Best of Live Audio
host: Adam Soccolich
storytelling techniques, entrepreneurship insights, introversion strengths, creative writing process, alternative medicine beliefs
listen: (download)
Transcript:
Adam
Today. And of course, with our special guest, Derek Sivers. Derek, you’ve joined us on stage, you’ve downloaded the app, you’re here, you’re really here. Is that right?
Derek Sivers
Yeah, I’m here.
Adam
And you might be on mute still as well. I see your microphone still there as well.
Derek Sivers
Okay. There we go. Sorry. Can you hear me?
Adam
I can perfectly hear you Derek. How are you?
Derek Sivers
Good. This is my first time ever installing a social media app on my phone. I did it just for you, Adam.
Adam
Let’s set the record straight. That is incredible. Thank you so much, Derek. It’s a pleasure to be here with you, especially because I’ve been following you and paying attention to you and reading all of your stuff for so long. But you and I have been talking back and forth on email for almost a year now. Is that right?
Derek Sivers
Yeah.
Adam
Wow, I am so excited. So this is the way live audio works. The room starts, people will populate in and out throughout the show. We’re going to record it and of course share it afterwards as well. But if you don’t mind, I’m going to do a quick introduction for you and then we’ll dive in. So do you feel comfortable? Are you ready to go?
Derek Sivers
Yeah, I’m good, thanks.
Adam
Excellent. Derek. All right, folks. Well, I’m so excited to be talking with Derek Sivers today. Derek Silvers is an author of philosophy and entrepreneurship. He’s known for his surprisingly quotable insights and pithy, succinct writing style. He’s formally a musician, programmer, TEDx speaker and circus performer. He sold his first company, CD Baby for 22 Million and gave it all to charity.
Adam
His latest books, How to Live, Hell Yeah or No, Your Music and People and Anything You Want are truly incredible. I highly suggest you check them out. And of course, you can check out all of his writing on his website. So, Derek, Oh my gosh, it’s such a pleasure to be talking with you because as I reached out to you a year ago when you were just rolling out your book, How to Live, I’ve read it. I’ve read Anything You Want. I’ve read all of your work. I think you are an amazing storyteller. From your music, to your startup, to your TED talks and to your writing, it just seems like some people are born this way, while others seem to grow into it. It could be that classic nature versus nurture type of thing. So where did you really get this storytelling ability from?
Derek Sivers
Well, first, thanks. I didn’t think of myself as a good storyteller, but I’m fascinated with it, so maybe that rubbed off. I think it’s a value system first. I live in New Zealand now, which has a big farmer culture. A lot of people moved here in the 1840s to be farmers, and many people that live here are fifth, sixth generation farmers or their parents were even if they’re not.
Derek Sivers
People often don’t say much here. They could have a big adventure, but when you ask them about it, they’ll say, “Oh yeah, it was all right. We hit a snag or two, got it done.” And that’s it. So in New Zealand culture, it’s culturally valued to be a person of action, not words. But the value system of where I grew up in New York City and Los Angeles, storytelling is valued. So it might have just been my local culture, but also a personal interest.
Derek Sivers
So I personally value it maybe more than most people because I spent 15 formative years of my life from age 14 to 29 being a songwriting musician on stage. So songwriting itself, it’s up to you to make the story. If you can call that a story or express yourself at least. I still read books on the craft of making great stories. I think I read two books on the craft of making good stories this year. I’m still fascinated with the subject. If you go to the book list on my website, which is sive.rs/book, you’ll see the last 340 something books I’ve read. If you searched for the word story, you’ll find some amazing books on the craft of making great stories.
Adam
Yes. And I think as you bring that up, you mentioned being a musician, you’re writing your feelings and your emotions, but you’re still telling a story. And very much so in the books that your writing, in your TED Talks. Is there something that stood out to you amongst all of them? It could be whether a trend amongst them or something specific that you walked away from. And here’s one example for you, Derek. Last year, I had the opportunity to interview ten of the top TED speakers here in live audio, of course.
Adam
And so you are one. And it took me a year to get you here. I’m super excited, but it wasn’t to ask them to come here and to give their TEDx talk again. It was actually more of a story of how they got to give their TED talk. What was it like being on stage? What did they learn? So I can ask you that question about your TED talk, but more and more importantly across your career, is there one thing that you’ve noticed, one thing that you’ve picked up about storytelling that you think really resonates with you and/or your audience.
Derek Sivers
Going way back to when I was songwriting, I learned a trick, which is it helps to use vivid images. Using words that people can picture will stick in people’s heads more than ambiguous terms. So instead of just describing how you feel, describe a scene that somebody can imagine. He’s standing in the rain. I’ve been standing in the rain all night or whatever in front of your house, and I watched the lights turn out. And people remember a lyric like that more than just, Oh, baby, the way you make me feel. It’s so real. Look into my eyes, realize.
Derek Sivers
So using vivid images helps with stories too. People really like this story I told once about a bike ride I took on the beach. Where I went on a bicycle ride every day on the Santa Monica beach when I lived in Santa Monica. I would go as hard and as fast as I can every single day. I would just work myself into a sweat. And the ride always took me 43 minutes. And after many weeks of this, I felt like quitting. And so I decided to just go on like a chilled, relaxed ride where I put almost no effort into it. And that ride took only 45 minutes, which made me realize that I was wasting a lot of my effort for just 2 minutes of time improvement.
Derek Sivers
But when I told that story on my site and later on Tim Ferriss’ podcast, I included some colorful details, like how I was just looking around and I saw dolphins in the distance and a pelican shit in my mouth and whatever. So ten years later, people tell me that they remember that story I told about the bike ride. Whereas like they might not remember if I had just tried to take that lesson and turn it into an aphorism.
Derek Sivers
Aesop’s Fables went down in history. It’s not Aesop’s bullet points. It’s Aesop’s Fables. Even if you actually get a book of Aesop’s Fables, they’re often just like six sentences. They’re just as short as can be. In fact, they get kind of tedious if you get a whole book of them. There’s like 1000 of them, and each one is just six sentences. It gets a little boring after a while. But they went down in history over thousands of years because they were using images of the fox and the bunny. Or the bear in the woods or whatever it may be. I think it’s those images that make them last. Sorry, go ahead.
Adam
Is that something that you have consistently utilized as well? And I’m going to ask that by also saying that, with your books, which I love how succinct you are. It was every sentence, I was fascinated by. It was useful. It was helpful. It was intriguing, and it made me want to read the next sentence. But it was all very succinct. So as you write, are there other skills, other superpowers that you utilize besides vivid imagery or techniques?
Adam
Because that can help everyone here in this room? It can help me. It can help everyone else here. It’s just the way that you’re able to communicate is so simple. It’s almost like--I don’t know what it is. But I’ve heard you say that you do pay a lot of attention to that. How do you do that? Is there something unique about it that you do?
Derek Sivers
Thanks. I edit the hell out of everything I write. I think we got into some bad habits in school, when a teacher would say, I want you to write six pages about this cucumber. And you’re just like, I don’t have six pages of anything to say about the cucumber. And so you get used to coming up with nonsense. To just say, “Well, that’s one point of view. But we can also look at another point of view, because sometimes people have different points of view and we can look at it. So here I am now going to present what I think might be...”
Derek Sivers
We’re used to doing these nonsense words, but now I try to reverse that and put as few words into the public as possible. So everything I write, the rough draft is extremely verbose. It’s a pile of thought garbage that--I love looking at things from many different angles. So as soon as I say one thing, I challenge it and I look at it from the other point of view. And as soon as I declare something to be true, then I challenge that, and then I ask myself questions. Then I question my answers and it’s 80 pages of nonsense. Okay well, let’s actually be fair, I’ll have like eight pages of nonsense, and then I’ll look at the whole thing when I feel pretty exhausted on a subject and I’ll say, okay, what’s the essential point of what I’m trying to say here? And I’ll often make a simple outline at the top that’s just five bullet points.
Derek Sivers
That’s what I’m really saying. So then I’ll skip the rest and just post the outline. And that’s why most of my blog posts are only like 20 sentences. Because they’re basically just the outline of my thought process on the subject. I learned the hard way running CD Baby. That the more you say, the less people hear. Meaning if you send somebody an email that’s six paragraphs long, almost nobody’s going to read the whole thing. But if you can find a way to make those six paragraphs into four sentences, then they’ll probably read it. They’re way more likely to read it.
Derek Sivers
And I learned that the hard way because I had 2 million customers. And so when I would email everybody an announcement saying, “Hey, there’s this new thing on my site that you can use.” If I said that in too many sentences, like 50,000 people would reply saying, “I don’t get it, how do I do it?” And I’m like, “Oh, it’s right there in the 12th sentence. It says right there, Here’s how to do it.” Well, my fault. I used too many sentences and but it would cost me literally. You get 50,000 emails, I would have to have a staff of 25 people taking ten days to reply to each one of those 50,000 because, fuck me, I’d used 12 sentences.So I learned, All right, I’ve got to say this in four sentences, otherwise I’m going to pay the price. So that’s where I got my succinctness.
Adam
So we talked about vivid imagery. We talked about succinctness. Now let’s talk parenting, and I’ll relate this back real quick for you, Derek. So we’re both dads. And kids ask tremendous questions. I have a six and a half year old daughter and she can ask me the most simple questions. And sometimes she asked me to explain quantum physics and I can’t wrap my head around that. Or let alone make it very succinct for her. So these challenging questions, I try to take that and utilize that throughout my life. It’s the same way if I’m talking with you or a CEO of $1,000,000,000 company, it’s just explain it like I’m five. Have you heard of that?
Derek Sivers
Yeah, of course.
Adam
So it can be helpful for everyone. What are some insights that you’ve learned from your career? So we’re moving a little bit beyond writing, but just from your career about entrepreneurship and how would you explain those concepts to a five year old. For instance, your child. And have you actually started teaching your child any concept of entrepreneurship?
Derek Sivers
Oh, I haven’t, but all right. I can tell you what I would tell him. Entrepreneurship. Okay. Well, first, I would never use that word. That’s an unnecessarily complicated Frenchy word.
Adam
Explain that word to a five year old, then.
Derek Sivers
Okay. So I’d say Just do or make something that your friends really want or need. Do it just because you like making them happy. But if it costs you something to make it, well, then you have to charge them at least what it cost you to make. And if it gets really popular and lots of people want it, you might not be able to do it all yourself. So then you would teach other people how to do or make it for you. But then you can make it whatever you want it to be. So you can make it so if kids--you can make it so kids pay you using funny faces or farts.
Derek Sivers
You can decide that mean people have to pay $1,000,000, but nice people get it for free. You could decide that maybe this thing you make, you’re going to bring it to their house. Or make it so that they have to come over to our house to get it. You could make it like a club. So if somebody buys three things from you, then they can come into your secret hiding place. So I would tell my kid that really, it’s like inventing a new game. It’s fun to see what people like and don’t like. And when you’re sick of it, someday you can stop. You could just stop doing it. Or let some other kids pay you to take it over and keep it going without you.
Adam
So I love everything that you just said. And even when you started saying, give it away for free. So we could talk about your sharing model. I want to get to that in one second, though, Derek, because to take a step back, I love little side questions. So as we talk about parenting and teaching them, what’s something that you’ve been teaching your kiddo this year, though. And this just may resonate with all the other parents out there. But how old’s your kid if you don’t mind sharing and just what’s something that you’ve taught them in the past year?
Derek Sivers
He’s ten and let me think, past year, generosity. Today--okay we’ll just do this morning. I just, an hour ago took him to--he’s on a school holiday right now, just this week. They have school holidays, so he’s doing like an outside, just play in the woods kind of program this week. So we have three pet mice in a cage. And for the first time ever, I just brought the pet mice to the camp today. And he has one of those three that’s his favorite. And the one that’s his favorite is named Demon.
Derek Sivers
So he said, “Okay, but I’m going to let the other kids play with the other two, but not Demon.” And I said, “Okay, imagine this. Imagine if you went to your thing and there was some kid who brought this really cool weapon, but said, ’Only I can use it. None of you can use it. I can hold it and you can look at me holding it, but none of you can hold it.’” I’d say, “You would think that kid is a jerk, wouldn’t you?” And he goes, “Okay, point taken.” So I said, “Don’t worry. Be nice. On the other hand, imagine if that kid with a cool sword said, ’Hey, I’ve got this really cool sword here. Do you want to try it?’ And imagine if that kid actually just let you play with his sword. You would think that was a cool kid. You’d want to be that kid’s friend, because that was really nice of him to let you play with his sword. So you should let the kids play with Demon, don’t worry.” He’s like, “Okay, I’ll try that.” So his mice are with him in the forest right now, and I’ll find out in 5 hours how it went.
Adam
Awesome. I love that. And this is a perfect transition because another thing that I think, it really resonates with me, but you can see it throughout your work. You talk about sharing. Giving in a way, and it’s a model that you have. Now this is very inspiring for me, especially because a few years ago, I learned from an entrepreneur who said, give, give, give, ask. You can give so much. And after a while, then you’ve built up such a great relationship, you’re able to make an ask in some way, one way or another.
Adam
So in one of your chapters of your book, Anything You Want, which I highly recommend folks in the audience to go check out, is about the co-op business model. It’s sharing whatever you’ve got. I want to flip it for a second. And what I mean by that is when one has someone, one of people given you something that has made a big impact on you, and why do you think people are compelled to do some of these acts of kindness just completely out of generosity? I don’t expect that all the time. But some people are just givers. They’re givers. So for you, I know you have these business models of the co-op and sharing, but flip it. When has someone given you something that made a big impact on your life?
Derek Sivers
How old are you?
Adam
37.
Derek Sivers
What year did you get online? Do you remember?
Adam
Well, my dad got me an Apple PC see when I was five or six, so 91. But that wasn’t online, so, 94, 95, maybe. Late 90s.
Derek Sivers
Were you there actually in the early, early days, like 94, 95. Did you get online?
Adam
Yes. That’s me.
Derek Sivers
So the internet had a very different feeling back then. I remember after being on the internet for like a year when people were talking about making money on the internet. I was like, “You don’t make money on the internet. That’s like somebody walking into a library, ’How can we make some money out of this?’ It’s a library? Relax. It’s about learning.” So to me, what I loved about the internet when I first got on in 1994, it was this free, generous sharing place where people would share what they’ve learned.
Derek Sivers
There would be forums like at the time I was running a recording studio in New York City and I was using say like Pro Tools or this test cam reel to reel thing or a machi deck. And you could go ask questions and you could say, “Hey, my Pro Tools card isn’t syncing with my USB bus”--actually they didn’t have a USB, but whatever. It wasn’t sinking with my bus, and somebody was like, “Oh, I’ve had that problem. You need to adjust the word clock here. Like give me a call, here’s my phone number. I’ll help walk you through it.” And just total strangers would just be in there helping each other. Because they felt like it or because it was often reciprocal. Right? Like somebody would help me like that. Work out a technical thing in my recording studio. And then I would turn around and say, I figured out how to trademark my band name. Which was quite hard in the mid nineties. So once I was done, I spent hours creating like a thorough tutorial for everybody else. Like here’s how to trademark your band name. So I did that in return.
Derek Sivers
Same thing with copyright forms and stuff like that. So I think the big answer to your question first, is the generous internet. I have received so many benefits from it, and all of us have. We should be thankful for all these people out there that share what they know. Not just forums where people answer questions like that, but all those people in the world that are writing really helpful articles, usually making no money. They just they’re only getting a little touchy feely good from sharing that.
Derek Sivers
Open source software. Oh my God Linux, SSH, TCP, IP. All the software that helps us talk right now, is all written by people usually doing it for their own self interest, often for free. Sometimes they’re employees of other companies doing it on the side. But all of this software is free, and it was created by millions or billions of man hours of people doing this just because they’re scratching their own itch and then sharing it for free. Oh my God, that’s amazing. So I think we should all be appreciating that every day. It’s very underappreciated and to me it has nothing to do with money. To me, the payment, it can be in a funny faces or farts, but it can also be in just the feeling of connected-ness you get from sharing some software you made with the world and thousands of people using it saying, “Thank you.” That can mean way more to somebody than money.
Adam
Is there one, as you think back, that just really stands out and it could be a software tool, right. An open source. Just something that in a way was given to you, but that you would also pass along and say, Hey, folks in the audience and whoever listens to this in the future, here’s one thing that was given to me, and I absolutely love it. And I would easily, in a heartbeat pass it on to you as well.
Derek Sivers
Oh, it’s hard for me to even narrow it down. The Ruby programming language, the SQL, the PostgreSQL Database, the Linux operating system, the SSH connection. It’s everything. I could just keep rattling acronyms and names all day. Even big ones like The Audacity Audio Editor, the Calibe Ebook software. These things are often made by one person just doing it to be nice.
Adam
I love that. I absolutely love that. Derek. All right, let’s keep this conversation rock and rolling. I’m having so much fun with you, Derek. One thing that I was shocked to find out about you as I was just learning more and more over this time. For folks, if you know about Derek or of course, if you’re learning about his story, when you’re a musician and you’re there on stage or you’re there giving a TEDx talk, you seemed extroverted to me. Yet as I found out more about you. You’re very much introverted.
Adam
So this is a fascinating topic for me. And it’s something that even as I host these conversations on Twitter and other platforms as well, Twitter’s come to me and other platforms and said, “Adam, you’re great having conversations and helping people engage and connect. What else can you do to help pull some people out? Because there are lots of introverts out there and especially on the platform like Twitter.” Now, I don’t want to force anything. It’s just whatever makes people feel the most comfortable. At the same time, I’m wondering what are some of the strengths of an introvert? How do you embrace them? And then at the same time, how can introverts share or give more about themselves to the world if they wish to?
Derek Sivers
Did you read the book Quiet by Susan Kane?
Adam
I interviewed Susan Kane for that book a year ago, September 30th, 2021. So, yes, I did.
Derek Sivers
All right, cool. So what I loved about the book Quiet, is that she defined introvert and extrovert, not as you being shy or not being around other people or something, but in terms of sensory input. That extroverts require eight lemon drops, eight drops of lemon juice on their tongue to require the same amount of stimulation that an introvert gets from two lemon drops. They just measured this with neural response or whatever. So once I heard that, I went, Oh, see that makes so much more sense to me. That’s why I prefer a great book to a great party. That’s why Burning Man sounds like hell to me.
Derek Sivers
Because I don’t want that much stimulation. I really like ideas. I really like solitude. I really like reflection. So I think that introverts tend to come up with more interesting ideas since they’re more likely to be alone and be reflective. Their ideas are not crowd think. Because they’re often not in a crowd. They’re by themselves. I think introverts give more time for quiet reflection, which is where most real learning and insight happens. I think you can take in input, but if you’re not giving yourself time for reflection, then you’re not really internalizing anything. You’re not really coming up with your own thoughts on things. If you don’t put aside time for reflection. I think that when you talk about the strengths of introverts, I think that most great things are created by introverts.
Adam
So here’s a question. It’s kind of a problem solving question for you, because I’ll relate it back to Twitter. For instance, right here in this room, there was something that I read from you in the past year where I think you were talking about a party. It might have been the fact that if you’re hosting a party, even though you think the attention is on you, you can kind of defer it outward. Does that resonate with you? Does that does that sound familiar?
Derek Sivers
Yeah.
Adam
I thought about--the second I read that it clicked. It made me feel like we’re in this room right now. I’m sure there’s introverts in the audience. I’m sure some of them have questions, but at the same time they’re not going to raise their hand. They may be too shy to come up here on stage, but it made me think, Okay, Adam, I’m an extrovert and I’m here. You’re here on stage, Derek. What if I had a co host. Which this platform is able to do. I can invite someone up. I could make you a co host, Derek. But if I made them a co host, then it may not feel like the attention is all on them because Adam is here. The best of live audio and you’re here, Derek. We’re asking you questions. It would still make them feel like they’re part of the conversation without feeling like all the attention is on them. What are your thoughts on that? Does that even make sense or not? Am I just reading into it the wrong way?
Derek Sivers
It makes sense, but I think it’s a misunderstanding of the introvert motivation. I know a lot of musicians and most of them are introverts, but yet they love being on stage and so do I. Because when you’re on stage, you can you can control the interaction. In fact, it’s really a great way to get up on stage for one hour or two hours or whatever it may be, connect with hundreds of people. In 2 hours, but kind of on your terms and then you step off stage. You don’t join the after party. If you go back to your hotel room and you go, Oh. And it’s wonderful. It’s actually the perfect balance. So I think it’s a misunderstanding to think that introverts don’t want attention or don’t want to be on stage.
Adam
Do you have any advice? What I mean by that is, I host a lot of these conversations. I bring people up from the audience. Sometimes I even get DMs saying, “Hey, Adam, can you ask this for me? I just don’t feel comfortable on stage.” But I feel like they sometimes want to. Is there something that you utilize as a tip or trick or something like that that folks here even right now listening to you can go utilize whether they join another Twitter space or whether they want to go give another TEDx talk, you know what I mean?
Derek Sivers
Yes. Okay. So sorry. The subject of introvert/extrovert was actually distracting because what you’re asking has nothing to do with that. That’s just about self confidence and feeling shy and getting over yourself. So it helps to remember, for example, when you go to a party and you walk into a party, imagine it’s like a business event, like networking event or something that you went to, and you walk in and you know nobody. You think, “Oh, I just want somebody nice to come up to me and make a conversation so that I don’t have to be the one to approach.”
Derek Sivers
Well, guess what? That’s what most people are thinking. Everyone wants someone else to break the ice. And once you realize that, Okay, it’s not going to be pleasant for anybody to be the one to start. So I’m just going to do this as a favor and just get over any self confidence hurdles I may have. Just do it because it’s the right thing to do. I’ll tell you one tiny example of that actual real example is the first time I ever went to TED. Not a TEDx, but the big, giant, expensive, intimidating main stage TED in California. I had this. I went in and didn’t know anybody and just was like a fly on the wall and hardly talked to anybody after three days.
Derek Sivers
And I left thinking, “God, I really screwed that up.” I spent, what, $6,000 to be there? And I didn’t meet anybody. And I watched some talks, but I really did that wrong. And I’m kicking myself and I felt so much regret. So the next time I went to TED, I was like, All right, I’m going to do this. It’s going to be really uncomfortable. But here we go. So I walked in on the opening day. People are just arriving and getting situated. And I just saw somebody sitting at a table alone. And I said, All right, here we go. And I walked up and I said, “Hi, what are you doing here? Where’d you come from?” And we talked and talked, and she’s from Sofia, Bulgaria, and she runs a blog. That she calls herself a curator. And her name was Maria. We got to be friends. We hung out for the rest of the conference, and I kept doing this to people. So, Maria, her name is Maria Popova. A lot of you know her from her famous blog Brain Pickings. Which is now called the--I forget the new name. It’s been Brain Pickings for like a year. So Maria Popova is like super famous online in her own right.
Derek Sivers
And she was just sitting alone at a table, just needing somebody else to break the ice. So I’m so glad that I did that. And it’s the same with a dozen other people. I’ve even got a little story in my book called Your Music and People about how I was at a music conference when I was younger, and I was just totally intimidated as a musician by all these famous people and executives that could make or break my career. But there was some dude that was just like sitting in the pool with his feet in the pool, and I just sat down next to him. I was like, Ha! I said, “It’s so nice to just get out of that room.” He’s like, “Yeah.” We talked for a bit, and I found out later when he said goodbye that he was the vice president of A&M Records or something. And we’ve been friends ever since. And it just helps you to keep this rule of thumb that everyone is waiting for someone else to break the ice and just take it on yourself. Even though it’s uncomfortable, it’s the right thing to do. Same thing with asking a question here on our live Twitter thing. So some of you sitting there, I hope you’re going to pipe in and ask a question.
Adam
Yes. And are you okay with that, Derek?
Derek Sivers
Yeah, let’s do it.
Adam
Okay. Hey, folks, if you’re in the audience, if you’re listening, if you have a question for Derek, go ahead. Raise your hand. It’s that little button on bottom left says, “Request to Speak”. We’ll have a queue and then I’ll bring you up in just a moment. And while we wait for some people to do that, I have a question about--all of this is fantastic. And something I’ve learned from you is using the ability to reflect. And you once said, I’ll quote you here. “I feel like the reflection time is when you really learn. The moment when you read somebody else’s idea. That’s a wow moment, but you don’t really learn it until you’ve put aside the time to reflect on it.” End quote.
Derek Sivers
Wait where did I say that? I don’t remember saying that.
Adam
I think you actually said it in a podcast about two years ago with Shane Parrish.
Derek Sivers
Wow, cool. I think that’s true. I just didn’t know that I had put that into writing anywhere, so I guess I haven’t yet. Sorry. Go ahead.
Adam
I think it was part of a transcript. I listen to the whole podcast and I noticed that I pulled it out. That’s where I got it from. But it makes me think, Okay, I love this. I want to ask you, Derek, what are you reflecting on this year? What new perspective have you been thinking about? What have you found and started thinking about just in the last year, in 2022?
Derek Sivers
Something that’s fascinating to me. You know what’s funny, if you would have asked this two weeks ago, maybe even ten days ago, I would have said, “I don’t know.” And that would have been the end of that. But actually, the idea that’s currently fascinating me and has actually been fascinating to me for years, but I’ve just decided to dive deeply into. Is this idea of Useful Not True. It’s like a kick I’ve just had for years of Useful Not True to me is this shorthand for saying that the things that we choose to believe aren’t necessarily true.
Derek Sivers
Sometimes we know they’re not true, but they’re useful to us to believe them. And I feel that’s how we should judge our beliefs. Is not by whether they’re true or not, but whether they’re useful for us. So I’ll just pick an example. A few years ago, I was reading a book about understanding how other people think. And the book made a great point when it said that people often assume that the other gender is way more different from them. Like men think women are from what is it? Venus and women think men are from Mars? But his point was that the differences between men and the differences between women are much greater than the average difference between men and women.
Derek Sivers
So, in fact, most of us have a bias towards thinking that the other sex is alien. And so to overcome that bias, I decided to believe that men and women are the same. And I know that that’s a deliberately overcompensating belief. I know they’re not exactly the same, but I’m going to choose to believe that they’re exactly the same, to help compensate for my cognitive bias or whatever you call that? The bias that assumes the opposite. So when I posted that on my site, I think the article is at sive.rs/MW. For men and women, I like short URLs. Because of just this. Because I can say them out loud.
Adam
By the way, not to digress, you wrote a tremendous article on short URLs and domain names. I mean, you are a library of information by the way.
Derek Sivers
So when I posted that a bunch of people got upset saying, “That’s not true. There are biological differences. There are differences in the brain. That’s just ridiculous. It’s not true.” And I said, I don’t care that it’s not true. That’s not the point. You’re focusing on the wrong thing. Doesn’t matter whether it’s true, it’s whether it works for you. Maybe you have no problem with this bias. Maybe you don’t want to understand the other sex better and you want to just think that they’re completely alien. If so, then this belief does not work for you. Fine.
Derek Sivers
But for me, this is what I need. This belief works for me. I know it’s not true. I’m choosing to believe it anyway. So I have like 20 more examples of this and I was just about to post another one. Two weeks ago I was posting an article about confabulation. Which I just think is an interesting thing about people making up reasons for why we do things, without even understanding that those reasons aren’t true. And at the end, I was just about to say, “On the other hand, if the belief works for you, then it doesn’t matter whether it’s true or not.” And I was like, Oh damn, see, there I go again. Useful or true. This same idea has been fascinating me for years. Dammit, it’s time that I dive into this and now I really want to understand it.
Derek Sivers
So I reached out to some people I know that are actual philosophers or study philosophy. So there’s this woman, Sharon Kaye in University of Ohio, I think, wrote the best book I’ve ever found. If you want to talk about a clear writer, look up Sharon Kaye K-A-Y-E. I hope I got her name right. If you go to my book list, it’s in a recent book about an overview of philosophy. Oh my God, the clearest writer I have ever read in my life. She’s amazing. So I reached out to her after I finished the book, and I just said essentially that, “Oh my God, you’re the clearest writer I’ve ever read. And thank you for existing and thank you for making this book.” And so I just reached out to her last week, what is this Useful Not True thing? I’m sure that some philosopher must have dove into this. And she said, Ah, that’s pragmatism. Go look at this Wikipedia page, look at this, look into these four philosophers and learn about pragmatism. And so I’ve just this week started diving into learning about what past people have thought about this subject, which appears to be called pragmatism.
Derek Sivers
I had no idea, but I’m learning more about it and also learning in more ways that I think it applies. For example, since we’re talking parenting earlier, kids. When kids are saying, “Oh no, there’s a monster in the hallway. Here, hide under the couch.” They know there’s not actually a monster in the hallway. But it’s fun to think that there is. So why is it that as adults that we shut that off and say like, “Well, that’s not true. There’s not a monster in the hallway, you’re wrong.” No, but I want to believe this. It’s fun. In fact, why not just adopt beliefs just because they’re fun. Pick up a book on philosophy or even a religion that you’ve never even--that you know nothing about. Pick up a book on Baha’i or Jainism or something. And why not just learn about it and see if you can adopt some of those beliefs or practices just for fun, like a kid hiding under the couch?
Adam
I absolutely love this, Derek. This is fantastic. I at least have one more question, but I want to make sure that we use the power of live audio and we connect with some of your fans, some of the audience members here. We’ve got two of them up here on stage. Quick question, Derek. I want to be very respectful of your time. I know I said 45 minutes or so. We’re about 5 minutes away. Can you stay a little long?
Derek Sivers
Yeah, I’m fine.
Adam
Okay, cool. All right. First person I have had up on stage, I think it’s Tarek. Am I saying it correctly or if not, I’m very sorry, but thanks for joining us. What’s on your mind today?
Tarek
Hello. Thanks for hosting this space. Big fan of Derek I’ve got all of his books, especially that How To Live. It was just absolutely phenomenal. I was reading the first chapter and I was like, “Derek’s lost his mind.” Then I’d read the next chapter and I say, “Whoa, I just lost my mind.” And then I would go back and forth. It was absolutely brilliant how you wrote that book. It really confused me. I was like screaming at my wife, said, “I thought I understood Derek.” And then you go to the next chapter and it’s like, “Oh, I see what he’s saying here.” So I really appreciate that. And I think your writing is absolutely clear and phenomenal. I don’t know much about that lady, but I’ll definitely look into it. But your writing is absolutely clear as well.
Tarek
A question I wanted to ask Derek, if you don’t mind is, as a surgeon who deals with a lot of cancer and cancer diagnoses and this idea of, some patients, they come in with these fantastical beliefs that, I really don’t need chemo, I really don’t need this. I’m just going to do some CBD oil or I’m going to get some herb, some thistle or something like this. And even though the overwhelming data show that maybe that’s not the greatest idea. Not to say you can’t do that in conjecture, but sometimes you have these belief systems that may work if it’s not sometimes with regards to a life or death situation. How do you reconcile a belief that may certainly help you in a belief that may certainly hurt you?
Derek Sivers
I actually used to be one of those people, so my mind got changed by one single idea. And it was surprisingly shared by Darren Brown. The British magician wrote a book called “Tricks of the Mind” and Chapter six, he used to dispel sloppy thinking, or I forget how he called it. He talked about alternative medicine and he said what we call alternative medicine means something that hasn’t been proven yet. He uses Reiki healing as an example and he said, “If someone could prove that Reiki healing works, they would change the whole world. They would win the Nobel Prize. They would be a multi-billionaire. They would change the world. The stakes are extremely high for anyone to just show that Reiki works. Unfortunately, it hasn’t been proven yet.”
Derek Sivers
He said, “I am completely open to the idea that it’ll be proven someday. If somebody proves it, that would be wonderful. But it hasn’t been proven yet.” So he said, “Once something has been proven, we don’t call it alternative medicine anymore. You know what we call it? Medicine. Medicine is just the collection of what’s been proven to work.” And he said, “So this choice to only believe in alternative medicine is a choice to only believe in what doesn’t work.” And even though, one minute before reading that chapter, I was completely one of those people.
Derek Sivers
I was like, “Yeah, big business pharmaceuticals. They’re trying to make money off of me there. I don’t trust any of them. I’m only going to trust alternative medicine.” And then one minute after reading that, I was like, “Oh, my God. That’s a great point.” Just like that changed my mind on the subject. I’d never thought about it that way. So sometimes one great idea like that can help. And your timing is perfect for asking this because just yesterday I was listening to a podcast, which is not a new podcast. But it’s a new discovery for me. It’s called EconTalk. The host, I believe, is Russ Roberts. It is amazing. It’s so good. And he brings on amazing guests and they really get into meaning of life type stuff. And it’s so good. I think maybe if I ever heard of it before, I just assumed they were going to talk economics. But, oh, my God, he’s talking about life. And he just recently had a guest on, I don’t have his name right here. I don’t want to flip this on my phone and switch out of the app. I wouldn’t be surprised if it drops the call or something.
Derek Sivers
So instead, anybody getting this email me, go to my website, there’s a contact page. My email address is right there on it. Email me to find out the name of this podcast, because just yesterday I was listening to this amazing podcast with a guy who studied what it takes to change people’s minds, and he used the exact example you’re talking about, and he does something called, what is it called canvassing? I was listening to it while driving, so I don’t have the notes. But it’s one of those things where I go get the transcript and get the guy’s book.
Derek Sivers
In short, he said, one of the most effective things you can do is when somebody tells you a belief like that. Like, I only trust acupuncture. You can just open-mindedly ask them why. And you can say, “Well, how strongly do you believe that that is the only way? On a scale of 0 to 10.” And if they say anything less than a ten, even if they say eight, you can say, “Oh, well, why isn’t it a ten? And then they will actually give their own counterarguments, which introduces the seed of disbelief themselves without it having to come from you.” So anyway, it’s fascinating idea. Anybody email me and I’ll email you the link to that interview and have more details when I’m not just standing up holding the phone to my face.
Adam
I think I found it. Derek Was it David McRaney.
Derek Sivers
Yes.
Adam
I Googled canvassing, and that’s the one that popped up.
Derek Sivers
Yes, thank you. That’s the one. David McRaney On Econtalk.
Adam
I’ll put some of these notes together as well, and I’ll post it out later. And I’ll send it to you, too, Derek.
Derek Sivers
And while you’re at it, by the way, I did look up the book that I mentioned the clearest writer I’ve ever read. Sharon Kaye. And the book of hers that I read is called “Philosophy A Complete Introduction” and just, Oh my God, the clearest writer you’ll ever read. I highly recommend it.
Adam
Love it. Great question. So thank you for asking. And let’s keep moving this along. So it’s fantastic conversation. Andy, you’ve been waiting so patiently. Thank you so much. What’s on your mind?
Andy
Thank you so much. Hey, Derek, this is Andy and we’ve talked through email a while back. You’re my favorite writer. And the question that I have today is around creative processes. So I’m curious, how has your creative process evolved over over the past couple of years? I know this is like a broad question and it’s different for everyone, so I would love to hear how we can learn from your journey of finding a process that works for you, especially as someone starting out. Thank you.
Derek Sivers
Well, sorry. Can I ask you to give more detail? When you say creative process on just particularly writing an article or everything? How do you mean?
Andy
Yeah, I mean in general, but specifically, I guess writing. Because I also want to write more too so I think that’s what I want to learn.
Derek Sivers
Okay. This I can talk about. It’s like I said earlier, when he was asking about my rough draft--Oh, sorry, when I was talking about my rough draft versus my succinct final output. So I highly recommend picking any subject that interests you and just opening a text document and just looking at it from every angle. Just keep your fingers on the keys, keep moving. Don’t stop to get distracted. Even if you want to surf the web to look to see what somebody else has to say on this subject. Just take a second and imagine what somebody else might say on this subject. Imagine what somebody, the opposite of you might say on this subject. Somebody from an opposite demographic or frame of mind and just keep writing.
Derek Sivers
The most important thing is to keep asking yourself questions like whenever you say, I like sunny days because I like the blue sky. And the next thing you’d say, Well, is that really true? Really? Is that really the reason the blue sky? If it was a red sky, I wouldn’t like it anymore. Or have I ever enjoyed a day where there were clouds in the sky? So what might it be? It might be something else then. And then you come up with many, many options of things it could be. And you try to get to the essence of it. And again, when even along the way, you’ll come up with some answers. So you start questioning those. Also, this is just like a little hack I should write about more soon.
Derek Sivers
It really helps to write more in questions than in answers. I was feeling frustrated a few months ago and scheduled a call with a wise person I know. And before the call I had to ask myself, What is it that I really want to ask him? Is it about something[unintelligible] Is that really the problem? Am I expecting him to have some insight into this? Do I need a particular insight into this? What do I really need? Do I need an answer or do I need more perspectives? How can I get more perspectives? Where do perspectives come from? Aren’t they just--haven’t I read enough in the past that I can come up with perspectives myself?
Derek Sivers
And do you hear it’s like the entire six pages in my journal was only questions. Literally every line ended in a question mark. And I found that so much more useful than writing answers where we feel this premature need to come to some conclusion. Let’s get this done with. Let’s finish this up. Let’s decide the answer. Instead no, you keep it open as long as you can. And keep looking at the opposite side. And then like I said earlier, only after you feel completely exhausted on the subject, you say, “Okay, well, what have I learned? What’s what’s the gist that would be worth sharing with someone else.” And then you just share that bit. You summarize it and share the summary. That’s my main creative process, for what it’s worth.
Andy
Got it. Thank you so much. That reminds me of your article on how do you ask your mentors for help.
Derek Sivers
Yes, very similar.
Adam
Thank you, Andy. Great question. All right. Well, this has been a fantastic conversation. I have one more question for you, Derek. And it’s a goofy little thing, but it’s actually the way I noticed you many, many years ago. I was listening to all of Tim Ferriss’ podcasts and the thing that you brought up, which is popular you already know about it is, the best email you’ve ever written. And so for folks in the audience, just a quick rundown. This is something that Derek, you used when you were running CD Baby. And it was something that you were sending us an automated email after someone made an order or there were customer shipments. And if you don’t mind me reading one real quickly and then I’ll get to my question.
Adam
You said this was you putting it into the email. You said “Your CD has been gently taken from our CD Baby shelves with sterilized contamination free gloves, and placed onto a satin pillow. A team of 50 employees inspected your CD and polished it to make sure it was in the best possible condition before mailing. Our packing specialists from Japan lit a candle and a hush fell over the crowd as you put your CD into the finest gold line box that money can buy. We all had a wonderful celebration afterwards and the whole party marched down the street to the post office where the entire town of Portland waved, bon voyage your package on its way to you in our private CD Baby Jet on this day.” Friday, the sixth or whatever it may have been.
Adam
Holy how Derek! This changed my world and obviously led me down a rabbit hole of all the things that you create. I absolutely love it. So I had a different question for this, but I’m going to put you on the spot. I hope that’s okay. If you could come up with something like that for this room right now, for the listeners that are in here and they’re very special. There’s only so many of us here listening t you live at the moment. I’m curious if you were to come up with something at the top of your head as kind of a goodbye, a bon voyage message to all of us here in this room right now, is that something that you can do on the fly? And if so, what might it sound like as we all say goodbye?
Derek Sivers
Yeah, anybody can. I think it’s not that special. It’s just weird that--sorry, I’m being a little meta about your question, but when you asked what I would tell my kid about entrepreneurship, you heard I was really emphasizing the importance of just doing it however you want. You don’t have to imitate others. And I think a lot of us have this insecurity when we do something, we just look around where we say, “Well, I want to do a podcast. How are other people doing podcasts? Well, I should just do it like this. Well, what kind of microphone is everybody else using? Well, I guess I should use that black cylinder microphone that everybody uses. I want to be a YouTuber. Okay, I guess I should kind of get a room and just put some bookshelves in the background in a plant and some dim lighting. I mean, that’s what everybody does. I want to make a business. How should I do it? I guess I should just do it like everybody else does.” And it’s really sad, I think, to have this monoculture in any given field where everybody’s just doing it like everybody else.
Derek Sivers
I look over my kid’s shoulder when he’s on YouTube and that thing of reaction videos, of just like every little screen capture has to be like somebody’s face going, Oh. With the open mouth and looking surprised. And it’s like every single person is doing that. So I think it’s not that that email I came up with is so amazing because it’s not it’s just a little bit of--it took me 5 minutes, a bit of fluff, but it’s just the lesson was that you don’t have to be normal. You could just do things however you want. So yeah, I think if I was to just do an unusual goodbye here, I just tell all right, everybody, shut up, hang up. Put your phone down. Turn it off. Walk away. Ignore all this. Get outside. Please, just delete Twitter from your phones. It’s not helping you. It’s hurting you. Stop it. Delete your accounts. Get off Gmail. Stop, goodbye. Please hang up. Turn off your devices. Walk away. Go away.
Adam
I love it. I love it. And for the record, folks, by the way, Derek, it took me over a year of us talking and you’re finally here. I’m so excited. But you messaged me the other day and you said, “For the record, this is the first time I’ve downloaded a social media app and you’ll probably delete it right after this.”
Derek Sivers
I am going to. I was not happy about it, but I’m like, all right, I’ll do it for you. So I installed Twitter yesterday and I’m going to delete it in one minute.
Adam
You did it for all of us Derek. I always like to recap everything that we cover today. I mean, there’s so many great insights about storytelling and utilizing vivid imagery. Of course, writing succinctly and editing the heck out of your work. We talked about entrepreneurship and teaching our kiddos about generosity and sharing. We talked about introversion and breaking the ice. We talked about reflection and what you said being Useful Not True, you folks, you can dive into it. I’m recording this so you can listen again later. We talked about alternative medicine and we talked about creative processes. I mean, holy cow, we talked about a lot. And then finally at the end, you don’t have to imitate others. Derek Sivers This is an absolute pleasure. It’s an honor. Thank you so much for joining us today.
Derek Sivers
Great. Thanks for having me. And anybody of course, just send me an email, go to my website, send an email and say hello.
Adam
He will really respond. I can guarantee it. All right, Derek, go to delete that app. I really appreciate this, once again, thank you for the opportunity. I hope everyone had fun. And again, my name is Adam Soccolich, also known as the best of live Audio. I’m glad everyone joined today and thank you again, Derek Sivers.
Derek Sivers
Thanks, Adam.
Adam
Take care. Bye.