Flamingo Sundays
host: Jack Henderson
writing process for “Useful Not True” pragmatism vs. nihilism, impact of upbringing on success, decentralization and social media absence
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Transcript:
Jack
In a world where 99% of people are desperately trying to fit in, the 1% understand that success is found when you stand out from the crowd. I'm Jack Henderson, and this is the Flamingo Sunday's podcast. If you're looking for the 99%, you're in the wrong place. We're here, we're here mate. Welcome to the Flamingo Sundays podcast.
Derek Sivers
Thank you. And I like that we started clean. So you know audience, if you're listening, we were chatting for a second. And sometimes when you're on a podcast, you're just having this little like nonsense banter. And then the host goes, oh yeah, we've begun. And you go, oh crap.
Jack
So Derek, the, uh, I guess what's brought us to be chatting today is you did a very profound talk at a, at an event I was at about a month, six weeks ago. And, uh, and it's something I've thought about literally every single day since that talk. And I was like, I know you said it was very hard to get you to talk, but I'll. I'll shoot, shoot my shot and send an email and see what we can do. And here we are.
Derek Sivers
I it meant a lot to me that it meant a lot to you, because I've been writing this book for two years called useful, Not True, and I've been writing it kind of in secret. It's something I hadn't done before. Usually I'm very open and I share everything I'm writing as I go. This is my first time. I just I wasn't sure what I wanted to say yet, so I wanted to keep it to myself. And so coming to Australia, to Noosa and giving that talk was the first time that anybody had heard this. So, um, it means a lot to me that it reached you like that.
Jack
Well, more people definitely need to hear it, that's for sure. Um, how did, uh, how did it come about for you to, I guess, have the thought process and, uh, and, um, think about writing the book that you ended up writing because you've obviously got a lot of books. I've, I've since read a few more that you've written. Um, but it's obviously been a process for you to, to go through book by book and obviously write the different books to then end up writing the book. Useful? Not true. Which is obviously how I first come about you.
Derek Sivers
Yeah. Um, for years I've had beliefs that I choose for deliberate reasons, to help counteract a bias. So, for example, I found myself thinking that men and women are really, really different. Completely different. And then I heard a good argument that the difference among men and the differences among women are much greater than the differences between men and women in general. And after hearing that, I thought, hmm, I think I need to correct my belief. So I'm just going to assume that men and women are exactly the same. That's my new belief. Men and women are the same. And when I posted that publicly somewhere, somebody argued back saying, no, they're not exactly the same. And I said, I know they're not, but I'm just trying to counterbalance my bias. I'm choosing to believe they're the same. As a way of kind of Curving into the target. And they said, what do you mean, curving into the target? I said, well, think about when you're playing frisbee or bowling and you're aiming for the center. You know, you're trying to throw the Frisbee right to your friend, but it keeps curving to the left, or you're trying to roll the ball to the middle pin, but it keeps curving. So what you do is you do something that feels odd, which is you start aiming to the side, knowing that it's going to curve back into the middle. And I think of that with our thoughts that sometimes we have to deliberately choose a belief to help counteract our bias. So in that case, you know, choosing to believe that men and women are exactly the same. That was an example. And but again, somebody would push back and say, but that's not true.
Derek Sivers
I'd say, well, I don't care if it's not true. It's useful. I choose thoughts because they're useful, not true. And this was an underlying theme behind a lot of the way, I think for years. And after I finished my last book called How to Live. I had a brief time where I wasn't writing anything. Then I thought, I think it's time to write about useful. Not true. But in this case, I actually didn't know what I wanted to say. I thought, like, there's a little germ of an idea here, but I don't know why I think this way. And I'm sure that smarter philosophers have already thought this through. So I ended up contacting a philosophy professor and asking her, like, hey, here's this rough idea. Like, what is this called? Who else has talked about this? And she said, oh, that's pragmatism. And so I looked into pragmatism. I read five books about pragmatism. And I was like, well, it's kind of pragmatism, but not really. And then I learned about nihilism, and I was like, okay, it's kind of nihilism because I don't think anything has any inherent meaning, but it's not quite nihilism. And so then there's, um, skepticism. Uh, and I learned about skepticism. So I was kind of like learning around this subject. And so of course, I was raised with no religion. And so I had to learn about religions. So I went and read like ten books on religion, and I read the Bible for the first time and all this stuff, just to try to learn more about this subject of beliefs that are useful. Not true. So here we are.
Jack
But as you were talking about it on on stage, you were using some incredible examples. And I remember one of the, the examples I think was around about when you started the talk, you asked the crowd what time was it? And uh, and, you know, everyone had their own little answer. Some someone said, oh, the time is now, and someone said, the actual time and blah, blah, blah. And then you said, well, something along the lines of not, uh, not, not word for word, but or something along the lines of if I asked the same question in the other side of the world right now, those people would have a different answer, but they would believe that answer is factually true, because it's true for them in wherever they are in the world. And that was the, uh, that was the thing that then got me thinking about so many things. And there was something super funny that you, uh, you said and it was, it was we thought a story that you told was true as you went through the talk. And then at the end of the talk, you you said, ah, that's that's not actually true. Um, but the whole premise around all the, all the things that we walk around in our lives thinking that are actually factually true when the reality is they're not factually true because someone else has a different truth around that. They're just beliefs. Um, it's such a it's such a I think it's a thing that holds a lot of people back. I know for myself, I constantly question myself. Like is the thing that I'm choosing to believe, um, actually serving me now? Or is it just because I've got some limiting belief or some past experience in my life that's now shaped the way that I'm choosing to believe that?
Derek Sivers
Right? Yeah. Um, by the way, I'm super honored that you remember the what time is it? Story. Because that's the first chapter of the book. That's the opening, you know, welcome to useful. Not true. What time is it? And it says for who? You? Because that's not the time for most of the world right now. And then even, like, what day is it? Well, I don't know. Down here in New Zealand it's Tuesday, but in the US it's still Monday and same with seasons and all of that. It's kind of nice being down Under, right where we get a healthy perspective on seasons. Everybody just assumes July is hot and Christmas is snowy. But you know, down here we know that Santa wears gumboots. Um, but anyway, um, yeah, it's a good metaphor for, um, realizing that everybody's speaking as if it's fact. And they say things like, you can't do that, or here's what women want. But even though they think it's a fact, they're not necessarily wrong. It's just not the only answer. Kind of like the time it's okay for you. You say it's 345, but you got to understand you're in Chicago. It's only 345 for your little niche. It's it's a nice metaphor for most of us. It's not 345 right now. So when you say you can't do that, well, for most of us, that's not true. And if you're saying it, maybe you're making it true for yourself. And then that's kind of the fucked up thing with the self fulfilling beliefs, right? Walking into a room and thinking everybody here is a potential friend makes it more likely to be true. Walking into a room thinking everybody here hates me also makes it more likely to be true. Um, you know, there are a lot of beliefs that we hold like that.
Jack
It's I think what's so interesting is that, um, the the. You don't know what you don't know. I also think there was something else you spoke about in the talk is like the things that you don't know. And if you don't know this type of thing, you just think the belief, like you're saying that you have is the truth for everyone because we're like, oh, because, you know, our lives are the most important lives in the world, obviously, and everyone thinks the same as what we do. Um, but I think when you start catching these things, like, I would say 90% of what, uh, what I walk around in life every day and I don't know how many thoughts everyone has, but at some stupid amount, um, a lot of them are not actually fact. And I think if you catch yourself on those thoughts and go, well, if I chose to believe x, y, and z as opposed to the alternative, what would that then do to my outlook and perspective on life? Um, especially in business, if you reflect back because you are a super successful entrepreneur, you've sold a company, you're doing incredible work now, um, that that was early 2000. That happened. Is that right?
Derek Sivers
Yeah. I mean, yeah, I, I had my company from 97 through 2008.
Jack
And you look now 14, 15, 16 years on from now, um, is is the thing we're talking about right now, something that you were thinking about back when you were growing the company?
Derek Sivers
Yeah. I think the seed of this idea got into my head from Tony Robbins, actually way back in 1989, when I was a teenager. I read, uh, Tony Robbins Awaken the Giant Within. And in that book, he talks about this kind of thing a lot. So. God. Teenage years are so good for that. You're so shaping how you see the world. And so if you hear something like that in your teenage years, it just becomes how you see the world. Well, kind of like parents who raise their kids with religion and they're told, you know, stories of what happened 2000 years ago and they just take it as truth and fact, and that's that. That's how the world works. That's how it is. And maybe 30 years later, they have to go, oh, wait, come to think of it, that's kind of fucked up. Um, so I think these ideas from Tony Robbins got into my head in some founding teenage years, and it was only decades later I went back and looked at them and went, huh? I guess that's why I think this way. Like, I went back and read the book 30 years later, right? I was like, wow, okay, I guess I got a lot of this thinking habits from that book.
Jack
And those thinking habits, do you think they've had a more positive, um, I guess, or had more of a positive effect on your life throughout it? Or do you think it's made life more challenging because you question everything that, uh.
Derek Sivers
Oh no no, no. The questioning takes no, no, that's no stress at all. I highly recommend this. No, I think there's no downside to thinking this way. Uh, except you might get ostracized a little bit by, uh, people who swear that you need to agree with their truth, but, um. But no, think about think about realizing that a lot of norms and rules and restrictions aren't true. Um, you know, actually, let me let me actually go a few years back before I read that Tony Robbins book, um, my music teacher, when I was 17 years old and I was about to go off to college, uh, I went to a music university called Berklee College of Music, and just a couple of months before I was about to go, I met somebody that used to teach there, and he said, you know, it's a four year college, but I think you can graduate in two years, uh, instead of four. Let me show you how. And since he used to teach there, he showed me. He's like, all right, here's what you're going to do. You're going to get the books for the required courses. Go through the books yourself, and then go to the department head and say that you want to take the final exam. If you take the final exam, you get credit for the course, and then you're going to do this. Um, I'm going to teach you four semesters of jazz harmony in the next two days.
Derek Sivers
It's really easier than they make it out to be. And he said the key line is he said the standard pace is for chumps. He said classrooms need to go at the pace of the slowest student so that nobody gets left behind. But he said if you have any ambition at all, you can do this stuff ten times faster than the way they do it. He said, so don't settle for the standard pace. Don't let them tell you it's going to take four years to graduate. You can do it in two years. And I did. I graduated in two and a half years. And, um, it was really just thanks to him. So that's that was, you know, I was only 17 years old. And that was a good foundational way of saying like, just because the rule makers tell you that this is how it needs to be, doesn't mean that that's how it needs to be. These things are all negotiable. Um, and yeah, and again, I read a book called You Can Negotiate Anything by Herb Cohen. That was brilliant. Brilliant little book that just makes you challenge everything. I mean, starting with the price. When something says, all right, this costs $28. Well, that's, you know, that's an arbitrary number that you picked. I'm going to say that that's I'm going to think it's actually worth $18. Um, hell, you're in real estate, you know. Um, so, uh.
Jack
What's what's the value of your home worth? Right, right, right.
Derek Sivers
Whatever. Whatever. Somebody's willing to pay for it. Um, so all of these things kind of add up. I think the they're extremely practical applications to the belief that nothing is necessarily true.
Jack
And if you were to look at your your life now or reflect back on your your life to date. Um, are there certain beliefs around certain elements of your life, whether it's health, whether it's business, whatever it is, religion, spirituality that, uh, that you feel, um, by having that framework around how to think about things has made, you know, the biggest impact, for example. Um, I think you said something on the on the talk. No, no, I think I know, actually, you said something around the $10 million thing, right? Like $10 million to each individual person has a different meaning. Um, if you choose to believe certain things about money, you're probably going to have a better, better outlook for your financial life. Whereas if you choose to believe that money is the root of all evil and, you know, people who have money are evil, you're probably probably not going to have heaps of heaps of financial abundance. So is there things like that where you've you've you've reflected back and gone? Well, that's funny that my life's turned out like that because my belief was X, Y and Z at the time.
Derek Sivers
Yeah, I think it's. Have you heard the saying that fish don't know they're in water?
Jack
Um, I have. Yeah.
Derek Sivers
That if you're just surrounded by it, you almost are unaware of it. So I think I've been in this way of thinking for so long that I'm almost unaware of it. But yeah, all of my attitudes towards everything are mostly deliberately chosen now. Maybe it's like, of course we all have certain beliefs just from the culture we grow up in and our parents and our friends and whatever media we take in influences how we think. But then slowly you question them, especially when you notice that something's holding you back here. Let's take it to a fun one. Um, wait, so check. How old are you now?
Jack
27.
Derek Sivers
Okay. I grew up at a time where the movie There's Something About Mary was like a big number one hit that everybody saw. And there's a, um, in that movie, for example. And in lots of movies in that era, there was this pretty blatant message that sex is something that men want and women reluctantly give. And I accidentally adopted that belief for, like, all these years, like, all the way from teenage years through seriously, just about like, I don't know, five years ago until I realized that. That's bullshit. And where did I start thinking that? Why? And I was like, oh, man, I really think it came from these movies that I saw at an influential age. And I look back at these, like, decades that I regret now because I held this limiting belief. And I think it's the same with anything. Like, we can start to notice things that are holding you back from your happiness or flourishing or whatever you want to call it. Um, and you can start to question them, like, why do I think Sydney's a bad place to do such and such? Why do I think that everything would be better in Europe? Why do I think that, uh, I need to do such and such? Or why do I think that these people are good and those people are bad? Where do I get that from, huh? You know, you can just start to question these things and then realize that nothing, none of it's true anyways. You can just deliberately choose whatever belief works better for you.
Jack
And just on that piece, have you got, you know, for example, that that that belief that you had around women and how they perceive sex? How did you then change the frame of then how you looked at it? Like, no women, probably just like men love sex. Some women don't like it, and also some men don't like it. So like, how do you change the frame when, like you said, if you grow up, where in your household Jesus is Jesus and you know that this is what happened in the past life to change, that would be quite challenging, right? Or if like you grow up in a household that's poor, to change your mindset around that. Well, you know, money is not this. Or if you grow up, whatever it is, health and fitness, it's not as important. Like how do you then go this way? That I'm thinking is the thing that is wrong, not the thing that I'm thinking about. Um, how do you then shift that? That thing is like a thing that takes time.
Derek Sivers
I love that you're asking this, um, because I'm, like, 99% of the way done with the book, and you're making me realize I should address this in the book. Um, so, uh, credit to Jack. Um.
Jack
Thank you. I'll take it.
Derek Sivers
Um. You've heard I don't remember the name of this thing, but, like, if you decide to buy a Toyota, suddenly you start noticing that Toyota everywhere. There's. I forget what that's.
Jack
Called information bias sort of thing.
Derek Sivers
Something like that. Reticular activating system there. I think various names for this thing where once something's on your mind, You start seeing it everywhere. And it's the same thing with choosing a belief that we can find evidence to support any angle we want to take. If you decide that people are bad, you can find plenty of evidence that people are bad and in fact, it will feel like definitive proof. And if you decide that people are good, you will find definitive proof of that. Um, and in every nuance in between. Uh, so in this case, since you're asking since I brought it up, I just had to go through and replay my history going, oh, whoa, I can't like, oh my God. Thinking back about that, uh, philosophy professor now. Oh, wow. Thinking back to, you know, that ex of mine. Wow. Why did I behave that way? Huh? And I just kind of replay it again through this new lens. A little bit like movies do, right? Sometimes you're watching a movie, and some information that wasn't revealed at the beginning is revealed later in the movie. And then you go, whoa! And you watch the movie a second time and go, oh, it was there all along. But now that I know this thing, I can see all these scenes through the new light. We can do that with our own memory, our own past. We can find enough confirmation, and then it's just a matter of focusing on it and saying, all right, that's I see them everywhere. Now. I see evidence of this everywhere. Now this is this is enough for me to stand on, to believe it.
Jack
So it's something that you work at essentially like any habit as such. Yeah.
Derek Sivers
Oh, definitely. Yeah. I journal a lot. Um, in fact. So when I saw you in Noosa and gave that talk on stage, the book has five sections. I basically just did the first three sections on stage. Um, but one of the main points of the last section is to say that. All right. So how do we adopt a belief that you've identified, uh, personally, I'd love to hear your take on this, but personally, I find that journaling is the key for me, and whether that's handwriting or typing or even just talking. Um, I know some people even have like a voice journal. They just, like, record themselves speaking into their phone or recorder or something. Um, something where you can work through your thoughts and stack up evidence and even hear yourself saying something. It's entirely private. It's something where you just kind of pour your thoughts and you can work through ideas. Some people even do it in conversation with their friends that, um, if you're a little more social and extroverted, then maybe what works best for you is whenever something's troubling you or you want to change your mind on something, you call up a friend and whether it's on the phone or over drinks or whatever. Um, you talk it through and your friend challenges you on some of the things you're saying and makes you question it, and then you stack up evidence and to make another case, and you just kind of give yourself enough, uh, proof to support this. You talk it through thinking of the implications, right? So, okay, if this is true and we could talk about the pretend I'm talking about sex or anything else you want to believe, say, like, you know, thoughts about money or whatever, you could say.
Derek Sivers
Therefore, if this is true, what else does this implicate in my life? Or what are the other results of this? Or how does this change things? And the more you describe this new world where you're going to adopt this belief, and this is how you're choosing to see things, the more you stack up of that, like the more real and solid it feels like, all right, this is the way I'm seeing it now. You know, like I've heard some people choose deliberate beliefs about money to say that there's billions of dollars out there just waiting for me, and it just wants it wants me to come claim it. I just got to come find it. You know, billions of dollars are just sitting there in people's bank accounts doing nothing and they want. They'd rather it give them joy. So I'm going to be the one to come help give them joy in return for their billions or whatever. You know, people stack up these deliberate beliefs and they just find reasons and evidence to believe this. And there you go. This becomes their full reality and they go embody it. And what blows my mind is that people actually then make it happen, that people just choose to adopt a certain stance, like certain like super friendly social people that just decide that everybody's a potential friend and even the most despicable character. They can find something good in them, and they can befriend somebody else, somebody that you and I and I and somebody else might find despicable. They can find something good in them, and it's just an outlook that becomes self-fulfilling.
Jack
It's so true. And then the actions often follow the way that you believe, right? Like I've gotten heavily into running in, uh, in recent times, simply due to all of the people that I've seen in, uh, in my past that have been really good runners and, um, you know, athletes essentially. And you want to be similar to those people. So you're like, oh, well, the starting point is I'll go and start running. And by running and doing these long runs and building the discipline, your belief system, then, you know, obviously adapts to that and vice versa. Um, you mentioned something before around you reflected back on all the past experiences you've had in your life around that certain topic. But then something you mentioned, I think, in the talk was around a study that someone did around. Was it was it nine over 11 or a major event? Oh yeah, in the US. And uh, and I thought that was so fascinating because only about six months prior you mentioned Tony Robbins. Also, I went to my first ever Tony Robbins event just to get an understanding of like, what this cult essentially was, was all about, as I've heard people describe it before. And something he said was was often our brains do three things. They distract, they distort, and, uh, whatever the third one was another day anyway. Destroy. Destroy. Yeah. That's right. And and the thing that you mentioned around that, that, uh, that classroom that that guy did the, the, the, uh, essentially study on was like, our brains often distort the reality of our past. We think something different to what the actual reality was at the time. So can you unpack that a little bit? Because I thought it was super fascinating. Well, first.
Derek Sivers
I'll just tell the tiny story. Um, it wasn't nine over 11. It was actually, uh, late 80s. The space shuttle exploded. It had a crew of seven that were. Some of them were not previous astronauts. It was the first time trying to send up, like Non-astronauts into space. And the crew of seven exploded just a minute after liftoff. And it was a big deal at the time. And everybody stopped what they were doing and everybody tuned to the TV. But it was like 1130 on a weekday in America. So a freshman high school psychology teacher gave his class a questionnaire asking three questions. You know, just moments earlier when you heard the news, what were you doing? Where were you? What were you doing and who were you with? And then he collected all the answers and saved it for the sake of what comes next, which was three years later. He knew he would have those same students senior year. So senior year he went back to those same students, gave them the same questionnaire. Hey, three years ago when you found out the space shuttle exploded. Where were you? What were you doing and who were you with? Everybody answered anew. And then afterwards he asked them, how confident are you in your answers? And almost everybody said, 100%. Then he showed them their original answers from three years ago, and nobody got all three, right? Everybody got at least some of their facts wrong, which is just amazing because it was only three years and it was them at the same school.
Derek Sivers
And if even that is wrong, it's a beautiful example of how faulty our memory is. Um, a tiny little example. There's a book called Island by Aldous Huxley that changed my life. There was a certain passage in that book that while some students are mountain climbing, one of the teachers says, you know, we find it best to change jobs every two years. And I had been working in my job for two years. At that point, when I read that book, I was like, you know what? They're right. I've been working at this job for two years. It's time to quit. That was 1992, and I went back now in 2023 last year to and I bought the book Island again. And I went to go find that passage. And it's not in there. It's nowhere. I couldn't believe it. I went through every sentence of that book and I can't find it. It seems to not be in there. Did I just imagine that whole thing that like, that sentence changed my life? But that sentence doesn't exist. What the fuck? And there's so many things like that that, um, we just don't usually get called out on them so badly.
Jack
But where did that sentence come from? You still don't know?
Derek Sivers
I don't know, I mean, I think it was from that book. Maybe I misinterpreted, maybe I like, took a spin on it. Or maybe it was like they said something else that made me go, yeah, I should change jobs every two years, I don't know, but, uh, but again, this gets back to useful. Not true. The title, which is oh, well, so maybe it wasn't true, but is it useful to you? Yeah, it was completely useful. Even if it wasn't true, it wasn't actually there. So you have to ask yourself that about everything, which now we're getting into the era of deepfakes and such, that it's going to be almost indistinguishable to tell fact from reality through the media. Unless you're standing physically right in front of the president, you know, you're going to see recordings that, uh, world leaders are saying, and you won't know if that's true or not. Uh, and so with each thing, you're going to have to ask yourself, well, is it useful? Because there's no way to know if it's true or not. So I think it's kind of the same thing with our memories like, or our perspective on anything. You know, I think that person wronged me. Well, it might or might not be true. Is it useful to think that they wronged you. Maybe not. So that's the real question to ask yourself.
Jack
So instead of trying to find out what's factual or what we believe to be factual, you want to put the spin on that. To go, well, is the thing that I'm thinking or trying to believe actually going to get me to where I want to be in my life, or is it going to hold me back?
Derek Sivers
I added just yesterday a new first sentence to the book which says like this is personal and pragmatic, not universal and dogmatic meaning. So it's like this whole idea of like what's true that's trying to that's trying to find out like what's true for everybody universally. And and then if you're taking that stance on a moral issue, well, now you're trying to be dogmatic and universal to kind of project a moral stance onto the whole world. And instead you can just let go of that whole approach and say, All I need to know is what's personally pragmatic for me.
Jack
On on that topic. So like if you look at, um, I'm just trying to think of an example. Let's hypothetically say someone has a has a tough or what they believe to be a tough upbringing. You know, they had parents that weren't around or a father or mother that wasn't around. They, you know, didn't have a lot of friends at school, whatever it is. And, um, they get into their adolescence and into their, into their 20s, and all of a sudden they then use that as the reason or the belief as to why they can't do X, Y and Z or why their life turned out the way that it is. Actually, I'll put one more spin on this. I actually heard a I don't know if it's a true story or not, but it was two kids brought up by an alcoholic father. Um, have you heard this one? As I go through life, I've heard this.
Derek Sivers
Yes. And twin brothers or something, right?
Jack
Yeah. That's right. And they get to a certain point in their life, and one of them turns out to be this ultra successful person and, you know, has a great life and all the rest of it. And and the other one turns out also to be an alcoholic. And the life's in ruins. And they will both ask the question, how did you turn out like this? And their answers were the same because my father was an alcoholic.
Derek Sivers
Apparently they said the exact same phrase when asked, which was well, with a father like mine, I can't see how it would have been any other way. Or something like that. Or with a father like mine. What did you expect? But they both said that, so it's like the one sitting in jail is like, well, with it. I had an abusive, alcoholic father. What do you expect? But then the one that was like he was a successful lawyer and he's like, yeah, well, with a bad father, what did you expect? I just had to go this path. I, you know, had to re propel myself away from that future. Um, that's a fun word. Propel. I've never used that before. Anyway, um, uh, I love that example. Yeah, because anytime somebody tells you that. Yeah. Well, you have it easy? No, I have it hard. And that's why. You know I can't. It's easy for you to say. It's like. Well, you're just choosing this perspective on your past. So your twin brother could have chosen the opposite perspective, and both of you would be right, you know? Oh, I.
Jack
Actually did a podcast. I was a guest on someone podcast the other day, and I had to I caught myself the other day. There's a, there's a guy that, um, I've never met him personally, but I admire what he's done. He's a guy by the name of Justin Hemmes. Incredible, um, publican and has done a lot in property as well. And I was listening to a podcast that he that he did or listened to a talk he did, and he was chatting through it and he was talking about his father. They come from quite a wealthy family. And, um, you know, his dad backed him into this deal. And straight away in my head I'm like, oh, yeah, of course, like he comes from a rich. He comes from a rich family. Of course. That's why he's, uh, he's been able to build what he's built, been able to build. And then I was like, wait a minute, motherfucker like that. That could have been the complete opposite, right? If you grow up with money and privilege, like, why would you even want to go out there and work You could have been out enjoying life and knowing that that everything was going to be okay. Um, so that was just something that I caught recently because it's like two beliefs, right? Like you often think, of course that's like that, right? Like, why wouldn't you be like that? Or you could choose the other belief is like, oh, you know, incredible. Because he could have gone down a completely down the path. Um, and I guess it relates back to those two, two brothers who one ended up being the successful lawyer and one ended up didn't. That's a real life example of choosing the belief system.
Derek Sivers
But then even with that, you have to ask yourself, if you get nerdy and analytical about this, like, why am I believing? Like, why do I think? Like, oh yeah, of course he comes from a rich background. Like, how is that belief serving me? Or how did that belief? What's appealing to me about that belief? Why did I why do I latch on to that way of looking at it? It's like, okay, because if I think that it gets me off the hook for if I'm not achieving as much as this person is, I can say, well, you know, that's why.
Jack
How do you break that down? Like because. Because that that's that's something I didn't do. I just caught myself like, no, that's not the right way to think because I just knew, I guess intrinsically, that it's not the right way to think about something. If you if you if you want to be a successful person, but then how do you break that down further, even just to do what you did there, which was like, hang on a minute, why do I think like that? Where did that come from? And what is this? What is this doing internally to serve me? Because what you just said is 100% right? Because it gets you off the hook essentially for not, uh, not doing what someone else has done.
Derek Sivers
Yeah, well, I'm I'm a journaling motherfucker. Yeah. I, uh, I just spent a lot of time asking myself these why questions. Uh, I just find it to be the best thing in my life. It's. It's completely shaped who I am. It's made me a better person, a better dad, a better everything is just stopping to ask why. There's that moment where it's like you choose your reaction to anything? I think that's like a common misconceptions. People think that you can't help the way you feel. I can't help the way I react. That person made me mad. That person made me quit the way I did. Uh, that person made me react. But no, no, no. You choose your reaction. Maybe not the first one. We have an instinctive, unconscious initial reaction to something, but you don't have to act on that one. You can take just a second and ask yourself, hold on, what's that about? Why we do that? How do I want to react? Okay, wait, this is what I need to do there. It's almost like the cliche of, you know, count to ten before you react. It's taking a second in between that initial emotional response. And then your actual conscious response, you get a little time in there at least a few seconds. But hopefully if you're not standing, uh, in person with a, uh, you know, gun in your face, you have a little longer where you can spend some time in a journal or thinking or writing or even talking with friends. As I said, then that's when you get to think this through and decide how you would like to respond to this or how you want to react. So you do choose your response for sure.
Jack
And I think the this is all a learned thing, right? Like have you outside of, I guess, more public figures like Tony Robbins, have you ever had mentors as such that have helped shape the way that you choose to think? I know if I look at my own life, if I chose to, you know, stay around the people that I grew up with and, and then go down that path, you'd actually I don't think I'd even be conscious of the fact that I wasn't thinking now, like the way that I think, because then I got, I got around different people. It opens your perspectives up. You then get to learn to think a different way, as opposed to not knowing what you don't know.
Derek Sivers
Right. That's a really good point, dude. Um, it definitely helps to separate yourself from your initial place of upbringing, because if you just stay right there, everything really can feel true. Like this is just the way it is. Like, yeah, I know there are some like Arabs and Chinese and Africans on the other side of the world, but I don't know, they're just weird. Here's the way that things really are. It can feel that way if you just stay there. I'm sorry. I'm doing, like, a little, uh. What am I doing? Like a little rose with my hands. Like you're in a little buttercup, you know? Like you're just kind of ensconced in your little buttercup where you grew up. Um. It's true.
Jack
Because if you look at people like. I mean, this is my belief, but if you look at, you know, 90% of the US population, 80% of the US population, like most people struggle, they probably don't. They probably don't enjoy a lot more days of their life than they enjoy days. So they've probably got a, you know, higher level of stress and, and, you know, a lack of fulfillment. Um, and it's the same in Australia, the same everywhere, I think, where if people actually knew how to get out of that rut or whatever they're in. Um, yeah. You know, I'd like to think that most people would choose to do that, but it's like they don't even know that they're the reason that they're in. That is because of the way that they're thinking. And then the actions that come off the back of it, and they just they're just stuck. I guess it's like, uh, you know, probably somehow relates to like, poverty and stuff, you know, like a lot of it's got to do with a lack of resource, but a lot of, a lot of it's got to do with they don't know any different. So it's just like, that's just the way it is. Yeah.
Derek Sivers
Let's, let's give a little credit to the.
Derek Sivers
The internet has helped a lot with that. I was just thinking of counterexamples where I do know some people that email me that are still living in their hometown in Bulgaria Or Russia or even India. But in their mind, they're like connecting with the the brightest thinkers in the world, and they're just using the internet. So even they're like, physically, they have to still be there in their parents house or whatever. Maybe they have a really bad passport and it's not so easy to just move to, you know, London. Uh.
Jack
That's true.
Derek Sivers
That's all right. Because they can they can get out through their mind and use the internet to connect with other like minded people around the world. So it's not just physical location. It does help to put yourself in the same place with a lot of other smart, ambitious, positive thinkers or or, let's just say people that you want to be more like.
Derek Sivers
Mhm.
Derek Sivers
It does help to be in the same physical space. But even without that, you know, some more and more of our lives are online now. So it's possible to do this from one physical location.
Jack
Like listening to this podcast. Right.
Derek Sivers
Yeah. Good example. Hey, why is it called Flamingo?
Jack
I wish I had a more incredible story, but, uh, it's, uh, it's pretty bland, to be honest. I was just in Europe when I was, um, I think I was 21 or 22, and, uh, I was drinking every day. Partying as you do, as a, as a 21, 22 year old in Europe for the first time. And I just happened to buy this wide brim, this wide brim hat that had flamingos on the brim. And, uh, every day I do an Instagram story. I'm like, oh, it's Flamingo Mondays, and I just be drinking piss and the next day would be the same, the next day would be the same. And then I come home from the trip and I don't know where the hat ended up, but it ended up home somewhere. Um, and then people would message me on Instagram like, hey, when's Flamingo Sundays coming back? Like, because it was a drinking thing. And then I just thought it was a funny thing. And then that's how the podcast came about. And now it's like scattered throughout our, uh, throughout our company. Our company mascot is hindering the property. Flamingo. Um, I've got a children's book called Hendra Ringo. And, uh, anyway, it's just it's just a funny thing. And now my premise of a flamingo is, um, I look at it like standing out from the crowd, you know? So I think a flamingo is so different to whether you have a bird. And if you if you're like a flamingo, then often you'll stand out. And people usually if they stand out in the right way, I feel like get further than people who sort of blend in and become part of the herd.
Derek Sivers
Nice. Do you know about the migration habits of flamingos from north India to southern Spain, and how that influenced flamenco music?
Jack
No, please tell me.
Derek Sivers
Oh, I don't know all the details, but flamenco music of southern Spain gets its name from flamingos, and it's apparently the kind of Roma people, uh, aka Gypsy. I think that's not. I think we're not supposed to say that anymore. But that's how I grew up. Like the people that were nomadic and traveled. Apparently, they would follow the migration patterns of the flamingos and going back and forth from northern India to southern Spain. That's what I heard once. And that's where flamenco gets its name. And that's how the music got influenced. And that's where the Roma people originated from. The migration habits of flamingos.
Jack
That fact right there. I'm going to obviously do a bit more research on it, because my voicemail on my phone every week I put a new flamingo fact. So when people call me when they've never called me before, they're like, who the fuck is this guy? So I'm going to look that up. And that's going to be my flamingo fact for this week. So that's inspired by Derek Sivers.
Derek Sivers
If you remember.
Derek Sivers
Tell me when you find the actually it was like something I read in a book like eight years ago that just kind of like faintly in my head. I was like, oh yeah, because like flamenco flamingo, the Roma's, the flamenco music. Anyway, um, yeah. If you find out the facts, let me know.
Derek Sivers
I'll send you.
Jack
One. I'll send you, I'll send you an email with, uh, with the link to my.
Derek Sivers
Voicemail for.
Derek Sivers
Flamenco Facts.
Derek Sivers
Yeah.
Jack
Derek, before we wrap up, conscious of time. Um, useful. Not true is the current book. You've got a lot of cracking books. Uh, what's the one with the yellow cover? Um, Damien from my team is currently reading it. Hell yeah.
Derek Sivers
Or no.
Jack
That's right. Hell yeah or no? That's. That's currently going around my office. Um, finally, like finishing words to to to leave on something, which I guess is around the premise of what we've been talking about around beliefs.
Derek Sivers
Um, you're.
Jack
Still writing the book. Okay.
Derek Sivers
It's actually just last night at midnight, I uploaded what might be the final version. Except now talking to you today, I'm like. I'm like, maybe there are a couple more things I need to add. Um, so you know what I'll just say for now, if you go to Singers.com, my last name s I v e r s.com. The book is actually available right now. I decided to open it up, uh, beta style so that I could start to get feedback. Yeah. So? So it's available right now. You get the e-book and audiobook, uh, right now, and then it'll take me a few more months to print it. But I am going to have a warehouse in Australia. Um, this time, uh.
Derek Sivers
No, it's.
Jack
And how come you don't? How come you don't really have social media? I'm curious about that.
Derek Sivers
Because I just don't like it.
Derek Sivers
Um, I, uh.
Derek Sivers
Somebody asked me that bluntly.
Derek Sivers
And, uh, and my blunt answer was that I got successful before before social media came out. So it's like by the time, like when Facebook came out for the first time in 2007, I created an account. And like instantly, I, I hit their 5000 friend limit and then, you know, created a second account that hit the 5000. I had a third account, I hit the 5000, and then I created a fourth account, and then they froze my account because they saw I had created four accounts like, but I've got, you know, 20,000 people want to be my friend. I don't know how to do this. It's like, and, uh, and it was before you could have like a fan page. So the only way to connect with people was as a friend. And I used, you know, so I used Facebook for a minute in 2007. Uh, I used Twitter for a minute in 2008 and nine. Um, and I just don't like them, and I just don't want anything from anybody. I'm at this point in my career where it's like, I don't want more fame. I don't want more money, I don't really want more anything. So I just don't want anything from social media. Um, my email inbox is so wonderful. Every day I get maybe 100 emails from people around the world that have found my books that are emailing me to connect, and then I have a direct one on one connection. I don't need to go through some third party to connect with people. Um, yeah. I just don't like it.
Jack
Um, it's powerful man, I like it. I really like that.
Derek Sivers
Yeah. I mean.
Jack
I guess if, uh, I guess if I'm just thinking about myself, I'm like, if I didn't need what comes off the back of social media, then I probably wouldn't have it either.
Derek Sivers
But exactly. Yeah, I just don't need it.
Jack
That's powerful. That's a powerful position to be in.
Derek Sivers
But, you know, it's a it's a choice.
Derek Sivers
Especially, you know, when I met you at the mastermind group, there were a lot of people making millions of dollars doing social media things, and I had to reconsider my beliefs for a second. And I just realized that I'm actually happy to make that trade. I realize that I could be a lot more famous and make a lot more money if I use social media, but I just don't want to. So I'm happy to have that trade off. I'm happy to. I have enough, you know, that's like an ongoing theme with me. You'll see in one of my other books. My first book called Anything You Want is that I when I sold my company for $22 million, I had this eight months to figure out, like, what the fuck am I going to do with $22 million? And I realized I just didn't want it. I just wanted to give it all away. Like I already had enough. I already had like $4 million in the bank, and that's all I wanted. I didn't want the 22, so I just I restructured the sale and I just gave it all directly to charity.
Derek Sivers
The 22 million never touched my hands. And, um, That just felt better. But it wasn't me being altruistic. I just realized that, like, 4 million is enough for me. That's. I don't want a Ferrari. I don't want a mansion. This is enough for the rest of my life. Uh, and if you've got too much and somebody else has not enough, well, then it's just rational to just, you know, if you've got too much food on your plate and somebody right next to you is hungry, you just share. That's what you do. To me, it was just rational, not like altruistic. I wasn't even going to tell anybody. It wasn't, um, something I was doing for the likes, you know, um, it was going to be a secret. But then somebody outed me in an interview once. But, uh, anyway. But I think the theme is just recognizing in yourself what's enough. So I have enough fame and enough money. I don't need to go do something I don't want to do just to get more. You know.
Derek Sivers
I like that we took.
Derek Sivers
This on a fun tangent. You were trying to say goodbye, and we started this.
Derek Sivers
No, no.
Jack
This is good. That was very, very good. Now I'll just be thinking about. Oh, maybe. Maybe I should stop doing this, maybe I should.
Derek Sivers
I mean, it's again it's.
Derek Sivers
It's for you right now. It's useful. And honestly, if I would have just started my career ten years later, I'd have a different approach to this. It's like I, you know, I've been online since 1994. I had, you know, a big audience by 2002, uh, you know, so all of this was Pre-social media, um, and, uh, yeah, it doesn't mean it's right or wrong. It's just for me. You got to like, again, it's not trying to be universal. It's not trying to say what's right for everybody. It's like, no, just for me, like, pragmatically, just for me. What do I need? And this is my answer. So it doesn't mean it's right for you.
Derek Sivers
I think it's.
Jack
I think it's valuable to take, you know, like the way that you're thinking about it. I probably haven't heard that perspective before. So I'm like, that's good. How many people really wouldn't have social media if they didn't need it?
Derek Sivers
Right. Well, okay. That's almost a different subject than of sometimes I feel that I have a little bit of like a Public duty to show an alternate path. Like, for example, I only sell my books on singers.com on my own website for the first year. I don't even put them on Amazon. And again, I know I could sell a lot more books if I put them on Amazon. But I say, you know what? The world needs to be more decentralized. It is. Book sales are too centralized on Amazon. If I can do my one little bit, you know, like like taking out my recycling, you know, so I'm going to do my one little bit by only selling my books on Selfridges.com, even though I know like 50,000 people want them, I'm going to make them buy it on Singers.com just to help decentralize the world a tiny little bit. Then I feel like I've done a little bit of my duty. And so same thing with not having social media. It's like, no, you won't find me on Facebook, you won't find me on Instagram or Twitter. I'm just I'm not there. You have to just go to my website. Um, I'm just trying to decentralize things a bit because it's just something I believe in. I wish, I wish the moral world was more like that. You know, maybe if if I do this in one little way, maybe I influence somebody else in a little way, and maybe the world gets a little more decentralized. I think it would be a better place.
Jack
I love that man, and I appreciate you sharing that.
Derek Sivers
Anyway, that's good. That's my.
Jack
Rant. Thank you. Thank you. Sivers Cvs.com I'm going to go and get the, uh, the books for the team.
Derek Sivers
Oh, actually, yeah.
Derek Sivers
I you get a free one because that's what I promised the crowd there.
Jack
Don't worry. I'm happy, I'm happy. I'm happy to pay my way and, uh. And get it for the team. It's amazing. So thanks so much for your time, man.
Derek Sivers
So nice talking to you. And thank you so much for the, uh, the fun questions. It's actually really helped me today too.
Jack
So thank you, man. Take care. This is general advice and does not take into consideration your objectives, situation or needs. You should consider if this advice is suitable to you or your circumstances and please read any applicable PDF's beforehand. This is a Henderson podcast production.