My Kind of People
host: Meg Walker
unconventional life choices, technology and automation, music and nostalgia, community and individuality, advice on facing fears
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Transcript:
Meg
My dear listeners, please grab your notebooks and get ready to have your mind blown, because we’ve got a very special guest in the house today. It is the one and only Derek Sivers. Derek is one of my all time favorite thinkers. Most definitely my kind of person, and I know he will be your kind of person too. Welcome to the podcast. Derek Sivers Welcome.
Derek Sivers
Thank you. I like the idea of like, as you’re saying that I can tell it’s written and I’m imagining going back and saying, “Hmm, how about instead of share your wisdom, we write shoot the shit.”
Meg
We can relate to that in for sure. For sure. But yeah. Welcome. Thank you so much for coming on to the podcast. Derek It’s been a while in the making and I can confirm it’s worth the wait. And also it was probably the most interesting email I’ve ever sent to a guest in terms of invite.
Derek Sivers
Yes. Can I tell the story by reading it?
Meg
Yeah, please do.
Derek Sivers
Okay, so audience, I get many emails that say like, “Hello, my name is Tracy. I am the assistant for such and such famous podcaster who would like you to come on the show. Could you please let me know your availabilities?” And when I get an email like that, I’m kind of like, “Hi, Tracy, Thank you for the email. Sorry, I’m very busy. Take care.” Okay, so then there’s the next level, which is like, “Hi, my name is such and such and I have this podcast. Would you please consider being a guest on my show? Please let me know your availabilities.” And again, if that’s all they say, then I’m like, “You know, I’m busy. Sorry, I just can’t.” Okay, So then I get this email one day and please understand, I get like 100 emails a day, but this one from your lovely Meg was just like, “Hi, Derek. (Enter. Enter.) I don’t drink. (Enter, enter.) I don’t smoke. (Enter. Enter.) I’m not addicted to anything. (Enter. Enter.) Except people. (Enter. Enter.) I love people. (Enter, enter)” And it was like spaced out like this. It exuded so much personality that at first I’m just riveted like, what the fuck? And then at the bottom of this long, amazing, colorful, exuding personality email, it says, “And I have a podcast and I would love for you to come on my podcast.” And I was like, “Oh, fuck, yeah. I don’t even need to look at your stats. I don’t need to look at how many listeners or how many stars with an invitation like that, I’m in.” So that is your host.
Meg
Thank you. That means the world. And I think you literally said back one line.
Derek Sivers
Well, that’s all I needed to say. I was like, “Damn right, I’m in. Count me in.” You’re great.
Meg
Thank you. Know, that really means a lot. And I was saying to you, that was like the first email where I really thought, you know what? I’m messaging Derek Sivers. He’s probably never going to come on the podcast and like, so I’m going to write an email that I really want to write to Derek Sivers. I’ve got nothing to lose and yeah, so thank you for giving me the confidence that I did that because yeah, I was so excited. I was running around the house. The fact that you even replied, let alone to get such a powerful sentence back. So yes, so excited to talk to you today. So thank you very, very much.
Derek Sivers
Equally excited to talk with you.
Meg
Yes. And the reason I was so excited is because you’ve been a huge mentor of mine, obviously indirectly, because you only learned about my existence from that email. But I’ve been looking forward to connecting with you and giving the listeners a little bit of insight into your brain, because I love your brain. I really, really do. It’s somehow you managed to be like assertive yet comforting. Like, your words are like kind of like a warm hug and yet also you are to the point. But take us on such a beautiful journey with your words as well. So I’m so excited to have this conversation today. And if you wouldn’t mind, I would love to share a little bit of insight into how I first crossed paths with you indirectly.
Derek Sivers
Yes, please.
Meg
Because yeah, I think it’s a little sweet backstory. So I’m going to take everyone back to 2015. I was an adventurous 22 year old, just shy of a year out of university, and it was my first ever day as a California summer camp counselor, and I’d been waiting to go on this adventure for almost a year, probably nearly about three years. But that’s a story for another day. So anyway, it’s my first day of camp and I’ve gone through the gates. I’ve got this nice, warm, fuzzy feeling when I entered and the first week was no kids there because we’re just doing a counselor training week.
Meg
And the first time I ever met my camp founder was him walking through the back doors of the dining hall to the circle of life from The Lion King holding his child up. My tears are laughter told me, “Do you know what? I’m going to have fun this summer.” But the thing that really struck me from that first day was something that my camp director, Nick, had said. And what he was saying was that in life, if we’re lucky, we’re going to have a number of what he called click moments, these full body homecoming moments where you find yourself in the present moment and something just clicks and you think, “Exactly where I am now, is where I’m meant to be.” But he said that you can’t force a click moment. So some people have a click as soon as they enter the camp gates. So that’s wonderful for some of you it might take a few days or even maybe the whole summer, and some of you won’t feel that click moment at all. And that’s okay. Y ou can’t force a click moment.
Meg
But you can be open to one. And you could also be the reason it clicks for someone else. And I just that really moved me and it resonated with me in such a strong way. And it still does now. And the thing was, I felt warm going through the gates. I knew I was going to have a fun summer, especially after the circle of life and I was open to a click moment, but I don’t think I felt it yet. So if we fast forward to a few days later, we are in our big training room and the camp directors are doing a presentation on the camp culture. And what basically they want us to help them achieve that summer. And they said, “We can’t really show you though. Sorry we can’t really tell you in words what our culture is, but we want to show you.” So they showed us a three minute clip that changed my life. And it was called “How to Start a Movement” by Derek Sivers. And the click had never been so loud. I watched that clip and I remember looking around the room at my peers and what we were all hoping to achieve that summer, and it felt like coming home. So I just wanted to say thank you for being my click moment.
Derek Sivers
I did not know where that story was going. Thank you. Yeah, I was not expecting that.
Meg
It was going to go all sorts of ways.
Derek Sivers
So I lived in Los Angeles for many years, so I thought you were going to mention, like-- and you met a dear friend of mine or something like that.
Meg
So thank you for being my click moment. And what was so special is kind of full circle as well because you were there at the start of my camp journey and then unfortunately the camp had to be sold in November. And you replied to my email just as that was starting. The sale was starting to come through and they were starting to transition out the old staff and change over. So you were there at the start of my journey. And you were there at the end of my journey too.
Derek Sivers
You kept in touch with them all those years. Seven years.
Meg
So seven years later, it completely changed my life. And yeah, thank you for being part of my click moment. I remember watching that video and being like, “These are my people.” The fact they’re showing me this and it completely resonated with me in what you were saying and what they were hoping to achieve together. It wasn’t just a warm feeling. It wasn’t, I’m going to have fun. It was like coming home. So thank you for being nice. So seven years later and I get to speak to you in person, so still a big fan. And thank you firstly for humoring me and sharing that story. It feels very indulgent to share a story like that when I have your brain for so little time. So thank you. So enough about me. I would love the community to get to know more about you. And speaking of homes, both literal and metaphorical, where have you grown and flown? So where did you grow up and where would you consider home now?
Derek Sivers
Nice rhyme, I like that. Grown and flown. Actually, I think it’s kind of a defining thing about me. Is it no place. Aka every place feels like home. Meaning I was born in California, but when I was five, I moved to Abingdon, England for my dad’s work. So right outside of Oxford, so lived there at the age of five for a year. And to give context, it was tough for me going from a little hippy freedom, playing with animals, California school to a very strict British school with the uniforms and the angry, mean teachers that act like I was the enemy. And so I became at the age of five, like defiantly American. I was like, “I’m not from here. I’m from America, I’m from California. We play with animals there and everything is cool and everything here sucks and I hate it. This is terrible. I’m from California.” And that whole year I lived in Abingdon I was such a proud little American, right? So then after a year and a bit, we moved back to America. We moved to Chicago and I started at my new school and everybody called me the English kid because I had picked up the accent and I was like, “Oh no, Mommy, tell them I’m not from England, I’m from California, oh God.”
Derek Sivers
And so then I’m like, okay, well now I’m clearly not from here. I’m not one of you Hinsdale people. Sorry, Hinsdale is outside of Chicago. That was the town I grew up in, and a lot of the kids there had never left the state of Illinois. And here I was having like, not just lived in England, but traveled around Europe a lot. And so that was alienating. So I lived in Hinsdale, Illinois for ten years, and then I moved to Boston and I’m clearly not from there, but that’s where I went to school for three years, moved to New York City. And even though I love New York City, it’s my comfort zone. Definitely not from there. I feel no sense of like, “I’m from here.” And it’s been that way ever since. Everywhere I live, I feel like, “Well, I’m not from here.” And so the effect that this has on me is, I always feel like society’s norms don’t apply to me. Like, okay, that’s your rules those don’t apply to me because I’m not from here. So I think that’s affected the way I think of everything.
Meg
He makes the rules. We make the rules. No, that’s so interesting. So despite having potentially a lot of homes, more than most people you’ve never actually quite felt at home.
Derek Sivers
Well, that’s why I said kind of like nowhere is home, aka everywhere is home. It’s like my definition of home is just wherever I’m settled right now. Like when I lived in Singapore, even after only a few months. A friend of mine said, “Don’t you miss home?” And I said, “What do you mean I’m home? I live here. I live in Singapore. Now this is home.” Like, “Yeah, you know what I mean? But don’t you really miss home?” I’m like, “No, because this is equally home now. This is it. This is where I am. This is home.” And then I moved to New Zealand and this is home and where I am is home.
Meg
I like that. I like that home within yourself. And where in that journey from California to now New Zealand did you have your own click moments? Have there been any click moments? And particularly with creativity, that seems to be quite a running theme in your work.
Derek Sivers
I’m going to leave the creativity out of it for a second because there’s enough in the first half of that question. Maybe we have different definitions. To me, the click moments are more like this supercharged full battery feeling where you feel like, “Oh, my God. Yes. Everything about this? Yes.” But that can happen in a few different ways, you know. So I’m on stage at the TED conference and like the big California main stage, Ted, where there’s Bill Gates, there’s Al Gore, there’s the the guys that started Google. There’s like all these VIPs, and they’re looking at me like, okay, go tell us something. And I get up on stage and I give that first follower dancing guy talk. And even though I was nervous as hell, I was like, “Fucking right. This is like, this is good. This is congruent with who I am. I like this. I am fully happy with this moment.” And there have been some moments like that romantically. You know, when you’re with somebody and you’re just like everything. Yes. Like, this is so good and there are moments like that travel wise.
Derek Sivers
I was riding borrowed mopeds scooters around Central Vietnam at two in the morning on a Wednesday night. We paid the guys at the hotel $5 to borrow their scooters for the night and just driving. It’s the town of Hue with some squiggle over the E driving around like from like midnight to 3 a.m. on a Wednesday night in Vietnam in July. And it was just like, this is amazing and was just like one of the top few moments of my life. Yeah, career wise, it’s often those moments where it’s like, “I did it. I set out to do something and I’ve achieved it. And I’ve done it.” I mean, you must have had a good handful of these moments just at least looking at your, your stats, your races and world records and such that it’s like to me, that’s my definition of success, not a number in a bank account or not what other people think at all. But it’s like I set out to do something and I did it. Fuck you. That’s such a good feeling. So to me, those are my-- you call them the click moments, but yeah.
Meg
Yeah, but do you feel like that feeling of like, yes, I did it? Do you feel like that is a sense of coming home to yourself? Oh, being kind of true to your work, because my definition of click would be that, like, right here in this moment, this is exactly where I’m meant to be.
Derek Sivers
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I don’t think of that as coming home because maybe I have different associations with the word home. But yeah, that’s where I’m meant to be here. This is fully aligned with who I want to be. Even meant to be as one way of putting it. That almost sounds like there’s somebody with puppet strings, like fate and destiny and stuff. But no, I think about who I’ve set out to be, and this is totally aligned with who I want to be. Yeah.
Meg
I love that. And to be someone that can say I did it, you do have to be a doer.
Derek Sivers
Even internally. To be clear like I did, it doesn’t have to be communicated to the outside world. This has nothing to do with posting something online or how anybody else perceives that you could keep it secret.
Meg
Yeah, yeah. No, and I think that clarification is important to have things that are just for you, but to have that feeling of like I did it. Like even if it’s just for yourself. I did the thing that I said I was going to do. You have to be a doer, right? You have to do the things. And not everyone is prepared to do the things like it has to take a certain level of ambition to do that, I think. And I find ambition is an interesting one and people have different definitions of it. Like, what does ambition mean to you and do you find it isolating at all to be a doer? Because I know I certainly have in the past.
Derek Sivers
What does ambition mean to me? I think it just means thinking big. Yeah. Thinking big. Aiming high. I take it for granted, to me, it’s like, well, duh obviously, you know. What would be your dream scenario? What would be like the dream come true for you? Okay, so you figure that out. Well, there go for that. I want that. So for you and I, that’s obvious, but for a lot of people, like even asking them to make their dream scenario is like, “Hmm, I don’t know, because I’d like to have my bills paid.” You know, it’s like this sad. Aiming so low and the thought of making their dream scenario come true is just like out of the question. They just looked at you like,” No. What? No. Ha ha. Very funny. But no, I’m just trying to get my bills paid, you know?” And it’s hard for me to relate to somebody that has that mindset, especially because then it affects their actions, right? It’s like, well, if all you’re hoping to do is to get your bills paid, well, it’s 5 p.m. and you’ve come home from work, so there’s just nothing you can do until tomorrow morning at 9 a.m. I guess. So I’ll just sit here and watch TV for six hours until I fall asleep. And then I’ll go to work tomorrow to make a little more money, because all I’m really doing here is just paying my bills and I can’t. It’s so hard for me to relate to that kind of life. And I don’t mean that in a bad way. It’s it’s just perplexing to me.
Meg
But what do you think helps you be a doer? Do you think it’s something like innate within you or just like--. So I know for me and this is something I work on a lot with my clients is like my values are like the foundation of everything I do. So for me, as long as I know what my values are and I’m clear with that, it’s easy to be a doer. Because I know that everything I’m doing is moving me closer towards the thing I value. Whereas actually, if I wasn’t in line with my values, I actually would find it very hard to be a doer. What do you feel like it’s like for you? Is it a name?
Derek Sivers
The most important thing is to demystify. It’s to know the next steps. So values. Yes, sure. But if you don’t know the next step. You can’t really take a step. It really helps to demystify to look at something like just pick something like let’s say if I wanted to be a Hollywood movie star. I would need to break that down to say, okay, well, what would that take? And break it into some smaller steps and just see even a bit of the pathway there saying, okay, well, probably the first thing is I should probably be in Hollywood, but let’s say I’m unable to go there for the next three months until I finish something I’m doing here. So for the next three months, here’s what I’m going to do. I’m going to start to contact a lot of people that I know that are in that industry. I’m going to or close to it and ask who they would recommend. I’ll start to meet those people. I’m going to read a couple of books on how the industry works. I would just start to take steps to that and I would maybe analyze. I’d probably get kind of like a stylist or somebody because a lot of that is like being a model. I’d probably take acting classes immediately, but just start right away where I am. Like, just find somebody. Even if I was living in the middle of Uzbekistan, I would find a local acting coach and just begin to take those steps and move towards what seems like an unobtainable goal for other people. I would just break it like demystify it, break it down into steps and just get started on those easy steps.
Meg
Nice. Yeah, I like it. I do something called the Pyramid of Change. So for me, I want to be clear on what my values are to start like just as a starting point. I don’t even have to have action there necessarily. It’s just being clear of those. And then the Pyramid of Change is-- I’ll pick my big goal or dream. It could literally be anything I want as far out as I want, but then I’ll work backwards. So that could be like, what does my ultimate life goal look like? What could that look like, where would I need to be in five years towards that? Where would I need to be in one year towards that? Where would I need to be in 90 days, 30 days, a week? And then eventually you’re at a day. So it’s kind of like the rest actually ends up being forgotten about and kind of redundant, but you work away all the way back to like, what you’re saying? What is the first step? What is the next step? What do I need to do just next? And then looking at it, what do I need to do in like today and doing it like that?
Derek Sivers
I had never thought of this before, but I want to propose an idea in music. You’ve got a guitar behind you. Do you play music?
Meg
I do, yes. I wouldn’t say I’m the best, but I love it.
Derek Sivers
Like I would say, I’m the best. Yes.
Meg
No, I wouldn’t say I’m the best.
Derek Sivers
I know. I know. I know. That was funny. Who would, anyway? So there’s music first and then theory later. So first somebody plays like combines these two chords or just kind of plunks their fingers in a certain way and goes, “Ooh, I like the sound of that.” And then later somebody says, “Well, you know what? You just did? You did a B-flat 13th with a with a flat five.” “Oh, all right. Well, I just like the way it sounds.” So I wonder if the values thing you’re talking about might be a bit like the music theory that comes later, that sometimes we just get an instinctual gut feeling of like, “Oh, this is what I want. Yes, I want that. This is, this is congruent. This is me. I want this 100%. I have no mixed feelings about this. I want this.” And then later you might look at that and go, “Huh, I guess my values might be such or such because I want that.” Yeah. But it can come from that gut. Ooh, I want this feeling first.
Meg
Yeah, No, I love that. And I love the analogy as well. I think that’s so beautifully put. And I definitely think, like, for me, that’s where, connection is important. Like being really aware and connected to yourself and being open to those moments, being like, aware of those all. I feel like some people don’t even have that awareness, right? They’re going through life and they might be either ignoring that, “Oh, I really want that.” Or even not aware of those moments. You know, and not be open to them sometimes. So I think part of the importance is being aware of those moments too, to be able to go with them.
Derek Sivers
I saw in one of your past interviews that you have a question that’s something like, not what is your superpower, but what is your expertise, your specialty or something like that. Is that a common question of yours.
Meg
On elevator expert? Yes, I do have a very bespoke elevator that sometimes experts step into. So yes, they might share their expertise on that. Yeah.
Derek Sivers
You’re absolutely okay. I forget where I heard you ask that question, but it made me go like, “Well, I’m going to be talking with Meg in a couple of months. I wonder what mine is.” And I think that reflecting is where I’ve learned everything, that when you read a book, you’re taking in information. But by my definition, you don’t really learn it until you reflect and internalize it. So I spend more time than most people reflecting in my journal for me. I mean, it could be for anything. It could be just conversations with a friend or laying down and staring at the sky and thinking. But for me, I like having my fingers on the keys and moving and thinking out loud like that. So I spent a lot of time reflecting and internalizing the information I’ve taken in recently or things that have happened to me in processing. I spent a lot of time with that and I ask myself a lot of questions. I’m very skeptical of anything I say, you know, why did you do this? I did this because ABC, it’s not really true. Am I just lying to myself? Actually, that’s probably not the real reason, is it? You know, like I have these kind of dialogues with myself. I mean, not literally, but that kind of doubt of myself and pushing a little further to not even believe my first response to myself. And looking at it from other points of view and like that kind of reflecting and applying everything I’ve taken in I think is my expertise.
Meg
I love that reflection. And on reflection, what do you think is the most important question you’ve ever asked yourself?
Derek Sivers
Oh. There’s not one like that. It’s not one. It’s situational. No, there’s not one. There’s not, like, one single moment that changed my whole life. No, it’s situational. I mean, sorry, the if you needed an answer.
Meg
I don’t know. I would say an answer. No, no.
Derek Sivers
The most useful question. That can be used again and again in every scenario. Is something like, how can I make the best of this? Because things do happen. We get ourselves into certain situations and have certain restrictions and surprises, disappointments. And so I’ve found it extremely useful to again and again and again over whatever 20 years ask, “How can I make the best of this?” And keep pushing with that question and again not just believe the first answer or the second answer, but keep pushing until I’ve got 20 answers or more and then something feels like, ooh, that’s a good idea. Yes. In fact, this thing that I was really upset about an hour ago I’m now really excited about. In fact, now I’m really glad that so-called mistake upset happened. Yeah, because I’ve just found a way to make the best of this. And I’m so glad that just happened.
Meg
I love that. I think my most important question usually starts with why. I think it’s a very simple question, but that for me, I think probably my most important questions have started with why or maybe it’s sometimes literally just why I feel like that brings the best out of me in terms of answering.
Derek Sivers
See that to me--. Do you know the word confabulate? Confabulation? That to me, I worry brings out confabulation where we make up rationalizations. We make up reasons.
Meg
Although I would believe you, if you don’t mind to explain that word for the listeners in case they don’t.
Derek Sivers
Oh, yeah. Sorry. Hello listeners. Confabulate the dictionary says now confabulate means to come up with reasons. So the word root, fabulous. Like to fabricate, fabulous confabulate, to put together reasons. I think that’s the con and the confabulate put together reasons to explain something that you actually don’t have an explanation for. You’re inventing a reason because somebody is asking for a reason. So the best story of this is brain researchers, that there are some people in the world that have had the left and the right hemisphere of their brain split. And with these people, they can do these experiments that they can show a message to only their right eye. They can put goggles on them and show a message to only their right eye saying, “Please close the window and the person will get up and close the window.” And then they can ask their left ear or their left eye, “Why did you close the window?” And the person will say, “Well, it was cold in here.” They say, “Is that the only reason you closed it?” “Yeah, I was feeling a little cold. Sorry. I just felt like getting up to close the window.” That’s pure confabulation, right? They made up a reason to explain their own behavior when in fact, they didn’t know the left half of their brain did not know why they got up to close the window. But if asked, the brain can’t accept the fact that it doesn’t know. So whenever you ask yourself why, you will come up with an answer. But you were likely as not to be just making one up.
Meg
Well, there we go. I might have to find a new question.
Derek Sivers
Don’t mean to shit on your best question.
Meg
No, journaling tonight is now going to be really hard. Thanks, Derek.
Derek Sivers
A whole bunch of hows and what’s. And where’s and when.
Meg
Sorry. I’m going to have to find some new words. Thanks, new challenge for 2023. But despite taking away my favorite question. You have been a big indirect mentor of mine through your work over the seven years. Now that I’ve come across your work. Have there been any mentors in your own life?
Derek Sivers
Yeah. Seth Godin very directly. I know him. We could maybe say we’re friends. We’ve hung out a few times. We’ve talked on the phone a few times, but I don’t reach out to him as often as I think to, I very often think to myself, “What would Seth Godin say if I were to call him now and ask him? What would he say?” Because I know his thought process a bit. So then I’ll instead just answer for myself what Seth Godin would say. There’s another guy named Jared Rose that was like a coach, like literally, I hired him as a coach for a few years and often then later I would think about reaching out to him and I think, “Well, I know him pretty well. What would Jared say?” And again, I’ll just do that process and kind of come to my own answer based on what I think Jared would probably say. Little bit, Tony Robbins. There was like a huge Tony Robbins book called “Awaken The Giant Within” was like the Bible to me. I read it at a really formative age and read it many times and really internalized it so much that I think its philosophy is like my religion in a way, without me realizing it. You know, like somebody that was just grew up in Sicily and was just raised Catholic and just wouldn’t even question it or not even realize how Catholic their beliefs are. My belief system is very Tony Robbins without me even realizing it anymore. Yeah, I think that’s mostly it. There’s one. Okay, I’ll name drop one more. Erika LeMay. You Meg should read her book called Almost Perfect. You would really like it. I think she’s got a similar approach to life as you do. She is a aerial artist that has a very, very, very driven and disciplined but yet balanced--. So yeah, she’s got an amazing approach to life that I really admire and I often think of what would Erika do?
Meg
You know, you’re a good mentor. I’ve thought many a time, what will Derek do? And did you say Almost Perfect.
Derek Sivers
Yeah, I think that’s the name of her book. Yeah.
Meg
I will find it. And I will also put it in the show notes for others to find. And as an author yourself, and also by the sounds of it, a fellow bookworm. I personally find, so many books have been mentors to me. Do you have some books you mentioned Awaken the Giant and Almost Perfect, but are there any other books that you’ve found that have been really pivotal to your thinking and got you thinking in a different way?
Derek Sivers
I just think of them all as tools in a toolbox, right? Except for that one, Awaken The Giant Within which because I read it, it was like the first book that I had ever read. Right? And I was 19 years old. But every book since then, I should say, has felt like another tool in the toolbox, right? So I can read Atomic Habits and I can say instead of feeling like this is my new Bible, let’s just say I don’t turn ideas into ideologies. Even if the author is trying to pitch an ideology saying you should follow this ideology, this religion that I am prescribing to you, dear reader, I kind of have this skeptical kind of, “Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. This is just this is another tool. I don’t need to buy in completely to your system.” So no, since then, I don’t have any one single book that made a huge change in my life like that. But instead, the books collectively absolutely have made a massive change in my life. I’d say the biggest change in my life, besides my time spent reflecting has come from the books themselves. I probably read about, I don’t know, 40 or so good nonfiction books per year, and I’d say more than half of them are really damn good and stay in my thinking process.
Derek Sivers
So as I’m just making daily choices in life. I’m constantly referring to the books that I’ve read, and I keep detailed notes on all the books I’ve read. So it’s easy for me now to in ten minutes reread my notes from a book that I actually read ten years ago. I don’t have to pick up the whole 350 page book and read it from scratch again while reading it the first time I jotted down my favorite ideas from it so that now I can just go back and read that text file with the ideas in it. And listeners, if you haven’t seen it already, you should go to my website at sive.rs/book. And I decided years ago to start posting all of my book notes. So now there’s almost 400 book notes there from the books I’ve read since 2007. I post my detailed notes on the site so that you can not use them as a replacement for the book, but use them to judge whether you should read this book.
Meg
I’ve been there myself, and as a fellow bookworm, it is book note heaven, and I personally love it. I love hearing other people’s thoughts on books and the fact that you might have different takeaways from mine and read the same thing as me, but seeing it completely differently, or that we’ve both read the same thing and I’m like, “Oh yeah, we have the same thoughts on that.” So I love that and also that you’ve shared those as well. I think it’s a real gift to other people to take that, see a different opinion and then make their own as well. Thanks. You’re very welcome. And you you touched on it before, But I would definitely say that one of the things I also love about you is that you’re really not someone to be stuck to conventions. And I probably like the unconventional too much. I’m very much someone that if everyone’s doing it just because everyone’s doing it, I very quickly lose interest in doing it myself personally. What would you say is probably the most unconventional decision of your career and how did that turn out for you?
Derek Sivers
I do have an answer to that question, but it’s more important to say that I don’t really think in terms of most unconventional because I’m really just disregarding the norms. And just thinking of everything for myself from scratch. Like if somebody says, “Well, what everybody does is they use JavaScript, they use Reactjs to put a chunk of JavaScript in JSON, which is then interpreted by a template in the browser, and that’s what everybody does.” So like really everybody, that’s how we make websites, that’s how we do it. But I’ll look at that and say, “But that doesn’t make sense for me. That’s not how I want to do it. The way that I’d rather do it is to just have the Ruby script on my server, generate the HTML and just dish it up with no JavaScript.” And it’s not that I’m trying to be unconventional, it’s that I just see those as two different things. What’s good for them versus what’s good for me. So whatever the rest of the world does, I say, “Okay, well, I’m glad that’s working for you. But I need to figure out what works for me.” And it’s not a reaction to what’s working for you. It really is just needing to think of it myself from scratch. And maybe the thing you’re describing works for me too.
Derek Sivers
If a wirecutter says that they’ve reviewed 50 sets of Bluetooth headphones. And this one is the best, I think, “All right, I’ll just buy that one then. I don’t need to reinvent that from scratch. I don’t need to try 100.” But when it comes to life, things and how people live their life. Yeah, I don’t react against them. But I just assume that my needs are different than other people’s needs and just think of it for myself. So now to answer your question, the ones that I’d say people would say are the biggest was when I sold my company for $22 million, and when thinking of it myself from scratch, to realize I didn’t want the money. And so I put it all into a charitable trust before I even sold the company. I donated my company into a charitable trust first before selling it so that when the purchasing company bought it, they bought it not from me, but from the trust. So that $22 million never touched my hands. And that just came from real soul searching of like, asking what I want out of my life and what mattered to me, my values and who I want to be and how I want to live. And having $20 million was not something I wanted. I felt better not having it, so I wouldn’t accidentally do something stupid with it. That made me happier than having it was, you know, preventing my future self from doing something stupid.
Derek Sivers
So I put it into this charitable trust thing. Okay, so that’s one example. But let’s say, like how I’ve raised my kid around the world. Every parent says kids need stability and they use that as some kind of excuse to just, shut down their life and make their life so small and just stay at home and watch TV because kids need stability. But that’s not true. That kid’s stability comes from the emotional connection. You could get on a plane every day for the rest of your life and have stability. If you have the emotional connection and if you can feel safe and stable anywhere on earth. I’d argue that that’s more stability than sticking in one little place in Cleveland, Ohio, and not leaving because kids need stability. You know, so I’ve raised my kid around the world so far. He just turned 11. I think that’s been a little unconventional. I don’t know. It’s interviews like this sometimes when people tell me what’s unconventional about me. And sometimes I don’t even realize it. Like I’m just being me. And then somebody says, “Oh, you know the way you are. That’s really weird.” I say, “Really? How so? “And they say, “Like this.” I go, “Oh, that’s interesting. Thank you. I didn’t know that.” You’re nodding. You can relate.
Meg
No, I can’t. And that’s why I really wanted to ask you that question because I find it so interesting because I feel like even like the word like unconventional, it’s more and you broke it down so beautifully is like other people’s opinions. So like, when I’d said, what is the most unconventional thing you have done? I love the fact that you broke down to like, what other people might have thought is unconventional, because I think very few people, at least I certainly don’t walk around going like, “I’m going to do something unconventional.” Like, no, it’s usually other people’s opinion of what you’re doing that they think is like against the norm. Whereas for you, it’s just, “I’m just being me. I’m just doing my thing.” Like you’d mentioned you’d been on my website and saw things and was like, “Wow, you’ve done some pretty far out there things.” For me, I’m just being me, going about my life, doing the things that make sense to me. So yeah, thank you for taking the time and the care to really go into that question. I really appreciate your answer.
Derek Sivers
It’s funny that it’s really a reaction of the observer, noticing how different your choices are from theirs. So in America, it’s very normal to leave home at the age of 18, go away to college, and then from college you go away to another city and never go back to your little hometown except to visit and then I moved to Singapore. And a good friend of mine was like a self-help blogger. I want to say she is not somebody you would have thought of as provincial. She seemed to be very like online, very connected to the world. But yet when she was asking about my life, she said, “You left home at 17. You moved away when you were 17. You never moved back.” She’s like, “God, aren’t your parents upset? Aren’t they mad? I mean, aren’t they insulted? Wasn’t that, like the ultimate slap in the face to them?” Like, wait, what? What are you saying? She’s like, “But you left home. That’s so insulting.” I said, “Wait, no, that to me, that’s normal. Everybody does that.” I said, “Really? That’s that’s insulting to you?” She said, “Yeah, here in Singapore, we all tend to live with our parents until our 30s, and to leave home at 17 would be the hugest insult.
Derek Sivers
That would be like saying that I hate you.” Weird. So her thinking that this was unconventional about me doesn’t necessarily mean that what I was doing was unconventional. It’s just unconventional to her values and her culture. I think maybe in Silicon Valley the idea of giving away a ton of money to charity is not that weird. And then when I was asked to speak in India to a group of business investors, they said, “Don’t talk about that. We don’t do that here. It will just be insulting. Indians do not give away their money to charity. They save it for their family. So don’t rub that in people’s faces. Please don’t mention that.” I went, “Wow.” So that idea is very beyond unconventional and just straight up stupid or something like that. So, anyway, it’s all just a reflection of the observer. You’re just being you. And if people tell you you’re unconventional, it’s because you just differ from their values.
Meg
Exactly. Thank you. And I completely agree. And so thank you for taking the time and care to answer that question in such depth because I think--. Can you have an unconventional opinion of yourself? I don’t think you can. I think unconventional can only be someone else’s observation or view of you. For example, when I said, I think to other people, it’s that appearance of I kind of go towards the unconventional, but for me, it’s just what’s right for me. And so in my brain, if I’m doing something and then everyone wants to do it because everyone’s doing it in my head like I won’t not do it just for the sake of it, for example, to be unconventional. But for me and how my brain works, it just sparks that creativity then of like, “Well, if we’re all doing it this way, then what other ways are there out there doing it? If we’re all doing the same?” Right.
Derek Sivers
You know, Meg, there’s a quote you might like that said something like, “If everybody’s thinking the same thing, then nobody is thinking.”
Meg
Love that. Love that. Exactly. And that’s like my response to it. So like you said, other people think then, “Oh, well, she’s quite unconventional.” And it’s like, well, no, I’m just like you said, just being me and doing what’s right for my brain and unconventional.
Derek Sivers
I think sometimes when us weirdos who share the same unconventional values, when we spot each other, it’s like two dogs, you know, across the street, you know, dogs walking. Oh, and suddenly, “Oh, my God. Oh, my God. There’s another one like me.” So, yeah. You know, when I mentioned Erika LeMay earlier with the book “Almost Perfect”. So Erika actually reached out to me a few years ago and we got to be good friends. And there was that same sense of recognition like, “Oh, my God, you’re like me. Cool. Nice to meet a fellow weirdo.”
Meg
That one of us.
Derek Sivers
Do you actually know the reference of that? One of us. One of us?
Meg
No, I don’t know. Where was that originally from? The funny thing is, I always say that with when I’m out with my dog, if he sees another cockapoo and gets excited, I go, one of us.
Derek Sivers
You should find the original. It is a movie from the 1920s called Freaks. And I think you can find it. I think it’s out of copyright control. You can find it on like archive.org or similar sites. It’s a fascinating movie because they actually went and found the circus. It was a movie made of like circus freaks, which are just people with physical deformities. You know, the guy born without legs and arms and people that had various disorders and diseases that made them look like freaks. And the people that would put on the shows, they actually went to one of these circuses and got a bunch of the performers or I should say performers, just the freaks and made a movie with them about a normal woman that comes in to join the circus. And the one of us moment is when even though she’s like Marilyn Monroe, blonde, you know, cliche, beautiful, at some point they realize that, like, you’re weird, like us. And so this table full of people of like, the super tall, the super short, the guy without legs or arms and the bearded lady and all that are like around the table going, “One of us. One of us. One of us.” Like you’re one of us. Yeah. That’s the origin of that phrase. You should see the original movie. I saw it once years ago, and I never forgot it.
Meg
Oh, I’m definitely going to have to watch it. And it literally that kind of sounds like it sums up exactly what we’re saying of that unconventional. Because they’re not freaks. That’s other people’s opinion to that. And like the idea that she’s normal, that’s our opinions of each other. Whereas everyone’s just being me, navigating life.
Derek Sivers
Yeah. Do you know Jodi Cook?
Meg
The name rings a bell.
Derek Sivers
You should have her on the show. Powerlifter and former publicist, entrepreneur. And she’s from Birmingham originally and traveling the world with her husband right now and was just here in Wellington for a couple of months. And we went to go see Mark Manson’s new movie, The Subtle Art of Not Giving a fuck. They made a movie out of it.
Meg
I’m so excited for this to come out.
Derek Sivers
Well, we liked it. But her comment upon leaving the cinema was she said, “I think that’s a movie for normal people, like you and I are already kind of living this thing that Mark’s talking about and normal people still need to hear that.” She said. “I think you and I have already internalized that.” Yeah.
Meg
Lived it. Yeah
Derek Sivers
Normal people. So like you just said. I was rehearsing where you said the freaks and the normal and whatever. So to me it’s like as a freak at the table. To me, calling somebody a normal person is--.
Meg
Someoned that doesn’t think like me.
Derek Sivers
Right.
Meg
But to a normal person a freak would be an insult.
Derek Sivers
Right, Right. So I find being called weird I take as a compliment, being called a freak, a compliment. Me calling somebody normal is a bit of an insult. Let’s just say almost an insult.
Meg
Yeah, I guess it depends where you’re sat at your view from the table, I guess. But no, I love that. Another thinker that I love is, Kevin Kelly. So and he does his lessons for his birthday. And I just recently had my 30th birthday and I wanted to do my own take of it and did 30.
Derek Sivers
Yeah. I listened to it.
Meg
Oh, wow. Thank you. But one of those was, you know, if they’re calling you a little bit weird, if that’s the worst thing they’ve got on you, then you’re definitely doing something right. So, yeah, I definitely think I would be a freak at the table quite happily. So thank you being right there with me. Two dogs at different ends of the street.
Derek Sivers
Yeah.
Meg
One of us, for sure. And for someone who has, like, a kind of a bit of a background in technology. Let’s say your website is very impressive. I don’t know how you create your website, but I know it’s impressive how you’re able to make it so simple. But there’s a lot of brain work behind that potentially. So something I’m interested to talk to you about is technology, because I think something that potentially could be seen as unconventional at the moment that I think is going to become very conventional is AI. And so I’m interested. There’s a fear that it could come in and take away a lot of humans kind of work and also kind of make human work redundant, I guess, and interactions redundant. And as a creative human, what are your thoughts on the role of technology in kind of entrepreneurship and business today?
Derek Sivers
I think we’ve always automated away the things that are done just as well by automation. Kevin Kelly actually has a wonderful book called “What Technology Wants”, where he makes a great argument that there are some things that are actually improved by being automated. So say, for example, the reason that all cars these days are so reliable is that they were made by computers and like laser precise machines. They weren’t made by Giuseppe, who’s been making cars for 60 years in Sicily, handmade the old fashioned way. I’d rather have a car made with laser precision machines instead of Giuseppe, who I would want to make maybe my shoes or suit or something like that. That’s more artistic. I would want a human to make art. I would want art made by a human, but cars made by a machine. And so it’s up to each of us to think what aspects of what we’re doing would actually be better done by a machine and what aspects would be better done by a human. So yeah, there are some people ask how I answer emails so fast. Anybody listening, I have a notoriously open inbox, so right on my website is my email address and I welcome strangers to email me and I really like it. Like you heard at the beginning of this recording, how much I loved getting Meg’s first email. It’s like I get 100 emails a day, but damn, that one was memorable.
Derek Sivers
That was great. And occasionally I get ones like that. I get really impressive, interesting people, interesting to me, impressive to me. And I love meeting them. And so I really love that they reached out and just took the time to say like, “Hi, my name is I’m a poet in Slovenia. Listening to your podcast right now.” And how cool I know a poet in Slovenia now. Bad ass. I love that. But people ask, “How do I do that?” It’s like, well, because I’ve automated my most frequently used sentences, I’ve just noticed over the years that there are like at any given time, there are about 50 or so sentences that I use often, whether it’s as short as thank you very much or as long as, “Well, since you asked. Here’s my answer to this common question.” Da da da da da. A couple paragraphs. So what I’ve done is I’ve just assigned hotkeys to my most common sentences. So now this is like kind of a human automation hybrid where it is me choosing it. Yeah, you’re not getting an automated form letter. I’m reading your email, but I’m able to reply in like five seconds because I’m reading it and just like ju ju ju ju. I hit like my four sentences that apply to this situation. It took me four keystrokes to hit them and I had a few more words that do not fit into any form letter and I hit send and I’m able to just do this and go through emails in like ten seconds each.
Derek Sivers
And for me that works. So that’s like a hybrid of me deciding but automated some of this stuff away. But I wouldn’t want to, for example, have an AI answer the emails for me because that would defeat the purpose. I want to see the emails. I want to make my personal human decision in the moment on how to respond to that email, even if in the future it might just be a single keystroke handles the whole email, but I still want to look at it to know. So same thing with writing. A lot of people talk about using GPT for generating content, as they say, which even just saying once they say generating content, you know they’re really talking about garbage, generating garbage. So how can I generate more garbage? You know, surprisingly, that’s not a question I ask myself a lot. How can I generate more garbage? But some people do. They think, “I need clicks, I need Google AdSense, whatever views. I need followers. I need to generate some more garbage. Look, here’s something that can generate some garbage for me. Look, I can just click some buttons and it starts spewing out some garbage. This will get me some more clicks.” So, no, that’s not an interest of mine. Instead, it feels like it raises the value of surprising ideas. That a bullshit generator would not come up with.
Meg
Yeah, I love that insight. And I was talking to a friend about it the other day. My view on it is actually like, I think it can be a positive thing. Like, I don’t think we can avoid it. It’s coming. Which makes it sound like some sort of tidal wave, but I think it’s learning to work with it. And actually when you think of it like that, it can help you bring out the best in you because it helps you realize like, what are the things a robot couldn’t replace. Just like you’ve literally created your own hotkey of your unique answers and sayings, the things that are uniquely you. So yes, you might for ease of time, you’re using it to help you generate those responses. But actually those key words and phrases are uniquely you, and it’s actually taking you time to think about, “What are the things that are very me that I say the most.” But the one thing that I do have fear about this coming in and I think it’s because I’m already seeing kind of the sad side of it. Is kind of technology’s increasing involvement in music. Now, this is kind of, I guess like, it’s a difficult one because music has advanced so much because of technology. But I’m a huge music fan and I’ve got so much nostalgia for being younger, and I would save up my money to buy my favorite cassette or CD. My first CD was a well cassette was the Spice Girls
Meg
But the excitement of saving up this money over time, I had to physically go to a store to buy it. Then having that anticipation excitement to go all the way home and then listen to it. And then I would get to listen to the whole album in its entirety and you’d really hear the story and the journey that the musician is trying to like take you on. And I just worry that with technology now, I feel like it’s taken some of the journey away from the music because everything is so instantly accessible. Like if you even think about it, there’s no care, unless you’ve got a real special loved one. There’s no like carefully curated mixtapes anymore, but there’s tons of generic playlists to try and get at what’s the most popular songs that people are going to listen to. And, you know, we have the shuffle button, what’s going to come on randomly. Also I feel like singles are favoured much more than albums. So like for you having created something like CD Baby, what I especially loved of it and the success I saw from it was because it took the customer on such a personal journey, like the journey of it was so special. How do you feel about like the current state of music consumption? What are your thoughts basically on how technology is kind of affected that area?
Derek Sivers
I’m going to actually connect it to the thing that we talked about 20 or 30 minutes ago, about norms. That it doesn’t matter that most people now consume Spotify on a random shuffle. It doesn’t matter that more and more artists are just putting out individual songs and not making albums really anymore. They might collect 12 of those songs, but it’s not really an album as you’re describing. It doesn’t matter that most people do this and more people do that. What matters is that you don’t have to. You know your preference, so you can still go buy a Stevie Wonder album from 1973 that is very much an album. You can still get a Miles Davis album that is very much an album, and you can still find that 1 in 100 musicians today. They also really care about the album as an album and a journey to take you on. They still exist, so it doesn’t really matter that most don’t do that and that most of your 30 year old peers don’t care about this just doesn’t matter. Like, we don’t need to bemoan it. In fact, you could look at the way that the music industry was in the 1950s. There basically weren’t albums in the 1950s. Like this whole idea of an album was a thing that became a thing in the 1960s through maybe 90s and then faded away again. But if you love that thing that had its heyday for 30 years, you’ve got tons to choose from. And there are a lot of musicians still who agree with you and know the deeper happiness of an album and are still making them. So yeah, it doesn’t matter that most don’t. That’s my take on it. We don’t need to moan about what the rest of the people are doing or that most people aren’t. There’s still plenty for us to choose from.
Meg
Very true. And it’s a beautiful message. And trust me, I still live in the 90s. Most of the time. In fact, I was a 90s radio presenter for a good amount of time. I was called the Queen of Cheese. That wasn’t a self-appointed title. I got that for a while, purely because I wanted to live in the 90s and have my happy place for a little bit more. And I found my other people that wanted to be in the 90s for an hour or two a day every Tuesday.
Derek Sivers
But see what’s funny? That wouldn’t surprise me if you were born in like 1979, but you were born in 92 or 91, 93. Oh, you just turned 30. Okay. Yes. So that’s kind of funny to me that like, you were crawling, you were a toddler in the 90s, and yet that’s your nostalgia. Most people have a nostalgia for the time when they were a teenager, right? So if you were born in 79, then you were a teenager in the 90s and like that would be your deep nostalgia. Why do you think it is the music of that time reaches you the most?
Meg
I think well, for me, I definitely know that I have such lovely memories of being in my dad’s car driving, like he would drive us around to school or whether a nursery and he would have bands on like Oasis Blur. Yeah, like all these bands and just hearing them over again. Like my mum is convinced Parklife may well have been one of my first words. But I think that was a real nostalgic time of that bond with my dad and having the music on in the car. And I think that’s the first time I really have like a real vivid memory of like music and really starting to appreciate it. And there were other albums as well. We had The Prodigy, we had some Abba Gold. But yeah, really listen, and because we’ve been on a journey, we’d hear the whole album together. So yeah, I think at that time I just remember being young and that was my first real like exposure to music. And also I think seeing the joy that my dad had for these albums and that really transferred across. So when I went to go buy my own album, being like the Spice Girls, having that own excitement for myself, like, “Oh, I’m going to have my own CD, my own album that I can take care of and love.” So I think that’s why particularly the 90s was nostalgic for me. And I think, yeah, just a lot of family time at that time. I’ve got three brothers spending that time with them and hearing my older brother’s music as well. I think.
Derek Sivers
Okay, that adds a little more to it. Interesting. Wow. And it’s funny, I’ve raised my kid listening to a lot of esoteric music, like when we would play with Lego for hours and hours and hours, our usual default music to put on in the background was Indian classical music. And I wonder if, you know, my kid when he’s 30 is just going to have this, like, deep nostalgia for Indian classical music because that’s what me and my dad used to just listen to for hours while making Lego.
Meg
It’s very specific. So I feel like you would be the one to point out there. I’m not sure where else he would have found that from. But I know if that is the case, he’ll have very fond memories of his dad. And I feel like kind of going back to what we said earlier, for me, I feel like you can have click moments from a song as well. So like I hear those songs and it’s that click moment of kind of like one to take actually, is I remember hearing just like, well they’re more 80s but heard them in the 90s, Just like Heaven by the Cure. I remember listening to that song and being like, bear in mind, I was very young at the time, so I wouldn’t know, but just knowing in myself of like, that’s what love feels like in a song to me.
Derek Sivers
Wow. Huh? So I wouldn’t.
Meg
So I wouldn’t have been old enough to even really experience what love actually is like. But I remember listening to that song and being like, “Huh, that feels like love in a song.”
Derek Sivers
Wow. Do you want to hear two songs that practically make me cry every time was--. It’s surprising, find the song Birthday by Sugarcubes, which is actually Bjork’s first band from Iceland. The lyrics are nonsense. I don’t care what the lyrics are saying, but the chorus is her just wailing and it’s this melody. It’s hard for me to even imitate. It’s like, Oh, oh. Ooh, it’s just Bjork added a wailing full throated as the chorus.
Derek Sivers
And there’s just something about it that just hits me viscerally and like, brings a tear to my eye Yeah. So find that one Birthday by Sugarcubes and another one is so cliché. I didn’t hear it until long after my teenage years. I was probably even after 30. But “Killing in the name of” by Rage Against the Machine. When I heard that song, I actually got a little like teary eyed because that refrain of like, “Fuck you, I won’t do what you tell me. Fuck you, I won’t do what you tell me.” It brought up my inner 14 year old or it’s like that part of me that’s still in there, that little 14 year old that was so angry and felt so oppressed. And I was so upset. I was so angry from age like 14 to 16. And that song speaks right to that part of myself that’s still in there. So whenever I hear Killing in the name of and especially, you know, that ending, I just like get a little, little watery eyed like, yeah, it’s still in there.
Meg
Oh, I love that. See, I’ve got fond memories of that song, but more so because I have--,. So two of my brothers are older and my oldest brother would he’d asked for an album for Christmas. It would have a lot of swear words and be explicit. So my parents would say no. So he would then of course, go to my Nan and just write it down on the Christmas list. So poor, poor, poor Nan would just take the paper and go into the local. It was HMV here in the UK at the time and be like, “I would like shake your ass please, and killing in the name of.” And then he would of course be absolutely ecstatic with himself at Christmas when he’d unwrap it and then start playing it. And my Nan would be absolutely mortified of the lyrics that would be playing and she’d have a lot to answer for with my parents. But yeah, I feel like that’s so gay.
Derek Sivers
If somebody’s got such a strong urge, I think it’s better to just like let it come out, you know, let it be expressed because if you oppress that expression, it’s just going to come out way more later because of the years of being held back. Like the arrow being pulled farther and farther back. You know, it’s better to just let it be expressed early. I generally kind of let my kid do whatever he wants and I just stay nearby to make sure he doesn’t hurt himself.
Meg
I think that’s very good parenting. But yeah, I love the nostalgia that comes from music. And that for me is also that a feeling of like coming home. I love the memories that you can kind of like that click moment, I guess, of like this exact moment right now is where I’m meant to be. I guess with songs, it just takes me back to moments where I felt like that. It’s kind of like a portkey, I guess, to take me back there. Little time machine.
Derek Sivers
It’s funny you use the word home to mean a few things. It feels like you have a strong sense of home.
Meg
Yeah. And which is I didn’t even really think about that. So thank you. That’s an interesting observation because I think for a long time and I’ve even talked about it on this podcast of I think I really struggled to understand, feel a sense of home. But I think home to me now is just feeling more and more like myself and allowing myself to be and think, like music is just that. I don’t know. It just takes away barriers. That nostalgia takes you back to that moment you were in. And it’s just--. I don’t know. It cuts the crap away. I guess there’s no barriers or trying to think of anyone else. It just full body takes me back to those moments where I’m fully in myself in that moment. And I think that’s what home to me has become. Just being myself. And I feel like music has been a ticket to that. And I feel like nostalgia is because that takes you back to a moment where you were you, I guess
Derek Sivers
Cool. At home to me means no obstacles. When I was writing in my journal about what home means to me and thinking a lot about that because I was thinking of buying a home or thinking of making a home or thinking of what kind of home I wanted. Just a whole bunch of thoughts around home, which I was meaning, very literally, not metaphorically. I was meaning like the place I live. I thought like home to me is the place with no obstacles. So I could be in a strange land I’ve never been before. But if I have a little space that is really easy and comfortable for me, that has no obstacles and by obstacles, I don’t mean just physical obstacles. It could even be like sound like a noisy environment is an obstacle to my concentration. Bad temperature control, a place that’s too hot and I can’t cool it down or too cold and I can’t heat it up. That’s an obstacle to my comfort. Then I can’t think straight because I’m shivering or I’m sweating all over my keyboard. That’s an obstacle. So to me, a place feels most like home when it has no obstacles.
Meg
I’ve never ever heard anyone describe it like that before and I love it. It’s very uniquely you. Yeah, I’m going to be thinking about that one. A home to you is a place or a feeling that there is no obstacles.
Derek Sivers
Yeah.
Meg
I love it. I love it. I love it. I love it. So on this podcast, a huge theme is positive change. And I believe change always starts as us, as individuals. I think kind of indirectly we’ve been talking a lot about autonomy really across the podcast. What is your advice for someone who wants to cultivate a positive and more kind of fulfilling mindset? Because that’s something I think I took for granted. That’s like thinking that everyone thinks like me and might find that as their natural default. But not everybody does.
Derek Sivers
You might need proof that it’s possible to make change happen. I worry about people that are helpless because they’ve never made a change happen. We’ll use a really simple example. If somebody wants to lose weight, but their whole life, their weight has only ever gone up and up and up and up and up and up. It has never gone down. That person would feel pretty hopeless. Or find it quite hard to have a positive mindset that they could lose weight because they had no evidence of ever doing it. So same with, say, pursuing something you really want and getting it. Same with like being loved. Like really being loved. If you had never felt that before, you might feel that was impossible. But if you had felt it before, you would know that it was possible if you had lost even 2 pounds ever. Through your own will, then you’d know that it was possible and you could do it again. And you could do it more if you had ever pursued something that seemed out of reach and achieved it, you would know that it was possible. So I think we need a little evidence to ourselves to know that it’s possible to be in the right mindset, to know that we can do it more.
Meg
Yeah. So do you think it’s almost like you need a personal deposit? You know, kind of like when you go to like buy a house or something, right? Like I need a deposit first. I need something there to show me, like, this is worth my time. I can trust that I’m going to get something back from this.
Derek Sivers
Yeah. Like that.
Meg
There you go. So, personal deposit. And another theme of this podcast, and I’m interested to know, really interested to know your thoughts on this because especially for someone who’s traveled so widely and is community. And what does community mean to you, and has your personal definition of community changed as you’ve grown through life?
Derek Sivers
So I don’t have a good answer for this one. I don’t really think in terms of community, I don’t seek it. I don’t relish it. I haven’t thought about that word very much. To me it often seems like a bunch of people with an agenda that will want to have homeowners association meetings or something like that. I don’t mean like homeowners association, but you know, like community often turns into people who thrive on being rule makers and organizers and saying, “Oh, we’ve got a community now, all right, I’m going to organize this community. Hello, community. Let’s all do such and such.” I think I’d rather not be a part of any community. All these rules and whatnot. I just want to do my thing. It’s like again, it’s like the difference between ideas and ideology. There’s people and then there’s community and community seems to almost click into this ideology. It’s like, “Hey, we have a community now. Let’s follow the rules of the community. Yeah, here’s the terms of engagement for our community because we’ve got a community here.” And it sounds like an ideology. I think I’m going to step out of that. Yeah. Said I had no opinions about it. I guess I do have opinions about that.
Meg
I have to say too, your answer is a good answer because it’s personal to you. So if you know, like a community is kind of what you don’t want, like what would you want? What does feel right?
Derek Sivers
Individuals, individuals that I adore, my friends are spread around the world. But even if they were all in one place. Then I would still just think of them as individuals that I adore, and maybe some of us would get together at the same time, in the same place and adore even more being together. But it would have to be, for me, a very loose collection. I wouldn’t even probably use the word community to describe that. It would just be a bunch of people I like that are together.
Meg
Beautiful. Oh, Derek, my heart is full. So thank you so much for bringing your time, wisdom and energy to the conversation today. I’ve genuinely loved connecting with you as individuals, not as part of a community. Thank you for bringing your real self and not your AI version of you. I promise. All the questions have been my own. Not by Meg 2.0 or a Megatron or anything like that. I know the listeners will take a lot from this episode and I would love for the listeners to be able to follow and support your work further. So how could they do this if they wanted to learn a little bit more about you? How could they look out for you?
Derek Sivers
You know, what they should do is they should send me an email like you did. They should send me a weird Meg introduction email. Yeah. So anybody listening to this go be your weird self and go to my website and email me. Say hello, introduce yourself.
Meg
Write the email that you would love to write to Derek Sivers. That would be my only advice there. And lastly, before we say goodbye for now, please, could you be kind enough to leave us with a piece of advice that you have received that has stuck with you? I’m sure you’ve had many, but what is one piece of advice that you would like to leave us with?
Derek Sivers
Haha. Whatever scares you, go do it. Because then you won’t be scared anymore.
Meg
That is very, very true. Derek, thank you so much. I genuinely have enjoyed and adored the conversation. Thank you for your warmth. Thank you for your authenticity. Your entrepreneurial spirit. And to encourage us to break out of conventions and live life with a hell yeah. I guess if anything of your email response is to go by and thank you for being my kind of person.
Derek Sivers
Thanks, Meg.
Meg
You’re very welcome. There we go. Thank you so much.