LifeDoneDifferent.ly
host: Neil Witten
writing books, personal motivation, life philosophy, starting a movement
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Transcript:
Niel Witten
Derek, it is an absolute pleasure. Actually I’m going to start by just saying I really appreciate the fact that we’ve been emailing on and off for quite a few years, actually, really sporadically. But you’ve always been so good at coming back and and entertaining me. But it’s amazing that you do that. I read something on your blog and I made a note of it, because I thought it’d be an interesting one to just start with. I think this was 2018. You answered 92,000 emails from 33,000 people in the year of 2018. I was probably one of those people.
Niel Witten
How do you do that?
Derek Sivers
Yeah.
Derek Sivers
How? Okay. Well, first, actually, I want to start to say that I was actually looking forward to meeting you. We were talking about you guys coming up from Brighton to Oxford. I’m sure we would have by now. If COVID hadn’t hit and sent me back to New Zealand. I loved living in Oxford. I was planning to stay there for at least 12 years till my kid was 18.
Ray Richards
I was going to combine it with seeing my son who was at university. So that was a while ago. Not not the not of the Oxford University, but the other one. The one that wins the boat race.
Derek Sivers
But yeah, so then COVID hit and sent me back to New Zealand, so sorry we didn’t get the chance to meet. Back to your question, I find that emails--you can make shortcuts for yourself. There are programs that can help you do what they call macros. So if you find yourself typing certain sentences or entire phrases, you can assign them to a hotkey. So I found that I don’t use big generic form letters ever, but certain sentences and paragraphs I have assigned to hotkeys. So for me going through my email is just going to be like a scan. So it takes me about five or 10 seconds each and I enjoy it because honestly, most of them are really nice. Almost no complaints. Like one a week, I get like one nasty email a week. I don’t mind that. And I meet the most interesting people, people introduce themselves to me saying that they saw my video or read my book and I’m a guitar builder in Slovenia or I build fishing boats in Darwin, Australia. And I think how cool that I’m talking with the guy that builds fishing boats in Darwin, Australia, that’s badass. And it’s just so rewarding for me. I really love when people introduce themselves to me from around the world.
Niel Witten
Well, have any interesting friendships or interesting adventures come about from you answering those emails?
Derek Sivers
Infinite romances, friendships. Two or three of the big loves of my life came from a cold email. Somebody saying that she heard my stuff and was moved and this is me [crosstalk].
Ray Richards
You should not be saying this. You should not be saying this.
Derek Sivers
So it actually goes the other way too. So I have this page on my website where I show all the notes from the books that I’ve read. And so my favorite books, I always contact the author. And I’ll say, “Hi, my name is Derek. I read your book.” I absolutely loved it. I loved this about it. I loved that about it. Thank you for writing it. This is so good. A few times that’s started a friendship with the author. Whether it’s a book or sometimes even just an article.
Derek Sivers
So I met Mark Manson years ago because I just loved his writing. This is before he had his book called “The Subtle Art of Not Giving a Fuck”. So I just loved his articles and just contacted him saying, I just love the way you write. You’re one of the best writers I’ve ever read. And he said, “Oh my God, I love the way you write.” So we met up in Thailand and hung out. On the back of his book. Well, actually, before he even got the book deal, he and I were talking about publishers and I introduced him to my publisher at Penguin, and he ended up not going with Penguin. But that helped that he had multiple publishers interested. So on the back cover of that subtle art book was a big blurb from me because we were friends before that book. Same with Tim Ferriss. After reading “The Four Hour Workweek”, I just contacted him. Just like, “Dude, this is great. This made a big difference.” And he said, “Hey, you’re in San Francisco, let’s hang out.”
Niel Witten
But that’s interesting, isn’t it? Because it’s just about not being afraid. It’s about not thinking that the pedestals .
Ray Richards
That’s amazing.
Ray Richards
That’s right. Exactly. Yeah.
Derek Sivers
You’ve got to break down the pedestal and say, This is just another writer who put their ass on the line. Sharing their soul with the world. And everybody loves to hear the acknowledgement that this reached me. So every time I read a great book, I always contact the author, to say--.
Niel Witten
And they will know whether it’s genuine or not.
Derek Sivers
Of course.
Niel Witten
They know straight away reading the email that you’ve written and they will know whether you’re blowing smoke up their or not.
Derek Sivers
Why would anybody? The only reason somebody would blow smoke as if it’s like, “Hey I really loved your book, and I’d love to have you as part of our program that you can join for $1,000.”
Niel Witten
That’s what I mean.
Derek Sivers
But other than that, you could tell that somebody’s quite sincere if they take the time to write an email.
Ray Richards
Really quickly, yeah.
Niel Witten
We had a guest years ago. You probably know him, Bruce Paisley. He was the CEO of Twitter UK for quite some time. And I think YouTube before that. Really interesting guy and he talked about this idea of using the middle lane. And what he meant by that is that he had found that there were ways of reaching certain people, achieving certain things, doing things in the world by taking a route that most people wouldn’t take. So the example he gave was that in an early job that he really didn’t have the qualifications for and didn’t stand out for. He drew a CV. So the CV was pictures with some explanation.
Ray Richards
Cartoons, isn’t it?
Niel Witten
Yeah, and it got him noticed. And that was enough for a conversation and it led from one thing to the next thing to the next thing. It feels like there’s a sense of that in--it probably doesn’t feel like that for you today, but in what you’re describing, it makes me wonder, how long have you been doing this? And is it something you learn? Did you pick it up somewhere? Can you can you take it back to to some moment maybe. .
Derek Sivers
I think the dehierarching. I’m really glad that you brought that up. I think it all comes down to that. That years ago, maybe because I was running CD Baby and I had the contact information of the musicians who were sending me CD’s. Whenever I’d hear an album that I loved, I’d just find a way to contact the musician and say, “I love this album. I love what you did with the chord changes in the middle of this. I love how you kept going back from major to minor to major and minor again. That’s so cool. I love what you did in the production of this song.” And I’d give really specifics, tell them what I loved about it.
Ray Richards
So and that’s about transparency, right? It’s just about that’s what you’re feeling. That’s what you’re thinking. Why not share it with them?
Derek Sivers
Yeah. Which probably zooming out. It’s a mix of two things. We’ve all heard that we’re supposed to have a gratitude journal or feel gratitude nightly or acknowledge your gratitude. But I think I also have this belief that if you’re thinking something nice about somebody, you should tell them. So, every now and then, I may just think something nice about an old friend that I haven’t talked to in years and laugh at something he said years ago or something like that. And I’ll just ring up an old friend, just call out of the blue. Phone rings, it says Derek Sivers, phone number that hasn’t rung in five years. And just tell them that I’m thinking something nice about them. And it even goes with strangers. If I see a stranger on the street that’s got a great hat or amazing freckles. I’ve always had freckle envy.
Ray Richards
I had them as a kid, and I didn’t want to have freckles, but, you know.
Derek Sivers
I know that’s the thing, right? It’s like people with freckles go, “Oh, God, I wish I didn’t have them.” And I’ve never had freckles. I’m Swedish. I wish I had freckles. So I just thought I should always tell them. If you’re thinking something nice about somebody, you should tell them. So here’s the key lesson. Most people don’t hear enough nice things.
Niel Witten
Yeah, it’s a beautiful trait. I say that in a deliberate way because it is, and most people don’t do it. Do you think? Have you learned to do it? Can you track it back to CD Baby and go, Yeah maybe there was a moment where--or does it start earlier than that? Was it embedded as a child? Where does that sort of trait come from?
Derek Sivers
Probably when I was a teenager. I read the old book by Dale Carnegie called “How to Win Friends and Influence People”. Which is such a terrible title. Audience, if you haven’t read the book yet, just imagine it’s called How to be Considerate. I think How to Be Considerate would have been a much better title for it. But it’s a masterpiece. It’s a classic. It’s old, it’s written in the 1930s. So it’s usage of English and the examples it gives are a little corny. So you just have to imagine somebody speaking it like this. Because that was the parlance of the times. But if you can get through that, everybody should read that book called “How to Win Friends and Influence People”.
Ray Richards
My guess is that didn’t transform. It just reconfirmed what you probably were already thinking anyway, that this is a good way to behave in the world.
Derek Sivers
I think it probably transformed my actions. I don’t think I would have done it before reading that book, I think it made me go, “Oh that’s a good point. People do need to hear more nice things.” I’m a guy. I never get compliments. Guys don’t get compliments.
Ray Richards
Although I do like your red polo neck there. That’s looking good.
Niel Witten
And we love the sounds that I practice--
Derek Sivers
Yeah.
Niel Witten
I love the sound booth. So let’s just zoom in on books for a second. So you are a fanatic reader. You’ve got 200 odd books that you’ve written about on your website, you’ve reviewed and given them. Is it something like that?
Derek Sivers
That’s since 2007. I’m not a fanatic reader. I know there’s some people that just read two books a week or whatever. Those are all the books I’ve read since 2007. So I think I read it maybe a little more than average, but definitely not a fanatic reader.
Niel Witten
I heard in another podcast conversation, I think that you read Tony Robbins’ book “Awakening The Giant Within” at a relatively young age. And I think I remember hearing you talking about that being quite a transformation moment for you. Can you talk to that for a second? What I’m particularly interested in is it sounds like books are acting as a lever of change for you. I don’t know if they do that for everybody, but I’m really interested to hear a bit more about how do you think about the role that books play in not just learning and thinking, but doing?
Derek Sivers
Let’s not overfocus on books themselves, bound paper. All that really matters is getting the ideas from one person’s head into another. So some people these days--a friend of mine is only 22 and just doesn’t read books only watches YouTube. And to me, YouTube is trash. But to him, he’s like, “No, there’s a lot of good stuff out there. You’ve got to know how to find it. You just ignore the trash.” And I went, “Wow, okay, I’m trying to open my mind to the idea that YouTube can be an effective communicator of wisdom from one head to another.” For some people, they just read lots of articles. They won’t sit and read a book, but they’ll read many, many articles. And of course, clearly for lots of people, it’s podcasts. That podcasts have changed people’s lives. But yeah, for me it’s books. Maybe because well, let’s just say my age. It’s what I had at the time.
Derek Sivers
You grew up with books was the thing. That’s how you found information out. You went to the library, you were at school. Your parents, maybe--I don’t know whether they were into books or not, but yeah, that would have been the obvious way. Before the internet.
Derek Sivers
So maybe I just got used to the idea that the best wisdom is in books. Also, I really appreciate even now that how commercial free they are. So even if you say there’s a lot of good wisdom on YouTube, you’ve also got to be bombarded by the interruptions and the ads or even the in video sponsored thing. Hey, everybody. So let me tell you some wisdom. But first, today’s talk is sponsored by climbingdeergear.com. So I like how commercial free books are. That just commercialism just doesn’t enter into it.
Niel Witten
But that’s interesting, isn’t it? Because you can pay for YouTube and not get the sponsor, the advertising, but we don’t.
Derek Sivers
Yeah, I do. It’s interesting seeing commercial free YouTube, but still there’s the--actually, it’s a distracting point, I was going to say but even just the way that they’re made, you can tell that they’re made in order to get the sponsored views. Or they they make sure that the length is at least 10 minutes so they get more income. But then as soon as I was going to say that, I was like, well, a lot of publishers make sure those books are 300 pages, so you can see the spine on the shelf. Maybe I should shut up about that.
Derek Sivers
But let’s get back to the real point that no matter what medium you use to get ideas from one person said into yours. Then it’s about just how motivated or driven you are to act on it. So I read Tony Robbins “Awaken The Giant Within” at a really formative age of 19, and it was recommended to me by somebody that I loved a lot. It was really like a dear mentor to me. Said, “You should read this. This changed my life. You are going to love this.” And so with that weight behind it, I pored over every word like this is it. And also I was, at the time, extremely driven to be a successful musician. I was a single focused mission in my life. I’m going to be a successful musician. So I thought that reading this Tony Robbins’ book could help give me what it takes to be that one in a million successful musician. Because that’s something that everybody wants. Everybody wants to be a rock star, but only one in a million get it? And I was like, “I’m going to be the one that gets it.” So I pored over every word and really ingested every idea to take it seriously. I’m going to do this, I’m going to learn this mindset, I’m going to learn this mentality, I’m going to do it.
Niel Witten
And that’s the next dimension of what we’re interested in, interested in and around how and why people change, and how that’s happened with you. So I’m just going to play back what I’ve heard. It’s not the book, it’s the ideas that makes a ton of sense. But then from there it’s not just the ideas, it’s how motivated you are to do something with them. And the fact that a mentor had given you that with real weight behind it probably helped with your motivation. But it also sounds like there was a lot of motivation dormant, ready. Is that fair?
Derek Sivers
Yeah, exactly.
Niel Witten
So can we can we go there for a minute? Tell us about that motivation. So let’s start as the the version of Derek that was looking to be a musician. Where did that start? What were you feeling and how might that have been different to other people around you at the time?
Derek Sivers
Do you guys ever talk about negative motivation, like the motivation of moving away from something? So yes, at the age of 14, I picked up a guitar and stepped on a distortion pedal and went, “Oh, fuck yeah! I love this sound.” The sound of a teenage soul coming through that distortion pedal. But also it’s just like an introvert. I loved sitting alone in my room for hours practicing finger exercises, arpeggios and scales. And this is late eighties. I was doing the heavy metal guitar thing. And I just loved that I got social reward from it immediately. Because I was really good at it.
Derek Sivers
So after just one summer of practicing, I showed up at school again in the autumn and everyone was like, “Dude, you fucking rock. Hey, everybody, check him out. Derek’s fucking awesome.” So I got the social reward, and I just loved doing it. So I’m like, “This is what I’m going to do. I’m going to be a musician.” That’s just my tale. But I think the takeaway lesson from this is, it doesn’t really matter what you pursue, it helps everything, though, to have something you’re pursuing. Whether you just want to be great at chess or you want to be great at parkour, or you want to be a heavy metal guitarist or whatever it may be, to have something that you’re pursuing, that you’re focusing your energy and ambition on that, something that’s driving you forward.
Niel Witten
Because if you don’t have that, any road will get you there.
Derek Sivers
Right. And then you’re just adrift.
Niel Witten
Exactly. You’re adrift. You’re lost. And it doesn’t matter. We’ve talked about goals before and goals, they’re not everything, but they allow you to take the next step.
Derek Sivers
I like the physical metaphor of thinking of a mountain peak in the distance. That if you can actually imagine one of those places, if you live in a place that has mountains. I think most of us don’t. That would be interesting to find out. Like the percentage of people on earth that live within sight of a mountain or not. I think most don’t. It feels rare to have like an actual mountain in the distance, but when you do, you can see it from everywhere, no matter where you are. You can always just turn your head unless there’s a tree in the way. But for the most part, the few steps you can see that mountain in distance and metaphorically then that can become the thing that you’re like, “That’s where I’m going.” So no matter what else happens in life, something pushes you astray. There’s a road closed here, you need to go a bit west, even though you’re headed north. Like, there it is. There’s the mountain that I’m going towards, it keeps you focused and driven. Whereas on the other hand, if you’re just like, “I don’t know, I just want to go somewhere--”
Ray Richards
But that’s motivation, isn’t it? So Derek is now wandering around his booth.
Derek Sivers
I think that having anything that you’re shooting towards then makes you filter all of the incoming information from the world through that mission. So that’s me reading a Tony Robbins book at 19 that has nothing to do with music. But everything I’m reading, I’m applying it to like, how can I use this to be a successful musician? And it kept me focus on that.
Ray Richards
Can I just tell you? Sorry, go on.
Niel Witten
I just want to take you back to that, was it 14 year old version of Derek? And you’ve learned some finger technique in your room, and then you go into school and. And you get some social reward. And that spurs you on a bit more. So many other kids would have done a lot of the same things and still not ended up pursuing that. Maybe they saw the mountain peak and they imagined it, and maybe they got a bit of social reward. Maybe they went so far along the journey, but maybe they got distracted. Who knows what it was? But they but they didn’t continue. They didn’t get to a point where they felt they could call themselves a musician. And you did. What was different?
Derek Sivers
Thanks for coming back to that. That was the negative motivation that I had. A couple other I won’t even say friends. There were a couple other guys in high school. That were great musicians, but then got sucked into the domestic life. The guy that used to be like the best guitarist in school. I saw him like as soon as he graduated. He’s like, “Yeah, well I got to get a job, and my girlfriend and I are going to move in together. So I want to start to save money to have a baby. And I play guitar every now and then, but got a job laying pipes for the village of Hinsdale.” Then there was another one too, that had a similar path. And these guys were my massive, massive, massive negative motivation. I’d say, all the way from the age of 16 to, God probably well into my early twenties. I was so driven to not be them. I was like, “No, never.” And so no wonder I didn’t have a steady girlfriend because I had negative associations with that. Like, “Oh no, that’s the beginning of you getting sucked into that domestic life.” No wonder I didn’t have a pet or a house or God, even a job. I had negative associations with having a job.
Ray Richards
Why? What was wrong with that? What was wrong with that path?
Derek Sivers
Because that would get you sucked in to depending on the job. Most people don’t have this terminology, but as a musician or probably anybody who’s hoping to make a living with creative stuff, there’s this term day job. Your day job is meant as like, “Yeah, I’m doing this from 9 to 5 just to pay the bills. But it’s just for now.” My real life is the stuff after 5:00, the music, the writing, whatever.
Ray Richards
So the music, let’s call it career. Maybe it’s the wrong word, but the life is a musician was something you--why did you want to be a musician? Is it because it gave you freedom? Is it because it makes you popular with girls? Was it because you just loved playing?
Derek Sivers
I think it was self actualization.
Ray Richards
Yeah. Okay.
Derek Sivers
In hindsight. It’s funny you guys must have this. Any time you ask somebody why, you can’t really trust their answer. Most of us don’t even know why. Why did I get a dog? I mean, I can tell you some answer, but it’s probably bullshit. So now you ask about me back in 1985, why I did something. Who knows? But in hindsight, or maybe in my little storytelling, it feels like it was the drive of self actualization. How tall does a tree grow? As tall as it can. Everything in nature has an unspoken drive to just be all it can be. Every plant grows as big as it can. Every animal gets as healthy as it can be. So to me it was just that drive.
Ray Richards
So it was, and I don’t want to put words in your mouth and you won’t let me, I know. But it’s something about curiosity. It’s something about adventure. It’s something about stepping into the unknown. It’s--
Derek Sivers
Challenge.
Ray Richards
Challenge.
Derek Sivers
Self challenge. Give yourself a mission. I’m going to do this thing and then it’s like, let’s see if I can do that.
Ray Richards
It’s not safety, comfort zone, the known, stability. So was there something you were reacting to? What did your parents do? Did you grow up with your parents?
Derek Sivers
Yeah, they weren’t a big influence on my life. I think it helped that. I grew up thinking we were rich, but rich in the definition of like upper middle class. Only found out later that we weren’t. I thought we were. Point is, I thought there was a safety net. That there wasn’t a fear of being destitute if I didn’t get rich. I thought I’d be fine. I could fall back on the grandparents or whatever. So that helped a lot. But no, I think a lot of that drive was just the negative motivation from not wanting to be those musicians that gave up and joined the regular world. No, I’m going to challenge myself to be that one in a million that actually does this thing.
Niel Witten
I’m going to park old Derek and come to today Derek. And I’m going to move backwards and forwards, if that’s okay. So let’s go back to the Derek of now. When you meet people for the first time and they ask you that horrid question of what do you do, how do you answer it today?
Derek Sivers
It depends if I want to engage them in conversation or not. My favorite short answer. If I don’t want to talk to somebody is I say, I’m a programmer and most people at that point will go, “Oh.”
Ray Richards
That’s nice for you. Let’s move on to the guy next door.
Derek Sivers
Yeah, exactly. But what’s fun is if they actually know their stuff with tech, and they’re just like, “Oh, what programming do you do? Do you do Back end? You do database?” I’m like, “Oh, really? Are we going to talk tech?” Okay, now this is fun because I actually really enjoy talking tech. Programming is a huge part of my life. I spent a massive chunk of my life programming in SQL and Ruby and I love it, love it, love it, love it. So for somebody that actually wants to talk tech, that’s great. But for most people, it just shuts down the conversation right there. But if I’m talking to somebody that I care about, or let’s just say that I am interested to have a real conversation with, then I’ll tell them I’m an author. Then I have to get ready for the next question, which is, “Oh, what books do you write?” And so my short answer now is pop philosophy. And that makes them go, “Hmm, pop philosophy. What does that mean?” And then I have to say, “Well my one book was on creative and considerate fame. One book was about what’s worth doing. My last book was about how to live. My next book is about beliefs that are useful, not true.” And they go, “Wow, okay.” And then you just look at their blank look of like, “Oh, hell, what do we talk about now?” So that’s how it usually goes.
Niel Witten
Do you remember when you started to, if you wanted to engage to answer as an author?
Derek Sivers
I think about two years ago. Two years ago is when I put out those two books in a row, “Your Music and People” and “Hell yeah or No”. I put out those two books at the same time thinking they would just generate a few thousand dollars to help pay for the cost of printing. But they did really well. And suddenly I’m like, “Oh damn, I guess I’m officially an author now.”
Niel Witten
But am I right that you’d written a number of other books before that?
Derek Sivers
Not really no. There’s the book called “Anything You Want” that I wrote in 2011 and was republished by Penguin in 2015. And then I just bought back the rights and rereleased it this year, 2022. That was my first book. Then I have “Your Music and People” and “Hell Yeah or No”, which I wrote a few years ago. And then “How to Live”, which I published last year. So those are my four books so far. If you go to--There used to be 32 other books on Amazon that was--I was the producer of a series of books I called Wood Egg, I was trying to understand the culture of 16 different countries in Asia. So I was the producer that hired like 185 writers and researchers to put together the information. It was my name on it because I was the impresario that made it happen. But I didn’t write those books. I just produced them.
Niel Witten
Got it. Okay. When you started to make that transition towards writing, because you’ve always written, is my understanding, or certainly for a long, long time. But not necessarily as books, but online, etc. When you started to think about writing the first book. What was driving you towards that?
Derek Sivers
Easy answer. Seth Godin asked me to.
Niel Witten
I thought you were going to say that because I’ve actually got it written down. I’ve got a copy of the book. It came in the post literally the other day, and it’s nice to have it in my hands. I’ve read it online, but it’s nice to actually be able to read it in a physical version, But it says “Dedicated entirely to Seth Godin.” This book only exists because of his encouragement, and I was really intrigued by that. Tell us more.
Derek Sivers
Sure. I had no interest in writing a book. I don’t put any ego into the idea of being a published author. I didn’t care about that at all. I was thoroughly happy to just get thoughts from my brain to yours by using the internet. Just blogging. That’s enough. It’s very friction free. It just puts the words from my head into yours without even you needing to buy anything. Just here. Here’s some words. Read it. There you go. So I’d never intended to do a book. People had asked me for years to do a book. I always said no. But then one day I got a phone call from a number I didn’t recognize. I picked up the phone and, “Derek, it’s Seth Godin.” “Oh, my God. Hi.” And he said, “Look, I’m starting a new publishing company and I want you to be my first author.” I went, “Okay.” And he said, “Yeah, it’s going to be short. Just 11,000 words. Maybe the story of how you started and built and sold CD baby.” I said, “All right.” He said, “So you’re in?” I said, “Yeah.” He said, “Okay, great.” I said, “Thanks.” So I wrote the book in 11 days and handed it to him. And he said, “This is great. I’m going to call it Anything You Want.” I said, “Oh, all right.” It’s a weird title. Sure, whatever. And he released it a month later, and that was that.
Ray Richards
So did you know Seth before that?
Derek Sivers
We had met a couple of times. Yeah, I went up to--he lives about an hour north of New York City, and I had gone up and shared a meal with him and met a couple of times.
Niel Witten
And is it fair to say then that his input is similar to the input that we were talking about from the mentor that you described before? So there was an amount of gravitas to his nudge in a direction.
Derek Sivers
Yeah. I guess we all have a version of that. We all have--there’s somebody that could call you up and say, I want you to do this. And you’d say, okay.
Ray Richards
I’m not sure we do have that.
Derek Sivers
Now, come on. If the president of some country called you up and said, I want you to be in charge of this. You’d go, Okay.
Niel Witten
But that doesn’t actually happen. There are a lot of people around the world, and I’m not talking about necessarily people, even the people that will listen to this. But there are lots of people out there who don’t have that in their life. They never get that phone call. They never say try reading this book.
Derek Sivers
No, I think, and that’s why I was so surprised at it, too. That’s why the story is is almost laughable. Why did you write a book? Because omfg Seth Godin called and said, I’m starting a new publishing company and I want you to be my first author. How do you say no to that?
Ray Richards
I guess the message to all of us in a way, is to be that person. Be that person that recommends that book or asks somebody to do something. Somebody believe in that can do something that maybe hasn’t done it before. To be that--what is that person? I don’t know. Is it a mentor?
Derek Sivers
We’re talking about this level, like Seth Godin was, is a hero to me. I looked up to him for so many years, loved all of his books, pored over every word he wrote. I just look up to him as a person too. Not just for his books. But it can happen on a medium scale too. Like when I was in a band in New York City, and asked this guitarist I heard playing like, “You are awesome. I want you to be in my band.” He’s like, “Really?” I was like, “Yeah, you’re amazing. I love the way you play. I love the way that you did this with that little”--got really specific and told him what I loved about his playing. I said, “I’d really like you to be in my band.”
Ray Richards
And that goes back to exactly what you were saying earlier. You will stop a lady in the street or a guy in the street and say, I love that hat or you look--whatever it is. It’s what comes into your mind, that positivity that’s in your mind, you share it.
Derek Sivers
Yeah, because there’s this core belief most people don’t hear enough nice things. And so if you’re thinking something nice about somebody, you should tell them.
Ray Richards
Yeah, why not?
Derek Sivers
Yeah. Get over your--It’s not about you.
Ray Richards
That’s right, or just leave it. I don’t know. Hand them an envelope with something scribbled inside it. And they’ll open it later.As you say it’s not about you. It’s about us encouraging each other to go out and maybe do the stuff that we want to do, but fear failure.
Derek Sivers
Yeah. Any time you give somebody a compliment like that. You’re really being vulnerable.
Niel Witten
Yes, that’s right.
Derek Sivers
And that’s why when you receive a compliment, and sorry, this is a very un-English opinion that you should just take it by saying thank you. Because when somebody gives you a compliment, you have to acknowledge how vulnerable that was of them to come up and say this to you, even if it’s just by email. So I know the very common thing to do, if somebody says, “Wow, I love that song you wrote.” And we all immediately do the self-deffacing like, “Oh, no, I should have done it better, it’s really not one of my best work.” Which then is insulting the person that just vulnerably came up to you to give you this compliment, to tell them that they’re wrong. Instead, when somebody gives you a compliment, you just say thank you. And what you’re really doing is just saying thanks to them for having the the courage. The balls to use a technical term to come up and say this to you.
Niel Witten
Ray said earlier when we were talking about this point, confidence. Building up the confidence to do it And you described yourself, I think, as an introvert. So you have learned the confidence to do this. I’m really interested in understanding a bit more about where do you think that confidence came from? Were you born with some natural flair? Or was it learned?
Derek Sivers
No, definitely learned. Experience. I gave myself a mission as a teenager. Just scribbling in my notebook one day and I wrote down this sentence. Whatever scares you, go do it. With the follow on thought being, because then you won’t be scared anymore. I’ve followed that ever since. And in fact, I love that idea so much. I even made it a lullaby for my kid that I would sing him every night to sleep. It’s like, whatever scares you, go do it. Because then you won’t be scared anymore. And I follow that for both little and big decisions in life. So little decisions like the ones we’re talking about right now. Approaching a stranger through any medium to tell them a compliment, a sincere one that’s a little like, “Oh, this scares me. Oh, therefore I should go do it right?”
Derek Sivers
It’s just this rule of thumb. That’s what rules of thumb are good for. They’re like little things that you keep in your pocket that you carry with you everywhere. And then even in the big life decisions. Huge decisions, like my decision to leave America and never go back was the scarier option to me. I could have just stayed in my comfort zone in Los Angeles or New York City two places that are big comfort zones to me. Or I could challenge myself, like when I thought about what if I were to leave America and just keep pushing out into the world and never come back? And I was like, “Oh, that’s scary.” So it’s like, there you go. Whatever scares you, go do it.
Niel Witten
That was a very bright statement to write again at that age. And again, I know I’m asking a lot because it’s hard to go back there and it’s hard to remember what was going on. And there’s all the stories and all the rest of it. But what was driving you to think like that at that age?
Derek Sivers
It might have helped that--I remember sitting in the back of a psychology class, like a Basic Psychology 101, where we learned about Abraham Maslow. So while Freud was studying sick people, trying to find out why they were mentally deranged, Abraham Maslow was studying the world’s healthiest people, trying to find out why they were so damn healthy. I remember he studied Einstein and Eleanor Roosevelt and people like that to figure, like, how did they succeed? You guys couldn’t relate to this at all. And so he made this pyramid of self actualization that he used to describe, like, okay, we have these foundational things, food and shelter. And as you move up, a sense of belonging, love, and at the very tippy top of the pyramid, he called that self actualization like this drive to be your ultimate self. Your best self. So I loved that. Like, basically slumped in the back of the class listening to stories of B.F. Skinner’s box and Pavlov’s dogs. And none of that was interesting. But when they started talking about Abraham Maslow, I went, “Oh, okay, this is interesting.” Like trying to be all you can be. I like this. So Abraham Maslow had this great phrase.
Derek Sivers
It was a guideline that he shared with the world from what he had learned from studying healthy people, which is every day or 100 times a day you’re presented with the choice between safety and risk. And he said, “Make the growth choice 100 times a day.” And I liked that idea, which is like every single day and just little tiny moments, the decision to speak to somebody or not the decision to raise your hand and say, “Yes, I’ll volunteer or not.” The decision to leave your comfort zone to get out of a rut or not, we have these choices 100 times a day. So I think maybe just as a 15 or 16 year old, I read that and it was probably tied in with my desire to be a successful musician. That’s why I strongly prescribe this to anybody, even to my kid. Like my kid’s only ten, but someday, really soon, he needs to pick something and it doesn’t matter what it is to be a gymnast or a gardener or whatever. But like, when you’ve got something that’s driving you like that, you start to look for things to help you be your best self so that you can achieve this thing.
Ray Richards
And when you step out of your comfort zone, when you’ve gone into the unknown, when you’ve taken risks, however you want to describe it and. I’m assuming. That there have been moments, periods, maybe even long periods, where you’ve gone, “What the fuck am I doing? This is hard work. Why have I done it or not?” Hmm.
Derek Sivers
No. I think I always know why. I don’t ask why I think it’s hard work. It feels like like, haha, this is the shit that separates the men from the boys? Like, yeah, this is the stuff that would knock off the competitors. This is the stuff that most people won’t go through. But I am. I’m going to do it. And I think I would get excited at that.
Ray Richards
And is that because you’ve been there, done it, and each time you’ve been through it and it’s worked out.
Derek Sivers
And maybe that stuff is like I hear that from books. I hear that. Or just using your hunch, like most people. Anybody can say like, “Hey, I think I want to make an app. I have an idea for an app I want to make.” But most people won’t go through the slog work of the hundreds of hours of coding and wireframes and A, B, testing and all that stuff. They won’t go there. They just want to just like have an idea and then go hang out with their friends and...
Ray Richards
Because they get they get their chemical hit from the idea and just talking about it.
Derek Sivers
Right. So I think any time you’re doing this slog work, you I think I’ve just associated the slog work with this is the stuff that most people wouldn’t go through. And so I get this. Even when it’s hard, I know why I’m doing it is because this is what’s necessary. To get where I want to go. So actually, in a weird way, get a bit of joy from it. Like, yep, doing the labor like somebody who’s building a house.
Ray Richards
And I can keep going. Is what you’re saying to yourself. I can keep going. I know that you’re , the others are not going to keep going, but I’m going to keep going. And each time you’ve done that, it’s worked out.
Derek Sivers
There’s a book by Erica LeMay spelled e-r-i-k-a l-i-m-a-y called “Almost Perfect”. She’s this a gold medal winning acrobat contortionist aerial artist, I think is the term. She flies through the air and does this gorgeous body work in the air. So she wrote a book about her mentality in training. And it’s part of this. It’s like I have a vision for where I want to be and all of this hard work I’m doing and all the pain that I’m feeling is the path to get there. When I’m feeling the pain, I know I’m on the right path to get where I want to go. So she describes it better in her book. She’s also a hero to me in her approach to this stuff, so I highly recommend that book and if you guys like it, you might. She’s out there doing it. She would probably be a really interesting guest for you guys because her book called “Almost Perfect” really went into a lot of the questions that you’re asking me today. That’s a lot of what her book is about.
Niel Witten
Oh, great. Well, we’ll definitely look that up. It sounds like from that early age, you’ve started playing this game with yourself. And so you’re sort of treating life as a game where you’re. But they’re your rules. And so the idea of go towards the thing that scares you is part of the game. And the idea that there is the mountain and I can see where it is and I’m going to keep going to get to the top of that mountain because that’s where I’m going is part of the game. Have there been elements where the game hasn’t served you, where you’ve really had to rewire the game, rethink the game? I’ll give you an example of what I’m thinking. So you sold your business. And often when people sell their businesses, they go through a period of -- someone was describing it to me as the tunnel. They go into the tunnel and it normally takes five years or so for them to come out the other side of the tunnel. I mean, I think that’s going to be really different for different people. But I’ve experienced lots of people that have sold their businesses and have gone through a tunnel of sorts because they were.
Derek Sivers
What can you?
Niel Witten
Well, I think it’s a metaphor, so you knew who you were and you defined yourself so much by what you did, how you did it, even what you did every day. That business became a big part of you. And then once it’s not there. You have to start looking at yourself and figuring out who you are again without that ingredient. And the tunnel is you going through that process.
Derek Sivers
Okay. Hmm. Some metaphors are self explanatory, Some aren’t. And. Yeah. Sorry. You asked was there. So. Yes, I went through that too. When I sold CD Baby, I chose to deliberately scramble it though. Like literally the day after I sold CD Baby. I started my next company called MuckWork, and I got right to work on it. And after a few months I said, “Wait a minute, if I keep doing this, I’m just going to be doing the same thing I’ve been doing for the last ten years, but with a new company name over my head. I don’t want to do that. I want to make a real change in my life.” So I deliberately scrambled it and I spent a couple of years reversing all of my usual decisions. Sorry, maybe inverting is what I mean. And meaning whatever I used to say yes to, I’d say no to. Whatever I used to say no to, I’d say yes to. At any of those dozen times a day where you’ve got a little decision to make, I would take the fork in the road that felt the most unlike me. Like, “Well, usually I do that, so therefore I’m going to go do this instead.” And yeah, it sure did make a scramble in my life. I did a bunch of crazy stuff for a few years that scrambled all of my existing patterns and sent me off. And suddenly I’m living in Singapore attending a Mongolian Chamber of Commerce meeting and things like that that I never would have done. And it was a wonderful scrambling. But yeah.
Niel Witten
So you started work because that’s what you were. That’s what you were programmed at the time to do. You’ve created a business. That business sold. How to create a business. So you start another business and that idea that you’re climbing the mountain is maybe what you weren’t feeling at the time is “I reached the top of that mountain.” I might have actually reached it some time ago. And now there’s another mountain to pursue. But this idea of scrambling in order to reprogram yourself is really fascinating because, again, you’re talking about that now as though it was a very deliberate act. Was it a deliberate act? And was that because you felt something? So did you just notice that something wasn’t feeling right and you responded to that and again, in a gamified way?
Derek Sivers
Hmm. Yeah, I felt that I was doing the same thing I had been doing for ten years, which --
Ray Richards
Is on autopilot?
Derek Sivers
Um, no. Not on autopilot. Just like. I mean, sometimes it’s admirable. Paul McCartney keeps writing songs.
Niel Witten
Exactly right. Yeah.
Derek Sivers
And so some people want that path. That would have been a completely valid path for me to take that in 2008 when I sold CD Baby. I could have started MuckWork. And I could have grown it into a big company. And there were some people that did similar companies at the same time. Taskrabbit came up shortly after that and some others like that. I’m forgetting the names right now, and they sold for hundreds of millions of dollars to bigger companies like I think TaskRabbit, IKEA, I think, which is a surprise. So yeah, I could have gone that path and I could have made more money. But so what? So for some people, that’s their values. It’s say, “Okay, this is what I’m good at, so therefore I’m going to keep doing this thing.” And I just have a slightly different value system where I said, okay, my value system is more like been there, done that.
Derek Sivers
One more, tried that, I want another something else, I want another challenge. And that’s the kick you get is out of learning. It’s expanding. I really like expanding my sense of self. I like expanding my self identity to include other countries, to include other skills, to include other beliefs and paths taken, even with beliefs. If you guys saw my last book called “How to Live”. It’s 27 different answers to the question of how to live your life. Each one, each chapter conflicting with all the others. So some of those come very naturally to me. There’s a chapter on mastery pick something difficult and and master it. That chapter was very much like, that’s Derek, that’s very much me. And there were other chapters in there that are very not me, but I’ve learned to adopt a different approach to life and that is a deeper joy to me, is that expanding my self identity to fully adopt other ways of thinking about life.
Ray Richards
So what’s the polar opposite to how to master it.
Derek Sivers
Nah, probably do nothing. My girlfriend of the last two years read the book, and that was the chapter that she related to the most. She is like the opposite of me and really values doing nothing almost in this. Or what do we call that thing where you go? Is that vipassana where you go sit for ten days?
Ray Richards
Yeah. Did did it recently. Did it earlier this year.
Derek Sivers
Oh, you did. Yeah. Oh, wow. Okay. So she highly values that. And I don’t so learning to value doing nothing. Or just being hedonistic and just filling your senses with everything to say, “The future is just our imagination. The past is just a memory. All that really exists is right now.”
Ray Richards
Yeah.
Derek Sivers
Just go fill your senses.
Ray Richards
So do you think in any way that you’re in a relationship with her because she is the yin to your yang? Is that why we get into relationships? Because somebody else is sort of providing that other , and you are to her.
Derek Sivers
Yeah, that was the appeal. We broke up a few months ago.
Ray Richards
Okay.
Derek Sivers
It’s two different. I think sometimes it can work. I think opposites can be intriguing. And sometimes opposites can balance each other out well. But if you can’t relate.
Ray Richards
Yeah, yeah. If you can’t speak the same language, you’re. And well, you can’t relate. That’s it.
Derek Sivers
Yeah. I was often lonely when I was with her. And she felt the same. And so after two years, we broke up. But it was fascinating getting to know her. I mean, at almost every level. Her values were completely different than mine on almost every subject, Including this since you asked. Like the opposite of mastery.
Ray Richards
Yeah. It’s interesting, isn’t it? And I think that’s a real. I think that’s why it’s so wonderful to put yourself in a position where you’re hanging out with people that are so very different to you because you can. You don’t have to, you don’t have to hang out with them all the time or forever. But my God, you can really learn from each other.
Derek Sivers
I loved that about living in Singapore. I still wish I lived in Singapore. My ex, who I have a kid with, doesn’t like it there. And so that’s the only reason we’re not there. But Singapore is such an interesting melting pot of Asian cultures. Everybody’s from somewhere else. It’s just this tiny little island that just, I think only 200 years ago had basically no people. And so everybody’s come in from around the region. So you have the people from the South, China, but also the Malaysians and the Indonesians come up in the Philippines, come in, and people come in from Bangladesh and India and they’re all together in this little melting pot of a tight island. And it’s a fascinating place to be confronted with very different value systems every day. And in fact, that’s why if any of you listening, if you’ve ever heard the the jokes, the mean jokes about Singapore saying that it’s a city full of cruel rules and high fines and all that, the reason Singapore has to be like that is because it’s a small, dense place with so many massively different cultures in one place that there’s no agreement on common sense. Yeah, what somebody’s deeply ingrained in a Chinese Confucian culture would believe is common sense is very different to what somebody that grew up in Indonesia would believe is common sense, which is very different to what somebody from the Philippines or well.
Ray Richards
I mean, India, this is playing out at the moment with the World Cup Qatar it’s just incredible that we have very different understanding about what is right and what is wrong. And that’s interesting because I remember spending time in Singapore and seeing signs saying no durians on the underground thinking, why would anybody take a durian on the underground? It smells so awful.
Derek Sivers
But yeah, for some people that would just come in Malaysia, it would make a lot of sense why not? It’s Malaysia. As soon as you cross the border into Malaysia, it’s a much looser culture, but then more of a monoculture. I’ve known some people that a lot of people, in fact, that had to leave Malaysia because they felt oppressed by the monoculture of Malaysia. So yeah, Singapore is just fascinating for that. If you understand that the tight rules are there because there’s no sense of common sense, we have to follow written rules to letter in order for us to all get along. I think it’s actually governmental genius and it works. But as long as you understand, that’s why it is the way it is. It’s such a great place to get to know a lot of people with very different points of view.
Ray Richards
Yeah. I mean, Neil and I have talked about this many occasions, but we sort of think that if you want to become, in our language, more behaviorally flexible if you want to expand your comfort zone go to new places. If you go to new places, you’re going to meet new people. I mean, by all means, stay in the same place and meet new people. But if you go somewhere else, you’re going to meet new people. And then also, if you’re going somewhere else, you have got this incredible opportunity to experiment with your own personality. , you can you leave New York, you leave Los Angeles, and you go to New Zealand or Singapore anyway you don’t know anybody. Nobody knows what you’ve been like in the past. You’ve got an opportunity to just be different.
Derek Sivers
Yeah, I love that. It’s very American because America is such a big country with such a big variety in those states. Life in Florida is very different from life in Maine is very different from life in Wyoming. But you’re allowed to just move to any of them, no questions asked. So a lot of people do that in America. It’s actually when my ex and I broke up two or three months ago, this is the first time in my life I haven’t moved the day after a breakup, like literally every other breakup I’ve ever had in my entire life. I’ve literally moved to a new place the day we broke up. You break up on a Tuesday, move on a Wednesday. That’s what you do.
Ray Richards
That’s super interesting, isn’t it? I mean, so you’re really reacting. You’re you’re using it as. What are you doing? Are you running away or are you sort of saying this is an opportunity, this is a springboard? I bollocks. I can go off and do what I want.
Derek Sivers
Yeah. Opportunity to springboard. Usually just kind of coincides with the living situation either. I was living at her place. She was living at my place. We break up, just somebody moves out and I’ve always just --
Ray Richards
So your boy’s your mum lives in New Zealand.
Derek Sivers
Yeah. Just down the road. We’re both with him every week
Ray Richards
So the decisions where you live you’re making them together. So it’s not as if you’re completely free to make the decisions you want. There is a there’s a conversation that goes on, right.
Derek Sivers
For the next seven years. Yep. Yeah. And we have to make these decisions together because we both want to be with him every week. He wants to be with both of us every week. So, yeah, we have to agree on where to live.
Ray Richards
Yeah. And so did you buy the puppy?
Derek Sivers
No, we actually had a dog in England that we loved when we lived in Oxford. We had a dog that we loved dearly. And when COVID hit and we moved back to New Zealand, we had to let go of the dog. So I gave the dog away. And so for the last two years, two and a half years, my boy had no dog. And he’s just like, could we please, please, please, for the dog. And so like, finally, the time was right. I own a house here in New Zealand now it’s got a big yard. It’s December, which means summer is just beginning. So he’s about to have a lot of free time on summer holidays. I was like, “All right, actually, now’s the right time to get a puppy.”
Ray Richards
And whereabouts are you? You’re in the North Island, I think, said Wellington.
Derek Sivers
Yeah. Bottom of the North Island. Yeah. Wellington dead center.
Ray Richards
Yep. Okay. So you’re not too far from the South Island?
Derek Sivers
No. Nice short ferry ride.
Ray Richards
Yeah.
Niel Witten
The pop psychology. Derek, When and how did that come about?
Derek Sivers
Oh, wait, you mean the pop philosophy of my books or my interest in psychology?
Niel Witten
Yeah. Well, you described earlier that you. You said I’m an author. What stuff?
Derek Sivers
Pop philosophy. Yeah, that I just realized that I think about a year ago. I think I realized that’s the gist of my books. Even when I was writing about starting and growing and selling CD Baby in my book called “Anything You Want”. It was really, in a way like a different philosophy of running a small business. Yeah, I approached it philosophically. As you can tell, I’m extremely not academic. I went to a music school, all of my interest in everything since getting out of music school has all just been self directed from books. I’ve done nothing in academia, so I don’t have very robust, defendable definitions of things like this. But to me, being philosophical usually means to me to like break something down to its essence and question it to its core. And get down to the root of it. So I think that I did that a lot. With my business, asking myself constantly, like, why am I really doing this? Like, what’s the real point? The real point is to help musicians. Does it help musicians more? If I do a bunch of advertising, no, it doesn’t. So why would I do it? And I won’t. Does it help musicians more if I put advertising on my site? No. So I won’t do it.
Derek Sivers
Does it help musicians more if -- I’d keep using that as a guideline, but then I’d ask myself, then why do I want to help musicians? I like it because I think it’s a fun challenge because I think that they need it, because I think they don’t get enough help from the world because a lot of independent musicians are not very profitable. And so at every stage I’d ask myself, why am I really doing things? And I break it down to its essence. And so because of that, I’d make a decision that most people wouldn’t make because it’s not the norm. I don’t usually just follow norms. I very often break things down to their essence and question why. And come up with an answer that feels congruent to me, or at least interesting. So then it’s the same with my next two book. So there was my book called “Your Music and People” was actually a collection of advice I’d been giving to musicians for years about reaching their audience that in a way does the same process. It’s like, what is marketing, really? Marketing is helping people connect with what you’re doing. Well, what’s a good way to do that? It’s to be considerate, to first understand from their point of view, why are they going out on a Thursday night for drinks to hear live music? What are they really hoping to get out of this? Is it to hear your chord changes or is it to forget about their day? Right.
Derek Sivers
So even speaking with musicians about understanding things from the other point of other person’s point of view from your audience’s point of view, and then you can start to see marketing as just another way of being considerate. That marketing means being considerate. You’re helping them connect with you, and the better that you can help them connect with what you’re doing, the better your so called marketing. It doesn’t need spamming and advertising. And then in my book, “Hell Yeah or No”, I know I would spent quite a few years asking myself what’s worth doing with this same thought process? And so all in all, it’s like, I think that’s like the common thread behind all of my books is they’re philosophical, but not in any way like what most people associate with philosophy is like, “Well, now let’s talk about what Aristotle said about logic. And Plato said and what all of these dead men said.” That’s how most people think of philosophy, including me. I still think like when I hear the word philosophy, I’m like it sounds academic, but pop philosophy to me is just a very day-to-day useful way of breaking things down to their essence and questioning them.
Ray Richards
It sounds like and you were talking about it earlier, that the way you make decisions is about understanding the sincerity of it. It’s really looking inside yourself and you’re talking about advertising. I can’t remember you saying earlier about the emails you would write to to Mark and people like that. It just has to be sincere and I think that is such a lesson when when we are sincere, people understand it. And they buy into it because we’re sincere. If we’re doing something because somebody told us, that’s how we can generate revenue. It’s just fucking out? It’s not much fun, is it?
Derek Sivers
Well, right. But then it’s, I think it’s about getting to the core of why you’re really doing anything. Yeah. It’s this is why. Hmm. Sorry. Scratch that last sentence. Even if you’re reading a book on marketing, you’ve got to know why you’re doing this in the first place. Like I know some people that are rich. And are still pushing to get more money. And I just made more money. They’re just doing stupid investments into cryptocurrency for no other reason than they think that they can turn this $2 into $12.
Ray Richards
They’re not questioning why they’re doing that.
Derek Sivers
Yeah, well, yeah, they’re like, “Because I want more money and I can get a big return from this.”
Ray Richards
And my ego is being fed by this idea that people think I can make money. Great. Fantastic.
Derek Sivers
But I think it’s coming from people. They don’t even get to that because my ego will be fed. No, it’s like they’re just not questioning it. They’re just doing it because, well, that’s what you do. I’d never put these two things together before. It’s that the not questioning it thing that I have a problem with. And that’s why I stopped.
Niel Witten
Yeah, exactly.
Derek Sivers
In 2008 with my new company, MuckWork, I sold CD Baby. I started doing MuckWork. Because that’s what you do.
Ray Richards
Yeah, that’s right.
Derek Sivers
I have an idea for a service. I think it’ll help people. And after a few months, I was like, Wait a second, hold on. Why am I doing this?
Ray Richards
Just because you’re good at something?
Derek Sivers
Because it’ll help people.
Ray Richards
Yeah. Just because you’re good at something doesn’t mean that’s what you should do.
Derek Sivers
Right. At that point I was lacking variety in my life. I was not lacking social praise. I was not lacking money. I was not even lacking in altruism. I was doing a lot of things to help a lot of people. Yeah but you maybe felt altruistic. It was profitable, but I was doing it for the musicians.
Ray Richards
You understood why you were doing this service?
Derek Sivers
Yeah. Yeah. So it’s at that point, I realized what I was lacking in my life was a sense of expanding my self identity and variety. So at that point, once I dug down to the core, it made more sense to stop doing MuckWork do something different.
Ray Richards
Yeah. You were in a form of a rut of some description.
Derek Sivers
A positive rut. I mean, it’s funny to me seeing the difference between some popular musicians, let’s say both of these. Actually I’ll use two expired examples, but you’ll both get the reference or anybody listening. We’ll get there. Reference the difference between ACDC and David Bowie. Right so ACDC was good at a certain sound that they came up with in the mid seventies, and they just did that damn thing for like.
Ray Richards
50 years again and again.
Derek Sivers
Fair enough. And but some people love them for that. And apparently the guys in the band have this personality that they were thoroughly happy to just do that one thing for their whole life. They’re like, this is it. The audience loves it. We love it. It pays well. People love it. Just do this. Yeah, but then you have David Bowie. It was like, I’m going to play this character for a year or two now. I’m going to completely change my thing and I’m going to do it completely. I’m going to push myself to do a different style of music I know nothing about and do this thing for a couple of years now I’m going to collaborate with this weird ambient music electronic artist and do this thing. And kept pushing himself to change constantly. It’s just two different personality styles.
Ray Richards
Yeah.
Derek Sivers
But he at the end, he lived it as well, didn’t he, with his last album. It was him. He carried on to the end. He wasn’t doing it for any other reason. Then he just got such a massive kick out of what he was doing. He did it for himself.
Derek Sivers
So I think you need to know this about yourself, that if you are the ACDC type, that’s okay. If you found something you love doing and you just want to keep doing that one thing forever, congratulations. That’s great. You don’t have to feel that that’s wrong, that you should have more variety in your life. You just have to just dig in and ask yourself what drives you?
Ray Richards
I got to ask you a question about how to start a movement, because that’s when I first discovered Derek Sivers. And I have to tell you, I showed it so many times at so many workshops. And how did that come about?
Derek Sivers
I read Seth Godin’s book.
Niel Witten
Um. Purple cow?
Derek Sivers
Tribes.
Derek Sivers
No, tribes. Seth Godin has a book called “Tribes” that I read. And then I read Malcolm Gladwell’s book called “The Tipping Point”. And then just later that year somebody was sharing this little video of a guy at a concert that started dancing, and then lots of people joined him. And the first time I watched it and just laughed and went, “Huh?” And then I thought about it later. I was like, “God, that was actually a visual representation of what Seth was talking about in Tribes and what Malcolm Gladwell is talking about in The Tipping Point.” Like I watched a movement happen. So that’s what The Tipping Point was about. It’s like, how do things get started? How do they tip over into something that catches on to the public interest? And Seth with tribes was like, what makes a leader? What helps people follow? So all I was really doing was taking what I had learned from those two books and pointing out what happened in this video of the dancing guy was like a visual representation of what these two guys have talked about in their books.
Niel Witten
Oh, tribes.
Ray Richards
Yeah, but in a way.
Derek Sivers
Oh, sorry. Along the way. Go ahead.
Ray Richards
You go. Good.
Derek Sivers
I only noticed one thing that I can take credit for. I stumbled across one unique realization on the way is I realized like, wait a second, it was actually that first follower. Because if you search YouTube, there’s that guy had been dancing for a long time. He had been dancing for like an hour just with everybody looking at the stoned guy, the stoned shirtless guy, dancing like crazy. It wasn’t until one guy got up to join him.
Ray Richards
Yeah. Yeah.
Derek Sivers
That’s what made it okay. And so as I looked at it, like a third and fourth and fifth time, I was like, “Oh, that’s really the key, isn’t it? It’s really the first follower that made all the difference. That’s the reason everybody else joined was because that one guy joined and wow, what are the implications of that?” So yeah, I just posted that on my blog. And it got some attention, but not that much. But then the TED conference. They were putting on another conference. So they put out the call for speakers. So I just tossed my hat in the ring and said I could talk about this. And they said, “Yes, talk about that.” So I went on the main stage TED conference in California.
Ray Richards
It was absolutely brilliant.
Derek Sivers
So intimidating.
Ray Richards
I loved it. Yeah, I bet it was. I mean, I loved it so much, though. And if you’re listening to this and you haven’t seen it, just search: Derek Sivers How to Start a Movement. Absolutely.
Derek Sivers
Just actually the better version. Go to Etsy, go to sive.rs/ff as in first follower. That’s like the master version of the talk. The one I gave on stage at TED is not quite as good. I stumbled a bit, but if you want to see me really nervous on stage then yes. Watch this.
Niel Witten
Derek, I’ve learnt loads and it’s been really intriguing learning about the way you think about scratching away and understanding what’s actually driving you, what’s actually making you do stuff. Bringing that to today. You’ve spent a lot of time focusing on being a parent, as I understand it, and you’ve been as thoughtful as we would expect you to be about transitioning into that role. Where is your head around the next reinvention of Derek. How do you think about that today?
Derek Sivers
I don’t know. I honestly don’t know. Right now all that’s driving me is my next book. So my next book is called “Useful Not True”. And I’m just at the beginning stages of writing it right now. And it’s an idea that fascinates me. So that’s work wise. That’s like all I’m interested in is that I’m not thinking in terms of reinvention right now and not even thinking in terms of big picture of what’s next. I’m very head down and focused on this book.
Niel Witten
Can you tell us a bit more about the book?
Derek Sivers
Yeah, sure. If you want a preview, it’s actually the newest blog posts on my website. If you go to sive.rs at least right now at late 2022, to my newest blog, posts are all around this theme of believing things because they’re useful, not because they’re true. And so the argument goes, first you have to break down and point out how little of what we believe is actually true. And so much of it is just social invention, right? So first you have to define true as something that’s a physical fact so that an alien from another galaxy or a ladybug right now would both agree on it. That to me is my qualification for true, meaning remove human interpretation out of it in order for something to be called true. So by this measure, countries aren’t true. There’s not a physical border right there that defines this country. It’s just companies.
Ray Richards
Companies aren’t true.
Derek Sivers
Companies aren’t true at all. We we have these social agreements in order to get along. But once you start popping that bubble, it can be really a huge relief if you’ve stressed yourself out over concepts like obligation or loyalty or even regret. The past isn’t true. The past is a very, very fictional tale. You’ve told yourself the future isn’t true. If you’re scared about the future and you’re really convinced that it’s all going to hell and you’re really freaked out about this, well, you’re acting like the future is true. But that’s just the future is just what we call our imagination. And so it really helps to me, to have somebody point out that none of this is true. And if you’re feeling anxiety, it helps to realize you’re just having a bad dream, it’s not true. You can’t say that it’s like, “Damn it, Brexit is wrecking everything. It’s all going to hell.” No, that’s not true. You’re just scared. You’re imagining you’re having a bad dream. So the book is basically a breakdown to show how many things in our life are not true, but then that we can choose to believe things because they’re useful to us, not because they’re true. I’ve been programming computers for 18 years now, and if I want to learn a new programming language, it really helps for me to think I’m a total idiot.
Derek Sivers
I know nothing. It helps me to be an empty cup and receive the wisdom without feeling like, “Yeah, I got this, I know this.” Like, “No, no, I know nothing. I’m an idiot. Teach me.” But on the other hand, if I was going for a job interview, I would want to believe I’m a master. I got this. I am going to help your company so much. Like that’s the belief that it would take. That would be a useful belief if you’re going on a job interview. So useful belief if you’re learning something new is the opposite of a useful belief a week later, if you’re going on an interview, we choose to adopt these beliefs because they’re useful to us. And if anybody were to point out like, “That’s not true, you’re not an idiot.” Or “That’s not true, you’re not going to help this company.” It’s like, “Well, shut up. I don’t care if it’s true or not. It’s useful for me to believe.” And so I think that applies in so many other ways in life. And that makes it useful for me. Go ahead.
Ray Richards
So all I was going to say was that, I mean, it just popped into my head. It means we can stop believing those stories if they’re not useful. The threshold is much lower, right?
Derek Sivers
Yeah. You have.
Ray Richards
To separate. You don’t have to be attached to them anymore, because actually, I don’t think this is going to be useful to me anymore, so let’s forget it.
Derek Sivers
Yeah, exactly. That’s what my next book is about. It’s a fun, fun, fun, fun subject. And in fact, it’s something I’ve been thinking about and writing about in between the line for years. Like years ago, I posted an article saying men and women are exactly the same and saying, okay, well, even if they’re not, this is a compensating belief because we all tend to exaggerate the differences between men and women. When in fact the differences between men or let’s say the differences among men and the differences among women are much, much, much greater than the differences between men and women. So therefore, as a way to compensate for your bias, it’s better to just assume that men and women are exactly the same. And so when I posted that, somebody said in the comments, but it’s not true. They are different. I’m saying I don’t care the point. That’s the whole point. It’s useful. Yeah, that’s not the point.
Ray Richards
I love that way.
Derek Sivers
I think this has been between the lines of my other writing for years. Yeah, you could even say it about you could go back to any of my books and say anything I’ve written has an element of this useful not true through it.
Ray Richards
Which is also why you’re you’re not an academic in a way.
Derek Sivers
Yeah. Yeah. I have no interest in that.
Niel Witten
I’m really pleased to hear that you’re writing that book. One of the conclusions, if we’ve ever got to a conclusion in the podcasts that we’ve done so far is the importance of narratives, driving behaviours, beliefs. And it’s really interesting because what I think you’re saying is that you can change your beliefs because most of the beliefs are made up anyway and beliefs can exist to serve you. So if you change the belief to something that serves you well, the behaviours will follow. Which feels really powerful. It feels like that’s your lived experience as well.
Derek Sivers
Yeah.
Niel Witten
And what an absolute pleasure, Derek. I’ve thoroughly enjoyed it. It’s been great. I’ve learnt loads. It’s just been fantastic. We normally close up with where do people find you? How do they find out more about you? You’re right in the corner of the internet. They’re owning your piece, aren’t you?
Derek Sivers
Not in a bad way. School of me. No, it’s. I just keep everything on my site. I come from that early days of the internet where we all had our own website, and once Facebook came along, they just had nothing they could offer me because I already hosted all my own photos and I was already connected to all of my friends. So yeah, you won’t find me on social media. I mean, I might have an account there that echoes something that’s on my site. But really everybody what I’m going to say is not just go to sive.rs, go to my website. Yes, but everybody here, going back to the beginning of this conversation, send me an email and introduce yourself, because honestly, that’s one of my favorite parts of my job. And it’s the reason I come on these podcasts -- is because of the people I meet when I do. So I really love hearing from people that are fans of you guys that had never heard of me till now, and they go to my website and they send me an email and say “Hey, I’m a horse shoemaker in Scotland.”
Ray Richards
We have we have loads of people, loads of horse shoe makers from Scotland listening.
Derek Sivers
I know you guys are the biggest tour shoe maker podcast. What are those? What is it called? What’s the name of the job of somebody who makes horseshoes? Blacksmith Farrier is very.
Ray Richards
Farrier, is it? I think so.
Derek Sivers
Nice. Good word. And fletcher is the name of the person that puts the feathers on the back of the arrow. I learned that one this week.
Niel Witten
Oh, that’s my dream, is that we send you a farrier. That’s my dream.
Derek Sivers
And I’ll send you a fletcher in return.
Niel Witten
Yeah. Okay. Fantastic. Thanks so much, Derek. I really do hope we get to meet in person at some point in the future. Obviously, if you find yourself in the UK, then give us a shout. We’ll do the same if we’re in New Zealand. But absolute pleasure.
Derek Sivers
Thanks, guys.
Ray Richards
Thanks Derek. Really appreciate it.