Zen Habits
host: Leo Babauta
resistance in meaningful work, multitasking, fear as energy, useful not true beliefs, exploration of personal growth
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Transcript:
Leo
Welcome, Derek thank you for being on the podcast. I’m so excited and honored to have you. But I just wanted to say thank you for coming.
Derek Sivers
Thanks, Leo. And hey, audience, in case he didn’t say it in the intro, Leo and I have been communicating and aware of each other for 15 years, but this is basically our first time actually speaking live for real. So I think we’re both excited to finally talk. Yeah.
Leo
You’re someone whose work I’ve resonated with for so long. I even started my now page based on something that you created, which was really cool, but I found a lot of inspiration, including your short URLs on your website. So I’ve been reading your stuff forever, and actually a little bit of fan coming up in me, just like, “Oh, excited to be talking with Derek Sivers.”
Derek Sivers
Well same here. Not to try to one up you, but dude, I’m living in New Zealand partially because of you. Because I held you up as a role model that was becoming a successful writer from Guam. And when I was sitting there thinking I needed to be in the middle of things, I need to be where everything’s happening. Then I thought, “You know, if Leo can do it from Guam. Well, then, damn it, I can do it from New Zealand.” And so it was like you were an inspiration for me moving to New Zealand. It wasn’t like you were just, you know, one of a hundred reasons. It was like it was three reasons to move to New Zealand. And like number two of three was like, “If Leo can do it from Guam.” Oh that’s.
Leo
Oh that’s amazing. Actually, I had no idea that was the case. That makes me even more excited to talk to you. So really cool. I’ve never actually been to New Zealand. I’d love to go one day.
Derek Sivers
It’s no different than California.
Leo
One thing that I’ve noticed about you is your bio. It’s this long list of all these really interesting, fascinating things that you’ve done in your life, explored. You’ve launched businesses, sold businesses. Now you’re passionate about just creating like anything really, and you are constantly putting out more stuff not for monetization or like a place of profit, but just because you like to create and serve and do interesting things. And so I can actually start anywhere. I have so many things that I could talk to you about. I’m like, “Oh, I want to talk to him about that and that and that.” I was looking at all your books, some of them I’ve missed over the years. So we could start anywhere, but I’d love to zoom in on resistance, uncertainty and fear around meaningful work, which as you know, is the theme of this season. Does that sound good to start with?
Derek Sivers
Yeah, yeah.
Leo
Okay. And we’ll see where this leads us. We might actually go to talking about nomadism and all kinds of other fun things. So one of the things that I’m fascinated about you, is that you create like you’re constantly in creation mode, and you seem at least the persona that I’ve picked up on is that you’re very focused, you single task, and you really pour yourself into something you’re like, devoted to the creation that you’re doing, which is an inspiring thing. And, you know, if I’m wrong on this, please feel free to check my feet. But that’s something that I’ve been really inspired by. So I’d love to dive into that. But just before I saw your eyes go up thinking, am I getting that wrong?
Derek Sivers
No, that’s very right. I was just thinking of what aspects of this might be useful for your listeners and I’ll name two things up front. Is that the single tasking is partially my nature, but I think it’s mostly learned the hard way. I think a lot of us, most of us have too many things we want to do, and we feel torn. Or either we can dissipate our energy, we distribute it too widely and nothing gets done, or we just sit there in a state of paralysis. So that’s one thing I want to address. So that’s the donkey and the magnifying glass. I’ll get to that in a second. And I’m just saying them out loud so I can remember these. And then the other one is more of the soul searching, of noticing what excites you and what drains you. And that’s why I keep making things instead of say supervising other people who are making things is because I’ve just noticed--. Yeah, okay, we’ll talk about this one first. We’ll get back to the donkey and the magnifying glass. Okay. I think it’s the ultimate compass that we should use to guide our actions is the choice between what excites you and what drains you. So what’s giving you energy versus what is sucking your energy away? And what’s interesting about fear is that fear is energy. Like fear and excitement are two sides of the same coin. Is the saying right. That fear of something means that thing is exciting you. Fear is energy, which is the opposite of boredom. So what you want to steer away from at all costs is boredom. If something is boring you and just draining you, or just making you feel like going to sleep and just like you really notice, like you literally get sleepy when you do this thing, then that’s something you should be avoiding. But if something is scaring you and hopefully at some point in the season, you’ll talk about The War of Art and The Resistance. Are you going to address that?
Leo
Oh, absolutely.
Derek Sivers
Okay.
Leo
So Steven Pressfield’s work?
Derek Sivers
Yes. It’s Steven Pressfield’s beautiful metaphor, personifying the resistance, almost like the devil you know, with a capital D, like the resistance is a person, is a devil, is a demon that tries to convince you that what you should be doing is watching TV instead of writing your book. It’s there to tempt you like, “No, no, no, come over here.” So as long as you can identify the resistance as fear and then be thankful. That you are feeling fear around this thing. Then one of my life mottos is whatever scares you, go do it. If you’re feeling fear about something, that is what you should be doing. Partially because this is something that excites you so much that it’s energizing you even though you’re feeling it as fear. First, it will be the the flip side of that coin afterwards. But also as a life path. If you keep steering towards whatever scares you, then over and over and over again, you’ll no longer be scared of these things. Like so often, we’re scared of something because it’s the first time. And once you do it, you go, “Oh, I can do that.” And then yeah another notch in your belt. Another thing that you know that you can do now.
Leo
That brings up a couple of questions for me. I don’t know if this is the right time to interject, because you’re on a great train of thought, and I would love to come back to.
Derek Sivers
The magnifying glass and the donkey. I won’t forget.
Leo
You have to come back to that. Okay, great. That’s a great curiosity hook. I definitely need to have that resolved. So one is I love that you talked about fear being energy and that it can actually energize you. But the question that I have, I have a couple of questions. The first one is for some people, they get so caught up in anxiety around that fear, the thing they’re afraid of, that it can tighten their body up and feel draining. And so I’m wondering, is there a way to work with that so that the thing you’re afraid of doesn’t have to be draining? Do you know what I mean?
Derek Sivers
I think it’s easier if you think of it in a less ambiguous way. And imagine yourself, say, about to bungee jump or skydive or whatever, fill in some thing that is more of an obvious example of fear, where whether you’ve done it or if you can just imagine doing it, you know that it’s safe. You sat at the bottom and you watched 20 people bungee jump. This place has been doing it for 20 years. They’re safe. You know that you’re going to be fine. Now you’re standing on the edge of that ledge with a harness around you, looking down at the ground below, and everything in your body is saying, “No, you idiot. Don’t do it,”
Derek Sivers
“Don’t do it. What are you, stupid?” And you have to override your instincts and just tell yourself, “I don’t want to do it, but I’m going to do it.” And you just say, like, “All right, everything about this feels wrong, but here I go. I’m going to do it anyway.” Believe it or not, that’s the kind of self-talk I do. Even when I’m just sitting down to write. Or take on a project I know I should do. I’m scared to do it. And that voice called the resistance is telling me to do anything but this. You know, “Maybe you should eat first. Maybe you should go on a walk. Maybe go call a friend. Go watch something. Look at this funny video.” It’s like standing on the edge of the ledge about to bungee jump or something. I just tell myself, like, I don’t want to do this, but fingers on the keys shut off the phone. Here we go. And I make myself do it. And then one of my favorite metaphors is if Steven Pressfield can personify the resistance. I like to personify inspiration. So inspiration is gorgeous. She is loving and wonderful and all accepting and kind and encouraging, but she will never make the first move.
Leo
Oh.
Derek Sivers
You have to make the first move every time and after you begin. Even though you don’t want to. Then she will come towards you and go the rest of the journey with you. So that’s amazing. So I have to remember that.
Leo
Yeah, yeah. What I’m hearing in that is like, you know, what I was talking about was this kind of anxiety that can really close us down and be draining, but that’s kind of the anxiety of standing there at the ledge. But on the other side, if you’re actually able to jump, it’s releasing and it’s energizing. And so the draining part is just standing there, not taking that leap.
Derek Sivers
Yeah. The strongest I ever felt this was years ago when I was running a web hosting company called Host Baby, and all of my musician clients had been asking me to make this thing that was like a website builder where they they didn’t know HTML. They were all hiring individual web designers that would flake away and screw them over or something. And I knew that if I were to just build this thing where I could ask them their band name, their album name, their song titles such and such and such, upload putting your calendar dates go and it would generate an HTML page. It was really hard to make it. I didn’t know how to make it, but I knew it had to be done and I knew that I was the one to do it. And I knew that if I did it, there would be giant rewards, not just for making a lot of people happy, but I knew a lot of people would be very happy to pay a lot of money for this thing. And I just remember sitting in my living room, almost every day, like every morning, just noticing that I was doing everything but that I was like, “Oh, I have to do this.” And I would curse, I would kick, I would scream, I would like literally all the swear words I know. And then I would just lay down and just put my fingers on the keys. And once I began, every time inspiration would finally come meet me. But yeah, I feel all the same feelings, but I just override them and make myself do the thing that I know. Leads me to where I want to go, and that being who I ultimately want to be.
Leo
It sounds like that was probably like 20 years ago and so or 25 years ago. And so it sounds like 20, 25 years of doing that kind of thing over and over has probably built up a lot of trust in yourself, too. Like, I know if I finally just take the leap, it’s going to be everything that I’ve wanted, you know? Like, I know how that always turns out.
Derek Sivers
Actually, no, it’s still no better than it was 20 years ago. It doesn’t get any better. You know, there was this Nobel Prize winning psychology, behavioral economics, Daniel Kahneman. Who’s been studying cognitive biases and things like this for 50 years now, and somebody asked him recently in an interview like, “So, since you’ve identified all these biases, are you able to override them?” He says, “No, it never gets any better.”
Leo
I’m still human.
Derek Sivers
Yeah, I’m still a victim of all of these things, no matter how much I identify them. So yeah, no matter how much you and I can talk about this, I still struggle with it as much as everybody else.
Leo
That’s actually very good to hear, because I think people can put people on a pedestal like, “Oh, this person’s got it solved and figured out and they don’t have to worry about this. And it’s easy for them now.” And I can relate. Like I still face my resistance. It’s still there. The same fears that were there for me when I first started all of this that still comes up. There’s fears. And the difference now is that I’m better at spotting them and I don’t make them quite as significant as I used to. It’s still a little bit significant, but I still struggle with it, but I think I’m able to work with it a little bit more facility.
Derek Sivers
The definition of courage is not not feeling the fear, but the courage is to feel the fear. And you do it anyway. Yeah.
Leo
Yeah. Okay. One more question before we get to the donkey and the magnifying glass. So you talked about avoid the stuff that drains your energy. Go towards the stuff that gives you energy, which I love that it’s very clarifying. It’s a great compass, but I’m wondering if those are fixed. Do you know what I mean? Where things that drain your energy, like you always have to avoid those and you can’t shift that. What if that was something that you wanted to be energized by or that would create something for you in your life if you move towards that? So I’m wondering what you’ve noticed about that.
Derek Sivers
Okay. Two thoughts. Where I thought you were going with that is that it changes over time. There are times in my life when what excites me is solitude. I need to get out of here. I need to get away. I just want to be alone. That is more deeply exciting. And then there are times in my life when I’ve been alone in Paradise for too long. And what’s exciting is to be in the middle of everything and to take on a bunch of new responsibilities, you know? So it can change with time. And that’s the problem with people labeling themselves as introvert or extrovert, I think that those can swing like a pendulum. But you’re talking about deciding that you wanted to change it. So for that, I journal in a way that I only recently, after many, many years, found out that this is called cognitive behavioral therapy or what I do in my journal for decades has a name. So the kind of journaling I do is usually when I’m feeling a little conflicted about something. I’m feeling incongruent, and I start asking myself questions. I start challenging my beliefs or I start opening up other options. I brainstorm past the first 2 or 3 that come to mind, like, “Uh, what? Okay, I’m stuck in this situation. What’s a solution to this?” And I go, blah, blah, blah, here’s a solution. I go, “Oh, that’s good.” I’m tempted to stop right now. I’m going to make myself do another. What’s another solution? Blah, blah blah, “Oh, okay. Well, I don’t like that one as much. What’s another one?” I make myself keep going and do at least five, ideally even ten different solutions. And not just to tick a box, but each one I take it seriously, and I think of something that would be a radically different way to approach this.
Leo
I love this. This is incredible.
Derek Sivers
Thanks. And for the kind of example you’re talking about where say, I’ll just pick one. Say, I’m currently not prioritizing fitness, but I want to prioritize fitness that it currently drains me, right? But I want it to energize me. In that case, this kind of journaling is ideal that you just you start stacking up reasons. You ask yourself, “What would be all the benefits if this was my top priority. How much better would I feel?” Or than you reverse it, “How bad would I feel if I don’t prioritize this? If I keep going at the path, I’m going on this trajectory. Where will I be in 20 years? And assuming that those things get even worse over time, it’s not a straight trajectory. Then how much worse is this going to get if I don’t prioritize this now?” And you just start stacking up vivid images in your head of the price you will pay if you don’t make this change and the huge benefit you’ll get if you do make this change in your values. And even then, sometimes it doesn’t fully convince you, but you just start to do the actions.
Derek Sivers
You start to embody it instead of just lowering it, you know, arguing it. You start to do the thing again whether you want to or not. Oh, here’s the perfect example. Right outside my recording booth where we’re talking is my squat rack with my deadlift weights. And I do it many times a week, but still, after years, I kind of like the inspiration example. I never, never, never want to do it. I only do it because I have to do it. And I’m 53 now, and those first two squats always hurt and I’m like, “Ugh.” And I know it’s going to hurt and I curse it, but I do it. And almost every time, by the time I get to set three, set four, I’m really glad I’m doing it. And I feel badass, I feel better. But every time, here he is, two days later, time to do it again. I’m cursing and I don’t want to do it, but I’ve just done my values in such a way that I know I need to do this thing. So that’s that.
Leo
Yeah, I love that. And I can so relate to that, that squat example. So thank you. I have a squat rack right below me. So it is calling to me to go do a workout after this. And it’s like oh do I really feel like it. Do I want to.
Derek Sivers
You never feel like it.
Leo
But I always feel so much better. Yeah. At least half way into it. Okay, let’s get to the donkey. It’s been waiting for us.
Derek Sivers
The donkey is going back to your original question of we’ve got too many things, or you said that I tend to focus on one thing at a time.
Leo
Single task, and be really focused and devoted. Yeah, yeah.
Derek Sivers
So there’s a story of buridan’s donkey, I think was an author long ago that made up a fictional donkey to explain a point. I think he was a French philosopher that said, a buridan’s donkey is halfway in between a pile of hay and a bucket of water, and he can’t decide. He’s both thirsty and hungry, and he keeps looking at the water, but then looking at the food and he can’t decide. And he ultimately dies of hunger and thirst because he just can’t decide. And the thing is we’re not a donkey. You can have the foresight to know. I know I can go to the water first, have a drink, then walk over to the food and eat, and then go back to the water and have some more water if I want, and even go back to the food again if I want. We can use the future because thinking of the future is almost our unique human capability. We’re tool makers, but we’re also future makers. We are the only creatures that think-- maybe there might be one other mammal on Earth that does this a little bit, but nobody as much as us. Making future, we predict, we imagine. And so if you’re feeling torn between multiple things you want to do, just think of the donkey and don’t be a donkey. Just know that you can go do one right now and all those other like, “Yeah, but I also kind of want to do this.”
Derek Sivers
Great. Okay. Do those later. You have to start one right now. Otherwise you’re going to die of indecision. Don’t be a donkey. Go just do one right now. So I do that all the time. I have this yearning all the time to do other things, but what really helped is I just started creating a little folder on my hard drive of my computer and my journal, where all these other things I want to do. I will indulge them for a few minutes or a few hours. I’ll type out all the things I want to do and all the ideas I have around it, and I’ll just put it into a folder and those are all in a folder called “Possible Futures”. And I know that those can happen someday. But later. Because right now I need to finish the thing I’m doing. Because I’ve also felt the pain of trying to do too many things at once and never finishing any of them because I was doing too many, too dissipated, you know? So I make myself do one at a time, no matter how badly I am yearning to do the other things, I make myself finish the one I’m doing now so that I can get the pleasure of something done, something launched, something released and be done with it, and then feel more whole hearted about. Then turning to the thing in my possible futures folder that I’m excited to do next.
Leo
Okay, let me ask. I love this. Thank you for sharing that. And I love the donkey story. I’ve heard it a long time ago. And now you’ve brought it to a place where I can actually use it. So thank you for bringing that in. I have someone who I have been working with, and he wants to choose a project to work on, and he has at least five, maybe ten things that he’s really excited about doing in his life. You know, from music to art to comedy to writing and podcasting and so, but he’s just stuck. He’s like that donkey that you talked about just stuck and like, you know, if I choose this, then I feel like I’m shutting off all those other possibilities. So that directly speaks to what you’re just saying. And how would you suggest this guy works with that given some of the stuff you were just saying.
Derek Sivers
It’s just a mature realization that you can do anything, but you can’t do everything. You just can’t.
Leo
Not right now, at least, that’s for sure.
Derek Sivers
Right. And you have to do one thing and use the future to do those other things, but also think in terms of a life well-lived, like get out of yourself for a second and think about your heroes, the people you look up to the most are probably great at one thing, and that’s why you love them. That’s why you love this person’s music or that person’s books because they write amazing books. They’re not also an expert mountain climber and also an excellent film composer and also an excellent botanist.
Leo
Well, I’m not sure you’re the best example of that.
Derek Sivers
Well, no, I mean, I have only really done a few things. In my life
Leo
A few things really well?
Derek Sivers
Uh, to me the common thread is--
Leo
You’re a musician and entrepreneur, a writer. So anyway.
Derek Sivers
I was a good musician, not great, but I was good. I was not a good entrepreneur. I stumbled into the right place at the right time. I just started a music distribution company at a time at the beginning of the .com boom, when nobody else had done it yet. I was the only one. So that was just luck. And the further I got along that path, the more I realized I’m not good at this. Which sometimes I wonder, like, you know, the singer of the Red Hot Chili Peppers. He is not a good singer. How long do you go along this path before you realize, “Man, I am not good at this. I think maybe I should turn to something else.”
Leo
You could be successful without being good, right?
Derek Sivers
Maybe that happened with some--. Yeah, exactly. You can be successful without being good, but I think about Danny Elfman, who’s now a great film composer, started out as kind of middle of the road pop star. I think he was in the The Buggles or something like Oingo Boingo or something like that. And, you know, not great at that, but then started doing film composing. So anyway, I think that for me, I dabbled in a bunch of things, but I realized that all along it was my writing that was central to things. I think the reason people liked CD Baby, my old company, is because of the way I would talk about it and the the spirit I gave it through my writing. Anyway, sorry. Go ahead.
Leo
Every time you say something, five more questions pop up for me, so I’m just going to ask it. How did you recognize that you were writing and you recognized that writing was the thing? Was there a moment for you or? Yeah, yeah.
Derek Sivers
Yeah, yeah. There was a very clear moment because I defined myself as an entrepreneur and a programmer that sometimes shares what I’ve learned in writing, and that’s how I just publicly defined myself without overthinking it. And then one day I had to ask myself, like, wait a second, I’m calling myself an entrepreneur. But I haven’t started a new company since 1998. I have no right to, an entrepreneur means the person who starts a thing who launches it.
Derek Sivers
I haven’t done that in so long. I really have no right to call myself this. And programming. Yes, I love it, but who are my heroes? And really, my heroes are my favorite authors. These are the people that I have up on pedestals that I want to be more like. Are these thinkers? I thought, well, I think that kind of tells me what direction I’m facing. You know, if you’re looking up at someone that tells you which direction you’re facing. So that’s where I’m facing. That’s where I want to go. So that’s when I realized, I think I’m not an entrepreneur and programming is my hobby, but ultimately I’m a writer. That’s my top priority. So getting back to your friend that has ten different things he wants to do. If you step outside of yourself and think of your heroes. They’re probably people that are just really great at one thing. And nobody cares what they’re not good at. So I think it’s okay to keep those other interests as just interests, without thinking that you need to go all the way down that path. Like right now I’ve got a minor. Remember, like in a university, you know, you say you’ve got your major and some people have a minor in something. So these days I’m thinking, like, I’ve kind of got like a minor in anthropology. I am so fascinated with other cultures and other mindsets and other worldviews, and I want to understand them so badly. I’ll stay up all night long, and I’ll just devour anything teaching me about another way of seeing the world. But I’m not going to make it my career. I’m okay to just leave that as an interest.
Leo
Something you’re fascinated by.
Derek Sivers
Yeah. And that’s enough. I don’t have to add that to my list of careers to do. You know, it’s just an interest.
Leo
Okay, I’ve pulled us off of the topic going down some side roads. Should we go back to the magnifying glass?
Derek Sivers
Cool. The magnifying glass is yet another nice visual metaphor. If you ever, as a kid, played with holding up a magnifying glass with the sunlight and focusing it on one single spot and making that spot catch on fire. You could do it to a piece of paper. You could do it to a stick. And the big idea is that sunlight on a stick won’t catch that stick on fire. But if you focus the power of the sunlight into a single, tiny, focused point, then it’ll catch on fire. And think of that with our pursuits that if we spread our sunlight widely, then nothing catches on fire. But if we focus our sunlight on one single thing, then it catches on fire.
Derek Sivers
Yeah, you remember it.
Leo
It’s a beautiful image. Could I ask about tactics around that? So on a tactical level, let’s say you want to focus on writing a book right now. What are some of the things that you do to get that magnifying glass into action.
Derek Sivers
Okay, I actually just had to do this yesterday for my new book. I got off track for a few weeks, almost a few months doing some other things that came up. And because of travel, I had booked a trip. And then that’s kind of my minor in anthropology. I got so fascinated with my trip. I went to Dubai for my first time, not expecting anything. In fact, it used to be on my top ten list of places I’d never want to go. It sounded like the most shallow, crass, materialistic shopping mall of a place. I’d be happy if I never went there in my whole life. But then I was coming back from a conference and my plane went through Dubai. So instead of a two hour stop, I made it a two day stop and oh my God, I was blown away. I’m fascinated, I love it. It’s a fascinating culture. So now I’m learning all about, now I’m digging into an audio book about the Ottoman Empire and learning about Bedouin culture, and picked up a book on Arabic. And I’m fascinated with this culture. And I got a little distracted.
Derek Sivers
So I wanted to turn my attention to my book. I had to get myself back into a mindset. So if specific tactics are to surround yourself with inspiring wisdom on that subject. So now let’s generalize it a little bit. In my specific case I went and pulled up some of my favorite books about writing. And I re-scanned my notes on those books. And I got super inspired again on the subject of writing. But I’ve had to do this with programming before. I still enjoy programming and when I need to do some programming. I pull up some of my favorite books on programming, and I read some of my favorite bits of wisdom and ideas that I’ve collected on programming and get myself re-inspired about programming. Ssame thing with health, fitness, lifting. I’ve read some great books on weightlifting and fitness and health, and if I’m ever feeling like, “Oh damn, you know, this is this is fallen too low in my priorities, I need to bump this up again.” All I have to do is take in some of my favorite bits of wisdom around the subject, and I get reinvigorated and refocused on this and driven to do it again. So that’s my main tactic for anybody that needs to do something.
Leo
After we’re done recording this, I’m going to send you an email asking for some of your favorite books on those topics, because I know people are going to kick me if I don’t ask.
Derek Sivers
Leo, actually, they’re all in one place. You might know already, but everybody go to sive.rs/book
Derek Sivers
And that will bring you to a list. So I started taking notes in 2007 because I had read a couple hundred books before that, and I realized I was forgetting all of these books I had read. And I knew I had read that book eight years earlier, but damn, I don’t remember anything from it, and I don’t want to read the whole thing all over again. So starting in 2007, from that moment, I underline my favorite ideas or circle my favorite thoughts when I’m reading a book. And then after I’m done reading the book, I type my favorite ideas from that book into a text file. So now I can get rid of the book and just save the text file that has my favorite ideas from that book, and I review that often.
Leo
It’s a great collection. I’ve gone through it myself several times.
Derek Sivers
After keeping those to myself for a couple of years, I decided to put them on my website. So now you can see every book I’ve read since 2007. I think there’s almost 400 books there. And most importantly, I sort them in order of my top recommendations so that when somebody says, what’s your top recommended book about programming, or about travel or about fitness, well, they’re all there, and you can just start at the top of the list and--
Leo
Okay. Perfect. Okay. We don’t need links from you. Then you got it all there.
Derek Sivers
That’s the one and only. There you go.
Leo
Yeah.
Derek Sivers
Constantly updated.
Leo
You mentioned your the book you’re currently working on which is something like useful but true.
Derek Sivers
Useful Not True.
Leo
Shoot okay. There’s an important distinction there. And I’ve read through the blog posts that you have there that are going to be a part of this book. And I don’t think I’m going to do a good enough job of summarizing it, but I do want to dive into how it might apply to the topics that we’re talking about here.
Derek Sivers
Sure.
Leo
Yeah. Would you be up for summarizing what the book’s about?
Derek Sivers
Yeah. Hey, time me. I’m going to see how quickly I can summarize the book. Ready?
Leo
Okay, great. All right. Yes. Go.
Derek Sivers
So first I have to say that Useful Not True. This book is personal. It’s about you. It’s not about other people. So while we’re talking about this, forget what other people do. Just think about your own mindset, your own actions that you could take. So first, it’s about pointing out how most of the statements that you hear people say are spoken as truths, but they’re just perspective. It’s just somebody’s opinion. And it really helps to strip away all of this subjective opinion and scrape it down to only the bare, physical, indisputable, objective, observable facts. And those are the only things I consider to be true. Everything else, I think, is negotiable, subjective, able to be seen from another point of view. This is most useful for the ones that where everybody agrees this is hardest to do for the things that everybody agrees that it’s good to call your mother. Everybody agrees that such and such is this way, and it’s hard to strip those down and realize that those aren’t necessarily true either. And so once you strip it down to the bare facts, well, then the next step is for yourself. You can think kind of like we were talking earlier. What would be good for me to believe? What beliefs are useful for me to hold right now that will help me be who I want to be. And instead of relying on saying that these beliefs are true. You say that these beliefs are useful to me because if you start declaring them to be true, well, then you’re going to fight about whether they’re true or not. And if somebody disproves it as true, then you’ve been knocked off the rug pulled out from under you.
Derek Sivers
So let’s stop even trying to argue that anything is true. And let’s just think of whether this is useful for me. Then after you do that, you can start to realize that all of the rules and norms of society are actually just a game that is not so different from the game that we made up as kids. When you would make up rules like, “Okay, now I’m standing at the couch and if you touch the floor, it’s hot lava, but not if I have my fingers crossed. But if I hit you twice, then you’re it.” You know, we make up games as kids and we understand that it’s all just fun. But what’s funny is that when grown ups get older, they suddenly make these games that they treat super seriously. And we think of them as laws, as if they’re laws of physics, but they are just rules that somebody made up, that somebody agreed and somebody lobbied for and somebody made it. But if you find out that the game is stacked against you, if the rules of this game are against you, you have the right and it’s wise to quit that game, to not play that game, to either take another role or make a new game, or just change the rules. So the common thread through all of these thoughts is that we should not think of anything as necessarily true or not true, but just whether it’s useful to us. So Useful Not True.
Leo
Got it. 3.5 minutes.
Derek Sivers
Oh, okay.
Leo
3.32.
Derek Sivers
Thank you.
Leo
That was beautiful, though. A couple of things that struck me about that as you were talking about it. And one of them is it’s liberating. It’s almost like, you know, the matrix, like knowing that you’re in the matrix, you know, like that kind of thing where it’s like, “Oh, this is all a game. This is all made up and we can choose to play that game or not.” Yes.
Derek Sivers
Yes. The scene in The Matrix is at the very end when he realized it’s all just code and kind of embody this now, and they’re shooting him with bullets and he’s just like, ait, no. And he just grabs a bullet and looks at it. It’s like, no, I think not that when you realize that all of these statements that people say so emphatically and try to convince you that they’re true, you realize that, no, that’s not true. It’s useful for you to believe that. And I can see why you believe that or not.
Leo
It might not be useful.
Derek Sivers
Yeah. Sometimes. In fact--. Sorry I left that out at the beginning, but I think that most of the disempowering beliefs that we hold, most of the harmful thoughts we think are not true. And it really helps to see that clearly that none of these are true. And again, even though I’m writing this book and I’ve been immersed in this thinking for a long time, I still catch myself. Thinking thoughts like, “I can’t do what I want from here.” Or, “I can’t do that because I have a kid.” And I’ll say this as a truth as like, well, yeah, of course I can’t do that because I have a kid or I can’t do this thing from here. I’m just picking two examples out. Yeah, right. It feels like fact. And then I have to catch myself like, “Oh, wait a second. Hold on. Useful Not True. Uh, that’s not actually true, is it?” So then I stop and if you can think of even one counterexample, if it’s arguable if anybody can take the flip side of that argument. Well, now it’s no longer true. It’s not necessarily false, but it’s not like absolutely, indisputably necessarily true. And once you prove something is not necessarily true. Well then yeah, now it’s up for creative interpretation. And you can think of a more useful perspective.
Leo
Yeah, it’s like you’re removing these imaginary walls and you get to like, you know, choose them or not. Like, I get to create whatever I want to create.
Derek Sivers
Yeah.
Leo
Yeah, it puts a lot more like that.
Derek Sivers
Imaginary walls. Yeah. Calling something true puts an imaginary wall there.
Leo
It seems really solid, right? Like, “Well, that’s definitely solid. I need to avoid it, not walk straight into it. But what you’re putting people at is some awareness, like that’s not a solid wall. You can choose to believe it or not. But also put putting them at power, putting them at choice. That’s a really empowering thing. Really beautiful. Thanks. You actually already answered one of my the questions that came up for me, which is, as you write the book, what are some of the things that are coming up for you? You know, some of the things you’re noticing as not necessarily true, but maybe not useful. You know, and so you have started on that. Is there anything else that you’ve noticed?
Derek Sivers
Oh, God, so many. This book is taking me much longer to write than I thought, because it’s a personal exploration of a subject that I’ve felt instinctively for years, but I hadn’t really stopped to dissect it. So it’s been in between the lines of all of my other writing for years. I think even a lot of what people liked about the way that I spoke about business in my first book called “Anything You Want”, I talked about entrepreneurship, and a lot of people liked it, which I was really surprised. But it’s because I was looking at common things in a new way. It’s like, well, the common narrative is, let’s say you got to make the the most profit you can. And I’d say, “Well, there are other ways to look at it. You could think about it in terms of making just enough and, and trying to make more people happy. As long as you’re making enough or thinking of this as your own little place where you get to control all the laws of this small universe, which is your business.” And people went, “Whoa, wow, that’s really interesting.” And I went, “Oh.” Because this is just, this is how--.
Leo
I highly recommend that book, by the way. Just want to interject that and I will link to that as well.
Derek Sivers
I just started thinking about these things that way long ago. And then I realized in between the lines that I’m always kind of taking what people say is true, doubting it. And then brainstorming other ways I could look at this and thinking about which of those ways is most useful for me to help me be who I want to be.
Leo
So as you write this book, what are you what have you noticed coming up? Any beliefs that are not so useful, not true”
Derek Sivers
Oh. It’s just a tiny little day to day things, but I see them in my friends. It’s interesting learning about placebos and the things that harm us, that aren’t true. Uh, and it’s also fun to see other ways to play the game. Cute tiny story I’ve never told. My kid was eight years old when his school did their annual football match, and the school takes it very seriously. Sorry, soccer. We were in England at the time. They called it football. So their annual soccer match and his school took it very seriously. And my kid has no interest in sports. And so I dropped him off at the big school sports day and picked him up at 3:00. And I said, “How did it go?” And he had a big smile on his face. He goes, “It was great.” He said, “I had so much fun.” I said, “Tell me about it.” He said, “Well, everybody’s really mad at me.”
Derek Sivers
I said, “Why?” And he said this with a smile. He didn’t care. He said, “Well, so they told me that my job was to be goalie. So I guess I’m supposed to protect the net. But my best friend Cyrus was on the other team, and so I really wanted him to win because he’s my best friend. So every time they kicked the ball at the goal, I just pretended to jump for it. But I made sure to miss it every time. A bunch of people yelled at me, but I don’t care.” He said, “Cyrus was really happy and his team won, which made me happy.” And that’s so sweet. He was so congruent about his happiness with this. Didn’t mind one bit that all the people were yelling at him. And I thought, again, this is a beautiful example of different ways to play the game. You know, you could start a business to see how much money you could lose.
Derek Sivers
You know, like, how much in the hole, can I go? Maybe I can convince a bunch of investors to invest in this thing and then lose all of their money because I’m just giving it to people. There are so many different ways to play the game.
Leo
And see how many people you can piss off. I think that might be fun too.
Derek Sivers
Yeah. Or just, you know, how many people can you help? I mean, wasn’t that kind of like Schindler’s List at the very end? He’s like, trying to save as many people’s lives. And finally they take him away as he’s, like, signing his name one more time, trying to write passes to just--. It’s like he’s giving away everything he has. Whereas all the people around him were thinking like, “How can I profit from this war?” His thing was like, “No, how can I lose everything and just give it all away?” And it made him happy. And we celebrate him, you know, whatever, 180 years later. So, yeah, it’s a nice reminder that there are other ways to play the game that even somebody saying, here’s the rules of the game or here’s how you play. That’s not true either.
Leo
Yeah. I love that. Thank you for sharing that. I’m aware that we’re running out of time, which kind of makes me sad, because I think I could talk to you about for about ten more hours. Maybe all night. But what you shared here is liberating. And I think what it encourages is inquiry like really deep inquiry, which is something that you embody. Now you don’t just lawyer, you embody inquiry, just asking yourself questions and then coming up with ten possible answers to that. And I think that’s what your book also inspires, is just like people to take a look at the things that they believe to be true and then to choose, what do I want to believe? Is this useful? Is there a new way to play the game? Do I want to play that game or is there another game I want to play? And I think that’s really incredible.
Derek Sivers
My favorite one is I often use the phrase in a perfect world.... You know, in a perfect world, how would I play this game? In a perfect world, what would the scenario be? And just making your dream come true scenario, which then when you’re done, you can usually look at it and go, well, I could do that.
Derek Sivers
There’s usually not actually something stopping you. You just had to you have to open up your mind and think about what your ideal scenario would be. And then it’s possible to just go make that happen.
Leo
That word possible is, I think the thing that really comes out for me is like, you’re you’re inviting people to look at what might be possible. And I think that’s actually something that a lot of your work does. It’s like, “Oh, what could be possible?” You know, just like being in that inquiry of like, “What would I like in the perfect world? What would be what would I love?” And we don’t ask ourselves those questions enough, I think. Well, at least most of us do. I think you do. But so I’m excited for that book. I’m going to link to that as well. You know, I know it’s an ongoing work right now and people can sign up to get updates. But I just want to thank you for coming on and sharing some really meaningful work and some thoughts around resistance and donkeys and magnifying glasses.
Derek Sivers
Yeah. I don’t have a podcast of my own yet, but someday I want to ask you ten hours of things too.
Leo
So we should actually book ten hours. That could be fun.
Derek Sivers
Yeah we’ll get special subscriber only the ten hour podcast.
Leo
Yeah, we’ll do some squats and go into that recording booth of yours. I think it’d be amazing. Maybe in Dubai.
Derek Sivers
Anybody listening to this, please send me an email and introduce yourself. It’s the main reason I do interviews like this. I’m clearly not here to promote something, but I really, really, really like the people that I meet that introduce themselves. So if you’re a fan of Leo’s podcast, if you’re a Zen Habits kind of person, you’re my kind of person and would like to know you. So email me, go to my website, just click send an email. I reply to every single one.
Leo
That’s the perfect way to close.
Leo
Thank you Derek.
Derek Sivers
Thanks.