Musicians Tip Jar
host: Chris Webb
circus experience, musicians tip jar, creative business strategies, importance of gratitude, /now page
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Transcript:
Derek Sivers
Welcome to musicians tip jar Derek Sivers. Thank you. At first you were starting with the adjectives. I went, is that me? Oh, that is me. I'm a maniac. Yeah, I love that you have this way with your writing of always finding the point and making that the focus. I think a lot of us have a harder time doing that, but there's so much in just that little intro that I want to ask that I don't think we have time for, but the one. Can I just ask what you did in the circus? Oh yeah. It's actually a fun story. Okay, you know what? It's a beautiful intro to start this interview with because it's directly related to musicians tip Jar mission. So imagine this I was 17 years old. I had just moved from Chicago to Boston to attend Berklee School of Music, and I was in a band with this guy that was a year older than me, and had been doing more gigging around Boston already. He was a bass player, and when I say in a band with, I mean, we were doing some gigs together at Berklee School of Music. So one day he turns to me and he's just like, uh. I got offered this gig to play at a pig show in Vermont for 75 bucks. I don't want to do it. Do you want to do it? I was like, hell yeah.
Derek Sivers
75 bucks, my first paying gig. Fuck, yeah. Count me in. So he gave me the information, and it turns out it's like a $50 round trip bus trip from Boston up to Vermont to go to this pig show. And the guy hiring me is just really vague. He's just like, yeah, it's a pig show. So, um, yeah, you're a musician, right? So put on your guitar and walk around and entertain the crowd. You know, you're a roving musician. Let me know how it goes. He's not even going to be there. So they just tell me where to go. I catch this bus up to Vermont. I don't even remember how I got from the bus station to the pig show. Maybe somebody picked me up. Uh, I go to this pig show. I walk around with a guitar on my neck, and I'm just playing guitar for two hours until somebody comes and thanks me and takes me back to the bus station. And it's like, yes, my first paying gig. I was so psyched. Um, but then the guy that hired me a couple days later said, uh, hey, so, uh, I heard good things about you from the pig show. They said you did a good job. So, look, I've got this circus, and the musician just quit, so I need a new musician.
Derek Sivers
So why don't you come out and join the circus? And it was a, like, a six person, circus like performing troupe based in western Massachusetts. And I was in Boston, which is eastern Massachusetts. So it was always like a two hour bus each way to go out to these gigs. And so first they just said, all right, well, you need to learn some kid songs. You know, we performed for audiences like age 3 to 12, so learn some kids songs. So I went down to the record store. We used to have record stores, um, and there was a, an album of kids songs by Barry Luis Polisar that was called like Naughty Songs for kids. And I was like, now that's more my style. I don't want to play, you know, if you're happy and you know it, clap your hands. I want to do something cool. So there were songs like don't stick your finger up Your nose, Never Hit Your Sister with a Frying Pan, and songs like that. So I learned songs by Barry Luis Pellicer, who later became one of my clients, which was really touching, but that was much later. Um, and I would just perform them to audiences of kids, like 20 to 200 kids. I'd play these songs, and then I ended up turning them into skits to like, get kids up on stage to perform.
Derek Sivers
Uh, don't stick your finger up your nose or whatever. But then also, when I joined the circus, they said, hey, so the, uh, the previous musician used to kind of go out and open the show with the opening song and close the show with the closing song, and eventually they said, and he would go out in between every act and introduce the next act. So it turns out at the age of 18, I was basically the ringleader, MC, musician of a circus, and that was my first paying gig. It was wonderful. Wow. I did ended up doing it for ten years. My $75 a show, I just kind of increased my value until eventually it became $300 per show. And this is in $1,990. Um, and eventually became my full time living. I was like, making a living and paying my rent in New York City by being a musician, emcee of a small circus in Massachusetts. Wow. The guy that gave me the first $75 gig. Like, you never know what little tiny gig is going to turn into a bigger thing. And that's like, I think, like, early in your career, it's best to say yes to everything because you never know what little tiny thing is going to turn into a bigger thing.
Dave Tamkin
I was going to say the exact same thing.
Chris Webb
We preach a lot about how that's kind of like the trend is always start by saying yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. And as you gain it, you start to say no, no, no. Right. Like yes, learn what to say no to. You probably wouldn't go back to the circus now would you?
Derek Sivers
No. It might be fun someday to start my own circus. Like now that I know what was involved, but it was also, you know, like, I don't think it would work in Colorado where you guys are like, it was definitely like the northeast corner of the U.S. is very densely populated. So it made sense, like we would perform in a different town every day or every week. Um, and there's just a lot of population in that corner of the country. Whereas like in places that are more spread out in the West, it might not make sense. Mhm.
Chris Webb
And maybe that time period too. Right now. Nowadays. Yeah. Yeah. Everybody wants to see you be able to like bend yourself in half at a circus now. Right. Like Cirque du Soleil style. Yeah.
Derek Sivers
Yeah.
Chris Webb
I definitely can't do that either. Um, so. Not yet. Yeah. That's right. I do do yoga sometimes.
Derek Sivers
Don't give up. That's right.
Dave Tamkin
He's been stretching.
Chris Webb
Well, we are so excited to have you here at Musicians Tip Jar and to discuss some of the money and business thoughts from your book. So the book is called Your Music and People. So can we start right with the title and just kind of give us a little overview of how that title came about.
Derek Sivers
The book is coming, so you can tell from my initial story that I'm coming from the point of view of a musician. But along the way, in what I was like 30, I started selling my CD online and then friends asked how I did it, and I said, well, here, I'll do it for you as a favor. And that grew into CD, baby. So after I'd been running CD baby for a few years, I felt like I was now on the other side of the music industry. Right. I was I was an insider. I was talking with people in the record labels and radio stations and seeing how things got done. So I felt like I was like a spy inside the industry. But I was in direct communication with all of these musicians because of CD baby. So I ended up telling musicians what I was discovering from the inside of the music industry and from just being like the guy on the other side of the counter, in a way, at CD baby selling CDs to fans. So your Music and people is really a book of basically how to connect with your audience better, how to sell more music, but how to be remembered better? How to be more effective in your actions? How not to waste your effort? Yeah.
Derek Sivers
How to be more effective. So then the title itself, your music and people I mean, your music is obvious. Um, but essentially I just realized most of these things come down to counterintuitive people tips like tips on connecting with people, because, yeah, it can be really counterintuitive, like the the psychology of marketing, the psychology of connecting with people, and even the word marketing. We often mistakenly think marketing means spamming and advertising and announcing, but marketing can often mean just being considerate and like thinking of it from the other person's point of view. When somebody goes out to a concert at a club on a Thursday night, what are they really hoping to get out of that event when they leave? What would be a considerate way of helping them remember what they saw tonight? It's thinking it's being considerate and thinking of everything from the other person's point of view. To me, that's what marketing really is. It's it's being considerate. So that's why the subtitle of the book is Creative and Considerate Fame, because it's also about not doing things in the normal way and being creative, which in, in a meta sense is very considerate. Yeah.
Chris Webb
And I got that. I read the book twice now, because the first time I felt like I wanted to just like absorb it and the, the small chapter style is really nice for that. It's really nice. And also, this was the first book that I had experienced the website attached to each chapter concept, um, which I don't know if you came up with that or if someone else gave you the idea, but it's really great to expand it. Cool.
Derek Sivers
Yeah. You know what? You're actually the first person who's said that they like that. Um, I've never heard somebody say they liked it before. It's this thing that I put so much effort into doing, into having a separate URL for each chapter. And, and it was like a lot of work to get the printer to include them in the footnotes down by the page numbers. And, you know, crickets just got total silence. Nobody seems to care until you right now.
Chris Webb
I mean, I've been going to the. You're welcome. Yeah. When you go to those sites, there are plenty of people commenting on them. Yeah. And and I you know, I like how you left it open. Be like, let's discuss it further. And it's by far the easiest way to make that happen that I found that I've seen anyone do so. Uh, really impressive. So we're going to ask a couple questions just about about your experience, uh, through this industry. First, um, one of those is that you have worn a lot of hats in the creative world over the years and as well as lived in a lot of different places. Right. Do you find that artists can generally take the same approach to making a living in most places that you've spent time?
Derek Sivers
If the most places I had lived were places like Sweden, Argentina and New Zealand, then I'd think that it might be the same. But because the places I lived were Chicago, Boston, New York City, Portland, Los Angeles, San Francisco, Singapore, New Zealand, um, there's a clear outlier of LA and New York, right? Like so many things I did in my career only happened because I was in New York City. Um, when I was in L.A., I, um, I didn't move to LA until I was running CD baby. So I never was in L.A. as a musician, but, I mean, I, I knew a lot of musicians in L.A., but I was only a professional musician myself in Boston and New York. There is. Okay. In my ideal world, we would all be able to live anywhere. We'd all be able to live in whatever nature Paradise you wanted to live in and use the internet to connect with the world. But I got to admit, even though that's the world I would like to see, there's something about being physically present, living in New York City or Los Angeles that just does wonders for your career. Um, so many people I know that are actually not great musicians, but just okay musicians, right? Get amazing income from having their music played all over film and TV just because they live in LA.
Derek Sivers
Like just because they happen to live in the place where these movies and TV shows are being made. They get their music all over it just because they're there. They just know somebody who works there and somebody brings it in. And same thing with New York City, but in a more diverse way. There's so many records being made in New York City, so many just deals happening and money flowing that, uh, like, for example, I ended up getting a great gig playing guitar for this Japanese pop star when I was 22 years old. Um, it was an amazing gig. You know, at the age of 22, I was playing to stadiums of 10,000 people across Japan for a solid month. Um, and it was just because I lived in New York City. My roommate was an assistant engineer at a recording studio where this musician was recording. And so my roommate, the assistant engineer, mentioned it to the recording artist that his roommate was a guitarist. And, you know, that's how I got the gig, just because I was physically present there. So I think that, um, if you are young and ambitious and listening to this, uh, you should move to New York City, Los Angeles, maybe London, maybe Nashville is like AARP. Um, but really just L.A.
Derek Sivers
and New York. So many things happen there you just can't even describe, like, what leaps and bounds your career will take just by physically being there and then making a point of meeting everybody once you're there, but just not even just visiting. But physically living there makes all the difference in the world. So no, there are not a lot of similarities between New York City and say, uh, New Zealand or even Singapore. Singapore is a 6 million people in a city. There's a lot of money flowing there, but it's all in the world of finance. There's like nothing going on with music in the arts there. That's interesting. Yeah, it surprised me too. I just assumed that it would have a whole local music scene, but really not. Yeah. Um, it just doesn't click with the local culture. Um, probably the same thing with, you know, Zurich or, uh, places like that. Whereas on the other hand, um, Reykjavik, Iceland is only a few hundred thousand people. But there's a lot going on musically in Reykjavik, Iceland. It's just a real creative hotbed. So, um, but probably not. You know, it's probably all export. There's not actually, like, a lot of money to be made in Reykjavik, Iceland, making music, but it's a creative hotbed. So anyway, yeah, every place has their own local thing.
Chris Webb
It's really, really fascinating to me that that no matter where you are though, if you just find a way, if you get involved, you do tend to find a way to at least make it your living. Um, and, um, you've emphasized the importance of being a competent novice at business and building your team. Can you give us some examples of this? In your experience, when you were building CD baby Competent.
Derek Sivers
Novice to me means that you don't have to hire the best booking agent. For example, you could just learn. You could read one book about how to book gigs and then just do what it says, and you'll probably be good enough to be a part time booking agent, whether for yourself or for others, you know. So even if you've got a friend that is somewhat ambitious but feeling a little lost and not sure what they want to do when they like music. There's not a big difference between the professional booking agent and the novice. You know, like somebody who's basically just read two books on it and just said, let's give this a go, let's try it. Um, not a huge difference. There will be some lessons they'll have to learn from actual interaction with, uh, the target audience, you know, the venues. Um, but I think we need to kind of lower the pedestals that we have people on thinking that we need to only work with the the best of the best. So, uh, competent novice for yourself, though, means like, kind of like we know how to drive, right? Okay. Most people over the age of 18 or 20 know how to drive a car. We're not expert drivers. We're not F1 formula racers, but we know how to drive a car. And I think that we should have those kinds of skills when it comes to say like just tech skills.
Derek Sivers
Um, the basic ability to book a gig to find some gigs. You should think of it like driving a car. Like, if you think of how many hours you spent learning to drive a car, it was, you know, substantial, right? Wasn't it like 20 or 30 hours it took to learn how to drive and to get your permit and practice, and then you're doing it. So I think putting in 20 hours into learning how to book gigs, uh, is very smart, or putting 20 hours into reading some books about guerrilla marketing, for example. Those books have fallen into obscurity a bit, but there's a brilliant series of books called guerrilla is spelled g u e r r I l l a guerrilla marketing by Jay Conrad Levinson, who I think is passed away now. But, um, in like the early 90s, he had this brilliant series of books called Guerrilla Marketing that were so creative and would really apply to a lot of musicians today, especially because they're not in the current zeitgeist. Like not a lot of people are reading these books. You could go back to these books by Jay Conrad Levinson and pick up some amazing creative ideas on how to get your music into places that that aren't oversaturated, you know, in a new, creative ways. And that would be being a competent novice at marketing, just reading a few books and giving it a try.
Chris Webb
I love that because I think so much of it is about getting rid of the fear to even try, right? Yeah, it's like if you, if you, if you hearing somebody like you say that gives somebody like me like, well yeah. Then I should own a booking agency. Why haven't I? I mean, I've been booking myself for 20 years, you know, like. Yes. So yeah.
Derek Sivers
Yeah. It's not a huge difference between the professionals and the amateurs. It's I think being a semi-expert is enough.
Dave Tamkin
And you're already failing by not doing so. Might as well fail by doing. I mean, I think that's about a story at the end, isn't it? You know.
Derek Sivers
Yeah. Or or to to rephrase what you just said. Isn't it like if you're already at zero. Well, then just doing anything gets you from 0 to 1. Yeah. So, uh, any effort will be better than nothing.
Dave Tamkin
Um. Chapter 21, you know, as far as, like, effort is concerned. And this goes into small gifts go a long way. And I kind of learned this lesson in the way that you describe an album for a musician. You say either an album is the beginning of something or the end of something for certain musicians, and I wish I would have learned this lesson a long time ago in my career. I'm from Chicago as well, and when I moved out here in, uh, 2008, and then shortly after that, your book came out in 2012. Anything you want. Well, I mean, it was inspiring. And a lot of the things that you do in that book, you talk about even giving then when you were starting your business and even this book, now you talk about giving. I remember a musician writing a letter to a venue owner who? I hooked him up. He was coming out here from Chicago, and he just wrote him a thank you letter. Thank you for having me at your venue. Thank you for making me feel like I was at home all the way, you know, a thousand miles away from my home. And that venue owner sent me a picture right away and said, I wish more musicians did this. And I think that's a theme throughout your book. Um, you comment on, like the gifts you receive in this book as well, and how you remember those. Do you see that kind of generosity from other musicians from those early days when you started at the record label? When you talk about that to now, I mean, is that something that often happens?
Derek Sivers
I think it's rare. I think any kind of follow up is rare. I think most people are operating in a constant sense of overwhelm and desperation. You know, it's like all they can do to just get to the next gig, and it's all they can do to just, you know, drive to the next gig, load in, do the gig, get home and do the next thing. They they know that they should probably write thank you notes, but it's just like you can't do everything. And so, um, you know, in many ways, in all different aspects of the industry, not just a not just between musicians and gigs and venues, but just in general, most people don't stop to put aside time to say thank you to people that helped them in the past, or to just reach out to people they care about without any self-interest, you know, to like, have a conversation with Kenny, who runs the venue, about what's on Kenny's mind today, not just promoting yourself, but to just like, have a real human interaction takes, uh, it takes time, and it takes a state of mind that has put aside that sense of desperation and urgency a bit. You know, it's it's it's important but not urgent. That's like a thing. You might have seen that grid that was popularized by this self-help book long ago called, um, seven Habits of Highly Effective People, talks about distinguishing between what's urgent and what's important, that very often those two are not the same things. Um, we do things that are urgent, that aren't important, when in fact we should be doing things that are important but not urgent. So what you're talking about, like thank you notes and having a real human conversation with people in the industry, even though they could help you, is important but not urgent.
Dave Tamkin
And that holds a lot of weight. That held a lot of weight for you, for you to say 20 years later, you know, you still are in touch with some of these people that went out of their way just to say thank you or hello or appreciate the time we had together, which it just really hit home for me.
Derek Sivers
I was just in Japan a week ago today and I was I was in Tokyo and I was passing this temple called the Amazing Temple. And I'm only saying this because in the book, your music or people, I talk about how Jane and Kelly Williams, in God the Year 1992 gave me a red sweatshirt as a present, like a thank you present for recording her demo or something like that. And she had a song that was like, come on inside, I'll take you to the foot of the amazing temple. And so here I am in like, what year are we? 2022? 30 years later, I'm in Japan and I'm singing Jane Kelly Williams song in my head, which I haven't actually heard the song since 1992, but I still remember it because she made an impression on me by giving me this little gift.
Chris Webb
It's like the power of gratitude, and I often think that people are afraid to show that gratitude. Like, we have this fear of expressing gratitude in professional atmospheres. It's like we're supposed to stay professional and never, like, show our sensitivity of of appreciation.
Derek Sivers
And if anybody listening to this has that belief, get rid of that because it is the most professional thing you can do. In fact, I think like this was a big surprise for me, like working inside the music industry is how much of it was like just people being friends, you know, like the guy that ended up becoming my lawyer. Later, I met him as a lawyer. I met him with somebody saying, hey, there's this lawyer that you should work with. I want you guys to meet. I think you'd like each other. Um, he used to be the vice president of or the CEO of A&M records, and then he was the CEO of Napster. And so he was like a big mover and shaker in the music industry. But when we met, we just hit it off as friends. We were talking about cycling and we were talking about his kids, and he's really into ping pong. And we just became dear friends. And, uh, our relationship was like 80% friends, 20% Contracts. You know, like, mostly we talk as friends and we'd shoot the shit and then he'd say, yeah, anyway, all right, let's do this. Uh, let's get back to the contract that we were working on with Apple. Let's get back to that. So what do you want to do about this?
Chris Webb
So that 8020 rule worked though didn't it. Like it was.
Derek Sivers
It was I guess that's why I picked those numbers 8020. But I guess what I'm saying is it's actually the most professional thing of all to develop real, reciprocal, mutual human relationships between the people that you'll be doing business with. That's how it's really done in the industry. It's people do people do business with people they like.
Chris Webb
Uh, one thing you've said that stood out to me, that was that business is just as creative as your art. Uh, and, and we put a lot of emotion into our art, but then sometimes we don't put this emotion into our relationships with our business partners. Right. And so maybe that's one parallel there, but also, um, I think it's hard. So I teach at the University of Colorado, Denver, and it's hard to show artists how fun business can be. Um, and so I'm curious, with your experience going from being a performing artist to running a company like CDBaby and building that, where was it that you found yourself enjoying the business part? Because there must have been a transition there going from musician to business owner.
Derek Sivers
Actually, I think it was those books that I mentioned earlier, Guerrilla Marketing by Jay Conrad Levinson. Go find those books. They might not even be on Kindle. I don't know, they might only be in paper now, but, um, it's worth it. Find them because they just have such fun, interesting tips and examples from daily life never mentioning the music business, but they're all like talking about a guy with a car wash who did a deal with a local car dealer to kind of like, hey, anytime you buy a car, come over here and I'll wash it for you. Or I don't know. I'm giving a bad example. I haven't read the books in decades. It would be fun to read them again. But I remember that as a musician that had no interest in business other than I want to get famous. Reading those books excited the hell out of me because it gives you little creative exercises you can do, right? So okay, let me make a music comparison. If somebody says, write me a song about anything, go. Just write me a song. You're a little stumped. You go, well, you know, that's that's too vague. That's too broad. But if somebody says, okay, write me a song that's exactly this in this key, using only these four notes. And it has to be about this subject. Start with the word tomorrow. And the last word has to be the word graveyard. And, you know, get loud and quiet in between. Now you've been giving a set of restrictions and now it's like a fun exercise, like, ooh, how could I start a song that starts with the word tomorrow and ends with the word graveyard? It's only in these keys.
Derek Sivers
Now you've got some limitations. So now it's a fun exercise. Like when I was at Berklee School of Music taking classes in songwriting, I loved being given these exercises like they'd say, make a melody, make an eight bar melody, but don't make it a four bar phrase and four bar phrase or two and two make it an odd number, like make it like three, three and 2 or 7 and one. And I'd go, ooh, okay, I can do this. I can make an eight bar melody. That's actually a seven bar phrase with a one bar phrase. Now that's inspiring. So it's the same thing when you read books or even, you know, listen to podcasts or watch YouTube videos that give you ideas about marketing, you can try these things as like a fun little creative experiment, like, let's see what happens if I email everybody in my mailing list and say, what song would you guys like me to write? Or I post something on Twitter saying, um, hey, everybody, come over to my house for a private concert tomorrow night or something like that. Like whatever it may be, trying things that you hear, we don't think of it as doing business because it doesn't sound serious. It's just fun. But I think it just it makes the whole process more interesting and more fun.
Chris Webb
On a side note of that, you know, I think of how we do have to do everything these days, at least to a certain point, maybe where you become, uh, maybe a major label might be interested in you, but for the most part, artists have to do a little of everything to grow their business, right? You know, all the different aspects of promotion and building their business. And we interviewed the this wonderful, uh, entrepreneur instructor. Her name was Fabiana Kahlua, and she I had never heard this before. And I'm curious if you had heard this, but apparently the the word entrepreneur originates from the word entertainer.
Derek Sivers
Oh, I didn't know that.
Chris Webb
I had never heard it and it but it makes a lot of sense. And you.
Derek Sivers
Know what? Sorry. You just gave me an idea that I'd never thought about until this second. That everything I just said about, like, treating business like a fun experiment with constant little creative challenges. Then you you mentioned thing about, like, we have to do everything ourselves, which made me think, okay, it's useful to have a team. It's useful to have people helping you, even if it's just one person. But ideally, you know, one, 2 or 3 people helping you. You could actually help people help you by giving them these little creative challenges. You know, like take that fan of yours that's at the front of every show and say, hey, would you like to do some work for me? And they go, they'd probably say, well, what do you mean? And if you were to just say, how would you like to be my manager? They'd go, uh, like, that's too much, right? But if you say, how would you like to call these venues and say this. Or how would you like to contact our other fans and say that? Or let's try this experiment together. How would you like to be in charge of running this fun experiment? Then I think most people would say yes to that, and that would be an amazing way of engaging people and helping you by breaking it down into fun experiments for them.
Chris Webb
And as I've heard you say before too, that it's like they want to do that, right? They they're looking for an opportunity to show their appreciation back. Right. For all that you give them as their favorite, as their favorite artist. We talk a lot about knowing your value and being willing to hold on to it. Uh, and for us, I think both Dave and I, we do a lot of performance. That's kind of a lot of where we make our income. But there's lots of other ways of teaching and and selling music to film and TV and, you know, all the different avenues pulled from chapter 76 in your book about pricing and putting yourself pricing and putting yourself into it. Right. And and knowing your value and then being willing to hold on to that. Like what are some, some ways that that you encourage people to find that value in themselves and then find ways to stick to it. Mhm.
Derek Sivers
The biggest thing is to think of everything from the other person's point of view, which is the essence of the starving artist problem. Right. So if I feel like it's hot in here in this room right now, I don't think it's hot in here only for me, I think of it as a fact. It is hot in here. And if somebody else is cold, I'm confused. How can you be cold? It's hot in here, right? I don't think it's only hot for me. It feels like a fact. So when we feel like our music is valuable, it feels like a fact. Like my music is valuable. This is good music. But it might just be that this is only valuable to you. Like the process you went through to write this song was valuable to you, and the end product of this song might not be valuable to other people. Um, it might be, but it might not be. You have to start thinking outside yourself and think of everything you've created from the point of view of like a disinterested party who's just overwhelmed with stimulation. Why would your music be interesting to them? Not because of the intrinsic reasons you created it, but for the extrinsic reasons that they'll be encountering it, uh, when busy doing other things. Right. So same thing with a venue. Same thing. When you start thinking this way, then you think about it from the venue owner's point of view. Why is this venue owner doing this? They could be doing many other things and they've chosen to run a music venue. What do they really want out of this?
Chris Webb
You brought up two more things. Let's let's spawn this a little because you also said you because you also said in the book that you need you need to make sure that you're solving problems, right? Um, how can how can what you're doing solve problems, have your music solve problems? And I think that maybe that's.
Derek Sivers
One way of doing it.
Chris Webb
Yeah. Right. Okay.
Derek Sivers
It's not the only way that, uh, you know, Bob Dylan wasn't writing songs to solve a problem for me, but I enjoy them anyway. The German band Rammstein, is it Rammstein or Rammstein that there was a time lapse showing how much work is involved in setting up their stage show with all the pyrotechnics and stuff, and it was like six days of work to set up a Rammstein show, and they had it in time lapse with all the, you know, the, the scaffolding going up and the pyrotechnics and all this. And then only in the final 90 minutes does the band come out on stage and do their thing. And then it's days of tear down. Right? And it made me think about like God in a way that is so Considerate. What they've chosen to do is to do the extra work to put on an entire sensory visual show for people knowing that when people when at least their fans go out to see a show, they want the full high stimulation, like more stimulation than a video game can offer, right? Like something to pry them away from their screens at home and get them to drive an hour off to a venue and do this because they get in front of their face and like the boom of the bass in their chest or the of the fireworks. And I think, damn, that's, that's some next level thinking. Yeah. That goes beyond this song that you initially plucked out on six strings and, uh, and turns it into this giant, considerate show. I really admire that. It's not for everybody, but to me, that's an example of their kind of solving a problem. Like, how can we create a show that is so big and exciting that it will be more exciting than anything that this person could possibly have coming in through their screen at home.
Chris Webb
Yeah.
Dave Tamkin
It also speaks to your chapter about exploring everyone's senses so appealing to the senses as far as you know, smell or like you just said, that, you know, the bass in their chest. You went like this. Something unique about Chris. And I don't know, Chris, if you want to share this, but he had to pick a language to graduate college with a music major, and he picked sign language and they pushed back on him. But he had to go out and do, you know, interview all these people about how they someone who can't hear, um, takes in music and feels that. And Chris, if you want to talk more to that. But I thought about you when I read that chapter.
Chris Webb
Oh. That's nice. Cool. I mean, the main thing that that relates to right there is just that they they want to feel it too, right? Like, they want to feel the emotional impact of what art does. And and they found in the deaf culture they have these parties that are very visual like like that would probably be a really great place for a deaf person to go see a concert, because all those other elements kind of offset their their inability to hear it. Right. They feel it right with the bass, you say. And so, um, yeah, I think that show would deliver really well for them too.
Derek Sivers
So to wrap up what I said, solving a problem, you have to kind of loosen your definition of problem to think of what you're doing that way. So there are some examples in the book about like, like when I was running CD baby yoga music always sold really well. Christmas music always sold really well. Meditation CDs sold well because those were things that people were using, like, okay, I'm having a Christmas party. I need to get some Christmas music to put on in the background. Um, I do yoga every day. I want to put on some yoga music. Um, so those were The music for a specific purpose. But yeah, if you think of like a Rammstein concert or even just somebody wanting you to live the life that they wish they could, if they could quit their dumb job and be free like they wish they were. And you're representing that freedom and the transparency of emotion and expression like that might be the the problem that you're solving is being the fullest version of yourself, the way that they wish they could be.
Chris Webb
That is so powerful. And I experienced that the most right after the lockdowns ended and Covid was sort of subsiding. And I remember playing a show and this man was like in tears, like I was just playing a cover of a Van Morrison song. Uh, but, you know, he hadn't heard it in years, and I was giving him something that was releasing something, you know, emotionally from him. And I was like, wow. You know, you sometimes forget that you're even doing that. You forget that impact is always present, right? As as an artist.
Derek Sivers
Sorry. What Van Morrison song was it?
Chris Webb
Uh, into the mystic.
Derek Sivers
Oh. What do you do for the saxophone part?
Chris Webb
Uh, I play it on the guitar. I loop the.
Dave Tamkin
He has a kazoo.
Chris Webb
Yeah, right.
Derek Sivers
Da da da da.
Chris Webb
Nothing makes a man cry like a kazoo. I'll tell you.
Dave Tamkin
Just be honest with him, Chris.
Derek Sivers
Oh, I love that song.
Chris Webb
Yeah, right. Well, that's the thing is, it does, like, old songs, have a nostalgia power to.
Derek Sivers
Did you see the movie that featured that song? There was like some, like, almost like a lifetime movie, like a mother daughter thing. And then like, the mother plays the daughter, that song. Do you know the movie I'm talking about? I don't know, I haven't seen it in decades. It's like I don't even remember the name. I don't remember the actresses or anything, but that's the first time I heard that song. It's like. It's like a thing, like a mother daughter. And she's like, here, I want to play you something really special. And she puts on that song. I was like, whoa, what is this? And later I found out it was Into the Mystic by Van Morrison. But that's what turned me on to Van Morrison.
Derek Sivers
Mother daughter scene in some random movie I saw when I was a teenager.
Chris Webb
Was that that.
Chris Webb
Yeah, well. And the movie, like, makes it more powerful, you know? Like. Yes. Because now it's.
Derek Sivers
Yeah, it's given emotional weight. Totally. Those manipulative directors.
Chris Webb
I teach a class on film and TV and, like, how how to get your music onto film and TV, and that's always what I'm telling them. Is that your music all of a sudden takes new legs when you can put it in the context of characters that people already care about, you know? Wow. It's a really powerful way to, like, get people to care about your music. And that's worked for a lot of bands, right? They've they've found their success by getting onto a show. First you say something that I believe in to the core of our mission here at Musicians Tip Jar. In saying that, you need to know your next step. We preach with this, with this concept of knowing what you're doing next, what you're trying to do next. We preach that within the finance and budgeting and investing and all of the aspects that make your finances stable. Can I ask some of the ways that you yourself Self. Try to keep this idea of knowing your next step in part of your progress in life.
Derek Sivers
See, for me, I interpret that I don't know if this is the way you meant it, but here's the way I use that concept is for daily motivation. Um, I find that if I don't know my next step and I mean really like the next action that I will be taking in five minutes if I don't know what it is, I procrastinate and I feel lost and I will allow any distraction to pull me aside. But if I know what I need to do next, like specifically, uh, contact this person, say this or read this, learn this by this, or even, you know, fix the bridge to my song. Or in my case, like, you know, fix this bit of programming that allows people to put more than one book into their cart or whatever. If I know the next concrete step I need to take, I'll do it. And like stepping stones, I can keep doing that, right? Like, if I know all the next steps to take, I can keep going full of motivation. As soon as I don't know the next step, I just, I feel lost. I'm like, you know, maybe I'll go get something to eat.
Derek Sivers
Maybe I'll do this. What am I doing? I'll call a friend. I get distracted, and when I catch myself doing that, I think, ah, damn it, I've. It's because I don't know the next step. And so I stop and I take this vague cloud of what I need to do and chop it up. Yeah. And until I've got specific actionables. And once I have actionables not to be confused with Lunchables, then I can. Then suddenly I'm motivated. Then I jump into action. Right? So I, I highly recommend that to anybody. But that's just like a generic, um, universal motivational. That's like the book Getting Things Done by David Allen is about that kind of stuff, like breaking things down into their specific actionable can do it in five minute kind of steps. Yeah, even God, I even heard the the founder of Ikea who's like a, you know, 140 year old Swedish man, uh, saying that, uh, that that's how he runs his days, that he breaks his days into ten minute segments. Uh, and that's how he gets so much done, is always knowing, like.
Chris Webb
So wait, you're you're saying that that being that successful doesn't have some magic, like, mental gift that that the rest of us don't have? I don't understand, like, I always feel like we have this impression, like even the success that you have reached, like, it feels like you must know something the rest of us don't know. Like. And then he must know something that the rest of us have never been. Right. You know some secret, right? Um. But that's. I only say that because it's very inspiring that you, that you, that you allow us to feel the fact that really, it's just our own mind that's stopping us from moving towards what we want. Right?
Derek Sivers
Yeah. You know, and I mean, it's funny, you know, I've, I've been me for quite a while now, and, um, sometimes I forget that I'm officially successful. But if I think back about, like, what did it, it was really just, like, a few bold moves, you know, like, we'll start with taking the pig show in a gig, saying yes to that. When my friend said no led to ten years in the circus, that was like from the age of 18 to 28. I performed in that circus and did over a thousand shows and an average of, let's say, an average of $200 each. So I probably made $200,000. But more than that got amazing experience just from, I mean, from performing over a thousand shows to very apathetic audiences sometimes, you know, it was an amazing performing experience, like to learn how to be a real entertainer, you know, not just a shoegazing guitarist that I started as, um, I learned how to work a crowd, you know? And it was funny. Later, when I started performing in the college circuit, that it was the same tricks that I would use to get four year olds to stand up and dance. The same trick worked on 22 year olds.
Derek Sivers
Yeah. Yeah. Um, that was funny to learn. So yeah, that was an amazing experience. But then even like, starting CD baby was, it was just kind of a thing that I said yes to actually let me take something back. I started this paragraph saying a few bold moves, but no, it was actually just a few things that I said yes to that other people didn't. That led to everything else, right? And then like CD baby just kind of snowballed. It just built on itself and it was the right timing. Saying yes to that one pig show led to ten years of shows. And then, um, in the intro you said Ted speaker. You know, that was also just a thing. Like just one day I was like, I want to speak at Ted. Like, not Ted, like the big Ted. I want to do that. How do I do that? And it just took like half an hour of searching and how to do it. And there was a submission form and I submitted a form and they said yes and invited me to speak at TEDx. And, um, it was just like a thing that I did. And because I did that, that led to other things.
Derek Sivers
Um, and that's about it. Like, I think there's only been like 3 or 4 things I did in my life that led to everything else. And I wouldn't be surprised if, like the founder of Ikea was like, same thing. Like, probably just had an idea, said, well, let's try this little thing and started this thing. And there were probably 1 or 2 other decisions along the way, like maybe it used to be one shop and he made this decision to franchise. Um, it's interesting if you read the autobiography of Sam Walton, I think it's called Made in America. Who started Walmart? The guy is just totally humble, like in Bentonville, Arkansas, just making like a little five and dime shop. And he just makes one shop, but he just finds it really interesting. So he makes a second shop and then says, I think we need to spread out a bit. I'm going to make a third shop. And then, boy, I've got three shops now, this is fun. I'm going to do more. And then that leads to Walmart. But it's totally the things that separate super successful people from the rest of us are often just a few moves like that.
Dave Tamkin
You also mentioned in this book that the dreams that you have planned, you sometimes don't want to concentrate on all the details, but work with what you're giving along the way. It seems like you did that with the The Pig gig, that you weren't expecting this future in front of you, but you were giving a set of circumstances and you were able to make them work. But if you did concentrate on what you thought your next ten years were going to be, you might have missed that altogether.
Derek Sivers
Ooh, damn, that's a great point.
Dave Tamkin
This is your point. Yeah. I'm just stealing your words, did I?
Derek Sivers
No, I like the way you put it better. It's like if you're too focused on the mountains and the distance, you might not notice the flowers at your feet. Mhm. Ooh.
Dave Tamkin
See, I like that better. You took.
Derek Sivers
It. I like it here. I should have said that like a deep southern drawl to make it sound like a an old saying.
Chris Webb
Two last questions for you. And these. These are questions that we often ask. But the first one actually really is catered to what one of the things that I really have taken away from the way you approach sharing your knowledge and sharing yourself. Um, you have that what am I doing now page. And that's always connected to your emails. It's always connected to you, your website. So I just think that idea is so simple and genius and I'm amazed that nobody else has it. I don't don't have it on my website. And it's just like sometimes you just want to know what somebody is doing right now. So I have two questions about that. One is where did that come from? And second, how often do you update that.
Derek Sivers
It actually came from Benny Lewis or rather my interest in Benny Lewis. There's this guy called the Irish Polyglot Benny Lewis. He's this Irish guy that, in his mid-twenties, only spoke one language and tried learning Spanish, but failed miserably. So he tried again to do it in a different way, and he did it so well that then he learned French, and then he learned German, and then he learned Polish, and then he, you know, so now he speaks like 12 languages fluently. And I met Benny at a conference after being a fan of his blog and book. And I like him. I just, I like Benny and so I would very often go to Benny's site, like wondering how he's doing because he's one of those guys. Like, he's just I would like text him and he wouldn't reply or whatever and call him and he wouldn't answer. We weren't that close friends, but I care about him and I always wanted to know what he was doing. So I said, I just felt like, damn, I wish there was just like a page that Benny would keep updated to say, like, this is what I'm doing because somebody's Facebook or Twitter feed doesn't necessarily show that. They'll often show like, you know, hey, I'm in Boston today, but, you know, here's what I'm eating or hey, I saw this funny thing.
Derek Sivers
Or here's something that made me mad today, but that doesn't really tell me, like, how are you doing? So after a while, I thought, well, huh. If I'm always wondering that about Benny, maybe somebody out there is wondering that about me. Like, how are you doing? What are you doing? So I don't really social media much, so, uh. Yeah, I just made a page on my website. Now, that's all right. If you really want to know what I'm up to, go to Sive.rs now, and it will always tell you what's on my mind, what I'm doing, what I'm working on. And I did this for a month or two, and then somebody else saw it and said, oh, that's a really cool idea. I want to do that too. And then I posted saying, hey, this guy Greg also has a now page. And then suddenly, like ten more people that day added a now page to their website. Now it's a thing like a few thousand people have a page on their website and it's almost always it's slashed now, so you can just type their domain slash now. And so then I, I created now, now Now.com, which is a collection of all the people with now pages, and that's kind of like a fun hobby that I run in like a few minutes a week.
Derek Sivers
I update and add new people to now. No now.com how often do I update it? Basically just whenever I'm updating my site. Anyway, it just takes like an extra minute or two to like go to my now page and just type the current what's up? You know, like I just got back from Japan. Um, I'm excited about my new book. Um, either I'm booking interviews or I'm not booking interviews or, um, yeah, I just try to like. It's funny, if you go to now, now, Now.com, you can see a variety of ways that people do it, either giving really detailed like here's what's on my almost like ongoing diary entries or sometimes just a quick overview. But yeah, to me it's, um, I also like de-emphasizing social media, like I don't if you want to know what's up with me, I don't want it to be like the way you find out what's up with me is to go to a business called Twitter, or to go to a business called Facebook or a business called Instagram to find out what Derek's doing. Yeah. Um. I don't trust platforms like that. Um, so I'd rather just keep everything on my site.
Chris Webb
You've got two more people who are about to add the slash now, so. Cool. It's really impactful. And I just love the idea of of. I just am going to start asking all of my favorite artists to add it to, because I really realize how much I want to know what they're thinking about, you know?
Derek Sivers
Yeah. Yeah. Same here. I mean, there are some other friends to that. Yeah. My friend Amber Rubarth, who's one of my favorite musicians. And I always wonder, like, are you recording? Are you touring? What's going on?
Chris Webb
Like, yeah, they're getting rid of the idea that you have to measure it with likes or with hearts.
Derek Sivers
Yeah.
Chris Webb
You know. Yeah. Like you don't care. You just want to be able to say it, right?
Derek Sivers
Yeah. To connect with people who care about you.
Chris Webb
Okay. Final question. And we ask everybody this, and, uh, and I know that you are an avid reader. Um, so this should be an easy one for you. Um, but we have a book page, a book club on our, on our website of books that we recommend and that all of our guests recommend. So is there maybe 1 or 2 books that maybe could focus on finance that you have read that have been impactful for you? They don't have to be about finance, but they'd be helpful if they are.
Derek Sivers
Let's do the obvious one first, since this will be the third time I've mentioned it in this show. A Guerrilla marketing by Jay Conrad Levinson. I think at the time there was like a series of maybe eight of these books called like guerrilla marketing, this guerrilla marketing, that guerrilla marketing mastery, guerrilla marketing, you know, online. So try to find any of the books from Guerrilla Marketing by Jay Conrad Levinson. And again, it's the guerrilla spelled like guerrilla tactics g e r r I l l e. The other book, um, besides mine, of course. Yeah.
Chris Webb
I mean, well, we already have yours on there too, just to. Okay.
Derek Sivers
And I don't mean that in a self-interested way. It's like, well, damn, a lot of what I have to say to everybody is in that book. You probably know that Ari Herstand, A book on the music business. You've got that one right, Ari. Hurston's book, I think, is wonderful, up to date, current music industry stuff. I think that's really good. But let's let's do one more.
Dave Tamkin
Um, how to make it in the new music business.
Derek Sivers
Thank you. That's the one. Yes. It's so good. I'm a fan of that book. Um, let's do one more, though. Let's do, um, Seth Godin small. No, let's do this newer one. Seth Godin, this is marketing. Beautiful. Is that already on your list? It is not.
Chris Webb
We have one other Seth Godin. Okay, good. But not that one.
Derek Sivers
Good. Okay. So Seth Godin's newest business book is called This Is Marketing. And he has such a wonderful, like, humanist, holistic approach to what marketing is. And you'll probably find a lot of similarities with my approach in his because he's a hero of mine. Um, yeah. He's also kind of constantly reminding you that marketing, in its essence, is about being considerate. It's about being generous. It's about being thoughtful. It's about connecting with real people. It's a great reminder. Like he even ran a record label for a little while. That's, uh. He was one of my clients for a bit at CD, baby. Um. Wow. And he loves he's a big music fan, and so he often uses music as the examples in his book or musicians as an example. He's often keeping musicians in mind when talking about marketing. So yeah, this is marketing by Seth Godin.
Chris Webb
Excellent. Does he does he play an instrument? Does he? I don't think so. No. Okay.
Derek Sivers
I think he's just a big fan of music. Yeah.
Chris Webb
Yeah. I could see having you two at the dinner table would be an excellent dinner. Thank you very, very much for giving us this time and all of your ideas and for releasing these books. I mean, I think a lot of people don't get a chance to say thank you. So from all of us that are getting so much out of your content. Thank you.
Derek Sivers
Thanks, guys.
Dave Tamkin
It's so nice to hear your voice coming from you and being as genuine and as kind as I hoped you would be when I've listened to your books. So thank you very much, because it makes it even more inspiring, because it's just like a musician. If you get to know them, you just God, you hope you like them because it makes their music that much more valuable.
Derek Sivers
So yeah.
Dave Tamkin
Thank you for that.
Derek Sivers
It's such a shame when you don't, you know, like, I don't know if there's a funny. When I worked at Warner Brothers in New York City, um, I had the opportunity to meet James Brown. Like, everybody knew what a huge James Brown fan I was. I mean, I named my band Hit Me after James Brown, you know, or 2 or 3 hit me. So my band was called Hit Me as an homage to James Brown. It was a funk band. I was a massive fan. And one day they're just like, hey, Derek, guess who's coming to the office today? They said, James Brown. I was like.
Chris Webb
Oh my God. Mm.
Derek Sivers
I was like, I'm going to go home. I was like, I'm calling a sick day. I don't want to meet him. I was like, because there was this fear, like, this guy means so much to me. But actually, specifically, I loved his music from 1968 to 1972. So much like here we are like 30 years later, I don't think I want to meet the guy. Like, I don't want that my my memory of his music to be tainted by the man himself. Maybe I would have liked him, but just the chance that I wouldn't would, would have tainted that stuff. But, um. Yeah. So I know what you mean, but thank you. And, uh. And, hey, anybody listening to this, if you're still listening, you made it to the end. Go to my website, sive.rs, and email me, because I actually really like hearing from other musicians around the world. So introduce yourself and make sure you give me a link to your damn music. It freaks me out when people email and they're just like, I'm a musician. Da da da da da da da. And that's the end. I'm like, well, duh, where can I hear your music? So give me the URL, tell me where I can hear your music. Because I love listening to somebody's music as I'm reading their email and getting to know them.
Chris Webb
So again, thank you very much. I hope you have a great day there in New Zealand.