Brews and Books
host: Engers Fernandez
artist performance motivation, career changes after pandemic, self-publishing and ownership, “How to Live”, overcoming information overload
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watch: (download)
Transcript:
Carlos
That no, nobody will ever come. And the first time it’s like we demonstrated that no, people want to see the artist. It’s not necessary that they have to drink or eat to go out. They can just go out to see an artist. And so the bad part about that is that it’s a lot more work. I mean, I have to be aware of hiring the theater and the ticket company and, you know, the advertising. I’m on top of everything. However, I don’t mind. I love it because I am saying, hell yeah, I want to do that theater. I want to do that show. And I think it completely changed my career. A couple of years ago, we started right before the pandemic and we had to stop and then but we retook those plans right after the pandemic, and it completely changed my career. It’s a lot more work, but I love it because it is always very exciting when I go to do one of those theaters. And I think everything began by asking myself, how can I say more hell yeah to my work. That’s the story.
Derek Sivers
Wow. Thanks, Carlos. There are so many interesting angles in that story. For one like you basically made a new game instead of just playing a game you didn’t like. Like most people do, they they play the game they don’t like. They complain about the game. Yeah, but they forget that they have the ability to make a new game. So that’s one thing we could talk about. But also you mentioned a beautiful, important thing to mention, which is it’s harder to make your own game, but it’s a good hard it makes you happier. You’re happy to work twice as hard because by doing so, you’re doing it on your own terms. You’re making just what you want. Yeah, we could go into that later if you’d like. Some other stories of Carlos. I know some musicians that have taken a similar path to you. We’re unhappy with the way things were in the music business, and they made their own game happen, and it’s harder. And I guess I did it a little bit with the way that I’m self-publishing my books. My very first book was on Penguin Publishing, which I think is the world’s largest publisher. But I didn’t want that. That was just an accident. I never intended to write a book, but my friend Seth Godin started a new publishing company, and he just literally called me on the phone and said, “Derek, I want you to be my first author.”
Derek Sivers
So what could you say? But okay. So I said, “Okay.” And he did a cute little tiny publishing company. But after five years it wasn’t going very well. So he sold it to Penguin. So suddenly my book was on Penguin Publishing, the largest publisher, and I didn’t like it. I didn’t like that I didn’t own the rights to my words, that legally they owned the copyright to my book. So if I wanted to say, make YouTube videos of my book, I couldn’t because they owned the copyright, you know. And I just thought, “I don’t like this. I want to self-publish, and I know that a publisher will pay me a lot of money, but this is what I want.” And so I actually bought back my rights from Penguin, and I did a lot of hard work to self-publish my own hardcovers. Yeah, it was a lot more work, but so much more satisfying. So again, that’s something else we could go into if you’d like to. But Carlos, thank you just like in that little story, you just brought up so many interesting points.
Carlos
Okay. Thank you. Thank you very much. It’s great that you say that. No and thank you. Thank you. Because maybe you are the beginning of everything.
Engers
And then here we are again, starting something really special here. So now it’s your turn Derek. This is all you. So we’re going to be here listening to the teachings. We prepare a few slides just to give, like some indication. But at any given point, you want the the slides off and just talk to us or have, like, this type of conversation. Please let me know and we’ll do so. Okay.
Derek Sivers
Yeah. Well, I mean, I didn’t come here with an agenda. I’m not here to promote anything. I’m just here for whatever you guys want me to be here for. Oh, if you guys have any questions or Engers, if you already know something that your audience wants to hear about, feel free to just guide me and let me know what you would like me to talk about here.
Engers
Perfect, perfect. Just know what you just did is going to be dangerous.
Derek Sivers
I’m up for that. That’s why I’m here.
Engers
So how do we start talking about this book “How to Live”? You have mentioned this book being your masterpiece. I remember that, and this is a really special book. So one of the things that we’re trying to do in this event is kind of pick your brain, building how from the different perspective where we are, we have here folks that have been trying to get a business running for a few years now, and their soul is start getting tired within the process. We have folks here that they just literally just graduated from a school and they start realizing, “Did I get just a lie? Is this what life is going to actually be?” We have in the audience, folks that are setting goals to reinvent themselves as a professionals. And I think, what better book, we will start the discussions about the learning of “How to Live”. So let’s do this. Since the way we’re doing the podcast, tell us a little bit of how this book start. And then let’s talk about your own findings as you were writing the book, how important is self sufficiency and independency when you’re setting goals?
Derek Sivers
Okay. So how I made the book. I’m assuming, like many of you, I have read a lot of non-fiction books that have conflicting advice. Right. So one book will talk about how atomic habits are everything, and it’s all based on good habits. And then somebody else will say, “No, it’s all about the subtle art of not giving a fuck.” And somebody will say, “No. It’s all about doing everything in four hours per week.” There are so many books. And let’s say there are so many philosophies in life that completely contradict each other. But they’re all right. They’re not wrong. And so how do we reconcile the clash? And so I thought, wouldn’t it be beautiful to make somewhat of an artistic statement. Not the usual non-fiction hit you over the head with my message statement, but instead be a little more artistic where you don’t tell the audience the conclusion, you let them figure out the conclusion for themselves. So instead, I made this little book with 27 chapters. That’s kind of like reading 27 conflicting non-fiction books, but it’s really the culmination of everything I’ve ever learned in my life. But I had to recategorise it into these deliberately conflicting chapters. So everything I’ve ever learned about self-sufficiency and independence, self-reliance. I put that all into chapter one about and I said, “Here’s how to live, be independent.”
Derek Sivers
And everything in that chapter is supporting the idea that this is really the way to live is to truly be independent. But then I took everything that I’ve ever learned about the importance of commitment. Dedication, not just commitment to a person or a path, but commitment to a place, staying in one place, staying with one career, committing to your family, committing to your business partners, committing to your clients. That’s completely valid and it’s crucial. So I put everything I ever learned about that into chapter two, saying, “Here’s how to live, commit.” And I make the best argument I can for why we should commit, even though I deliberately, you know, put those right next to each other because they contradict each other and then it just keeps going with--. You know, just fill your senses. There is no past. That’s just your memories. There is no future. That’s just your imagination. All that really exists is right now. So just live for the moment. Fill your senses, and then the next chapter will say, “Here’s how to live: Live for the future. Do everything today to serve a brighter future. So now I’ll tell you guys, I didn’t put this in the book. I was tempted to, but I left this out of the book because I wanted to end leaving your own conclusion.
Derek Sivers
But to me. This deliberate juxtaposition was meant to give you the feeling that it’s up to you to decide what tool to use when. And that’s why, in the very last page of the book, I put a picture of a symphony orchestra seating chart, because there are 27 instruments in that picture, and they match with the 27 chapters of the book. And it’s meant as the metaphor that if you were to ask a composer what is the right instrument? He’ll say, “What? That question, it’s the wrong question. What do you mean, the right instrument? There is no right instrument. You choose the violins when you want the violins, you choose the clarinet when you want the clarinet and the piano when you want the piano and you combine them, you can combine the piano and the violas, and you combine the cellos and the flutes. You don’t have to pick one. It’s a silly question.” So I think it’s the same thing with not only philosophies, but even for those of you running a business. By the way, I love the idea of the all white clothes. When I first moved to Boston, everybody was wearing black, and so I made it my mission to go wear all white anyway. So whenever, even as you’re running your business. People will give you conflicting advice and you yourself will think conflicting thoughts about how to run your business.
Derek Sivers
You know, maybe I should try to be super popular and have millions of customers. No, wait. Maybe I should just have ten high value customers. You know, you can go through these different ways. The message of How to Live, that book in between the lines was there’s no right answer. It’s up to you to use time like a composer does. Maybe there’s a time in your life where you need to say, hell yeah. And there’s a time in your life where you need to say yes to everything. There’s a time in your life where you need to stay independent. And a time in your life when you need to commit. And there’s a time in your business where you need to do the gigs you don’t want to do because you never know what’s going to be worth it. Or you just need the $500. And there’s a time in your life where you decide to change the game like Carlos did and say, “No, I’m going to do it just the way I want it, even though nobody else does it this way, I don’t care. I want to do it.” But none of those is the right answer. It’s up to you to decide when you need them.
Carlos
Engers, you’re muted.
Engers
I love that model. That’s a new one, Derek. Thank you for that message. And one of the things that I said in the beginning is like, you live what you preach, and I’m a testament of-- I’m going to tell my own version before, because I’m setting for a second question around the book, How to Live. I remember, I think probably the second time, because I’ve been trying to get Derek to talk to us for a year. And I think, if I remember correctly, with your son, in a vacation time or something like that and was like, “Who is this guy?” Honestly, like that got me thinking for two days, there is this guy who everyone celebrating as an entrepreneur. My version of an entrepreneur in a capitalistic society is like, you have to go, go, hustle, hustle, do do do do. And this guy is telling me, I’m sorry, man, time out. I don’t care how many people you have on following you this time, I’m going to enjoy it with my family. And that was striking to me with living in the United States with this hostile society right. So when we set in goals from this point of view of How to Live. What is the process of thought that goes to you when you prioritize experience over material possessions or anything between those lines?
Derek Sivers
Okay. I want to make sure you guys don’t get the wrong message from this. I don’t think you should be like me. The point is to be true to what you really want. You’ve got to do some soul searching, whether that’s talking with friends, meditating. I write in my journal a lot. I mean, I write in my private diaries, like an hour a day, at least often, just to sort out my own thoughts and figure out what I really want. And even when I think I know what I really want, then I talk about it with friends for a few days. And sometimes after a few days I think I thought I wanted that, but after now I say it out loud a few times. I think I was just in a mood that day. So you’ve got to know, like, “What’s your dream scenario?” You know, in a dream come true world. How would you do things and then aim for that like forget everybody else. It doesn’t matter what everybody else is doing. It really doesn’t matter. It’s up to you to decide what you really want. Because of your personality and the way you are. So it’s different for everybody. So here are some examples. You might actually get really inspired by money. You might think of it like a video game score, or you just find it fun to see how much money you could make.
Derek Sivers
And if that inspires you, well, then that works for you. So you can optimize everything to just see how much money you can make. And maybe you won’t be the most charitable person. Maybe you won’t spend 10,000 hours with your kids. But if this is what’s motivating you the most, then that’s what you need to do. And let’s use another example. Maybe you get motivated by the idea of being famous. You know, whether that’s like popularity on social media or on mainstream media or whatever famous means to you, it might be a reputation among the experts, or it might just be how many followers you have on an account. But if that drives you. Then so be it. That’s what you’re going to do. So here’s the point, no matter what you choose, somebody is always going to tell you that you’re wrong. They’re going to say “No, no, no, no, you’re being greedy. How dare you chase money? Or you’re throwing away your career by just spending so much time with your kids? Do you realize how much more money you could be making if you were to spend less time with your kids? You know you’re being stupid. You’re wrong.” So no matter what works for you, other people are going to tell you that you’re wrong.
Derek Sivers
And that’s why you need to know what drives you. And you’re not going to preach it to others. You’re not going to say, “Hey everybody, this is what you should do.” No, you’ve got to understand, this is just for you, that we all have a slightly different nature. And you’ve got to know what drives you, what works for you. So for me, yes, my kid and I are like soul mates. He’s 11 years old and we really are like soul mates. I spend like 40 hours a week, just one on one. Just me and him. No devices. We just spend 40 hours a week just hanging out together in nature, talking about life. And I wouldn’t trade it for anything. I don’t care if Beyonce and Jay-Z wanted me to give the keynote at their New Year’s Eve party, if I have plans with my kid on New Year’s Eve, well, you know, maybe he’d want to come to that party. Never mind, you know what I mean. I know what my priorities are, and I know what works for me. So I like living in New Zealand, away from things. I also really liked living in New York City. I lived in New York City for ten years. I lived in Los Angeles for years.
Derek Sivers
I liked being in the middle of the hustle, actually. And speaking of switching gears, I did the hustle for many, many years. I’m 54 now, so from the age of- let me think. I think from the age of 16 or 17. Not only was I hustling. I was hustling to a level that scared my friends. My friends said, Dude, relax. Have you considered eating a meal? Have you considered sleeping?” And I’d say, “No. No time for sleeping. No time for eating. Work, work, work.” And I would get up at 5 a.m. and I’d practice, and I’d start the hustle and I moved right to the middle of New York City. I wouldn’t stop to eat. I never went out to parties. I was just nonstop working all the time. And that’s what I did for 15 years of my life. And it wasn’t really until the age of 38 when I sold CD Baby. True story, literally the day after I sold CD baby, I started my next company, I incorporated it, I hired someone, I started building the database, and I got three months into it and I said, “Wait a second. What am I doing? If I keep doing this? I’m not going to change my life. I’m going to keep doing the same thing I’ve been doing.”
Derek Sivers
Like I’ve been doing this hustle for yeah, 24 years at that point. I was like, “I think I need to do something different.” So I deliberately changed my plan. I deliberately changed my modus operandi, is that what we call it M0? And then the girl I was dating got pregnant and so and I was like, “Oh, a kid, huh? Didn’t think that was going to happen. All right. I guess I’m going to have a kid.” So that helped me stop the hustle. But up until that point, you know, don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying that you shouldn’t hustle. That was my whole life for a long time. But then this goes to show again that no one way is the answer that everybody that you here today. And by the way, Engers, thanks for doing the introductions of everybody at the beginning. It was so cool to see you guys and know who’s here. It means so much more that way. Yeah. Everybody who’s here today, you’ve got your own different things that drive you. And you hear advice from smarty pants billionaires telling you what you should be doing and just listen to it as them telling their personal preference. They don’t know what you should be doing. They’re just spouting their shit about what works for them. But you’ve got to know what works for you.
Engers
Carlos, I know you have your hand for a while. Just one quick note. You were talking about. You have a son, 11 years old. Your soul mate. Just like my soul mate. Whatever I go, there she is. She has read your books. She has been every time I have an author. And when you said 11 years old since she is 11 years old, she’s like, what? And she just text me, like, “Don’t make any ideas. Like, she will not be my soulmate.” Go on. Carlos.
Carlos
Yeah. Derek wanted to ask you what do you think about being overwhelmed by information. For us people who like books and we have an entrepreneurial spirit. We read a lot of books. Sometimes there are times of the year that I devour, like a couple of books, maybe a week. And so there’s a lot of books out there that are great. But each book basically has its own method. So sometimes I think if I would get more advantage out of reading five books 20 times instead of 100 different books. Maybe if I just take one book and say, “Okay, this is going to be my method.” And I learn every word, I sometimes ask myself, maybe that’s more effective than trying to read every book that comes out.
Derek Sivers
I agree. Because that’s leaving more room for action. So Carlos notice that the difference between those two plans reading 100 books versus five books. Is, if you’re reading 100 books, you’re just taking, taking, taking, taking more information. There’s always another book with more to say. Just by reading five books, you’re not just going to keep reading. What you’re saying is, I want to act on five books. And I think ultimately actions are what matters. Not just taking in more information. So yeah. Anybody here, we would all do better to pick any one book and put it into action. Or actually, you know what, actually, let’s forget about it needing to be a book. You could just say, “Hey, for 2024, I’m going to stop reading. I’ve got enough information now. I’m going to take December 2023 to make a plan using all of the information.” Again, it doesn’t even need to be from one book, but everything I’ve ever learned in my life up until now, everything I’ve learned about business, everything I’ve learned about, you know, happiness and health or whatever it may be, you’ve got enough information. You could say 2024 is the year I stop taking in new information, and I just act upon all the information I’ve taken in up until now.
Engers
I love that, although it’s going to affect my bottom line.
Derek Sivers
I realize too, I was saying that too. Sorry about that.
Engers
But I totally love the action because that’s the only way it create a reaction. So I don’t know, I might change one of my goals this year. Derek.
Derek Sivers
You know what? I haven’t told anybody this story yet, but I’m probably going to, right. I’m probably going to blog about this someday soon. One of my best friends is from Bangalore, India. And I thought it was weird that I didn’t hear from her for six months. And then, like, I would try to reach out to her and nothing. I thought, “Wow, I wonder, did I upset her? What’s wrong? Did she die?” We don’t have any mutual friends that I wouldn’t hear if she died. I was like, “Okay, that’s pretty extreme. I doubt she died, but wow, what the hell. Haven’t heard from her for six months.” And I would text her in WhatsApp and the second tick wouldn’t appear, you know, meaning she hadn’t even seen it, so I thought maybe she changed her number. What’s wrong? Six months later, I hear from her from a new phone number and she says, “Hi Derek. I just got out of jail.” She said, “I’ve been in jail for six months.” Some asshole delivered drugs to her door and they sent her to jail for it. So she sat in jail for six months in India, in a women’s prison. And she got out. She said, “I can’t deal with this. Information overload.”
Derek Sivers
You know, she’s in her early 30s, she said, “I decided to take this opportunity to make a distinction between my old life and my new life. I’d had that phone number for 15 years. Everybody has that phone number. This new phone number. I’ve only given this number to my ten best friends.” And she said, “But already people are starting to forward me little bullshit from the news. Ha ha. Look at this little meme. Look at this. It’s too much.” She said, “I’ve been in prison for six months with no internet. And I’ve just been reading books and thinking and writing in my journal. She said, “Suddenly I’m out and I’m overwhelmed with all this, you know, social media stuff, I can’t do it.” So she decided not to. She decided to just basically not partake in it. So she’s off all social media. She doesn’t use it. She has no social media apps on her phone. She asked the people that were forwarding her things on WhatsApp. She said, “Please don’t do that. I don’t want to see it.” And she decided to learn Spanish, actually. And so she spends hours a day just practicing Spanish instead of taking in more and more information.
Derek Sivers
And she said, “I’ve wanted to learn Spanish for like over ten years. Just because of this low information diet that I’m on Post-prison, I finally done it.” She’s like conversational in Spanish now for her first time, in a way that she couldn’t have done beforehand when she’s just too busy being overwhelmed with information. It was sweet. She actually thanked me for the inspiration on that, because she used to tease me about living under a rock here in New Zealand, hanging out with my kid in nature. I don’t have any social media apps on my phone, and I never have. And she used to tease me about that. And now she’s like, “You know, you were part of the inspiration.” But she said, “I’m getting more done than ever and I’m making.” So Carlos, that’s kind of like a hell yeah or no. Instead of lots of little things taking up her time. Now there’s just one thing taking up her time, which means that one thing is finally having a real impact for her. So I think all of us could learn a lesson from this.
Engers
Powerful message. I’m unmuted. Okay, perfect. And I have something to ask you around that, but I know, Hayden, you have--.
Derek Sivers
Let’s let Hayden talk before he falls asleep.
Hayden
Yeah. So first of all, this wasn’t the point, but the point you made for your friend. In the old days, I could remember everybody’s telephone number in France, America, this, that and the other, and then those-- I don’t know if it was a BlackBerry, but those kind of things came out, and then you filed them all away, and then you kind of drop it in the toilet. And back in those days, you couldn’t repair them and you were lost. And it was so cathartic. It was fantastic to the point where almost every ten years I kind of do it on purpose. Nice to start again, but the point I was going to make was going back to Carlos’s trigger was, and it’s not everybody’s favorite book, but there’s a guy called Stephen Covey that wrote the Seven Habits and his tenet is that once you’ve waltzed around all the seven habits, if you apply them, you become a different person. So it’s like going up a spiral staircase. And then when you’re on the first floor, you see the whole world completely different, and then you apply the habits differently. You become different. You go up to another floor and you can just keep going like that with one book if you really wanted to. But it’s the application of the habits, not the words in the book. It’s what you do with them and how you psychoactively change so you both trigger in wonderful things, because in the last ten years I’ve now got grandkids and the oldest one’s eight and the second one’s five. And that’s another completely different game. Wait till you, you know, it’s like you’re just a kid without any responsibility. So it’s a really weird thing. So it’s brilliant. Anyway, that was my two penny worth there.
Engers
Thank you Hayden. Now we’re going to transfer from this concept of How to Live and I think the message that we got right now or two messages, I think to close that part of our conversation that at least I’m getting as trying to summarize. One is, we all get conflicting information. We are the one that at the end decide what works for me. And that is like summarizing. That’s like the closing of that book, How to Live. That’s the weird conclusion as your title in the book. The second is there’s nothing wrong in an overwhelming society with information to just stop. And probably go in the other way and put more action. At least that’s the two types that I’m getting at that I got from this conversation. Now, my favorite book for you is this right here. “Anything You Want” a different kind of entrepreneur.
Engers
I read this book last year during December vacation, and I think I met Melissa and Gregory at that time when they were opening. And I said, “You guys need to read this book. You guys need to read this book.” I had like a Bible. I don’t know if you guys remember the Mormons back in the days, right? I had it, like, with me. Because it feels a lot like a different message and methodology. And you do this, man. And I have a question before we talk about the book. Actually, let me let you talk about the book, and this is my question. So you can get in a flow. When I really like you got me.
Engers
It’s when I said my processes. When I read the book of an author, I look for that author on Instagram, and then I message that author on Instagram. And when I come and see that you have all these followers on Instagram, you have not even put a post. No post at all. I said this guy has a game that is beyond the game. So here it is. Let’s talk about being a different kind of entrepreneur and tell me how in the world with no social media presence. See, for me the game is, “Oh, this guy is forcing me to go to his website.” And now I’m seeing everything. Like I see the books and now I’m in person. I don’t have to deal with any other distractions. And I thought that was the game, but probably I’m wrong. So how this book came about and then I want to know this social media strategy of you.
Derek Sivers
It is okay, let me do that in reverse order. No. Okay. I mean, I guess it’s all combined. The truth is, I just don’t care what other people do. You know. So sorry. I forget her name right now. The woman who is here that sells the all white clothes. Yes. When I was a teenager, I would react against my surroundings. So I moved to Boston and everybody’s wearing all black. And so, like, as a reaction, I decided to strategically wear all white. It was hard to find white jeans and and so then I was rebelling against my surroundings. But as I get older and by older, even just in in my 20s and early 30s, I just asked myself this question more often of like, “How do I want things to be? Forget what everybody else is doing.” I don’t care what venues other musicians are playing in. I don’t care how everybody else is setting up their business. How would I do it? What’s my dream come true? And so I think I’ve just been following that question all along. I never meant to start a business. I was really just a musician selling my own CD. And then I built a little store on my website just to sell my CD.
Derek Sivers
But this is back in 1997, so there was no PayPal. Amazon was just a bookstore. And if you were a musician, there was literally no other way to sell your music than on your own website. So I built it just for me. But then my musician friends in New York City asked me, “Oh, hey man, can you sell my CD through that thing?” And I went, “Yeah, all right. Sure.” And so I was just doing it as a favor to friends, but then friends told friends and soon I had like 20 musicians sending me their CDs to to sell on this thing. So I realized I had accidentally started a business. So in that moment, I had to stop and do a little soul searching where I said, “Okay, it looks like I’ve accidentally started a business and it looks like it’s going to go well. People are really excited about this thing. So from my musician’s point of view. What would be a dream come true scenario.” Like, forget what anybody else says. I don’t care what the rest of the music business does. How would I want it to be? I thought, “Okay, well, as a musician, I want to know the full name of everybody that buys my music. Don’t hide that from me. These are my fans, not yours platform. These are my fans. I want to know the name and contact info of everybody that buys my CD. I want to be paid every week.”
Derek Sivers
Because in the usual music business they would pay you like two years later. And let’s see, “No paid placement. So there would be no advertising, so I would have an equal shot of being noticed as anybody else. Nobody could pay to be on the front page. And I think number four would be they would never kick me out for not selling enough.” So even if I put out an obscure recording of me making chicken noises into a tin can. There might be somebody on Earth that wants that recording. So the usual music business would kick you out if you weren’t selling big, because they’ve only got so much space in the physical record stores. And if your album wasn’t selling well, they’d kick you out and it was no longer available. So those are my four missions. And so yeah, I set off to do this thing. Not caring what the rest of the music industry did, I said, “This is how I want it to be.” And that’s what the book is about. Seth Godin asked me to write that after I sold the company. He said, “Could you write a story about how you built and sold your company and the lessons you learned along the way?” And I said, “Sure, I’ve been talking about this stuff for years.” And so I wrote that book in 11 days, basically just telling my stories. And that was that.
Engers
I wrote mine for two years.
Derek Sivers
So it’s only like 90 pages, I think, right. So yeah, I wrote it in 11 days. Hand it to Seth, and he released it a week later and that’s that. But I think the message for everybody is still the same, which is it can help to be deliberately naive about the way that things are done ordinarily and to just say, “You know what? I don’t care how things are done ordinarily. Here’s how I want it to be.” No matter whether you’re starting a business, parenting your kids, you don’t need to read what other people do to parent their kids. Just say like, “Here’s what I want to do. Here’s how I want my kid’s childhood to be. In a perfect world, what kind of childhood would my kid have? Okay, well, that’s what I want to provide.” I want to provide the in a perfect world answer. It’s the same with anything. I mean, even Enger is what you’re doing here with Brews and Books is unique. You’re not just imitating yet another Joe Rogan imitator. You know, you’re doing something really unique. And I really admire that. Yeah, that’s the lesson of Anything You Want.
Luis
Now with that in mind, here’s probably-- I don’t know how tough of a question this is, but I know it’s a question that is in every entrepreneur’s mind, which is, when we are entrepreneurs, there is this crazy idea that we want to become a reality and we put those three resources time, energy and money. And often time because money is not a resource that is available abundantly, although it is abundantly in the word. But there has to be an exchange. We put a lot of time and energy. So when that type of pressure comes, because that’s where most entrepreneurs like, no matter who they are, even if they have millions of dollars in the bank or doing millions of dollars in transaction, the story of is not enough.
Engers
To do things like-- and this is because I’m big in promoting on social media. It really impacts me when I look and look for you. And I said, “This guy has all these followers, he hasn’t done anything.” And then when I read Anything You Want. My favorite story is when you were trying to define how much I’m going to ask people to pay me, and you go to a traditional store and you hustle there like basically, you know, like all those kind of things. So the question really is about when that pressure starts. That I’m about to break because the money’s not there and I need to keep the business running, and I need to get things done because my dream needs to come true. Most people fail in that process, feel like they’re not doing what they supposed to do. And then instead of abundance where the idea is started. The woods are getting smaller and less resources and less resources. I bet as an entrepreneur yourself, you went through that or some version of that. I will say, unless there is some secrets in your process as an entrepreneur that made it different. So that’s my question. Like how do you deal with that type of pressure. And then after you do the answer, Carlos Sanchez you have a question.
Carlos
If anybody else has a question, give them a priority, please. If not, then I’m here.
Derek Sivers
Look, all I’ve got is my own experience. So here’s what happened in my past that shaped the way I think of this is, I was a struggling musician for about 15 years. It was like an uphill battle the whole way. I was doing my music and audiences mostly didn’t want to hear it. And I kept pushing those doors and the music industry didn’t want it at all. It was like every door was locked to me. I was constantly pushing uphill, constantly trying to open locked doors, and it was mostly all about me. It was me trying to put my music out into the world. I wanted to share my thoughts, share the sounds in my head. You know, I told you the story about how I accidentally started CD Baby because I was just selling my CD. But then some friends asked if I could do theirs. So in that moment, once I realized that this thing had taken off. It came at a really good timing for me because at that point I had been touring for 15 years and I was just getting sick of it. And then this little side hobby started. I wasn’t a computer programmer. I knew nothing about this stuff. I was in over my head and I loved it. It was so nice to be in over my head for once, because I’d been doing the same routine on the road, doing gigs, playing concerts. But here’s the important thing, I was serving others. Everything I was doing was for them, not me. I didn’t want to start a business. But there were musicians that were asking me to. I didn’t want to.
Derek Sivers
I didn’t really want to be doing most of what I was doing. But people were asking me to do it. So I said okay, and I made everything about them. I woke up every day just to serve. I didn’t look at my bank account. I was just there to serve. And I just took a quick calculation of saying, “Okay, it takes me about 15 minutes of work to add a new album into the store. I’ll charge $25. I’ll store the CDs in my garage. That sounds fine.” You know, like I didn’t do any business calculations. That was it. Everything I did was just serving others. And as soon as I switched my approach to life, to serving others. Suddenly it felt like every door opened to me. Now, instead of everything feeling uphill, everything was downhill. Meaning, it was like when you run downhill and it’s like you’re running so fast, you feel that you’re almost going to fall over because it’s too much. That’s what my life was like for ten years. CD Baby was just so successful. That it was like doubling in size every year, and it was so much that I just had to show up and just serve every day. I didn’t have to look at the business.
Derek Sivers
I didn’t have to try to make money. Money was just shooting my direction because I was just serving other people. I was doing whatever they asked me to do. And that was key. So again, I’m only sharing my experience. I’m not saying this is the answer, but this shaped how I see business. Because when I meet entrepreneurs that say, “I want to start a business.” And I’ll say, “Doing what?” They go, “I don’t know And I’ll say, “To me that’s like somebody saying, I want to wear a bandage. And I’ll say, do you have a wound? No, I just want to wear a bandage.” It’s like a business is a solution to a problem. There is no need for a business unless there’s a problem, like an open wound that needs bandaging. If somebody else is bandaged it, then there’s no need for another bandage. There’s already a bandage. But it’s only when you find an open wound that needs bandaging that you go, “Oh, I can help. I can make a business to help that.” And that’s the whole point, is you’re there to to cure the open wound, to take care of people. And it’s not about you. It’s about them. And to me, that’s the only spirit in which business makes sense to me.
Engers
That’s powerful. I have a few words to say before we can pass to another question. But, Carlos, we have Carlos Gomez and Carlos Sanchez. Carlos Sanchez, what was your question before I move the directions.
Carlos
Derek, I’ve noticed that you may have a natural talent for two things that I don’t know if it’s a natural talent. Or did you build it? Which is the long span attention. And you don’t have FOMO. But what do you have to say about those two things? I think we have a lot more FOMO than before. And do you have any advice on how you can build on those two things?
Derek Sivers
They are related. I think it’s coming from that place that I said, where I try to think of everything on my terms. It sounds selfish to say it like that, but I just don’t really care what the rest of the world is doing. I don’t really care what what people say. I don’t really care what other people think. I don’t care what other people do. And because of that, social media is just not attractive to me. Yeah I just don’t care what anybody else is doing. I take in high quality information. That works for me. Usually only highly recommended books. Books that many people have told me like, at least more than one person has told me, “Oh yeah, this book changed my life, trust me.” And even when the first person says it, I’m like, “Okay, noted.” And it was not until a second person tells me, “Oh yeah, this book, oh my God, this book changed my life.” I’m like, “Okay, now I’m listening two people have said the same book.” Then I’ll take in that book. And I’ll read it very carefully. I don’t know if you guys have seen the book notes on my website. If you go to sive.rs/book. You will see the last 400 books I’ve read and my detailed notes on every one, because while I’m reading a book, every idea I read that I think I can use that, I underline it, and then when I’m done with the book, I type it into a text file so that I never have to read that book again.
Derek Sivers
I only just want to read my takeaways from it, and then I try to put them into action in my life. I review them often and honestly, that’s enough information for me. What is that? Maybe 20 books a year. 20 or 30 books a year. That’s plenty. And I just think most of what is on social media just seems like trash to me. So I just don’t let it into my brain at all. I don’t read the news. I don’t have a TV. I don’t even listen to podcasts, honestly, because it just again feels to be like low quality inputs. Books really are my filter. That’s what works for me. Again, I’m not saying everybody else should be like this, so the the lack of FOMO comes from a lack of caring what other people think. And the long attention span, again, just works for me. I’ve just noticed that it feels like a day well spent if I do one thing for 12 hours, it feels like what a day. I go to bed that night going, “Fuck yeah, that was great.” Whereas like those days where I do 50 little things, I’m like, “Ugh, I didn’t like today. I’m glad I got those things done.”
Derek Sivers
Yeah, I hope I can just do one thing tomorrow. So you combine those two things and sorry, I keep forgetting to answer your question about Instagram. The truth is, I’m just not a photo guy. I don’t take photos, even for myself. I just went to Japan for two weeks with my kid, and when I got back, somebody asked for photos and I went, “Oh, I didn’t take any.” Like, I literally didn’t take a single photo in two weeks in Japan, and I just don’t take photos. And so somebody told me long ago I should make an Instagram account. I was like, “There created an account. I was like, yeah, maybe someday I’ll be convinced.” And I didn’t even know I hadn’t looked at it. I didn’t know that I have followers on that page, I hadn’t looked.
Engers
You should take a look. Because when I look at it, I just had a conversation, let’s call it as a consultant for business, right. And we were talking about social media, the importance of social media and things like that. As I’m talking about that, at the same time, I’m thinking about this particular event and the reality that you don’t post anything. You know what I mean? Like, there’s nothing there. And yet you have followers that have never seen one post from you, but they go to your website and they have all these things. I have one as an entrepreneur before we go to Hell Yeah or No. You do something very interesting that I haven’t seen when someone comes and purchase one of your books. You can get the audio version of the book and the PDF version of the book. It’s like a traditional entrepreneur say you leaving money on the table. Is it like from that perspective? When I saw that, I saw if the Brews and Books folks, I can say, “Hey, I’m trying to make this deal. Get the four books and you’re getting an audio, you’re getting PDF, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. We’re going to buy.” So everyone say, “I’m going to buy because now I’m getting everything.” So it works for me at that time and obviously works for you. There’s a second part that Carlos didn’t mention because it’s a two part question. What you did-- I don’t know if Carlos Sanchez remember his pose. His pose was what caught my attention as he was amazed about the customer service he got from you. He ordered some books and, I don’t know, something didn’t work with those books.
Carlos
And then the credit card was failing to charge . And so Derek told me, “Try it again because I was refreshing the web page.” And oh my God, again. I said, “Derek is still not working.” And I remember the email said, “Well, who knows what’s wrong? In the meantime, you just got a $96 order for free.” That was I literally peed my pants when I saw that email.
Carlos
That was like, “Oh man, my favorite author, he’s giving me his books.”
Derek Sivers
Oh, I thought it was the reverse. I thought, that’s why you like me. So. Oh, God, that’s funny. I remember that was like, yeah, that’s not common. That was like one particular night I was in there in the server and I was making some changes, and I had just switched something over. And then you were one of the first people, I guess to do and then it like didn’t go through and I was like, “Okay, try it now. It didn’t go through. I was like, “Oh man, I’m embarrassed. I was like, all right, this is my fault, not yours. Here, at least I can do.” That’s funny, I remember that. Yeah, that only happened once.
Carlos
I put that on my Instagram. I have like 270,000 followers and like, at least 100 followers started asking me, “Who is this guy?” And I started saying, go to this web page and get to know his work. And so I’m sure that brought you some new followers, I hope.
Derek Sivers
Thank you. Wait. So Engers, was there a question?
Engers
I couldn’t finish, the question is-- and it’s related to point number one in entrepreneur. When we think business, it’s always this transaction.
Derek Sivers
Oh yes. Leaving money on the table okay. So you know what I’m going to say. Sorry guys. You can probably predict what I’m going to say is that was just me once again when I decided to self-publish my books. I said, “Okay, what would be the dream come true scenario if I’m a fan of a book?” Just pick one. You know, 4-Hour Work Week if I’ve paid $19 for this book. I bought the paper version and now I feel like listening to it. I don’t think I should have to pay another $20 to listen to it. And you know what? Now I’ve bought it twice. Okay, so I have the hardcover from when it first came out. Now, I bought the audiobook for a trip I took. Now I got a Kindle. Man, I really wish I had it on Kindle. Really, you want me to pay another $13? Again, like, that’s just bullshit. Come on, man. I paid for these words three times over. So when I was self-publishing, I just thought, “Well, here’s how it should be. You pay me once. And once you pay me the 15 bucks, that’s it.” Even future formats that haven’t been invented yet, you know, future holograms projected into your eyelids that will be included in the year 2060.
Derek Sivers
If you bought my book back in 2020. Because to me, you’ve already paid for those words. And that’s how I want it to be. So then it was just a technical thing, I think, “Okay, well, how can I make this happen?” And it took some work with programming to say like, “Okay, you know, if they paid this and all the other formats linked to show that they paid. So yeah, it’s making a dream come true instead of caring what anybody else does but Enger so sorry I looked at the time. We’re coming down to kind of like our last 20 minutes. I want to make sure that everybody who’s here that hasn’t asked a question, that might have a question kind of sitting on the tip of your tongue. I want to make sure everybody has time. So anybody who’s here that hasn’t asked anything yet, if you’ve got a question, please let us know. Raise your hand or do what you need to do.
Engers
I think we have Melissa.
Melissa
I picked the wrong hand, but okay.
Engers
That works.
Melissa
Derek would like to know how can you overcome your fears? Like when you know you could do something, but then again, something holds you back. And then when you take that leap of faith, like you go ahead and do it, and then something comes out wrong and you’re like, “Shit, I should have not done it.”
Derek Sivers
No. Okay. Melissa, a trick question. You should not overcome your fears. I think that’s a common mistake or it’s almost like for some reason that became socially normal to say we need to overcome our fears. But the truth is, I think your fears are giving you important information. It’s telling you that you’re not feeling ready yet. You’re not feeling prepared. And so instead of trying to overcome them or ignore them like a crying baby, you should listen to it. It needs something. And so you should address it. You should kind of ask that scared part of your psyche like, “Okay, what is it I’m scared of?” And to me it helps to do this in a journal. But again, it might just help to talk this out with a friend or just lay there and think, but to address those fears, to say, “Okay, I’m worried that I’m not going to be able to stand up and give this presentation or I’m going to look like a fool or something like that.” I think, “Okay, well, how can I address that fear? I can practice harder. I can practice that speech to all my friends. I can maybe even hire a speech coach. I could go to a upwork.com and hire somebody for $30 that can be a speech coach, that can listen to my presentation and give me some tips. Then I can apply those tips. Then I can try it on some other friends.”
Derek Sivers
And you know what. That’s a few more hours of work. But then that fear is gone. You’re like, you know what the speech coach told me? It was really good. My friends told me it was really good. I made some improvements. I’m not scared of that anymore. I’m feeling okay about giving that speech. You say, “Okay, what else am I scared of”? Like, okay, “Well, I’m scared that they just won’t like it or I’m scared that that this thing will be a disaster or nobody will buy what I’m selling.” You think, “Okay, well, so what if that happens?” You could just start to think of the whole thing as like a to do list. Instead of needing to ignore it, you just need to do the things that your fear is telling you it’s scared of. Or help yourself get into a different mindset where you see failure, for example. As it would you say, like we lost the battle, but we won the war. You know the difference between the long game and the short game? If the short game is like the battle of the day and the war, that’s what a terrible metaphor to use right now, anyway. So sorry. Suddenly flashes of Israel in my head. Okay, never mind that metaphor.
Derek Sivers
But when you fail at something, it’s not really failure until you give up. Or until you decide to quit. And I know that’s like a self-help cliché. But I think of this all the time with the different things that I try to do. I do get worried about failing. And then I realize like, okay, so maybe I put out a new web app into the world and nobody wants it. I’m like, “Okay, well then I just get feedback that the world doesn’t want that web app. Whatever. It’s not the end of the world. It’s just one thing. It’s like one attempt.” Songwriters have this. I mean, oh my God, Carlos, stand up comics have 100 different ideas and they go on stage and they try things, and some of them are even like jokes that they swear are going to work. They just like, got a great feeling about it. And over and over and over again they try it on an audience that just kind of goes like, you know, sips their drink and is not interested. So I think it’s the same thing in any business. You try things, they don’t work, you can’t take it personally. Anyway, but sorry. The real point is don’t get over your fears. Pay attention to them. They’re usually telling you something important. I think more people should heed their fears.
Melissa
Okay. Thank you.
Engers
Okay. I know we’re about to close in time, and I think, uh.
Engers
This book “Hell Yeah or No”. That was worth doing. I know you declare “How to Live” your masterpiece. And my favorite is “Anything You Want”. But the book that I constantly I have to revisit from time to time is this one for myself personally, the whole yeaH or no. Can I have first, if you can tell us how this book started? And then my question around this book is me in the year and a few months that I’ve been kind of going back and forth with you. I know you don’t do anything that actually you don’t think was worth doing. I’m curious, what makes you think that these two hours with us was worth doing before taking the leap?
Derek Sivers
You’re an interesting dude doing something different. I get a lot of emails from a lot of strangers, and you are a very unique dude. You and I have traded maybe 50, 60, 70 emails in the past year and a half. You asked me to do some things that nobody’s ever asked me to do. I specifically went and signed my name. How many times? How many pages did I send you?
Engers
Almost 200.
Derek Sivers
I signed my name 200 times with a Sharpie because you asked me to. And you were willing to pay the postage cost from New Zealand to Florida for those 200 pages. You’re just a really unique, interesting dude that I’ve learned I like unique, interesting people because, again, it seems to imply a thoughtfulness of not just doing what everybody else is doing. But looking at what you want to exist and making it happen, doing it your own way, doing it the way that you think is best. Not just because SEO says this and this influencer says that, and therefore I’m going to do such. You’re doing your own thing. And I really admire that.
Engers
Thank you for that. And I will take that. And I’m going to tell my wife. I got this compliment. How the book came about. That’s very interesting, for me it’s one of the most interesting books, and I can tell for Carlos Sanchez also, the way he did the introduction for you. It resonated with him also, and many other people like they call it inside--. Just so you know, inside the Brew and Books, they call it the Yellow Book.
Derek Sivers
Nice.
Engers
So we already know what the Yellow Book is about. So how that book came about before we let you go.
Derek Sivers
That’s not an interesting story. I’ll tell it, but I’m going to tell you in advance the story is only a miniature. So instead, I’ve got a few more minutes. I’m actually meeting somebody for lunch in 15 minutes, but it only takes five minutes to get there, so I’ve got about ten more minutes. If anybody else here, if you’ve got a lingering question that you haven’t asked yet, somebody who hasn’t asked any question yet, if you’ve got anything, think of it now. Ask it in a minute and I’ll tell you my little one minute story of “Hell Yeah or No So it’s actually the same story for both my purple and yellow book. God, actually, my first three books. The white one. The purple one. The yellow one. So Anything You Want, Your Music and People and Hell Yeah or NO, all three of those were really just a compilation of individual articles that I had already put onto my website over the years. And then I realized later there was a theme. So the purple book called Your Music and People was just for years and years and years. I was just sharing the best advice I could to musicians saying, “Look, I was a musician for 15 years. Now that I’m running the CD selling business, I’ve seen what works and doesn’t work for people. Let me share with you everything I’ve learned about getting your music to people.” And then with Hell Yeah or No, I’d written so much about the general theme of what’s worth doing and fixing faulty thinking, because it’s kind of related. And I realized so many of my articles had that theme that I just put them together into a book, and it was quite effortless.
Derek Sivers
But the lesson is for anybody here who’s thinking of writing your own book someday, and I highly recommend it. It’s a fascinating process. I highly recommend not thinking of it as one big book, but make each individual chapter its own stand alone article that people would be thrilled to just share with their friends. Just that one article and every chapter could be like that. Each chapter can be one little idea that gets its own chapter. Instead of burying ideas on page 280 deep into chapter 19. Almost nobody will see that unfortunately. But if you keep each idea into its own individual chapter and think of them as articles, and perhaps even write them as articles to test them on the world, to make sure that each idea is hitting your audience correctly, that they’ve understood it, and then you can put them all together. And surprise, surprise, you just finished a book. So that’s how I did Hell Yeah or No and Your Music and People and I highly recommend that process to anyone. So even for my next book called Useful Not True, honestly, I didn’t follow that advice. I was kind of falling down the rabbit hole of I had so much to say on this subject that I was overwhelming myself and writing too much, too long, feeling like, “Oh God, this is crap. Nobody wants to read this. It’s too many words.”
Derek Sivers
And then just about a month ago. I’ll admit, I kind of found my voice again. I started from scratch. I started a new document with nothing in it. None of my previous bajillion words and I went, “Chapter one, Useful Not True. Here’s my definition of true. Here’s why it matters. Here’s my definition of useful. Here’s why that matters. Here’s the five things I want you to learn from this book.” And it was one page and I went, “Yeah.” It was like, “Chapter two. What time is it?” And I told this cute little story in chapter two. I was like, “There we go. Like, now, now these little ideas are standing on their own. That feels so much better.” So anyway, yes, I highly recommend anybody here who’s writing a book. Write each chapter as little stand alone ideas. Every idea gets its own little chapter and should just be a few pages long. I know it’s only one way of doing it, but consider it okay. Anyway, that’s the end of that story about that. But any other anybody who’s here that hasn’t asked anything yet, I think.
Engers
I think we have Luis.
Carlos
Luis Manuel, quick question.
Luis
I am very curious about something you said earlier that you write for an hour in a journal every day. And what is it for? Books or something? You’re very rare. I never write anything on a journal. Oh, man.
Derek Sivers
Oh man. It’s everything. Shit. I don’t know how personal they get. I mean, you know--.
Luis
Something from previous days. Something from the future. Ideas for the books. Both.
Derek Sivers
Both.
Luis
I’m just thinking about. Because I never know what to write.
Derek Sivers
Oh, no, it’s. It’s just--.
Luis
Like people give me journals every year and I throw them away.
Derek Sivers
Okay. For one, I don’t use paper journals either. I type so much faster than I handwrite that. To me, this just feels better. It’s just like brain to fingers. But for some people, they really like the handwriting. So whatever works for you. And if it doesn’t work for you, don’t feel bad about that. For me, it’s just everything. Like yesterday, I think I was writing for about three hours. Just private. And I can tell you the general subject. My New Zealand accountant told me that my taxes could be much lower if I were to restructure my business in such a way, but it was like a way that I’d never considered. And it would mean a real change of the way that I think about things. And so I think I spent at least an hour just thinking about that, like I just write something.
Luis
But you use it afterwards or you just leave it there.
Derek Sivers
I use it so I’ll answer the first part of the question first, and then I’ll come back to a real usage example. This is something I didn’t start doing until I was okay. Wait. So sorry. First, one at a time. Especially when I’m not sure what my thoughts are about something, that’s the main time to turn to my journal. If I’m upset about something and I don’t know why. If I’m confused about something, if I’m trying to make a decision, I’m just in there. I’m just writing down every single thought. And that isn’t about using it later. That’s about the good process of asking yourself questions. Answering those questions and then questioning your answers. So you might say, “I want to leave New Zealand. I want to leave where I live. Why do I want to leave? Because I think there would be opportunities somewhere else. Why do I think there would be opportunities somewhere else? Because there are more jobs there. Do I need to be there to get a job? Did we learn nothing from 2021? We don’t have to be in that place.” Like you can start to challenge your own thoughts. Even things like I’m still mad at this person who wronged me. And you say, “Well, why am I mad about that? Because they did this and that. Should they have acted differently? Did they actually do wrong or from their point of view were they doing the right thing? What was their point of view that made them feel they were doing the right thing? Why are people like that anyway?” You know, like it helps you sort out your own thoughts on a thing.
Derek Sivers
And I think it brings more inner peace and also helps you think of things from another point point of view. It’s actually a lot of what my next book, Useful Not True, is about, is to force yourself to consider other points of view. We’ve all got the default one. You know, the emotional instinct that your brain immediately goes, “Hey, you’re an asshole and I’m a good person. You’re wrong and I’m right.” And it takes wisdom and further thoughts to go, “Okay, hold on. Maybe I was wrong and that person was right. I don’t think so. But I’m going to force myself to consider that option. Okay, let me consider another option. Maybe we were both wrong. Maybe.” So it’s forcing yourself to consider other points of view. That’s a lot of what I do in my journal writing. Now, a quick story about using it later. I usually don’t go back to it later. But oh my God it just made a huge difference in my life 13 months ago, because 13 months ago I broke up with my girlfriend of two years. And I’m so glad I did. But here’s how the journal helped. I’m a positive person. And so now I’m like an optimist, right? I’m always trying to look at the bright side of things. And so we’d been together for two years and it was great at first, and it was getting worse and worse and worse.
Derek Sivers
But at every point I kept telling myself, “No, no, no. She’s a really good person. We have a really good relationship. We just have to work on this thing. Maybe if we just improve this thing, or maybe I can make this little compromise and be okay with this thing.” And then about 13 months ago, things got really bad. And I just told her, like, “I need to go away for a few days, I need a few days to myself.” So I just grabbed my computer, hopped in the car, and just honestly just went two hours up the road and got an Airbnb. But I just spent a few days to myself and here’s what I did, I went and reread every single page of my diary from the day I had met her. And the diary tells the truth because I write it the same day it happens. Even though my memory was like positive, nostalgic remembering things good. I looked at my diary and almost every day with her, even since the beginning had been bad and I had just remembered it as good. So once I was able to look at my diary and go, “Oh my God, it’s always been hard. It’s not getting better.” I was like, “Wow, okay, I need to break up.” And I was like, “God, thank you, diary.” Like, thanks for thanks for being a record of the truth because our memories suck.
Luis
That’s great.
Engers
Kill emotion. So, Derek, I know you’re hungry.
Derek Sivers
Oh, I got to go. Sorry, guys. Hey, you know what I’m going to say next probably is obviously, you’ve heard the stories. If you and I haven’t emailed, you can tell that I actually really, really like emails. Maybe because I don’t do social media. My inbox, I give it my proper attention. So anybody here? If you haven’t emailed me before, please email me and say hello. I actually really like being in touch with people around the world. It’s one of my favorite things. It’s actually the other reason why I do any podcasts at all are just to meet the people that contact me after listening to it. So everybody here, please go to my website and send me an email and say hello.
Engers
Thank you so much, Derek, for being here. I know you have another commitment. This was awesome. It was way better than what we planned. Like we destroyed the agenda. We destroyed the agenda. So which is what we always, always do. So thank you so much. Thank you every all the Brews and Books participating here. Thank you Carlos Sanchez for for being here and inviting Luis. Also I’m going to be putting in the chat I already did, Derek’s website. Go there, go to contact information. And that’s how you can get in touch with him by writing email. This was another success of Brews and Books events. Guys, thank you so much. I’m going to be sending you the emails for those that didn’t receive the books as part of the event. So I will be sending you an email with the little survey and the address so we can send you the books from their receivers. That includes the PDF and the audio.