some guitar parts to those two, and one had a really difficult cello piece in the middle. So I transcribed the cello piece on bass clef on sheet music, just to show him that, you know, if he needs any help transcribing parts, I can do that too. I'm a schooled musician, so I once again gave those to my roommate. Like here, please give these.
John
Showing your utility. Really? Ultimately. Exactly.
Derek Sivers
And so yeah, about two days later, I got the call from his agent saying, uh, he'd like to meet me, and I got the gig, and. Yeah, it was 22 years old. I got to go on this tour of Japan for six weeks. I got to be in the band with this, like, legendary bassist, uh, legendary drummer and 22 year old me on guitar playing to audiences of 10,000 people each night. It was amazing. Amazing. Yeah, again, it was all because I jumped on an opportunity that my roommate mentioned before. Bed.
John
Right, right. Now you have another little detail here. Um, which you wrote about, about the tiniest detail can derail, can derail everything. Um, it was about an experience working with, um, the World Expo in Seville, Spain.
Derek Sivers
Yeah, I'll never know. Okay, so yeah, I, I did the Japanese tour with him and that went great. And if you search my name on YouTube and if you search Sakamoto Derek Sivers, I'm on a video in there somewhere with my long blonde hair playing guitar. And it was 1992. And so then, yeah, the next year, Ryuichi got asked to play at the World's Fair in Seville, Spain. And so he called up the band again and said, we'd like to hire you to come back. So I did, and it was, you know, 20 minutes before we were going on stage, you're like, alright, everybody get dressed, get into your outfits. And I said, what outfits? And they said, the outfits we gave you in Japan from the last tour. I said, oh, you didn't tell me to bring that. I didn't know. And they're like, well, what did you bring then? I said, nothing. And I'm like, sitting here like wearing shorts and a Hawaiian shirt because it's hot. It's Spain, it's August. Oh, jeez. And I was like. And they're just like, well, you can't go out looking like that. I was like, I don't have anything else. And it was too late. So yeah, I went on stage wearing shorts and a Hawaiian t shirt, and everybody else was dressed in, um, what's this rock star? There's no designer, Jean-Paul Gaultier. Everybody else was wearing their jet black Jean-Paul Gaultier outfits that he had designed for Richie's band.
John
Oh my gosh.
Derek Sivers
And I'm in a Hawaiian T-shirt and shorts, and I never heard from him again after that. But who knows? It could have been that I wasn't going to hear from him anyway, but I had the feeling like, you know, that little bit of eye roll kind of knocked me down in my reputation.
John
Right, right. All right, I we we're running a little short on time here, but a couple of more stories I want to tease out of your background here. So, um. Right. I think this was right before you started at Berkeley. You called up a local studio owner, and he ended up kind of taking a liking to you, in a sense. Or at least he was nice to you. He showed a little promise and he said, come on down. It turns out this was the way that he kind of tested local musicians. And so you go down and you meet him and talk a little bit about what that experience was like. Kimo Williams was his name.
Derek Sivers
Kimo Williams yeah. Uh, yeah. Again, I was just a nervous, I guess I was, what, 16 at the time? Maybe 17. And, um, yeah, I just, uh, he said, you know, come on to my studio at 9 a.m. tomorrow. I'll show you. His thing is, he said, I think you can test out of Berklee in two years. He said it's a four year college, but it doesn't need to be. I used to teach there, I think. I think I can help you graduate in two years instead of four. So yeah, show up to my studio at 9 a.m. tomorrow and I'll show you what to do. And so yeah, nine 859 the next morning, I was standing outside his door. I looked at, you know, at the time and waited till it was 9:00 to ring the bell. And he looked at me a little confused. Uh, and he told me the story much later that this is something that he says all the time to people that say they they want his help. He says, show up at my studio at 9 a.m. tomorrow. And he said, nobody ever does. Everybody flakes out.
John
I believe it.
Derek Sivers
And I was the one who did, which is kind of funny. You know, it's there have been a lot of times that people sorry, I'm taking a tiny tangent that people attribute the success I had with CD baby to my skill as an entrepreneur. And I say, well, I was just in the right place at the right time. Like, I started the business in 1997. Like, come on. It was just really lucky timing. And, um, and one of my friends pushed back on that saying, man, no, there's no such thing as luck. And I said, what are you talking about? Like, everything is luck. And he did that push back where he said, no, look, it's all these little things you've done over the years that add up, like, absolutely would have called Kimo Williams and flaked out and I think, oh, all right, I guess so I guess I've always been super ambitious and just jumped on everything.
John
You see, when you saw an opportunity, you took advantage of it. Yeah, there's a lot of people who would have slept through the night instead of adding in, you know, guitar parts to an album, you know, as an opportunity. There's a lot of people who, you know, wouldn't have shown up when that local studio owner said to show up, you know, there's definitely a clear pattern here.
Derek Sivers
Then it's it's that quote about whatever percent of success is just showing up, right? It just feels like, well, you know, that's all I did. I just showed up. But anyway, so sorry to the Kimo Williams story is. Yeah, he um, in basically six intensive two hour music lessons, taught me two years of Berkeley's required courses and just showed me how it can be compressed. Like, yeah, you don't need to sit in whatever 12 weeks of classes to to learn this. I can show it to you in two hours. And and he did. And the most important lesson he taught me then is that never accept the standard pace, he said. These schools have to set their curriculum pace to accommodate the slowest student in class. He said if you are ambitious, you can go ten times faster than that. So he just, I, I don't know if he taught it as a life lesson or I just took it as a life lesson that it's like that in everything in life. Like there's the standard pace that people tell you, well, you know, takes about a year to write a book or it's going to take a lot of work to start a podcast or whatever it may be.
John
10,000 hours to get good at whatever it is.
Derek Sivers
Right, right. Yeah. And you can just, uh. Yeah, you can set your own pace right? In your own abilities. Right.
John
You said before I met Kimo, I was just a kid who wanted to be a musician, doing it casually. Ever since our five lessons, I've had no speed limit, I love that.
Derek Sivers
Yeah. So, um. Yeah. He was just a massive influence on me. Um, and yeah, when I 20 years later or something like that, when I got married, I invited only three guests to the wedding, and he was one of them.
John
Oh, that's so cool. That's so great, I love that. Um, all right, before we wrap things up, there's one more story I want to ask you about. And it was I'm going to go back about 12 years now. You did a talk to the first year students at Berkeley in 2008. There were a number of different points in that talk, and feel free to, if you can recall them, you know, recall any of them, but one you made, which I love. Point number four, you said learn from your heroes, not only theirs. And what I take from that is that others will hold out who their heroes are. And sometimes your hero might be different. Like who you hold up as a standard, who you admire, who you want to learn from. It's okay if they're different. It's okay if it's someone else who maybe, maybe is a little cutting edge at the time. Maybe it was a little hasn't, you know, isn't like the the Mozart or the Beethoven, you know, it's going to be years from now before they're recognized. So anyways, but I want to get your take on that point that you made.
Derek Sivers
Sure. Um, so, listeners, you're going to have to listen metaphorically to this one, unless you are a musician. I'm just going to use a I'm going to use a direct music example of this, that attending Berklee School of Music, it was very much a jazz school. They were teaching jazz. Um, that's what it was known for at the time. And I also took songwriting classes teaching you how to craft a better pop song. But the examples that the teachers used were often these like Billy Joel, Celine Dion, um, old, you know, 60s or 70s classics by, uh, whatever. Um, oh, God, I forgot his name. But anyway, you know, like lame acts that I wasn't into. But they were holding these up as like, now that's a song. And so I had to think past that. And there was one in particular. There was a teacher who he was a Nashville country music lyricist, and he really said, you know, it's not a good lyric unless you use all five senses. You know, describe the way the room smelled when you walk into it. Describe the dust that came off the the curtains in the room as you went to go visit your grandmother for the last time.
Derek Sivers
And I really at first, as a 17 year old taking his class, believed that my lyrics were no good unless I used all five senses. And it took me about a year before I realized, like, wait for one. I don't like jazz that much. I mean, I can appreciate it from a distance, but I don't want to make jazz. And I know that all my teachers love jazz, but that's not what I want to do. And two. My favorite song lyrics definitely do not use all five senses. So what I did is I had to learn their techniques that they used to analyze their favorite songs, but ignore their examples and extract the lesson and use that same technique to analyze my favorite songs. So now I'm analyzing the the glitchy, quirky electronic music of Bjork and why I like it. And I'm analyzing, you know, these weird talking head lyrics and why I like them. And my teachers would hate this music, but that's not the point. I don't need to emulate their heroes. I need to learn what I like about my own heroes.
John
Mhm. Mhm. It's a great lesson. All right Derek this has been wonderful. I want to wrap things up with the question I always ask. Let's pretend we're at an awards banquet much like the Oscars or the Emmys. You're receiving an award for lifetime achievement for everything you've done up until this point, of course. And what we want to know is, you know, who do you think? Who are the colleagues? Who are the friends? Who are the professors? Who are the studio owners? Who are the musicians music industry executives? Who are the roommates? Who you would acknowledge? Who's the what pizza place would you acknowledge in your remarks?
Derek Sivers
Well, uh, those six intensive music lessons I had with Kimo Williams. Um, he didn't let me pay him. He knew that I was just like a teenager. And I said, well, you know, what do I owe you for these lessons? I think I asked him at the end of the first lesson. I said, you know, thank you so much. Oh, my God, that was amazing. What do I owe you? He's like, uh, don't worry about it, you know? And so we had like the fourth, fifth, sixth lesson. I'm like, oh, come on, like you're just doing all this as a favor. What do I owe you? And he said, someday when you're getting your Grammy Award, when you get up there on stage, you hold that award up in your hand, he said, all I ask is that the first two words out of your mouth are Kimo Williams. So for years I've had the idea that, uh, I mean, not anymore, but but for years I had the idea that if I get a Grammy Award, I would get up there on stage and I would just say, Kimo Williams, thank you, and walk off stage. So there's your answer. Nobody's ever asked me that before. But yeah, you just totally set me up for that answer that's been prepared for 30 years.
John
There's got to be others as well, though. Anyone else? No. Hell, no. No.
Derek Sivers
I don't even have dedications in my book or anything. I'm one of those kind of, you know, cool. I love the fact that if you look at old Beatles albums, let's just say when you would look at, like, contemporary albums. Well, I guess back when we would, like, still buy CDs, like the liner notes would be like 15 pages long listing like everybody that ever, you know, brought a coffee into the studio. But if you look at the old Beatles albums, it's just, you know, songs written by Lennon and McCartney, song titles produced by George Martin. That's it.
John
Very simple. Yeah. Very simple. Um, Derek, this has been wonderful. And thanks so much for dropping by and for this great conversation. Um, tell everyone where they can go and learn more about you and connect with you and read your writing, and you've got your podcast now that you've been doing for a little while. I hope you really enjoyed doing that.
Derek Sivers
Yeah. That's funny. Tell everybody where they can go. That's a funny prompt. Um, go to Sivers. Org s I v e r s dot o r g. That's my site. And it is very plain on purpose. Uh, yeah. That's it. I put everything I do. Is it Sivers org. So just go there. And my favorite thing the reason I do these interviews. Honestly, I'm not here to promote anything as you can tell. Um, I really like hearing from people and connecting with people as you can tell. So my email address is in a big font right there at fas.org. So anybody listening to this, send me an email. Send a hello.
John
All right Derek, thanks so much.
Derek Sivers
Thanks, John.