Danny Miranda

host: Danny Miranda

attracting intelligent audiences, resisting social media temptation, life as a paradox

recorded 2022-08-16

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Transcript:

Danny

Derek, thank you so much for taking the time today. When I started this podcast two years ago, I said to myself, “okay Derek Sivers is somebody who I dream of one day having on this podcast”. And the reason for that is because you to me, represent somebody who’s thoughtful, kind, hardworking, just somebody who, if somebody else likes them, I know that that’s my type of person. So for all those reasons, I just want to thank you for being here today.

Derek Sivers

Thanks, Danny.

Danny

Yeah. So on that note, you attract an intelligent type of person to me. It seems like all the people who follow your work, the best word I could use to describe them is intelligent or thoughtful maybe. But I’m curious, from your perspective, how do you attract an intelligent audience?

Derek Sivers

Huh? Well, how do you attract such intelligent guests on your show, Danny? No, actually, I have no idea. But I could guess. It’s not on purpose, right. But let’s say three things. I think different types of media attract different people. So the most popular page on my website is the list of books that I’ve read it’s like 350 books on there I’ve read since 2007, and that’s the most popular page on my site. That’s how a lot of people find me.

Derek Sivers

So you could say that already, like nonfiction books attract a different type of audience than Tik-tok, for example. And so because people are drawn to my website, because of this list of nonfiction books that helps narrow it down.

Derek Sivers

But then let’s say like conversely, I avoid TV, like I won’t go on TV. I want nothing to do with TV. I think it’s like a terrible hype machine. And I hate that. I hate the sound of it. I hate the attention grabbing. My friend Tim Ferris, I think made a big mistake when he pursued TV. He was pursuing maximum fame. And I think he it’s it was a mistake because it attracted a lot of crazies. So I don’t know if you’ve seen his post about the way he has to live his life now because of the crazies that have been drawn to him.

Derek Sivers

But I think that was because of the choice. Of media, right? I think it was because it was TV. So I think you need to choose your media outlet to choose your audience. I also don’t do anything timely. So I think timeless subjects attract deeper thinkers than timely topics, right? So by timely I mean current events and all these things that people like to react to with social signaling and outrage to show what they stand for, suddenly changing their Twitter header to something to signal that they are for Ukraine or whatever it may be.

Derek Sivers

That stuff may get more clicks, but I think it attracts a reactionary type of person and I want nothing to do with that. I also don’t consume it. I just I hate that stuff. I have no interest in it. I refuse to react. I like to be proactive, not reactive. And so I always try to take a philosophical angle, trying to find a more interesting point of view. Also, I think the way that you present yourself. To the world shows who you are. So if you go to my website sive.rs. You’ll see it’s just plain text. There’s like no graphics, no jump out, pop up. Look at me hippie kind of things.

Derek Sivers

And even the covers of my books are just plain text. And I think that kind of quietly indicates to people what they can expect here is like a hype-free, quiet, thoughtful place. That’s my guess. It was a flattering question. Thank you.

Danny

Well, I’m curious if today you think that it is more necessary because I want to be thoughtful and I attempt to be thoughtful in everything I do. But I also feel the pull of social media and the pull of “oh, you want an audience of people to be attracted to your message, so maybe you could make money doing this, or maybe this could be your profession”. So it feels hard for me to navigate those two waters of thoughtfulness and also trying to “build an audience”. What’s your perspective on that?

Derek Sivers

Right. I’d rather earn the respect of ten people I admire than a million people I don’t. So I think it requires patience to be more thoughtful and do things in this un-hyped way, like to avoid the the noisy chatter of the reactionary stuff.

Derek Sivers

But honestly, I think everything you’re doing. I think you’re doing right. It’s like you’re not jumping on bandwagons and shouting about daily American politics, reacting to what happened in the news today and all the stuff that you could be doing to attract a giant, dumb audience. You’re not doing that either. So I think you are doing it right. And if you wanted to even ramp down the promotional efforts a bit, then you just have to have the patience to know that it will bring in the right kind of person.

Danny

Well, for you. Did you ever have trouble with any of the social media platforms? And especially when they started to become addicting? Right. There was a point. I’m sure you’ve seen the whole evolution of the Web thus far. And I’m sure at first it wasn’t like the best computer scientists were programming to get your and capture your attention. But now it’s like the person that’s on social media has to deal with that. So for you, have you had any difficulty resisting the temptation of services like Twitter or Facebook, or was that never an issue for you?

Derek Sivers

Um, no, I’m not tempted because. For one, I just hate that whole world of the overhyped drama, the reactionary, the noise, the people reacting to what a politician said today. It’s the same reason I’ve always hated Tv, right? It has a certain flashy hype to it. It’s like a music that I don’t like. It’s like if we can think of that whole world as a kind of music, I don’t like that kind of music, so I don’t listen to it. It’s all noise and almost no signal, right? Whereas you reading a book offline is like all signal and no noise.

Derek Sivers

But I think the bigger issue here, though, is that I have a constant sense of urgency. All right. Like I’m 52 and that might have something to do with it. The sense of like, I don’t know how much time I have left, but I think I’ve always been this way. Like there’s something I want so badly that I’m on this mission and everything else is a stupid distraction because I really want this one thing. And so I see everything else as a distraction. Right? So let’s go all the way back to like when I was a teenager. I wanted so badly to be a great musician that I would just practice like every waking hour.

Derek Sivers

And my friends would try to get me to come hang out with them and try to get me to go to parties or get drunk or get high with them or whatever. And I just refused because I’m like,”no, I’m trying to be great”. They thought I was ridiculous. They would tease me for being a workaholic musician, right? It seems almost like a contradiction. But then later when I started CD Baby, then I was like, head down on this mission to help musicians just like 7 a.m. to midnight, seven days a week, this one thing.

Derek Sivers

And people would try to get me to hang out and come to dinner, relax, “you know, hey, a bunch of us are going to this thing you’ve been invited to. Richard Branson’s island. Come on, come to Necker Island”. I’m like, no, I’m trying to work. And so since selling CD Baby, now it’s like my mission is to try to be the best writer I can be. Which means, like, more insightful, trying to understand life better, trying to find another perspective. And that’s what I’m really doing. Everything else just seems like a distraction, you know? Like, “hey, come to Fiji with us” no. Come look at Twitter, look at what people are shouting about today. Hey, look what people are angry about. No, I’m not even tempted. I hate that stuff. So, no, I don’t have any social media apps on my phone. I’m not tempted but that might explain why.

Danny

Well, a couple of things that that view of Twitter assumes that it’s all negative or it’s going to be negative. There are pockets, I feel, of Twitter maybe that are not more insightful than long written books, but there are definitely insights about, I guess, maybe the modern world that are interesting and thought provoking and are in alignment with your philosophy, I would argue. But maybe you’re better served finding those in far away books. But I’m curious about the obsession piece of it. Why were you so obsessed to be a musician back then? And why are you so obsessed to be a writer now?

Derek Sivers

I think it’s like. Well, actually, you know what? You brought up a really good point. Let’s go back 20 seconds you said the interesting pockets. I hadn’t thought about this in a while, but a long time ago I had the idea that when people would tell me to check out this website or this Twitter thread or whatever. I think my idea is that if it’s important it’ll make its way to a book. So if I use books as like a natural filter. I thought about this more with the news when somebody says like, “hey, why don’t you watch the news?”. Because if there’s something in the news that’s important, then somebody will make it into a book.

Derek Sivers

Like ideally we would read last year’s news summarized, and then you wouldn’t have to get involved in the weekly dramas. You would just hear what’s important that I needed to know that happened last year, right? You could even do that weekly, like, just give me the weekly summary of what I needed to know from last week if you want to stay up on Weekly News.

Derek Sivers

But then I think I have that even with threads that might happen on Twitter, for example. I think if it’s really important, then this knowledge will make its way into a book. And it’s also maybe just that there’s so much out there to learn that’s already in books that I’d rather just learn that.

Derek Sivers

And it’s this Jomo, the joy of missing out. Everybody else, seems focused on whatever the current hype is. And if you’re trying to distinguish yourself as a thinker and find a different point of view on things, then you should deliberately avoid the current zeitgeist. In fact, wait, so sorry, you’re bringing up some stuff that I haven’t thought of in a long time. Led Zeppelin was before my time, but I was a fan of their music and I read once in an interview with Robert Plant, the singer of Led Zeppelin. He said that like during the seventies, when they were at their peak, people asked them why they sounded so different from all the other music at the time. And he said, “because we all live in the middle of farms in wales, like we’re not part of the London or New York or LA scene. We just don’t even hear what’s going on. We’re just off in the wilderness writing our music. So of course it just doesn’t sound anything like other people”.

Derek Sivers

So that idea really affected me. This idea like if you don’t want to think like everyone else, then don’t take in the same stuff they’re taking in, like look for different inputs. They’re not the usual things. So I think that’s another reason I deliberately avoid even the best of what’s going on, on Twitter for example, because I assume, like, that’s the conversation that everybody else is in. I’d rather read some old book that nobody’s reading and develop some different kinds of thoughts from that so that my voice is not just the same voice that everybody else has today. Do you know what I mean? I’m not putting this very well, but I hope that idea comes across.

Danny

You are putting it well. And I’m curious, what are the inputs that are most influencing you in this current moment?

Derek Sivers

Oh, whenever you’re listening to this show. Whether it’s this week or years from now. If you go to my website sive.rs/book, that’s where I put my list of the books that I’m reading. And the day I finish a book, I post it there with my full notes and everything. So every week you can see what I’m reading this week because I posted there immediately. So yeah, right now, like literally today I’m reading a fascinating book that’s applying Buddhism to marriage counseling. Yeah, I’ll just leave it at that.

Danny

Well, I’m curious now.

Derek Sivers

Well, it’s so interesting. Yeah, it’s just talking about, like, emotions are fleeting, and a lot of people, especially in relationships, think that you know, I’m angry at you therefore, this is something we really need to talk about. And this is a problem because I’m angry we need to talk about this. But it’s like a marriage counselor who’s been doing this for decades says “No look at the fact that emotions are not real things they’re just fleeting. It’s a state of mood. Emotions are not representing reality in some way. They’re not teaching you about the state of the world. It’s just teaching you about nothing but your current state of mind.” Anyway, I was just like, reading it last night and this morning, so.

Danny

Yeah, I know you don’t deal a lot with today, so I’m sorry to bring you back to today.

Derek Sivers

Oh, come on, dude. I don’t mean to sound like I’m you know hating of all things present, because that’s definitely not true. I think the thing I said about Led Zeppelin is probably more accurate. I think I deliberately avoid the current conversation because it feels like plenty of people have their attention on that. I’d rather find this dusty old book and dive into that deeper to see if I can find a different angle that others aren’t drowning in already.

Danny

Yeah and How To Live the book, which everybody should read and check out. When I read it and then I reread it as if I was somebody in 2100. And obviously I have no idea what it would feel like to live in 2100. But I noticed that all the words are simple and I mean that in the best way possible. All the phrasing is stuff that you would assume that people might be able to understand in a different era. And I’m curious if that was intentional.

Derek Sivers

Yes, you’re the first person to mention that. I think about a third of the people I email with are not from the US or I should say English is not their first language. So I’m deliberately, constantly thinking of a simple way to say things. In fact, somebody said it’s not that English is the world’s number one language. The world’s number one language is actually bad English. Because English as a second language is the most popular language in the world. Some of us born in America, US, England, Australia, New Zealand have English as our first language.

Derek Sivers

But for most of the world English as a second language is their language. And so I’m always kind of trying to do simplified English, but at the same time that also helps me simplify my thoughts or get to the essence of my thoughts and make sure that I’m not actually accidentally using catch phrases that I grew up with. For example. Have you ever heard of the language Toki Pona?

Danny

I’ve never.

Derek Sivers

T-o-k-i P-o-n-a Toki Pona. This linguist invented a new language that deliberately only has I forget how many words, let’s say like 50 words, because she found as a linguist that the, oh God I’m not going to describe this well. But like if you simplifying the way you express a thought helps you simplify the thought itself in your head. Which she found gave her more peace of mind to simplify her thoughts. So she invented a language called Toki Pona, where you have to simplify your thoughts in order to communicate with this language that has only 50 words. It’s fascinating.

Derek Sivers

I had heard of it for years. And I was learning a different simple language called Esperanto when I ran into this woman in Singapore who was a fellow Esperanto speaker. So we met up at a restaurant to speak for 2 or 3 hours only in the language Esperanto. And then I found out she is the woman that invented Toki Pona. I was like totally starstruck. I was like, “Oh my God, you’re the Toki Pona woman.” And I wanted to try to, like, speak with her in English so I could nerd out about this. But she refused to speak anything but Esperanto with me. So we had a conversation in Esperanto with the inventor of Toki Pona. How’s that for a tangent? Sorry. What were we talking about?

Danny

No, do not apologize for going down the rabbit holes. I believe some of the rabbit holes are the best places to find true wisdom, and that is fascinating. So what I’m curious about is

Derek Sivers

Oh simple language. Sorry you were talking about you read How To Live a hundred years from now or somebody in Mongolia is reading it with simple English. Yeah. I just got an email yesterday from somebody in Japan who said that they have a hard time reading English, but found my book very easy to read and said, “Thank you. I think this is the first time I’ve finished an English book cover to cover.” So that’s a great compliment.

Danny

Yeah, it’s a deep sign of empathy, I believe, for different types of people from different backgrounds of like, I don’t assume that you know what I’m all about and how I express things. I noticed you did this on a previous podcast. I was listening to where you were speaking to somebody from Australia and you ask them, “Hey, do you know what $0.02 means” when you were explaining a story. And I thought that was such a clear indication of you having empathy for the other person. I don’t assume you know what $0.02 means. And because of that, I’m going to ask to be kind.

Derek Sivers

Thank you. It’s been one of my favorite things about leaving America and living around the world has been it. Yeah, it upsets all of your assumptions and makes you realize what you were assuming. So thanks for noticing that.

Danny

Yeah, absolutely. So America, as a culture and a country is very individualist. Or at least it’s known as that. Has that played true as somebody who has lived in so many different places throughout the world of the United States is really like that. And is it even more pronounced than you expected or less pronounced?

Derek Sivers

More so than I expected. So like anybody, I think no matter where you grew up, you feel that the way you do things is kind of like the center of the world. Like if you could imagine a spectrum, we all kind of imagine that we’re in the center and the spectrum goes to the left and right of us or around or up and down. But we’re in the middle of it. The way we do things is just normal, right? So it wasn’t till I moved to Singapore and I got deeply involved in the local community, you know, speaking at local schools and all that stuff and meeting a lot of people that grew up in Singapore and often had never left Singapore. I was often feeling that they were wrong. I was like, no, you’re living wrong. I’d meet people who’d say, like, you know, “I want to be a musician. but my parents said they wanted me to be a lawyer. So I’m a lawyer and I don’t play music”. And I’d say, no, you’re doing it wrong. You should do what you love. And it took a long time for me to get into the mindset of understanding how what they did was right.

Derek Sivers

It’s just a different philosophy, right? But the the epitome to me was when I spoke at a business school in Singapore, like here we are in downtown Singapore, like the prestigious business school in central Singapore. And I asked a question that I thought I knew the answer to. I said, okay, everybody in this room, raise your hand if you’d like to start your own business someday. And no hands went up. I was like, uh, did you misunderstand the question? Like, Come on, don’t you want to start your own business someday? No hands went up, one hand reluctantly went up. So I ended up calling on people that didn’t raise their hand. Wait, why don’t you want to start your own business? And she said, “Well why would I take the risk? I’d rather just get a good paying job.” I was like, huh?

Derek Sivers

And I turned to somebody else said, why don’t you want to start your own business? She said, “Well, I don’t have any ideas.” And that just blew my mind. That’s when I finally realized the extent of the difference. Because I feel like in America, if you ask a room of people in business school who would like to start your own business someday, I think like not only would every hand go up, but like somebody would run in from the hallway to raise their hand if they weren’t even in the class. Like everybody wants to start their own business. And it’s like, what an interesting, stark difference of of values. Anyway, so yes, that’s the most extreme example, but I just find it constantly, even here in New Zealand, which is almost the same as America, there are subtle differences in people. You know, to be ambitious is a disagreeable trait here. And things like that, it’s subtle. But yeah. Then I finally realized that yes, in the to go back full circle to the spectrum that I realized I grew up On a far end of the spectrum of individualism, feeling like I was normal and in the center. But no, the way we are in America is kind of off to one far end.

Danny

One thing I noticed from your website was that it seems like you’re very happy and content living in New Zealand. I think it’s just a throwaway line towards the end of your “The home pag” is about you being quite happy to have thrown away all your other places of residence or places where you previously resided, and now you’re New Zealand and you’re quite happy about that. What in particular makes you most happy to live in New Zealand?

Derek Sivers

Hmm. Well, first, I should say I’m just a happy person anyway. So I could be equally happy saying, like, “All right, I live in Oxford now and I’m just happy”. And I was like, two years and two months ago today, I was very, very happy living in Oxford and then COVID hit and just visa things and sent us back to New Zealand. New Zealand to me is no, let me. God, I’ve never talked about this. People who get into really bad accidents and get paralyzed for life like quadriplegics and people who win the lottery and are instant millionaires. Five years after the incident. Both groups are equally happy, which seems amazing, but I think there’s a certain kind of a resigning yourself to your fate. You kind of say, okay, well, this is my situation in life, so how can I make the best of it? I’m talking more about the paralyzed person than the millionaire, the lottery winner. But when COVID hit, I was living in Oxford, England, and I had moved there for two reasons. One, the great schools for my kid, and two, for the travel. And COVID instantly shut down the schools and shut down all travel. And I was really disappointed in that. Then, like I said, like Visa things sent us back to New Zealand where the schools are fine, but it’s the worst place on earth to try to travel from.

Derek Sivers

You’re really out in the middle of the ocean like it’s an 11 hour flight to the nearest destination besides Australia. So moving back here, I had to somewhat kind of resign to my fate of going, well, I guess this is it. I’m going back to New Zealand, which I love, but I can’t do these other things I want to do. I wanted to be a citizen of the world. I wanted to have a few homes around the world. I wanted to be constantly nomadic. But circumstances led me back here, so I’ll make the best of it. I did choose it. It wasn’t like I was thrown here by accident. Like it’s my single favourite country in the world.

Derek Sivers

If you had to pick only one place to be for the rest of your life, this would be the one for me. So does that answer your question?

Danny

What makes you happiest to live there?

Derek Sivers

Well, number one, just choosing to be you know, it’s like sometimes people have a certain goal in life. They want to be an Olympic athlete and then they can’t like they just don’t get accepted by the coach. They don’t get accepted by the Olympics. And then they just have to make the best of their new situation. They choose to be okay with their current lot in life. And so I love New Zealand because of just the obvious reasons. It’s gorgeous. It’s very outdoorsy, it’s very natural. It’s a very healthy culture. Like, I mean, the people who live here, I think have quite a well balanced, healthy mindset. I agree with their values, but all of that stuff could mean nothing if somebody was deciding to be unhappy about it. So I think I just chose to be happy about being here. Like it’s a decision actually going back to the Buddhist book about relationships. Buddhist marriage counseling. It’s choosing to let go of the things that bother you instead of to focus on them, choosing to focus on the things that make you happy. Yeah it’s mostly just a choice.

Danny

I love that. That that makes a lot of sense. And in New Zealand, you did a five day hike without your phone. And I’m curious to learn more about that experience.

Derek Sivers

And did I talk about that publicly? I didn’t. I didn’t know that that was out there.

Danny

Yeah, you definitely did. So what what did you learn about yourself from doing that hike?

Derek Sivers

Oh, nothing. No, that’s not very unusual for me. I’m sorry. I know I must sound like a real Luddite or something, but I don’t really spend more than a minute or two a day on my phone. I just use it for calling people and sending a few texts with friends, mostly saying, call me because I just talk on the phone. But even then, I have a few days. Yeah, I very often hardly look at my phone all week. So to go on a hike for five days. You must have noticed the detail that I didn’t have my phone, but for me that was not a big detail. So that was just yet another hike. But I do that almost every week. Like I spend half of the week, I’m a full time dad every week. So half of every week my kid and I just go off into the woods or into the forest or playing in the hills or the craggy rocks by the airport where the waves crash in. We just play in the tide pools and find little starfish and things like that. And I spend like at least half my week just completely offline, just giving him my full attention.

Derek Sivers

So yeah, five days walk in the woods without my phone was not, you know, how did you do it? What did did it change your life? No, that was pretty normal for me. Yeah luckily, my wife and kid are the same way, so none of us use our phones. It’s like we’re from New Zealand. We’re very outdoorsy. We like to be outside.

Danny

It’s funny. I did a five days with no technology in the middle of the woods, and when I tell people about it, they’re often like, “That’s the craziest thing ever. What went on? Like, how do you survive?” And I did notice some differences in what my mindset was like. Well, I noticed that in the first couple of days my mind was running for the phone and the dopamine that I would get from text messages and social media. And it was expecting that and it didn’t get that. But it’s almost like you’ve completely phased out that or never had that dopamine or that rush of like, I wonder when you were in the thick of your business, you must have gotten a lot of emails and messages and people needing you for specific things before you outsourced everything. And I’m curious, like when you went from all of that dopamine and all of that inbound to then not having any responsibility for your business when you would outsource everything, did you notice any difference in your mental state?

Derek Sivers

See, I think you’re implying a what do you call that? An immediacy to all of it. But I think my email load hasn’t changed. Like I still answer a couple hundred emails every week personally, and I always did, but I never do them urgently. So in fact, I don’t know if I should reveal this secret. I almost never reply to an email until after four days because I don’t want people to think that I’m ever going to be an immediate reply for. So I will deliberately only answer my say if my inbox has 300 emails. 100 are from the last four days, I will answer the 200 and then I’ll stop. So that those more recent ones don’t think that they can expect an immediate reply from me. But I’ve always been like that. Like if you email me, I will always get back to you, but usually within like 4 to 7 days. So this discourages people from ever thinking they can shoot off an email to me to get a quick answer to something. I won’t do that. And I never did so ever.

Danny

You never did.

Derek Sivers

That, ever? No. Fuck that. I’m not going to be I’m not going to be somebody’s slave. I’m not like your little, you know, sit, come. You know, I’m not going to be your dog to come at your command ever. So, no, I want to teach people that like, no, I will be like the cat, not the dog. You know, if you say, come here, I’ll probably like, turn my tail and walk away. But, you know, maybe later tomorrow I’ll come sit in your lap if I feel like it. No, we should. We should teach the people that interact with us the the rules of engagement.

Danny

So one of the things that I really like about my dad is that he’s a quick responder in that if I send him a text, he’ll always respond very quickly to me and he’ll always put me first. Do you think that responding immediately to the people you love in your life or something like that shows a level of love or attention or care to them?

Derek Sivers

So you just made an important distinction like this is your dad. So to me, again, I don’t mean to dwell too much on the phone thing but like, my phone has no social media apps, it has no email account. There are like 20 people in the world that have my phone number. So if one of the 20 people that I love enough to have given them my phone number, if they text me, then yeah, I’ll stop what I’m doing. So yeah, if a good friend needs to talk, I’m right there. I distinguish between that like that little insider group. Because yeah, the rules of engagement, right. Like my rules of engagement for the 20 or so people in my life that I care enough for this. They’re just like, yeah, anything you need 2 AM in the morning 2 PM in the afternoon, I’m there for you. That’s different than the public.

Danny

Yes, that makes a lot of sense. And I’m really grateful for you drawing that distinction. One of the stories that I found out about you when doing research was about, I believe, a famous Broadway musician or a writer.

Derek Sivers

Oh, you remember this?

Danny

Yes. What happened with it?

Derek Sivers

Well, that’s really sweet that you know that story. Yeah. In fact, just the fact that I just said 2:00 AM or 2 p.m., I’m quoting him exactly. In fact, I think I can just name his name. I don’t think he’ll mind. Jeff Marx. You can look him up on Wikipedia. Yeah he wrote the great Broadway Musical Avenue Q and Book of Mormon. And another one I forget. But like Jeff and I just met at the TED Conference once and he was wearing his avenue t shirt, I was like, “Hey, you’re the dude that made Avenue Q, I love you.” And he’s like, “Oh my God, you’re the CD Baby, dude, I love you.” And so we just became really good friends. And yeah, we used to talk on the phone. Like once a week or so, but I had him kind of up on a pedestal, right? Like he’s this like Tony award winning VIP that I really looked up to. So I’d often email him and say,”Jeff, are you available to talk next Thursday at, say, 4:00?”

Derek Sivers

He’s the one that said, “Dude, I’m your friend. If you need to talk at 2 a.m in the morning or 2 p.m in the afternoon, just call me. I’m your friend. I will always stop what I’m doing.” And yeah, what’s funny is that I was really, really touched by him saying that. But then he’s the one that ended up taking me up on that more than I did. So almost always, if my phone rings at two in the morning, I know it’s Jeff. You know, nobody else does that. But I thought that was really that was really sweet and endearing. So, yeah that’s amazing that you knew that. That when I said 2 a.m. or 2 p.m., I’m actually quoting Jeff Marx and you got the reference. So thank you.

Danny

Yes. Well, it’s funny because I feel like the best feeling in the world is when you admire somebody and they also admire you, similar to what you were talking about before.

Derek Sivers

Hell Yeah it’s the best.

Danny

So other than Jeff, what are examples in your own life when that’s been the case?

Derek Sivers

Oh, this is embarrassing. As you can tell, I like books and so when I love a book, I very often email the author to tell them how much I loved it. And I’d say one out of every three times. The author says, “Oh my God, I’m a fan of your work.” And I’m like, Oh, that’s the best feeling. Like, I had no idea that they know who I am.

Danny

Nobody you want to divulge or speak on words about.

Derek Sivers

Oh, God. It just happens all the time. Let me just pick one like Mark Manson. That guy, I think it was before his big book came out. And I just loved his articles so much that I reached out to him and just said, “Man, I just. I love your writing.” And he said, “Oh, my God, I love your writing.” Actually the first 8 million or so copies of his Subtle Art of Not Giving a F*ck book, had my quote on back because he sent me a rough draft of it before it was published. Actually, I kind of helped. I was trying to help introduce him to publishers to get that book deal. When the book was published, he had asked me for a blurb so that my blurb was on the back cover. And because I loved that book so much and I forgot about that. So later I’m in one of those tiny little airport bookstores that only sells like 20 books. It was like a little tiny airport in Fiji, actually. And I was like, “Oh wow, look, Mark’s book is here.” I was like, “Oh, this is so cool.” And I flip it over and it says Derek Sivers. I was like, “Oh fuck, I forgot. I’m on the back cover.” Almost every writer, even the writers I like. I think that I can improve on what they say. Like when I do my book notes that my sive.rs/book web page, whenever I do, my book notes, I take what the author has said, and then I usually paraphrase it into a way that I think it could be said better. And I put it into my own words.

Derek Sivers

Mark is one of the only writers I just can’t improve a single word. Like every sentence he writes, I’m just like there’s no way to say it better. That’s just the best, I try sometimes I’ll even put in like 10 minutes of furrowed brow to think like, how could this be said better? I’m like, no, he nailed it. That’s the best.

Danny

Going back to an earlier question, why are you so obsessed with writing?

Derek Sivers

It’s not the writing. It’s the thinking. It’s like I really want to find another point of view. I love those moments when you read something or now let’s just say when you hear an idea that changes the whole way you think of the world, it’s like it changes your entire life up to this moment and it changes your future. Because sometimes somebody gives you an insight into the human condition that makes you think back about your whole life going, “Oh yeah, now I understand why this happened”, or “that makes more sense now”. Now I can put this into a different perspective. Wow, that really helps me understand. And then it changes your life in the future. Because now knowing this, if you remember it, then it can change the way you interact with the world in the future.

Derek Sivers

Those moments to me, like nothing compares to it. Those are the best moments in the whole world. All the other things you hear are great in life, you know, whether it’s love or money or bungee jumping, Don’t compare to those moments where an insight makes you rethink your past and future. And so knowing that those are my favorite moments in life, I want to also create those moments. For myself, but especially for others. I want to keep finding insights into life that blow my own mind and then find a way to share that with others in a way that’s effective and enticing.

Danny

And I got chills while you’re saying that, tears start to well up in my eyes because you are responsible for so many of those moments for me personally, like the 4345 story, like you go through Tim Ferriss and you you go through the whole catalog and we’ll put every single one in the show notes. Because when you said some of those ideas and then after going through those podcast. I then go through all of your blog posts and I’m like, “Oh, wow, this oh, wow, this. Oh, wow.” And it’s just like nonstop. We could do hundreds of podcasts literally on just every blog post because you are so responsible for so much of my thinking and for updating so much of my thinking. And so it it makes sense that you say that to me in this moment. So thank you.

Derek Sivers

You know, just like two weeks ago I had an interview with Kevin Kelly where I was saying the exact same thing to him. He interviewed me for his Cool Tools podcast and like, he’s like, “All right Let us know some of the tools.” I was like, “Wait, before we do, you changed my life.” I was like, so much of how I think of the world is because of you, I just have to say thank you. So I love it. Thanks for telling me that.

Danny

Absolutely. And so on the topic of you being so interested in thinking and coming up with new ways to say things differently and to look at the world differently. You play this game with your son often that I’m now going to play with different people in my life, which is the game of opposites. For example, you talked about what’s the opposite of music. You said you thought about it for a week and instead of silence, it became business. And I thought that was so clever and interesting. But you said in a different podcast that the opposite of leadership is meandering. And I would love for you to explain a little bit about this and why this is the case.

Derek Sivers

Good one. I had forgotten about that. I was a bad leader at my last company at CD Baby, because I was acting like an explorer. Explorers, weave around try a path experiment with this. Go down this route, find out it’s a dead end. They reverse course. Climb a tree to try to see better, go into a cave for a while to see what’s there come out. That’s how to be a good explorer. You try things, you experiment. But that makes you really hard to follow and very frustrating. So the easiest person to follow is someone that goes in a straight line, someone who says “See that mountain in the distance? That’s where we’re going. Every step leads us there onward.”

Derek Sivers

Right. That would be a good leader. So I think the lesson learned is you need to explore privately or let’s say just solo, meander on your own and explore without asking people to follow you. They can follow if they want to go on the exploration with you, but before you try to lead others, you need to decide on a destination. Then you can boldly and clearly communicate the plan and be specific about the reward they can expect to get at the end. Like, how will you know you’ve arrived at the destination? Clear plan, clear reward. Easy to understand, easy to follow. That’s what makes a great leader.

Danny

When you’ve had different periods of your life when you’ve meandered and different periods of your life when you’ve led, and how much of that was intentional of, “oh, I’m going to lead in this moment”, or “oh, I’m going to just meander now”?

Derek Sivers

No, I think I’ve never that’s what I meant. I don’t think I’ve ever been a good leader. I think when I look back at CD Baby, I was a really frustrating boss because I was doing the exploring thing. The company was 100% mine. I had no investors, no other shareholders, no other co founders. It was just me. So I would often explore.I’d say “let’s try this approach for a while”. And then my employees would be like, “What? You’re changing the plan entirely.” And I’m like, yes, I am. Let’s try this approach. And I would do it for a few months and go “Oh no, never mind. Don’t like that approach.” And they’d go, “Oh God, it’s so frustrating.”

Derek Sivers

So yeah, I was a bad boss. I was a bad leader. So it just helps me to say like, no, What I was doing was not leading. I was exploring and I should not have tried to be a leader or like I just said, if I do again someday want to be a leader of other people, that I’m going to have to just cease my exploration for that project and just say that is our destination. Straight line, Let’s go.

Danny

Let me ask you this now. Do you view yourself as a leader of your child?

Derek Sivers

No, no. Yeah, I thought about that. When thinking about the definition of leadership. I mean, there would be some parents who would say, “All right here’s the plan. You’re going to be a lawyer. You’re going to be rich, you’re going to live next to me. You’re going to have two kids because I want grandkids.” You know, this is what you’re doing. No, I don’t think leader is the right way to describe that relationship with a kid. So, no, I think I’m his fellow explorer. Yeah, we definitely meander. I’m his fellow explorer.

Danny

I think a lot of children probably long for that type of relationship of having an explorer as a parent. What would you say to a child who is in the position of being led by a parent that they don’t want to be led by?

Derek Sivers

Oh, God. I don’t know. Encourage your parents to come explore with you to kind of say, “Wait, look, Mom, look, Dad, come here. Come check this out. I think you’ll like it”, you know. Sorry that’s the best I got now.

Danny

No, that makes sense. And on that topic of the way most parents lead, it’s very common for parents to view themselves as leaders. And I would go so far as to say that’s a norm of American society today. I don’t know if it is, but I would assume it is. And if you agree with that, it’s like, why do you think that people are so inclined to follow the norms of society?

Derek Sivers

Oh, well. Actually I love that you connected this to parenting because. Let’s think about babies. That imitating is the most natural, instinctive thing of all. Like babies and young kids imitate everything. That’s how they learn. They look at what’s going on around them and then they imitate like speaking is imitating. You know, moving is imitating, walking is imitating. It’s our instinct. So for most people that probably just carries through for their whole life. So I think you need like a really strong drive and a big desire for something different. In order to not just imitate, right? Like, let’s use a metaphor. Most people are floating down stream. And if you want to float downstream with everybody else, there are great rewards because that’s what everybody wants you to do. They say, “Come on, come get on the boat with us. Float downstream. All the sexy people are here. Grab a beer, kick up your feet. Join all the the sexy people going downstream on the boat.” And it’s very very attractive. It’s very enticing to get on the boat floating downstream with everybody else.

Derek Sivers

And so it really takes kind of a weirdo to we’ll use the mountain metaphor again to say, “I don’t want to float downstream. I want to go up to the top of that mountain.” And the people floating downstream on the boat will say “What are you nuts? It’s freezing up there. And nobody else is there. No sexy people up there. There’s no beer up there. Come on.” And you have to have this drive to say like, “No, I want to go up that mountain. And I know it’s going to be hard. And I know it’s going to be less fun and there will be less sexy people. But that’s what I want to do.” You have to have that drive. They’ll say that you’re crazy and you just have to understand that all of the values that they have are values that support floating down stream. And so suddenly, even if they say, like, you know what you need in life, you need a paddle. You go, “Okay, that’s good for you because that’s what you’re doing. That’s not what I’m doing.” And they’ll say, “You know, what you really need is you need like a reclining chair.That’s what you need in life.”

Derek Sivers

And you’ll say, “No, that’s for you. That’s not what I’m doing.” So suddenly you realize that all of their values are to support what they’re doing, and that’s fine for them. You go, “Okay, that’s for you. But that’s not what I’m doing. I’m doing something that’s the opposite of what you’re doing. So therefore, all of the things you’re saying just don’t really apply to me.” That’s it.

Danny

Is this why you got along so well with the Olympic athlete who sent you an email?

Derek Sivers

Oh, dear, that’s very personal. That was like one of the great loves of my life. Oof! Yeah, Sorry. What was the question? Damn, I was not expecting that. Is that why we got along? Yes, actually. Okay. Yeah, we had that in common. I fucking loved her. As soon as we met. So she’s just kind of a hero of mine. I asked once about, like, friends that call her on the phone and want her to hang out. And she has this French accent. She goes like, “Oh, what do you mean? Like sitting on couches? Like, No, I do not do. I do not sit on couches. Nobody would ask me to sit on couches. They know who I am.” I was like, “Oh, that’s so cool.” Like, yeah, basically she just I’ll use the floating downstream metaphor. She just established really early in life, like before the age of ten, I’m going up that mountain. And she basically just stopped associating with the floating downstream people and only associated with fellow mountain climbers.

Danny

Why do you think we appreciate mountain climbers so much? And do you think that people floating down the stream also appreciate the mountain climbers?

Derek Sivers

From a distance. You can think, “Oh cool, somebody climbed that mountain. Yeah. God, you know, I’d like to climb a mountain some day.” But not badly enough to actually do it. It’s just nice to think about, which is fine. It’s daydreaming is underrated. But yeah, I think we admire people that did things. God, it’s like I hadn’t put it into these words before, but like the people who had the actual massive drive and persistence to follow through and do the thing that you just occasionally daydream about. I would like to learn Mandarin Chinese. I think it would be a really interesting language to learn. I don’t want it badly enough to actually do it. I’ve been saying I want to learn for like 15 years, but it’s always like down there at like priority number 12, you know? And when I meet somebody that learned Mandarin and became fluent, I’m like that person looking at that mountain climber. I’m like, “Oh, that’s really cool wow, you did it. Can you tell me something? So you could read this right now? God, that’s so cool.” And I really admire those people because they actually had the drive and persistence to do the really difficult thing that took them years to do, whereas I just occasionally daydream about it.

Danny

I think that’s a really good point because a lot of people would look at someone like you and be like, that’s a mountain climber for sure. But the point is that you are a mountain climber in some aspects, but you’re also somebody who floats down the river in other aspects. And how beautiful is that to see that in one part of our life we could be something and another we could be something else.

Derek Sivers

Yeah, yeah. It’s not binary. It’s not like you’re either a mountain climber or you’re not. Yeah, it’s different aspects. Thanks for bringing that. That was an important distinction.

Danny

Yeah, because it’s nuance and that represents so much of what you’re about, to me at least, is the ability to look at a situation and be like, well, in this case it’s true, and in this case it’s not true. And what is the the most surefire way of intelligence? Is holding two things in your mind at once is what F. Scott Fitzgerald said something like that.

Derek Sivers

Sounds like that. But you know, somebody asked me once,” You write so short and simple. Do you think that truths in life are simple.” And I said, No, no, no, no. The opposite truths in life have many, many nuances. I’m not speaking truths. I’m speaking in short little ideas that can spread like dandelion seeds. Like they don’t contain the entire truth. No the truth is always so nuanced. It’s always just like, well, in this situation, and if you’re this kind of person who wants this kind of outcome, and if this, this and if that will, then maybe this. But if you’re that kind of person, this or if the situation is not right, well, it depends who you’re talking to and depends what kind of day or what you want in life. And it depends on your background, you know, then that. Truth is not on bumper stickers. Those are always oversimplified and hopefully the people spreading them know that they’re oversimplified. Because those big complex nested if this then that those don’t spread easily, the simplified things will spread.

Derek Sivers

But it’s up to you as an individual to know for your personal situation and in your context and for what you want in this, considering where you are and who you’re around, then this is the appropriate tool to reach for in the toolbox. It’s a shame when people kind of champion a tool and then try to use it for everything and say everybody should do this all the time. That’s never the truth.

Danny

Yeah, Well, do you ever find difficulty when so many people ask you for advice directly of what should I do with my life? I assume a message you’re getting a lot is, “Well, I’m dealing with this situation and this is what’s happening. What do you think I should do about it in that situation?” Yeah, that’s a common email. So what happens then when you inevitably write something back to them that doesn’t contain all the nuance and you’re writing, so you’re trying to maybe produce an idea? Do you have do you ever struggle with that idea of trying to give them truth versus trying to just write something well?

Derek Sivers

Yeah. I very, very often point people at articles that I’ve written in the past. That’s why all of my URLs are so short is because I memorize them. Because I just think of them. I mean I use them often. Like if somebody says, “Oh, you know, I really want to do my art, but I need to make money”. And I’d say sive.rs/balance like check this out. So we talk about parenting, I’m like sive.rs/pa. Like, I’ve just got all my URLs memorized because I use them often in emails. Because if say like three people have asked me the same question and I’ve typed out my answer in full because I don’t have an article about it, then I need to write an article about it and then memorize the URL so I could just use it. But I always try to let them know like, look, I don’t know your full scenario but read this and maybe it helps and let me know if it doesn’t. And then people will often either reply back going, “Oh my God, that’s just what I needed to hear” or “thanks, but that doesn’t really address the real problem”. And then we can get into, okay, well, what was the real problem? And so I try to give it like that. It’s like a very slow if then like, does this help? If not, reply back. Then a week later I’m like, okay what about this? Never trying to present it as truth.

Danny

Yeah. Sorry to cut you off. No, this goes back to the idea of the people who are following your message or who are reading your stuff are very thoughtful in nature, so it’s unlikely that they might take what you write as a blog post, as a prescription to follow 100% if it doesn’t apply to their life, which is something you’ve curated.

Derek Sivers

Yeah, and maybe because we’re just doing an email like, you know, “Hi, my name is Gabriel. I live here. I read your book. I have a question.” They know it’s like, I don’t know your whole life. I don’t know your scenario. I only know these three sentences you just sent me. So, yeah, luckily it’s not like a friend or if somebody was even being a mentor. Like, that’s the difference to me. That’s why I don’t want to be anybody’s mentor, because that involves like such a deeper relationship, like really knowing somebody’s full scenario so you can really give them very customized situational advice.

Danny

Well, talk a little bit about what you do when you are seeking a mentor’s advice.

Derek Sivers

You know the answer, don’t you?

Danny

Well, yes.

Danny

But the people listening might not.

Derek Sivers

I infact, I didn’t want to name him by name in that article. So let’s use a specific example of Seth Godin. Seth Godin and I are friends. We’ve met up a few times. We’ve talked a few times. I look up to him like crazy. And so whenever I’m in some kind of a pickle and I’m not sure what to do with with this situation. I think I really want to know what Seth Godin would say. And I think, well, but he’s a busy guy. I don’t want to bother him until I’ve put some thought into this. So I’m like, “What do I think Seth would say.” Like, first, how do I describe the question for him? So I’ll take a lot of time to explain the question well, to explain my scenario as succinctly as I can try to get to the essence of the question, like, what is this thing? I don’t know. What does it really come down to? And then once I get this question defined really specifically, then I think about asking it to him. But then I think, okay, well, let me try to predict what would he probably say to this? And then I try to counteract that. I mean, I try to respond to my imagined answer of his. And by the time I do that, the whole problem solved already. And then I send him a little email saying, “Hey, Seth, thanks for your continued inspiration.” And he replies by saying, “Thanks, Derek.” And that’s it. That’s how I reach out to my mentors.

Danny

I’ve heard about a lot of fiction authors having some insanity to them because of their playing so many different characters in their own head. I’m curious if you’ve ever written fiction and or if playing different characters has messed with your psyche in any way.

Derek Sivers

I never wrote fiction and no, not messed with my psyche. I think it’s really helpful to be able to imagine what other people would say. So the you know, the question Danny just asked me about my what I do with mentors. So listening audience, he already knew the answer because I wrote an article about this, which in fact the URL is sive.rs/ment. The first four letters of mentor.

Danny

We’ll put it in the show notes.

Derek Sivers

I highly recommend this process for anybody. It’s like you’ve read books, you’ve listened to people’s podcasts. It’s not so hard to pause and think to yourself, “What would this person say?” You know, like, just pick anybody you look up to and think, what would that person say to my scenario? And I highly recommend this process. Instead of just thinking I need a mentor, I need somebody to tell me what to do, which is of course is enticing. In fact, I thought it was one of my favorite quotes from Andy Warhol is in his autobiography. He said, “If I could hire anybody, I would hire a boss. I just want somebody to tell me what to do.”

Derek Sivers

And of course, it’s really attractive this idea of having somebody wise just tell you what to do, you know, I just want to follow orders. But no, I think it’s up to each of us to imagine what this person whose thoughts you know well would tell you what to do. And then imagine another one. Like I have a friend of mine who’s like very much an Army guy. He was in the military forever and his whole outlook on the world is very much like this is the right way. That is it. Like he’s very much that classic leader. There’s the mountain. That’s where we’re going. And I love thinking, well, like what he would say to me. And we’re friends so I know his I know his thought process well. So, no, I think it’s a really healthy ability. No, it’s a healthy ability to cultivate. It’s a healthy practice to do is to very often think what? Not just one, but different people in your life would recommend you do in a certain situation.

Danny

Yeah. And this is an interesting place to tie it around to your perspective of people when they die is especially creative people. It’s like, well, they didn’t die because you could still play their music and they could still be alive. And it’s like similar for a mentor. If the mentor dies, you can still say, “Oh, I know what this person might say.” And on that point, I know that one of the things you’re doing is you’re having an autobiography released the week you die of yourself, which is the first I’ve ever heard of anyone doing something like this. It might have probably been done before, but I’ve never heard of anyone doing it myself. What gave you that idea to do that, and why has that been such an interesting project for you to pursue?

Derek Sivers

Those two are tied together. That one of my mentors was a good friend and a very wise person, and he was killed riding his bike. You can search up the story online. Milt Olin. M-i-l-t O-l-i-n. He was one of my favorite people. We were close friends. I called him on a Wednesday and he’s just like, “Oh, hey, I’m with somebody right now.Can I call you on Sunday?” Said, “Yeah, no problem.” And then like two days later, I got an email from a friend who said, Hey, I guess you heard about Milt, huh? I went, What? No. When I looked at the news and it’s like Milt Oland killed on a bicycle. And so I often found myself saying, like, God, what would Milt say? And I was so disappointed that he didn’t write down his thoughts more or share his life in writing. It was just like, if you were in conversation with Milt, you got Milt. But he shared none of it in writing, so I was lucky to have Milt through conversation. But damn, I wish he would have written down more. So that’s what inspired me. Like, I really need to write down more in my life.

Derek Sivers

But then I have read a few people’s autobiographies that that are only up until the point that they’re writing it. So, you know, they’re like 65 years old and they’re writing their autobiography. But hey, what about the next 20 years? Like you’re going to keep having thoughts, right? So really, the best autobiography would be the one that goes all the way up until death. And then I thought, well, just through constantly adding to it and constantly writing new stories and chapters, I can just set up a system where I keep adding to this all the time, and then I just have instructions to whoever’s around after I die, like, “Hey when I die, please log in and do this and take this and this and then compile it and put it out. This the templates already ready to go,”. And so, yeah, my autobiography could and should be published the week that I die.

Danny

I’m sure it also gives a level of significance to everything you put in that book, because there is an assumption that, oh, wow, this could literally be the last chapter, God forbid. But you know, like it puts a weight maybe that you never considered, did you, of the understanding that like, wow, this could be it? Or do you not think like that? Maybe I’m just more I don’t know.

Derek Sivers

No, no, I don’t think like that with the book, with the writing. But I think like that with life at all times. You know, when I said about the urgency, you said like, how do you avoid social media? It’s like, yeah, because I’m fucking urgent in everything I do. I’m always thinking like, I want to do this before I die. I don’t know how much time I have left. This might be it. I might die next year. You can’t delay this thing. I might die in six months. Like, don’t procrastinate. I have to do this now. So I have that thought with me at all times. As far as like the autobiography. No, I mean it’s also not a super top priority for me, let’s just say my website, the sive.rs website is my legacy. Like, yes, things will be compiled into a book, but really, everything should be on that site.

Derek Sivers

In fact, anybody listening to this, if this idea interests you a lot, please email me because I’m thinking about starting a new project that would be like a trust set up to help keep people’s web presence alive for 100 years. So if you’ve got a website that’s like a personal website that you’re really pouring your persona your soul into. I think it’d be really cool to create a trust and a system that’s set up to make sure that that website stays active for 100 years, for decades after you die, so that people who know of you or knew you a little bit or heard of you can still go to that website and know that URL will go to that website that’s up and you won’t have to depend on your nephew to do it for you. If there’s like a trust in place where it’s like, this is the purpose of it. Yeah, that interests me a lot. I’m thinking about making that my next project. So if this interests you, please email me.

Danny

Well, I’m interested. So you got your first email from me, right? Coming up. But we have to take this baby home, Derek, because I want to be respectful of your time. And I’m curious from the 27 conflicting answers from How To Live, which is the one that you are currently living in this moment, and why?

Derek Sivers

All right. Life is not a problem to be solved, but a paradox to be experienced. I think we all have a deep need for stability, and we all have a deep need for novelty. Right. So but that’s the problem. That’s why somebody gets married because of their need for stability. But then suddenly they lack all novelty in their life and they have a deep need for novelty. So then they go cheat on their spouse and then maybe they get divorced and their whole life’s in a shambles because the divorce, but they’re now they’re longing for stability again. So they get into another relationship. And so on, back and forth and back and forth.

Derek Sivers

But with these conflicting needs they’re always asking, well, which one is correct? Like, do I live a life of stability? Is that correct? Or do I live a life of novelty? Is that correct? Do I live for others or do I live for myself? Which is correct. Should I focus on making money or should I focus on making art? Which one is correct? Do I indulge in the present or invest in my future? Which one is correct? Which one should I do? So I think of instruments in an orchestra. So if you can picture an orchestra. And imagine it’s your orchestra, you have the full orchestra in front of you. So you are now the composer and the conductor. Which instrument is the right one? The whole question is moot, right? Like the question itself is wrong because the question is not an or it’s not like is the oboe or the violin correct. It’s like, no, you use time. You use time and combinations. So you can wake up and invest in your future and live for others a little bit in the morning by answering your email and go make some money and then say noon your kid barges into your room and you suddenly drop everything and give your kid your full attention. Kind of like when the orchestra suddenly drops out and there’s a single oboe that keeps playing.

Derek Sivers

And like the composer decided, yeah, now we’ve got all the instruments, now we’ve got just one, and then the others come back in. So it’s, you know, your kid walks out every room and you go back to making some money and focusing on others again. But then at dinner time, you stop and you say, “Now I’m going to focus entirely on myself.” And now you work on your art and now you live in the present instead of living for the future. And like these are the way that, like all the different How To Live ways are constantly in flux, like throughout a single day, minute to minute, they change. So to answer your question, I’m always living all of the different ways to live. So my book, the How to Live book was meant to emphasize the paradox and discourage the question of even thinking which one is right. That’s why the title How To Live is ironic.

Danny

Derek. I thought I understood the book when I read the conclusion, but I understand it so much more clearly when you explain it. So I’m so grateful for that.

Derek Sivers

Thank you. I just gave away the punch line to anybody. You were supposed to be a little confused by the picture of the orchestra at the end of the book. But if you’ve listened all the way to the end of the Danny Miranda podcast with Derek Sivers, well, now you’ve got the answer.

Danny

Derek, I can’t thank you enough for, like I said, influencing my life in the ways you have and this incredible conversation. I’m so grateful we can use this as an artifact for our children’s children’s children, hopefully. And I’m just, there’s nothing I could say that could let you know how grateful I am for you as a human being. So thank you so much. And is there anything you’d like to leave people with as we end this episode?

Derek Sivers

If you listened all the way to the end? Send me an email and I’ll reply within 4 to 7 days.

Danny

Thank you so much.

Derek Sivers

You really should. Anybody who listened all this way, it’s like, I love these conversations because of the people that I meet because of them. So yeah. You asked me a lot of deep questions, dude. I really poured my soul into this one, so thank you.

Danny

Well, thank you for being willing to go there. So we’ll put your email down below and please send this man an email so we can just spam up his inbox with thoughtful, interesting, kind, insightful messages.

Derek Sivers

Thanks, Danny.