Real Javier Novoa
host: Javier Novoa
life choices, relocations, philosophy of happiness, minimalism and simplicity, investing strategies, importance of reframing perspectives
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Transcript:
Derek Sivers
Javier that ended up being one of the broadest interviews I’ve done. From you, asking me if I was single, to stock market investing, to you know Krishnamurti. Thank you for being such a broad interviewer. That’s why when you emailed me, I say no to more interview requests than I say yes to. And when are you interviewed me and I checked out your stuff. I went, “Okay, this guy is cool. Yes, I would like to do your show.” So thank you.
Javier
Derek Sivers, it’s a pleasure to have you at our virtual table here.
Derek Sivers
Thanks, Javier. It’s amazing to be summed up as such. Thank you. That was great.
Javier
Well, thank you so much. So the first observation I had, and I think this is like a trend because I’ve interviewed a lot of successful people. I interviewed Jim Rogers, I interviewed people like David Allen from the “Getting Things Done”, the GTD system. I’ve interviewed 2020 who’s a manifestation coach, and all of them are Americans who are living overseas. So, Mr. Sivers, my first question is, why would you leave the great land of America to go live in New Zealand?
Derek Sivers
Ah, because I loved America too much that I was feeling like I would never leave unless I forced myself to leave. So I may make decisions that seem strange to people. Until you understand that I’m trying to live the fullest life I can and my technique for doing that is often to go against my instincts. So say, for example, if my instinct is often to run away when things get tough. I will make myself stay and work things out, even though everything in my instincts is saying run away. I’ll say, you know what, that’s what I usually do. I’m going to make myself do the opposite of what I usually do. And that becomes a good compass to go through life by, to go against your habitual instincts in order to try on different ways of being in the world. So. It was at the age of 36. How old are you now?
Javier
I’m 38.
Derek Sivers
All right. So imagine this at 36, I was living in Santa Monica, California, on the beach. Born in California, grew up in Chicago, Boston, New York City, Portland, Oregon. And there I was on the beach in Santa Monica. Just feeling like this is the best place in the whole world. I love being here. And at the time, I was with a girlfriend that was from Sweden, and she just wanted to travel. She’s like, “I want to travel, I want to go to Mongolia.” I was like, “What? Mongolia? What’s in Mongolia? Just yaks and yurts. There’s nothing to do in Mongolia. Look, we live in the best place in the world. Look at this beach. What are we going to do? Go to a different beach? There’s no reason to travel.” So I was so happy there that I caught myself feeling like this is the best place on Earth. I thought, “Well, that’s not smart, is it? Because I haven’t been most places on Earth.” I was like, “Maybe I need to make myself leave America to get some new comfort zones.” So what I did is I went to England first, you know, let’s start easy. So I went to England, and as soon as the weather got cold and rainy, I went right back to California. And I thought, “Man, I’ve just disappointed myself. I’ve gone back to the place that I was trying to stay away from.” So that was yeah, at the age of 36. So at the age of 38, I said, “Okay, for real this time. In 2010, I’m leaving America and I’m not coming back. I’m going to ban myself from returning even if I want to.” And there were definitely times I really wanted to. You know, things got tough. I just wanted to run home and have a comfort burrito in my comfortable neighborhood.
Javier
To put this in context, a lot of people I know who are like past 35, a lot of people are settled down and they basically think that’s pretty much it. Like for a lot of people, 35 is the same as 65. But for someone like you to be able to shake yourself out of that comfort zone, what was it within you that you are you always questioning yourself? Is it something from your childhood that caused you to always want to shake your mores? Because a lot of people don’t achieve that.
Derek Sivers
Well, it’s the thing I said a minute ago where my primary value or pursuit in life is to try to live a full life. I’m constantly thinking of death and expecting it to come any day now, at any time. So I always want to try different ways of being in the world to experience them. And so that thing you’re describing of just like 35 being the same as 65, that’s what I’m very deliberately acting to avoid. It’s amazing to me there are some things, there are many things in my life that even a year ago definitely ten years ago, I would have been actively prejudiced against. But now I’m living and doing right, so.
Javier
It’s incredible. Wait. Just okay, I sort of cut you off there and I’m sorry. I want to get into this more when we get to the philosophy aspect, but I want you to go on about so you came back from England. I want you to go on with that, too. Sorry.
Derek Sivers
Oh, no, that’s all there was to say about that. It’s just that basically I came back to California. There was a girl in San Francisco that I came back for. But when I saw that I had just retreated back to my comfort zone, that’s when I said, “No, no, no. Okay, now I’m really going to do it. I’m going to become a legal resident.” So first I moved to Singapore, then I had a baby in Singapore, then I moved to New Zealand. But the details don’t matter as much as the methodology, right. So the methodology is when I notice that I am averse to something, that I’m prejudiced against something. I use that as a compass to steer towards it. So some specific examples. Actually, I was thinking about this just last night. Right there next to where we’re recording is my squat rack with a bench press. And I’m sitting there doing my squats and and benches. And I was thinking, “Man, just 12 years ago. I was actively prejudiced against people that did this.” I thought people that spend time lifting pieces of heavy metal are intellectually starving or no, wait, wait, there’s a word I’m missing here. I just thought it was a stupid thing to do, to just spend your time lifting pieces of metal.
Derek Sivers
Because I thought people were only doing it for vanity. I thought they were just all trying to look like Schwarzenegger, and I thought, “God, what a stupid thing to waste your time doing.” And then like 12 years ago, somebody taught me that it’s actually a really smart thing to be doing for your skeleton, that it’s not just your muscles, that it strengthens your bones. And especially as you’re aging, it’s a really smart thing to do for your health. Oh, I had no idea. So having learned more about it, I started going to the local gym and luckily, the owner of the gym was a good trainer in classic old fashioned barbell weightlifting. So he taught me the way to do it right. And now I love it, right. So I can just quickly rattle off some more examples. Right now I have two pet rats, and maybe I should have told this in reverse order, but two months ago, I hated rats. And 20 years ago, I hated rats so bad that I would kill them whenever I could because I lived in a basement apartment next to the garbage, and often I’d come home and there would be rats in front of my door that I’d have to, like, step over them to get into my front door. So I hated rats so badly that I would kill them with great glee and just hated them with a passion.
Derek Sivers
So two months ago, my kids said, “Hey dad, can we get a pet rat?” And I thought he was kidding. I was like, “What? No.” And he said, “No, I’m serious. Look.” And he started showing me these YouTube videos of how cute and cuddly pet rats are. And I went, “Huh? This is blowing my mind.” And we looked into it more and made a, you know, a slow, considerate decision and met with a local breeder of pet rats here. And yeah, about six weeks ago adopted two twin pet rats. And they’re adorable. They’re like little quarter sized kittens. They’re affectionate and sweet and cuddly, and they just want to like nuzzle in my neck. They fall asleep in my arms and they lick my fingers. If I’ve got anything on my fingers, they just, you know, have the cute little tongues. They lick my fingers and I love them. And I never would have predicted that. And there are places on Earth that I used to think I hated. That now I love and there are, I don’t know, styles of music that I used to hate, that now I love. And it’s one of my favorite things in life, is steering into my prejudices and finding a way to appreciate what I used to hate.
Javier
That’s a hard thing for a lot of people. And so your methodology is you’re constantly expanding, you’re constantly growing. And it seems to me that makes life worth living, doesn’t it? Because like you said, death is there. I mean, death could come at any moment. And I believe that doesn’t disturb you that actually drives you, correct?
Derek Sivers
Yes.You know, we all have different things that motivate us, right? Some people have these slogans that they say to themselves in the mirror, or they tattoo on their wrist or whatever, to motivate them to do things. I have never felt so much motivation to exercise as when I heard an idea recently from a woman that is permanently disabled. I think she’s paralyzed or something, I forget. She said, “We are all temporarily abled.” She said, “At some point, every single one of us, unless you die instantly in perfect health. Basically all of us at some point are going to become disabled in some way. You’re not going to have the physical abilities you take for granted now. So don’t forget that we are all temporarily abled.” And I went, “Whoa! I need to get outside and go on a run right now because I’m temporarily able to.” Even when I’m lifting weights, which sometimes hurts, I’m like, “I am temporarily abled and able to do this today. How cool is that? That I can lift this huge barbell over my head.” You know that works for me.
Javier
Yeah. Do you enjoy the stretching or sometimes enjoy the pushing past your boundaries? Enjoy the pain? Or do you see it as something that that needs to be overcome just in order to become the person you want? I don’t know if you’re familiar with David Goggins.
Derek Sivers
Yes. Yeah. Oh my gosh. Yeah.
Javier
I want to ask you what you thought about his whole philosophy, because what you’re saying is sort of reminiscent of what he’s saying. If we don’t push past our abilities, we’ll never know what we could have done. We’ll die not knowing what was possible.
Derek Sivers
Right. I think of that more mentally than I do physically. I’m not as interested as he is in my physical abilities. I’m definitely super interested in my mental abilities to see if I can do-- even, you know, living in a foreign country. New Zealand, to be fair, is not that foreign. This was a a compromise with my kid’s mother. She did not want to live in China or Mongolia like I did. I think if it were up to me right now, I’d be living in India or Saudi Arabia or somewhere a little more challenging. But hey, here we are, New Zealand it is. Yeah, physically the only real joy for me is the thing I just described of like, how cool that I can do this. I feel better about myself. The fact that I can lift this huge damn weight off the ground. That’s really cool that I can do that. It gives me a sense of pride, but it’s mild. I’m mostly doing it because I know I should. On the other hand, if I’m learning to speak a language, or if I’m programming in a Unix terminal in SQL, doing something I didn’t know how to do last week, that excites me the most. Or making good friends with an Emirati man dressed in the big white robes with a black ring on his head, going, “Wow, I never would have pictured a year ago that I would have been friends with somebody that looks like this. How cool.” Those are my happiest moments. Those excite me more than, you know running in the rain.
Javier
Now, just a big curiosity finishing off this, why you moved to New Zealand. Is it true, or did I hear that you actually renounced your US citizenship?
Derek Sivers
And that was. Yeah.
Javier
Why? Do you want to get into that?
Derek Sivers
Sure, I don’t mind. Yeah. I kept it a secret for 14 years. And then last year I thought, “All right, that’s enough.” I don’t like keeping secrets. So, I did it just for the reason I said earlier, which is I wanted to prevent myself from returning to my comfort zone. So I thought, “Okay. At the age of 36. I said I wasn’t coming back, but then as soon as times got tough, I did come back. Now at the age of 38. I really, really, really want to go and really prevent myself from coming back.” So I gave up my US citizenship as a way of burning the ships to prevent myself from returning. That’s it. The next question people ask is if it was like a tax thing. But no, my taxes actually went up, not down. I have to pay more tax now as a non-U.S. citizen because my income is still U.S. based, so I pay a flat 30% is withheld at the source. So no, my taxes went up, not down. It was not for taxes. It was just my way of burning the ships to prevent my retreat.
Javier
Yes. Now, just a tiny bit about your childhood. I read your little biography on your website. And I’d also heard you in other interviews. So you had a concurrent path in music and in programming from a very early age, correct?
Derek Sivers
I guess so, yeah.
Javier
That’s a very interesting combination. But is music and programming to a certain extent, does that stem from the same brain function, so to speak?
Derek Sivers
I’ve thought about this a bit, and I don’t think it’s the same brain function as much as a personality type. They’re both things that you have to be somewhat of an introvert to get good at or to enjoy, choose to do with your time. Believe it or not, there’s some other skills like this. There are a lot of like say jugglers and magicians. The people that I used to be in the circus with. We also had this in common. What it takes for you to become good at playing a musical instrument is just hundreds and hundreds or thousands of hours spent alone doing finger exercises basically, you know, practicing your technique. It’s the same thing with people who learn to juggle, who learn to do magic tricks. It’s the same thing with programmers that are sitting there by themselves in a coding window, you know, trying out functions to get things to work. It’s a personality type that nerds out in solitude.
Javier
You have to pretty much isolate yourself.
Derek Sivers
Usually, yeah.
Javier
And that’s also the quality of monks and spiritual people as well.
Derek Sivers
Yeah. Right. Right. People. Okay, I can relate to almost anybody on Earth. I can’t relate to people who say that they can’t be alone with their thoughts. That’s something that’s hard for me to fathom. I just love being alone with my thoughts. It’s hard for me to imagine not wanting to be alone. I feel I can go without food for a week. I can not go without solitude for a week. I need solitude more than I need food.
Javier
I need it as well. And one of the people I interviewed, Trevor Blake. He wrote the book called “Three Simple Steps”. I don’t know if you’ve read it or heard about it, but he talks about the fact that all great inventors and business people, they had a practice whereby they would go out in nature and be alone for a period every single day. And I mean, there’s no really real way to get good ideas if you don’t practice solitude.
Derek Sivers
I’d only push back on it a bit to say. Any time you hear anyone say some absolutist statement like that, like the only way to have good ideas is in the forest, in solitude. It’s never the only way.
Javier
I put it badly. I don’t know. But meaning that it’s a really good way to get good.
Derek Sivers
Right. Yeah.
Derek Sivers
But, you know, there are some programmers and of course, musicians that are big extroverts. So there are other ways, but I do think it’s not a surprise when you meet somebody that is into music and programming. Those two things have a lot in common, more in the the kind of person you need to be to enjoy diving into them.
Javier
They do. And incidentally, I did want to ask you, do you have any sort of spiritual practice? Are you spiritual at all? Do you meditate or anything like that? If we may ask.
Derek Sivers
Short answer, no. But I spend about an hour a day in the forest, walking. Where I live in New Zealand, it’s very, very hilly. So to go for an hour walk in the forest means to come back drenched in sweat. Because it’s a lot of up, up up up up up up, up, up. You know, climbing up 40 flights worth of hill and then back down and up and down again before I return home. So I do it in the name of exercise. But man, it is so good for my mental health. I wouldn’t call it meditation though. Though it has a similar effect, because I don’t fill my ears with things. I don’t bring headphones. In fact, I don’t bring a phone. I don’t bring anything. I just walk out the door with nothing. Luckily, my house key is not a key. It’s like a combination on the door. So I did that on purpose so that I wouldn’t need to bring a key with me when I go anywhere. So I like walking out the door with nothing. No bottle of water, no phone, no headphones. Just go and just go for an hour of being completely detached and just being in the woods with the birds.
Javier
That is beautiful thing. And so have you ever worked for somebody? From what I read. I believe that you were just a musician in your 20s, and then you had your big break. Or did you do other things besides the circus act?
Derek Sivers
Right, right. No, I had some jobs at the age of 16. I couldn’t wait the day I turned 16 and I was legally allowed to work in Illinois. I grew up in Chicago. I went for a telemarketing job because I had really long hair at the time, so I was unpresentable. I couldn’t work at a restaurant, but I thought, you know, telemarketing nobody cares what you look like. So, yeah, I got a job telemarketing at the age of 16. I did that all the way till I was 18. I think I got another telemarketing job when I was in Boston. I worked at a candy store in Boston for a while. What else did I do? Circus. Oh, God then I worked inside the music industry for Warner Brothers in central Manhattan. Running the tape room. Basically the entry level job at Warner Brothers to get me inside the music industry where I could make connections. But yeah, I quit my last job in 1992, and I haven’t had a job since.
Javier
That is awesome. And when did you actually start making enough money in music to where you could live independently with that?
Derek Sivers
In 1992. That’s when I quit my job. I was working the day job and every weekend I was doing gigs. So every Friday, Saturday, Sunday I was doing gigs, whether with my band or with the circus. And then every Monday morning I’d go back to the day job 9 to 5. By the way, I used to think that everybody said day job. Then I found out, no, it’s just us musician types that say day job to refer to.
Javier
Because they have to do the gigs during the night.
Derek Sivers
Yeah, exactly. So yeah, I had the day job from 9 to 5, and I saved up $12,000 in 1992, and that was enough at the time. I was living dirt cheap. I found one of the cheapest neighborhoods in New York City was in Queens, and I found a floor of a house, split it with three guys, so my rent was $333 a month. I never took taxis, I never ate at restaurants. I would just eat like peanut butter sandwiches, and I’d wait an hour for the subway. I was a cheapskate, but it meant I was able to live on basically $1,000 a month. And so once I had $12,000 saved up, I was like, “Yeah, I am all set. I can quit my job now.”
Javier
Wow. And then your company that you made, I believe it was a music website, correct?
Derek Sivers
Yeah.
Javier
And you were sending CDs or discs?
Derek Sivers
Yeah.
Javier
When did that start? Was it in your 30s?
Derek Sivers
I was 29. Yeah, I was 29. I was selling my CD. On my band’s website and my other musician friends in New York City asked if I could also sell their CD through this thing I had built to sell my own. So I said sure. As a favor to friends. And then they told friends, “Hey, my friend Derek can sell your music.” So soon strangers were calling me and I realized I had accidentally started a business which I had never intend to do. I really only wanted to be a musician, but I accidentally started a music distribution company, and that’s what I did for ten years, from the age of 28 to 38.
Javier
And then that’s how you got-- oh go ahead.
Derek Sivers
Yeah. And that’s why I kind of was inspired to leave America for good too. Is like, I sold my company. I was no longer dating the girl from Sweden. I was unattached to everything and everywhere. And I just thought, “Well, there’s nothing holding me here anymore. Let’s go.”
Javier
By. Incidentally, if we can ask, is Derek Sivers married or have a girlfriend now?
Derek Sivers
You know what’s funny? Nobody’s ever, ever asked me that in an interview.
Javier
Really?
Derek Sivers
No, I actually, no, I broke up with my New Zealand girlfriend last year. And no, I am just enjoying being single. That’s really funny. Nobody’s ever asked me that. What a fun question.
Javier
I was curious about it. But being single sort of a freer way of living. Although being with someone also has its benefits.
Derek Sivers
Yeah, I have a 12 year old boy and he and I are so close. We spend about 30 hours a week together, just me and him, just one on one, giving him my full attention. We travel together, we read books together. We just talk about life. We spend a lot of time together. And any time I’m not with him, I just like to be working. So, like, my typical day is, like, I wake up at 6 a.m. and I’m basically writing from 6 a.m. till, say, 10 p.m., and I only stop to get something to eat or to hang out with my boy. And that’s my life. So I am not--
Javier
There is no time for a relationship in that.
Derek Sivers
Right? I’m not yearning for a relationship. Maybe in the same way that I’ve never wanted a business partner. I always did my business solo. I think I’m kind of feeling like that about a life partner is I’m not really wanting a partner. I’m enjoying going out into the world and meeting people and just being solo. I’m not really looking to be half of a couple, you know.
Javier
Living free, that’s the whole thing.
Derek Sivers
Yeah, I mean, although to be fair, it’s not entirely free. Like I said, I’d rather be living in India or Saudi Arabia or somewhere challenging right now, but my boy is here in New Zealand, so that’s why I’m here and that’s that. So I’m here for him.
Javier
Have you’ve been to Saudi Arabia and United Arab Emirates?
Derek Sivers
I’ve been to United Arab Emirates. I haven’t been to Saudi Arabia yet, but when I was in UAE, the people I met there said, “Oh, if you think Emiratis are friendly, wait till you go to Saudi Arabia.” He goes, “Oh my God, the nicest, friendliest people you’ll ever meet. Everybody will insist you come into their home for a meal. Everybody will bend over backwards for you.” Have you been?
Javier
No, but when I was-- I never finished university. But when I was taking courses, I knew a lot of Saudi students, and I learned a little bit of Arabic and they would always invite me in their house and give me food. And it’s an incredible thing.
Derek Sivers
They’re very jealous.
Javier
At least they were. Yeah. You should go.
Derek Sivers
I really want to, I really want to get to know that culture better. That’s actually one of the examples-- I started skipping over specifics. But Dubai is a place that just say, 14 months ago I thought represented everything I hate in the world. Like I it was on my top ten list of places I hope to never go. Dubai just sounded awful, terrible. No way. I never want to go there. I was wrong. I was so wrong. It’s a wonderful, warm, heart driven place with an amazing culture underneath it. Yes, Dubai itself is kind of very profitable glitz on top of this very ancient culture. The culture itself and the people there are just warm and wonderful. And now I’ve been reading books about Arab culture and understanding it better. And yeah, I’d love to learn some Arabic, and I’d love to get to know the other parts of that region. I’d love to get to know Saudi Arabia and Kuwait, etc..
Javier
You were hanging out a lot with Sam Harris before that, correct? Or you read some of his stuff.
Derek Sivers
No, I’ve read a couple of his books. Never met him.
Javier
Oh. Because Sam Harris is a very smart guy and I love his meditation and his writing. I think also he has his views on-- because Tim Ferriss and you mentioned his works in the interview a little. A little bit, in passing. But I think his view is sort of limited. I think he doesn’t want to-- like you said, a few months ago, you would have said, “oh, the Middle East is somewhere I never want to go.” But then you saw another side of it and it goes into your most recent book, which is. There’s nothing that’s true, except what’s right infront of us.
Derek Sivers
Yeah, we have a tendency to think that we are right and others are wrong, and that my point of view is the way it is. We don’t say it’s my point of view. We say this is the way it is. And if somebody doesn’t agree with you, well, they’re wrong and they’ve got a problem, they’ve been brainwashed or they’re stupid and they’ll maybe see the light someday. But it’s really humbling to realize that in all these ways that we think we are right. It’s just a perspective. It’s just one point of view.
Javier
Segueing into this, like the meat of the interview, which is how to live your life. Because you seem to me as basically a teacher or at least a pathfinder of how to live our lives. And one story that I heard in the Tim Ferriss interview really struck me, and I just want to go back to that. You said, I don’t remember if this was when you were in New Zealand. You said you were about to buy a new house, and the very night before you’re about to close the deal, and you said you were excited about it. Tell us that story. Just what happened and what you ended up doing and why.
Derek Sivers
Yeah. Wait. Sorry. I got to pause for a second. Do you ever have a moment where you’re talking to a friend and you start to say something, you go, “Wow, how did you know that thing about me?” And it’s like, “Oh, I guess I must have told you that.” I forgot that I’ve ever talked about that publicly.
Javier
You told Tim Ferriss
Derek Sivers
Oh, see, I forgot that I told Tim about that. Yeah, that was interesting. Yeah, yeah, that was right here in this house. So right now I’m in a pretty crappy rundown house right now, which I bought intending to renovate it. And I’m going to be tearing it down soon, but I’m still living in it while I’m building a cabin on a piece of land elsewhere. And so while living in this crappy house, I put an offer on this amazing, great place out at the end of a peninsula in the water. Oh, it’s gorgeous. And I’d actually lived there before, six years ago. Last time I lived in New Zealand before I went to England and came back. And so I knew not in theory, but in fact in practice. I knew that I loved living on this wharf. And so when the penthouse on that wharf came up for sale, I said, “Hell yeah, count me in.” Put an offer. My offer was accepted. And it was the night before, like I had signed the offer and it was the night before they were going to return the signed offer and I was going to have to transfer them a huge chunk of money. And I went to bed that night going, “Man, tomorrow I’m going to be the owner of this apartment and I’m going to be so happy.” And then I went, “Wait.” And this is like laying in bed, you know, at like 10:30 at night, right. Like falling asleep. I was like, “I’m going to be so happy tomorrow.”
Derek Sivers
Then I thought, “Wait, I’m already happy. Am I actually going to be so much happier tomorrow? No, I’m probably going to be about the same happy as I am right now. Then why the hell would I be spending a ton of money to be the same happy I am right now? That’s stupid. Oh my God, what a waste because it’s not just the upfront. It has like high building maintenance fees because it’s a wharf in the water. It takes a lot to maintain. Oh my gosh, this is stupid. Why am I doing this? Why spend a ton of money for the same amount of happiness? That money could feed people that would die without it or whatever. Oh my God.” So 9 a.m. I called the lawyer the minute his office opened and said, “Yeah, is is Tony there?” “Yeah. He’s here.” “Tony it’s Derek have you got the signed offer back yet?” “No.” I was like, “Cancel it right now. Call them immediately. Say never mind. Pull it off quickly before you get it. “He said, “Okay, can I make this your verbal authorization?” I said, “Yes, go, go go.” So he canceled it in time. And I am so thankful that I didn’t get that wonderful apartment, even though every now and then, like I’d say, maybe two minutes per year, I think, “Man, that would have been nice.” But you know what that’s only two minutes. It’s okay. And instead, I saved a lot of money that would have been spent for very little happiness in return.
Javier
Wow. That’s amazing. To sort of figure out in monetary terms what the extra happiness would be and a lot of times it’s not. And that’s just incredible. And that’s what I talk about on my channel with minimalism and of course, on our channel, most of our subscribers are not yet, you know, very wealthy. And that’s one of the main utilities of minimalism, being happy with less.
Derek Sivers
Right.
Javier
And being able to put money towards better uses. But for you, I know you’re a very wealthy man once you sold off your business. A lot of people would ask, well, you have more liberty to spend. Why would you still be like, for example, I think Tim Ferriss said you only had 1 or 2 cups that you use. You only have a certain amount of dishes. Do you do that? What’s your philosophy behind being a minimalist, even though you could not have to do that, basically.
Derek Sivers
Having too much stuff to me feels like wearing clothes that are too big. Or perhaps, maybe it feels like if you’ve ever, even as a joke or for circumstance. If you’ve ever worn like a shirt and then a sweater, and then an undercoat and then an overcoat. You’ve got like four layers on and you feel like this. It doesn’t feel good. And I think having too much stuff feels like that. I don’t like the way it feels. I like having just what I need. And if I own something that I haven’t used in a year, well, then give it away. Obviously I don’t want to be a caretaker. You have to be a caretaker for all these things you own. You have to look after them and store them and clean them and I just don’t want the responsibility, the burden of having anything that I don’t actually need. So, yeah, I don’t entertain guests here in my house, in my crappy house in New Zealand. If I do have guests come to New Zealand or if I’m meeting up with somebody locally, we go out to a restaurant and go somewhere nice, or I bring him out to one of my favorite nature places.
Derek Sivers
I bring them out to the coast, and we sit on the rocks at the beach. Actually, like when Tim came into town, I picked him up at the airport and the first thing we did, is we went out to the rocks where we got a Domino’s Pizza and sat on the rocks with my kid and talked about life for hours. And that’s why it was yeah, five, six, seven days later when he actually came over to my house and I was like, “Oh, you want something to drink? Well, hold on, I think I have two cups. Yeah, okay. I have two cups.” So no, I don’t keep, you know, 14 sets of plates and dishes here because there’s no need for that. So even this house that I said I’m making on a piece of land right now, it’s a four by eight meter empty cabin that is my dream home. It doesn’t even have a bathroom. There’s an outhouse outside because I don’t want to have to clean a bathroom. So this is my dream house.
Javier
It is freeing that basically just what you need as far as the house.
Derek Sivers
Yes, it feels like to use the close metaphor, when you have just what you need, it feels like you’re making clothes that were made to fit you exactly. It’s like, “There just what I need. No extra fabric, no baggy pants. It’s just what I need.”
Javier
I feel like the reason people are so stressed and working so hard is because they don’t get that. I think if we working like in your definition and we’re going to talk about I want to talk about the early retirement concept. But retirement for me means working 10 or 12 hours a day, but on things that I love when I want to do it and I don’t necessarily have to achieve a result. I do it out of love. But a lot of people are going to places that they don’t want to go, and I think it’s to maintain all this stuff.
Derek Sivers
Right. It would be a more direct path to not get the stuff and not have to do a bunch of work that you don’t like. If I sound like a weirdo. It’s partially because of who I grew up around. And I don’t mean growing up as a little kid. I mean, like, when I was 17, 18, joined the circus. I stayed in that circus for ten very formative years of my life, from the age of 18 to 28. And the people that I was around were jugglers and face painters and magicians that were all living basically hand to mouth. Even my boss at the circus never spent more than $1,000 on a car in his life. He refused to on principle. Even he was living hand to mouth. Paying no rent, living in the attic of an arts center. Because the woman that owned the arts center liked his work and said, “You and your wife can and your kid can stay here for free.” And I was surrounded by people who just found ways to be resourceful and live on $1,000 a month. Which as a juggler with any bit of skill and savvy, you can make $1,000 a month, doing gigs and pay your rent as a juggler. If you can keep your cost of living low. And so I spent ten formative years of my life around other people that were living this way. So it’s no surprise that to me, that was the norm. And I’m perplexed by people that have two cars and a four bedroom house and all these things. And I’m like, why? Why would you do that to yourself?
Javier
It’s the rat race.
Derek Sivers
Yeah.
Javier
And so you’re a huge proponent--
Derek Sivers
I have not yet raced my rats. I should do that. But I do have a nice ongoing joke about a rat’s ass, because I now can give a rat’s ass, you know? Anyway.
Javier
I like that you gotta maybe you should make a video of your rats.
Derek Sivers
Yeah, the rat’s ass and and the rat race. Yeah.
Javier
That’s right. But you’re a big proponent of walking away, and I know at one point you just walked away from music. Correct? I think you said if someone becomes the best at something or he gets the ultimate satisfaction, many people stay after that. But why would you stay, why would you not walk away? And so you’re all about continuous transformation. So what advice do you give people about sort of like walking away and transforming themselves later in life? Especially in their 40s and their 50s. And when people think I’m pretty much peaked out.
Derek Sivers
Yeah. Well, that’s a good if you think you’ve peaked out, that’s a damn good reason to make a change. Come on. I mean, look, I’m not going to prescribe that everybody should do this because it meets my values. Even my sister, who’s just two years younger than me, is quite opposite and does not want this lifestyle I’m living. Even though we grew up in the same circumstances. We all just have our, you know, there’s nature and there’s nurture. We have our nature that prefers to be a certain way. But I will say that everyone, especially somebody listening to Javier’s show here, you should consider that whatever you are used to. And whatever you’ve done a lot, you should change it up and force yourself out of your habits and your comfort zone to stop doing the thing you always do, to start doing the thing you never do. And just add more synapses to your brain, you know, add more of those-- what do they call those neuro connections? Myelin. Something like that. Add more connections to your brain. Try doing things in a way that you’re not used to. That feels very not you. Yeah, I think a lot of people have this kind of approach to say, “Well, that’s just me. That’s just how I am.” And when I catch myself thinking that, I can’t help but challenge that. Well, what I’m saying is, that’s what I’m used to doing. So therefore, shouldn’t I do the opposite?
Javier
And there are people very close to me that and just we talk about this like they say, “Well, I just don’t do this. That’s this is not what I do. I do it like this.” And I’m like, try doing it differently. Just, you know, try it for once and see what happens. But how do you get across that threshold? Because for some things, like a lot of people have, for example, inhibitions to ask people for something because they might look silly. How do you cross that threshold? Because every time you try to do it, you push against an emotion and that emotion stops most people. How do you break through that? And I guess the prescription for that would be just do it right.
Derek Sivers
Well. Yeah. The how isn’t the issue. It’s the why. It’s the priority or I mean, honestly, you know, anybody listening to your show now has pretty much self-selected to be the kind of person that is likely to do this. And if somebody is the kind of person that thinks that Javier’s show is a waste of their time, they’re not in the right position. Actually, wait. Hold on. Let’s not act like I’m sorry. Let’s not forget the importance of timing. For 15, oh my gosh, 25 years of my life from the age of 14 until 39, basically. I had no interest in anything we’re talking about. I was head down and completely focused on one thing, and that was for 15 years. It was being a successful musician, and then for 10 years it was running my company. Javier I didn’t even read books. As I started the story earlier saying I didn’t travel, I had no interest. You couldn’t make me travel. I had no interest in cultures outside my own. I had no interest in anything that wasn’t going to make me successful at my current pursuit. And that’s that. Anything outside of that, my girlfriend tried to get me to read poetry. I’m like.
Derek Sivers
“Poetry. I’m busy.” You know, hey, if somebody were to talk about like, “Actually, I did meet somebody once that sold their company and was saying, oh, it’s wonderful. You know, I’m getting into archery and horseback riding.” And they were saying these things and I’m just listening to him going, “You’re sad and pathetic.” Like you’re not focused anymore. You’re not creating value for the world. I had no respect for this person that was branching out and expanding their horizons, because I was just in a time in my life and a mindset where I just wanted to have this laser focus on this one thing. Everything else. Shut up! Out of my way! You’re a distraction. You’re an obstacle. Get out of my way! I’m doing this one thing. So I never would have listened to your podcast at that time in my life. And I’m talking about 25 years of my life was like that laser single, focused. It wasn’t until the age of 38, 39 that I, for the first time, lifted my head up and went, “All right, I’d like to take in some new inputs now.” And I guess you could say I’m still in that zone.
Javier
And I talk about that, that like, I’m not going to reach people who are not ready to be reached. I tell people I do it for my own self aggrandizement, my own expansion. And then if people benefit, I love it. But I was going to ask you, do you believe in altruism or do you think altruism is wrongheaded? I mean, because, again, like you said, it’s very hard to benefit someone unless they’re ready to be benefited. Should we do things with the aim of serving others, or should we just do what we feel inspired to do and then let the chips fall where they may?
Derek Sivers
Well. Wait. Yes, you should do what you’re inspired to do. What you’re intrinsically motivated to do. But I think most people that are into altruism are very inspired and intrinsically motivated into altruism. You shouldn’t do something because somebody’s guilting you into it or saying you should. But no, I think most people you’ll find that are into altruism are super inspired and really driven by this mission to help others. So if that works for you, then you should. And if that does not work for you, then you shouldn’t. In my particular case, I’m actually not altruistic. Even though it’s widely known that I have given away everything. Well, anyway, I’ve given away most of what I ever could have had. But it wasn’t altruistic it was just rational. I was being offered $22 million that I knew I was never going to spend. And in fact kind of like wanting the restriction of letting go of my U.S. citizenship. I wanted the restriction of not even having $22 million, because if I had it, I might do stupid things with it. So I didn’t want to even have it. To be fair, I already had $4 million, so you know, I was fine. I was set for life. To me, $4 million is set for life. Don’t care what anybody says. Yeah so when somebody was offering me another $22 million, it just felt irrational to take it. So that’s why I structured it in such a way when I sold my company. So that the $22 million never touched my hands, it went straight into a charitable trust. And, yeah, it never touched my hands. I never had access to it. And I preferred it that way so that I couldn’t do anything stupid with it. But I just need to clarify. It’s not like I’m a really good guy. I’m not super generous and altruistic. It just was rational for the reasons I’m describing here.
Javier
Precisely. And so getting into your last book, that was a very interesting read and I loved it. And it’s written, I don’t know if you’ve listened to Krishnamurti or heard of his.
Derek Sivers
Not yet. It’s queued up on my reading list.
Javier
He basically says all of this, that you say that basically, and I think all of the spiritual teachers, at least the eastern ones, have talked about it, that it’s all conditioning, like everything is conditioning. And I think the physics is also backing this up. So I love the fact and you said it on Tim Ferriss Show as well. Like this computers in front of me. That’s a true statement because even that’s not true. Because that’s all just the reaction of the, you know, the atoms upon my optical system and so on. But at least it’s something that I can see and observe. But saying, for example, AI is going to be a game changer. That’s not true. Can you explain this philosophy a little bit and especially how it benefits us?
Derek Sivers
Yeah. No. In short, I need to preface or frame everything I’m saying. That ultimately, the reason I’m saying everything I’m about to say is all in the service of the importance of reframing. To me, reframing is everything. The ability to choose your perspective, to choose your reaction, to choose the way you’re going to think about anything that’s happening. After we hang up the phone today, I could get into a car crash and get paralyzed and somebody could say, “Okay, that’s just objectively a bad thing.” And I could say, “Well, maybe. Or maybe it’s the best thing that could ever happen to me. For so many reasons, it might be the greatest thing that ever happened to me.” You choose your perspective on anything. So this matters for strategy. Even if somebody’s listening to this is out to make big money. Reframing helps you see better strategies. If you’re leaving reality wide open for you to see other ways of looking at it. You can see strategies that most people don’t see. Because they’re just focused on norms, thinking that norms are true. This is how business goes. This is the way it’s done, and that’s that. This is the way it must be. But if you’re in a reframing mindset, you’re just looking at all of this and everything anybody’s ever told you going, “Well, that’s not necessarily true. Just because everybody does it that way doesn’t mean that’s the way.” And it gives you a more creative outlook. It’s great for making peace with the past.
Derek Sivers
If you feel that somebody has wronged you and they are evil and you were right and they were wrong, and they’re a bad person, and you’re just going to be angry at them for the rest of your life. You could find a way to reframe your past to go, “Actually, that’s not necessarily true. You know, maybe they could say the same about me. Maybe I wronged them. Ooh. You know, that’s something to take into consideration. If I wronged them, then maybe I should apologize and move on. And there’s nothing to be angry about anymore. Maybe I created the situation where they were forced to do something against me because I backed them against the wall.” You can reframe your past. You can reframe the future. You can reframe strategy for your actions. So reframing is super, super, super effective and important. And with that said, the reason my book is called “Useful Not True”, and it spends the first three out of five sections focused on pointing out how much isn’t true. Is because in the metaphorical example, if you are reframing a painting, you need to first remove the existing frame before you can try on new frames. So I do spend 3/5 of the book pointing out how much of what we hear and think is just not true, not necessarily true. It’s not the only option. It’s removing the old frame. So that we’re free to consider other ways to think about it.
Javier
Yes. And again like you said, a lot of people are just so wearing these tunnel vision blinkers like horses that they can’t even look at another perspective. And so just to break the ice on that, I think it’s incredible that your book did, which is reminiscent a lot. I don’t know if you’ve read William James pragmatism.
Derek Sivers
Yes.
Javier
Yes. And that is basically to me, that’s what this is saying. And I talk about this on our channel, like on our channel, we take the point of view of interior-ism, which is sort of I don’t know if you know about Law of Attraction, Law of Assumption and things like this where.
Derek Sivers
I know Law of Attraction, I don’t know Law of Assumption, and I don’t know interior-ism.
Javier
Have you heard of Neville Goddard?
Derek Sivers
No.
Javier
Okay. But basically, he was a mystic who taught that your imagination is the creative factor. So when you imagine something that has to come to pass, but on our channel, we don’t say that this is true or you have to believe this. We say that it’s useful to believe it because once you do that, you’re going to be inspired to remove a lot of the blocks and take a lot of the actions that you need to take. So I think that’s the same with your work as well. It just gives you a new way to strategize and take the assets that you need to take.
Derek Sivers
Nice. A shorthand I like to think of is that whatever you consider true is closed. Like no questioning, it’s a fact, and that’s that. It’s just true. And that’s why it’s really handy to say, “Well, maybe this is not necessarily true.” Because as soon as you think or say not necessarily true it’s an invitation to say, “Well, then what else could be true? How else could I see it?” So I really like that phrase. Not necessarily true. As soon as you hear that, it’s an invitation to say, “Well, what else? Then how else could I think about it?” And that’s actually where I found out that pragmatism wasn’t what I was after. I contacted a philosophy professor when I first started writing this book two years ago, and I said, “I’m interested in this idea of Useful Not True. I’m sure other philosophers have thought about this. Can you guide me?” And she said she’s a professor at University of Ohio and wrote a great book. Her name is Sharon Kay, one of the clearest writers I’ve ever read. She said, “Oh, I think you’re describing pragmatism. Look into William James.” And so she pointed me towards 4 or 5 books, and I ended up reading 5, 6 or 7 books about pragmatism, but I only half agreed with them because for example, William James often says, “If it works, then it’s true.” And I went, “No, if it works, then it works.” But it’s not true because in my mind when you when you say true, that means we’re done. That’s a fact and that’s that. Oh, I mean, Javier, you saw on the first page of the new book, I say, “My definition of true is absolutely objectively, empirically, necessarily true. Always every where and for everyone.” Like that’s absolutely true.
Javier
Nothing meets that criteria, by the way.
Derek Sivers
Well, okay. See, this is where we choose to draw the line. So like in my mind. Yeah like I’m clapping my hands right now. That’s just true. And if somebody says, “Oh, well, maybe that’s an illusion and you’re just having a dream right now.” I say, “Well this is where I draw the line. I draw the line at saying no I am actually clapping my hands right now. That’s not a dream. And this is not all a virtual reality. I’m not Mr Anderson in a gooey pod right now. I am actually clapping my hands.” That’s where I draw the line. Somebody else would say, “No even that’s an illusion.” I say, “Okay, great. If that’s how you want to see it, that’s fine.” And it’s interesting to go the other way that some people say, “No, the Christian God is God, and that is that. And that is not up for questioning.” I said the Christian God, but somebody else could say, “No, no, no. The Hindu beliefs are absolutely true. They are not myths. They are not stories. They are not up for questioning. This is absolutely true. And I am not questioning that.”
Derek Sivers
I said, “Okay, great. That’s what works for you. That’s where you draw the line.” You’re drawing it here. I’m drawing it here. Somebody else draws it here. We all draw the line at what you will not question. And I think it’s good to know about yourself what you will absolutely not question. Because then everything else is up for reframing. In short, I think we all draw the line at wherever works for us, but it helps to know where you draw the line. Based on your hardcore convictions. Because where you draw the line that says what you’re not going to question like these things are off limits for questioning. These are not up for discussion. This, for me, is an absolute. Then everything else is up for reframing. And by the way, I don’t want to sound like I’m just talking about religion with this. For me, the importance of being with my son is not up for negotiation. Nobody’s going to talk me out of the importance of being a good dad and being there for my kid. Yeah, no matter what. That to me, it might as well just be an absolute law of nature that’s not getting questioned. They’re very, very, very few things like that in my life. That are off limits for questioning.
Javier
Like your axiom. So, like your presupposition.
Derek Sivers
Ooh. Good word. Yeah, axiom. I don’t think I’ve ever heard anybody say that word out loud before. I’ve seen it written. I’ve never heard somebody say axiom. Good word. Yeah everything else is up for reframing. And at least for me, for now, for the sake of this book, that’s what I’m on about. And that’s what this is all about, is the importance of questioning almost everything for peace of mind, our effectiveness. To just be a more effective, happier human, it’s really useful to question norms. Question things like obligations, loyalty.
Javier
I love that.
Derek Sivers
Yeah, I think a lot of people have grown up in an environment of guilt. Where their parents told them things as if they were absolute truths, but in fact are just beliefs that were useful for their parents to try to instill in their kids for their own subconscious gain. That a lot of people are living quite unhappy lives because they’re taking obligations as absolute truths. And they should. I’m not saying they’re all wrong, but I’m saying they should be questioned. It’s not the only answer.
Javier
Absolutely. Just for the final part of this, getting into like brass tacks, benefiting from some of Derek Sivers business acumen as well as applying some of these philosophies. So do you invest at all? Or are you into any of that field of investing or?
Derek Sivers
I don’t do any speculation where I say like, “Hey, I think this stock is gonna go up and this one’s going down, or it’s got a bright future as this company.” I never do that. And I don’t know why I had to put on that voice to say those things. But, I am 100% invested in the stock market in general. Like I basically have 100% of my savings in ETFs that just represent the entire world economy. It’s like 13 ETFs getting everything from, you know, the US market, the non-US market, the European market, the Asian market, the commodities, real estate investment trust, whatever. I just read like 4 or 5 books on investing that just gave some wise advice on how to not speculate at all, to not think that, you know, anything that every investor at Goldman Sachs knows. I don’t know anything that they don’t know. So therefore I am not going to compete against them. It’s a nice reminder that anytime you are buying a stock, that means somebody else smarter than you has decided it’s time to get rid of that stock. That’s why they’re selling it to you.
Javier
That’s a great way to look at it.
Derek Sivers
And I just assume that I am stupid and know nothing. Also, I just don’t care enough to know anything that everyone at Goldman Sachs or you know, Bank of America doesn’t know or knows. And so therefore, no, I’m invested in a broad representation of the entire world economy, that’s all.
Javier
So you don’t really follow economic news or where the world’s going?
Derek Sivers
That doesn’t matter.
Javier
That’s a good thing. Doesn’t matter because always goes up in the end, hopefully.
Derek Sivers
Yeah. And the whole idea of following the news. I mean, for one, I don’t want to live that way. That’s the biggest point here. But also it implies that you’re going to like, figure out some strategy based on like, “Oh, I just saw something in the news that oil barrels are such and such and that the leader of China just said this thing.” Well guess what? Like the bots that are managed by Blackrock or whatever were on top of that news in milliseconds. It is too late. It’s already been factored into the market. You’re never going to-- we’d say it’s better to assume that you’re never going to outsmart the market.
Javier
It is better.
Derek Sivers
Oh.
Javier
And there’s an author, there’s a book called “The Intuitive Investor”, and I recommend it to everybody. And I’m actually having the author on for an interview in the next few days. But his whole spiel is that the, you know, the left brain and the right brain, obviously. Well, all of the left brain information like this stock’s going to do this because the numbers are this. Everybody knows that. And a lot of people smarter than us know that. But the right brain is basically the the mechanism that’s going to be able to tell you what to do in a more intuitive way. And he talks about that. So don’t necessarily follow the information, but try to follow your right brain. I don’t know if you resonate with that at all.
Derek Sivers
Absolutely not.
Javier
Absolutely not.
Derek Sivers
I feel the opposite, I think. My favorite wise investment advisor is William Bernstein, who’s written some books called “The Four Pillars” and “Investors Manifesto” and some others.
Javier
“A Splendid Exchange”, I think he wrote.Is that it?
Derek Sivers
Yes. Yes, I think so. That sounds familiar. What I liked, his point is-- he’s actually the one that kind of spelled out this kind of, you know, 13% in this and 26% in that and 7% in this. If you do these ETFs, this will kind of represent a picture of the world economy as a whole with no speculation at all. And he said, “Then all you have to do is rebalance back to your asset allocation.” He said, “Then investing becomes not a matter of mood, but just a matter of math. You’ve just got your spreadsheet telling you what your asset allocation is. Try to keep to about 13% of this and 7% of this, and 5% of that and 8% of this, and that’s it.” And no matter what your intuition is telling you, no matter what your mood is going, I don’t know. Things are looking freaky here, man. I think I might want to get out of the stock market. No, you just leave your moods and emotions and intuitions out of it completely. Just stay balanced to the spreadsheet and that’s it. That works for me better.
Javier
So and just finally, the I don’t know if you’re familiar with the “Early Retirement Extreme”. It’s a great book but basically he talks about-- have you read it?
Derek Sivers
No, not the book, but just the idea.
Javier
But he basically talks about living like you, living as cheaply as you can, and then you’re able to retire within five years instead of within like 30 years. And so just for a lot of people, a lot of my subscribers watching this channel is about, we want to live free, get free from a job and a boss in the shortest time possible. Not necessarily be rich, but live a minimalist lifestyle, but a fulfilling lifestyle. How do you recommend someone who has a job, has no savings, can get free from that within like a shorter period? Like five year period? What are the steps you recommend they take as a business person? As someone who’s done it yourself?
Derek Sivers
Actually. I’ll bet my job to say here would be more about the mindset difference that you need to make. Like my example of the people I was surrounded with in the circus. I think it would really help to see role models of a really happy, productive, unburdened people that you could meet. And get a glimpse of their lives to see what it looks like to live this way. To sell your car that’s still worth $25,000 and buy a car that’s worth $4,000. And save that $21,000 difference. To realize that you’re actually just as happy in a $4,000 car and in fact, maybe even a little happier knowing that you’re being savvy and smart. I get great joy out of buying the $5 Domino pizza. I get greater joy than buying the $150 look at me meal. I know that some people get off on that Instagram life and, “Look at my glamorous life. Look at me tossing my hair back.” But some people really like that’s what brings them joy. And they will tell you thoroughly to their core, “Javier, this is the life I’m choosing. I like my $150 dinners. I like having the best food in town. This is the lifestyle I want. I will work harder to make $1 million so I can live this lifestyle. This makes me happy.”
Derek Sivers
MJ something, “The Millionaire Fastlane”, he put forth his argument somewhere in that book that he said, “You know what? I like Ferraris. I like fast, expensive cars. They make me really happy.” He said, “You can tell me that I shouldn’t be driving it, and I will ignore you because I know myself. I know that this is what I like to do. So I want to make more money so that I can have crazy, fast, expensive cars. They make me really happy.” I’m like, all right, great. If that’s really to the core, what you want. And that’s not some kind of stepping stone to get status, then good for you. You know, you’ve got expensive tastes so be it. Same with people who love horses. You know, same with people who love, I don’t know, going to see the Titanic underwater. But for the rest of us, that could be happy reading books, being with friends, life can be very cheap. And so my concrete advice is not some like, “Hey kid, here’s how to make more money quick.” It’s hey kid, here’s how to be happier with having less. And I think it comes from getting to know more people that have successfully made that choice.
Javier
Mentors.
Derek Sivers
Or peers. You don’t have to think of them as mentors. Just knowing other people that are happy living with less, I think, is probably the best thing you could do.
Javier
And that’s very stoic. And Mr. Sivers, I think it was a great interview. We covered a lot of ground here.
Derek Sivers
Javier that ended up being one of the broadest interviews I’ve done. From you asking me if I was single to stock market investing to you know Krishnamurti. Thank you for being such a broad interviewer. That’s why when you emailed me, I say no to more interview requests than I say yes to. And when are you interviewed me and I checked out your stuff. I went, “Okay, this guy is cool. Yes, I would like to do your show.” So thank you for having me and anybody listening to this. I really love meeting strangers from around the world. I actually really love my email inbox. I live on an island in the middle of the Pacific Ocean. It makes me really happy to be connected to people from around the world. So send me an email, introduce yourself, go to my website. I don’t do social media. Just go to sive.rs, that’s my website and say hello.
Javier
All right, Derek, thank you so much. And maybe we’ll talk again and look forward to seeing you. I wish you the best with your new book.
Derek Sivers
Thank you very much.