Dad Mindset
host: Rich Bolus
parenting, storytelling in parenting, importance of attention, letting kids explore, shifting perspectives on challenges
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Transcript:
Rich
So, Derek, it’s so good to finally meet you. And I’m just really excited to have a chat with you today.
Derek Sivers
Thanks, Rich. It’s my favorite subject.
Rich
Right? Well, I’m glad you said that because I mean, you know, it’s mine too. But I’ve followed your work for years now, and some of the best lessons that I apply daily are stories you’ve told. Because I think stories are just the way I learn so much better. And I’ll give you an example. So the circus, when you were ringmaster for a day, I think it was. That story about how your boss pulled you aside and said, “Look, it’s not about you looking good. It’s about how good the audience feel.” That’s one of those stories. And can you just quickly tell that story because it’s made such an impact on me with how I try and show up. I think it’s amazing.
Derek Sivers
Sure, I was 18 years old and not trying to be an entertainer as much as I was just trying to be a successful musician. But as a musician on the scene in Boston at the time, I got a call from an agent who said, we’re looking for a guitarist. I answered the call. I got the gig, and at first I thought I was just the musician in the circus. But then they said, “Okay. Hey, look, the previous musician used to go out at the beginning of every show and welcome the audience and sing the theme song.” I said, “Okay, I can do that.” And then the next week they said, “Okay, look, the previous musician also used to close every show and kind of thank the audience for coming.” I said, “Alright, I can do that.” And a week later they said, “And the previous musician used to go out in between every single act and introduce the next act.” And eventually it became clear, oh, wow, I’m the ringleader. But this was a few weeks in and I was 18 years old, and I was being the ringleader of a circus. But I had the personality that a lot of teenagers would have at that time, which was, you put me on a microphone and I’m like, “Hey, everybody, uh, welcome to the show. I guess.” You know, and so the guys in the circus were saying, “No, no, come on, you got to make it more entertaining.”
Derek Sivers
I say, “All right, fine.” And so I went out there and say, “Uh, hey, everybody, welcome to the show. I guess.” They said, “No, come on. More entertaining.” And I got so angry at this pushback that I went out, like, passive aggressively. I said, “All right, fine. I’ll show them.” And I went out there. I was like, “Ladies and gentlemen, what you’re about to see is one of the most amazing things you’re about to see. We’re going to have elephants or this or that. You are about to see the most amazing juggler you’ve ever seen. And coming up in three minutes wait here for the mime circus.” And I went backstage like, “There I did it. Did what you said. Now quit asking.” And they were all like, “That was awesome. That was great.” I went, “Wait, are you serious? You actually want me to keep acting ridiculous like that?” They said “Yes. That was great. That was funny. That was entertaining. That was exciting.” And I went, “Huh? Wow. Okay. I was being sarcastic, but all right.” But then you realize that, yeah, I was being “authentic”. Which is a funny term that a lot of people attach positive meaning to. You know, you got to be your authentic self. Well, that was me being authentic on the mic. And that was not the most considerate thing for other people.
Rich
Yeah, I love it. So How do you think that applies to being a parent?
Derek Sivers
I was waiting for you to ask.
Rich
Yeah, I’ve taken so many different ways from that. But what are your thoughts on that?
Derek Sivers
Because think of the parenting version of that which is you’re tired, you’re busy, and your kid walks into the room and says, “Hey, want to play hide and seek?” And your authentic answer is, “Fuck no, I’m tired. I’m busy. I don’t want to play hide and seek right now.” That’s the authentic response. That’s how you’re actually feeling. But then you remember that’s not what my kid needs. My kid needs my full engagement. And he’s only going to be a kid once. So in that moment, I have my authentic response privately, And I think he deserves better than that. So kind of like acting that way on the circus. I’m like, I’ll do something like I’ll even look at him with a look like I’m busy, and then I’ll cover my eyes and go, 20, 19. And he’ll get so excited. He’ll go hide, you know, or say, like, if I hear him wake up in the morning, I hear him stirring in bed. And I’m also tired, but I know he’s awake. I’ll actually, like, get down on my hands and knees and open his door like a dog. And I’ll go and I’ll go jump on bed. I’ll go. So, you know, even if I’m tired, I just, I play the part that’s needed. And he’s so thankful.
Rich
So thankful. Because in your book you actually said you’ve been given the title of best dad ever. And you mentioned it’s because of those two minutes, like two minutes to actually play that part, step into that role. And what was it you said? Like getting past your first emotional reaction. Just push through that first emotional reaction. That’s a great title.
Derek Sivers
All the great stuff in life happens is when you take even 10s to think past your first instinctive, emotional response to something. This is the stuff that keeps us out of jail. You know, like somebody insults you on the street. And if you act purely on impulse, well, then you might, you know, beat them over the head with something, but you just like you take one second and you go, “They don’t know me. I don’t know them. They’re not yelling at me. That was just stupid.” And you just walk on. And that’s what keeps us out of jail. And that’s what keeps us good parents, is in that moment when you’re tired, you’re angry. Your kid says something stupid. I don’t know. Or makes a big mistake for the 20th time. And your impulse goes. But then you catch yourself and you go, “It’s all right. Here, let’s work on this. Let me show you one more time.” Whatever it is.
Rich
And you never regret, like, dropping the--. It’s almost like the little part of you inside that just wants to let them know that it was really frustrating what they did. But if you go there, then you regret that massively. Whereas if you just walk past that and you put that to one side and then you do the do the two minutes or whatever. You never regret that. So it’s almost like you get to choose the regrets that you have, and you never regret stepping through that initial response, stepping over it, I should say. Well, I don’t anyway.
Derek Sivers
I’d never heard it put that way. But you’re right that you want to let them know how frustrating that was. Isn’t that where a lot of that parental anger comes from the inner child?
Rich
The inner child.
Derek Sivers
“No that’s really not okay. Do you see how angry I am right now?” But God, I mean, how many people does that screw up for life? When they say like, “Oh, you know, I don’t like sharing my feelings with anyone because I had a dad with a bad temper.” And people can get scared for life because their parents thought it was important to show you how angry I am, you know?
Rich
Yeah. And or judging, like, straight up judging without sort of inquiring first. And I think the biggest thing for me was just being quick to apologize whenever I picked up on that. You know and I think that it’s not it’s not the best move, but it’s certainly helped in the early stages when I was trying to recognize when I was doing that sort of thing, “Oh, hey, what I just said was not okay. I just want to let you know that I’m actually trying to get around that.” And that went a fair way. But yeah, it’s hard when you, you come with all the baked in sort of reactions. Yeah, especially when you’re tired. Now, I did not want to forget to ask you about rats, because I know that many people would be very surprised to think that rats can be amazing pets. So I’ve just got to put that in there now so I don’t forget. Okay, so tell me about the rats.
Derek Sivers
Let’s back up to mice. Let’s actually first back up to what I grew up in America calling a potato bug. I think you call it a strider. No, no, it’s like the thing that curls into a ball when it gets scared.
Rich
In England, we call it a woodlouse.
Derek Sivers
Really?
Rich
Yeah.
Derek Sivers
Okay. I think down here they call it Strider or slider or something like that. Oh, yeah. Okay.
Rich
Slater in Australia.
Derek Sivers
Slater. There you go. Slater. So, Pillbug. Potato bug. Slater. Woodlice. My boy was four and we were playing on the playground and he saw a little I’m going to say potato bug. And he just started following it and then started like caring for it. And then he started keeping it in his hand and he said, “Can I keep it as a pet?” And I said, “I guess.” And I quickly, you know, pulled out my phone. I was like, you know, “What, do potato bugs eat? Or can you keep them as pets?” And somebody said that, yeah, they’ve kept a potato bug as a pet for months and here’s what to feed it. And I said yeah we can because he never had a pet. And so I said, “Yeah, let’s do it.” So he cared for it. We brought it to the restaurant at lunch that day, and he carried it around, and he gave it a name, and he was making little nests. And you could just tell he it was bringing something out of him. It was bringing this nurturing side out of him. You could tell that he just instantly loved nurturing and caring for something. And then mere hours after finding it, he accidentally dropped it on the floor as I was walking. And I stepped on it.
Derek Sivers
I didn’t know, he told me afterwards. And he just like showed me this like flat, squishy thing with its guts spewing out. And he said, “I don’t think he’s moving.” And then I said, “Oh, he died. He died.” I said, “Yeah, he died. I stepped on it, I’m so sorry.” And he cried and cried for like ten solid minutes. Longest I think I’d ever seen him cry since he was a baby. And so as he’s in his room crying and he said, “I need to be alone for a minute.” And I called the local pet store and I said, “What small pets do you recommend?” I said, “We can’t have a dog or a cat, because I live in an apartment where no pets allowed. So what small pet do you recommend?” And they said, “Actually, mice are good pets.” I said, M”ice? Don’t they bite?” He said, “No, no no they’re--.” And here’s what they explained. All right. Here’s the key point for people listening that think like mice or rats or weird pets, think of the difference between a wild dog and a poodle, right? Or like a coyote or a wolf and a poodle. That’s the difference between a wild mouse and a pet mouse, or a wild rat and a pet rat that they’ve been bred over generations to be gentle, you know, they breed the gentlest ones, and then they have kids, and then they breed the gentlest ones again.
Derek Sivers
They are so gentle and sweet and cuddly like a poodle. Okay. Anyway, so we got a mouse and loved the mouse so much that we learned that mice don’t like to be alone. So we got two more mice. So we had three mice for three years. And he loved those mice. He carried the mice with him in his pockets. We took them out to play. Those were very beloved mice. And even I cried the hardest I’ve ever cried in my life when that mouse died, which was just at the end of my newest book. I was finishing the book, and then the mouse died on my desk. I sobbed so hard for hours. Anyway, yeah. I really loved that mouse. And so my boy mentioned to an old friend of mine in Singapore, that we had pet mice, and she said, “Oh, if you think mice are good, wait till you have a pet rat.” And she apparently told him all the benefits of having a pet rat.
Derek Sivers
And this was while I wasn’t there. And so then he told me that he wanted to get a pet rat and I thought he was kidding. I was like, “Oh no way. I draw the line there. I’m not getting a pet rat. That’s gross. That’s awful.” I used to live in New York City. I killed so many rats. I used to live in a basement apartment down by the trash room, and just every week I’d come home to find a rat outside my front door. So I laid rat traps. I killed so many rats, I hate them. And so I thought he was kidding when he said pet rats. Then he showed me some YouTube videos. I went, “Oh, my God. Wow. Okay, rats look great.” And I looked into it. Sure enough, they’re even better than mice. They control their bladders, they use a litter box. So whereas like the problem with mice, as cute as they were, they have no control over their bodily functions. So they would just poop and pee all over you. They just couldn’t help it. You know? Rats, they can help it. So they don’t. They’re like cats. They don’t like to just poop everywhere. They only like to poop in their litter box.
Derek Sivers
So they go to their litter box. And I have never, ever been pooped--. We’ve had them for months now, and the rats are so sweet and they fall asleep on me and they’re cuddly, whereas like mice are, you know, they’ll let you pet them, but they don’t love it. Whereas rats actually like to be petted, they like to curl up and sleep on your lap. And they’re so sweet. Yeah, rats are great pets. And the final lesson I’ll say that I love about this is the joy of overcoming a prejudice. You know, like, if you used to think that all religious people are fanatics, and then you find out that they’re not. And you used to think that all people from this place are crazy, and you find out they’re not. And then you think you used to think that rats and mice are bad or you would never want one as a pet, and then you find out they’re actually really sweet. I just love when, over and over again, you get over a prejudice. You know, a musical style that you used to think was terrible. And now you appreciate. Sporting events that you used to think were awful, that now you can find the fun in. And yeah rats as pets.
Rich
But that’s been the story of your life, hasn’t it, since you left the US. You actually made that conscious decision to go, “Right. I’ve got to get out of this environment to actually push myself into an uncomfortable space.” And it changed your whole trajectory, didn’t it?
Derek Sivers
Yeah. Although it’s funny. Okay. You know, here we are on a parenting podcast. We all know the compromises we meet, that we are not the only person on earth anymore, that we need to find things that work with the rest of the family. So if it were just me and actually, probably if it were just me and my boy, I think I’d be living somewhere a lot more challenging right now. I would definitely be in China or India or somewhere like that. I really like living in challenging places and the learning experience it gives you every day. But his mother does not want those daily challenges. And now works for the New Zealand government. So that’s why I’m here in super comfortable New Zealand, not in super challenging China.
Rich
But it’s a phase isn’t it? Because there’s the extra ordinary sort of care phase. And then that sort of relaxes a bit as time goes on. And I imagine you’ve got a timeline when you can start going on way more adventures or what have you got lined up, what’s on the, on the cards?
Derek Sivers
Oh well, I like not knowing. Okay, so my boy is 12 right now. And like I said, he also wants to live all around the world, but also wants to be with his mother, of course. So we are here probably for another six years or so. But yeah, once he’s 18 and off to uni or whatever. I plan to just keep living around the rest of the world for the rest of my life.
Rich
Awesome. Now, one of the things I think I read about you when your son was younger, and this goes back to the potato bug thing as well. The amount of time that you would actually just lean into what he wanted to do. You would follow his lead. Can you talk to that a little bit, Derek? Because I think that was golden.
Derek Sivers
Thanks. I felt like I needed to preface this conversation at the start by saying some of the stuff I’m going to be talking about today is really unfair, because I sold my company and basically retired just two years before my only boy was born. And so I was in a mindset where I was ready to give this 100%. You know, I was 42 years old when he was born, right? I had already had my career and made a lot of money. And I was able to, when he was born, just stop everything and give him 100% of my attention. But we could say that was just good luck. Except I remember all the way back to when I was a teenager and I was into the Beatles, and I read that John Lennon did that with his second son, Sean. So when his first son, Julian, was born, that was like the height of Beatlemania. He couldn’t even publicly admit that he had a kid or a wife. He had to keep that secret for the fans so they could have their crushes. So he completely neglected his first son, Julian. So then, at the age of 30, when his second son, Sean, that he had with Yoko Ono was born.
Derek Sivers
He told his agent, “Stop everything. Say no to everything. I don’t want to do any gigs, no appearances, nothing. I’m just going to be a full time dad for five years. I’m going to give Sean everything. I’m going to give him my full attention.” And I remember as a teenager hearing that going, “Yeah, someday if I have a kid, that’s what I’m going to do. I’m going to stop everything and give him my full attention.” So I’d like to think that I would have done this anyway, even if I didn’t have a lot of money saved up, that I would have just found a way to just live somewhere cheap, you know, and just find a way to just give my kid my full attention. Because it seems so important. It seems like attention is the ultimate currency for a kid. Just give your kid your full attention. No phones, no work, no other distractions. No sitting there watching the game and just ignoring your kid. That seems to be the root of what kids really want is just the attention. And then if you give them the attention, you get to know them so much more and they understand that you know them, and then they feel free to open up and share.
Derek Sivers
And then they feel open to your wisdom, your feedback, your communication in general. Whereas like the cliché of the teenager that says, like, “You don’t even know me. Shut up.” And if the parent tries to say something smart, the teenager just says, “Why would I listen to you? You don’t know me at all.” Right? And that all starts from the early, early age of you looking at your phone instead of looking at your kid. But instead, if you give your kid your full attention, they know that you know them. And when you say something like, well, I’m not going to make a dumb example, if you were to share some parental insight or guidance, they would know that it’s really for them that you understand them. So all of this is to say, I just wanted to preface all this to say I understand I’ve kind of had an unfair luxury of being able to give my kid my full attention since he was born. And here we are, it’s 12 years later and I’ve given him. I counted on average 30 hours per week of my undivided attention.
Rich
That’s awesome.
Derek Sivers
Every week, just about 30 hours on average. Not doing anything else. Phone is off. Computer is off. Just, you know, face to face, side by side with him leading the way, giving my full attention. And I’ve loved it. It’s been initially doing it for him, but to me, it also has a meditative effect because I’m no expert in meditation. But I think the gist of meditation is you get thoughts that come into your head and you just let them go right back out again. It’s like you don’t dwell on them, you just let it pass. And so I think it’s the same thing if you’re busy with work, if you’re stressed about something, even if you’re tired, you just let it go. Continue to bring your attention back to your kid, like meditation and those other feelings and things will pass. By the way, did I just hear a magpie in the background?
Rich
Yeah. They’re waking up.
Derek Sivers
The warbling magpies are the most beautiful. Oh, I love that. We have a few of them here in New Zealand. There’s none of those in America. That warbling magpie that’s really just a down under thing. I love that sound so much. Anyway, I’m sorry I took a bit of a tangent from your question.
Rich
No, that was spot on. And I think what it sort of made me think about is a friend once said that, like, kids spell love t-i-m-e. And it’s so true. But I think even though you did have that sort of luxury of abundant time, you know, you put yourself in that very fortunate position. I want to put a pin in, because also, I love the idea that you’d actually sow the seed for that 20 odd years previously. But I think we can still snatch those minutes. It doesn’t matter necessarily the time. I think the time is wonderful when you can have that. But even if you can just be 100% for two minutes like that is a big ask, I think, for a lot of people. Like, because this whole idea of like so many balls up in the air, multitasking, you know, I’m just doing this thing. I mean, how many times have I found myself as a parent saying, “Oh, hang on a minute, I’ve just got to finish this thing.” But then forgetting to follow up. And so it’s terrible because I can remember those times. And then I’m trying desperately to either set a reminder, set alarm, or hey, I’ll just set an alarm on the phone and then you got me. And then committing and going off and it’s Will that calls me on this.
Rich
The girls. I think I’ve missed the boat a bit because I didn’t do this stuff as much. Whereas I think with Will, I’ve sort of tried to make up for some of the things that I didn’t do that I wanted to do. And, and he calls me on it and he’ll say, “Hey, the alarms going off, let’s go.” And so then it’s like, okay, drop everything. Let’s go. And so even though I’ve still got a job, I like to think that if you can just commit to even just like the tiny habits, think two minutes or something like that, but leave 100% and it’s really hard when there’s so many things going through your mind. But the other thought that came to mind when you were talking about that meditative state. It reminded me of driving across Australia when I first came to Australia. And it’s a ridiculously big place, as you know. We drove for a whole day from Melbourne, heading towards Perth, and after an entire day of driving, I looked at the map and went, “Oh wow, we must be about halfway.” And the other passengers just burst out laughing. They were Aussies. They went, “That’s hilarious, we’re actually there and we’d moved about three centimetres.” I was devastated because it dawned on me just how long I was going to have to sit in a car seat.
Rich
It was phenomenal. But when I sort of relaxed into it, We’d be driving along, and I loved the back seat more than anything. I mean, driving is one thing, but the back seat was the best because there’s loads of gear in the car and there was a pillow and just leant against the pillow, looked out the window for say, an hour and a half at a time. And you just watch like really monotonous scenery. Drift by, drift by, drift by. And then there’d be one thing different, like a tree would go past. And then you just go back to this, like, monotonous territory, and then there’d be a kangaroo. Ah. And then it would go past. Sometimes the kangaroo would be running alongside for a while, but then you’d start picking up thoughts and you just pick up a thought and you just mull it around a bit and then let it go. And I think that’s the closest I’ve actually felt to that, sort of the way people talk about meditation, picking up a thought, holding onto it for a while and then letting it go. And it was wonderful. And I just cannot recommend enough anyone just take a long train ride or a long car ride and just don’t engage. Just be in the back seat and look out the window. It was amazing.
Derek Sivers
Or the kid version of that, which is like, I would take him when he was 1 or 2 years old, just take him out to the beach or to the forest and just sit. Just sit on a log and kids will just play and just the sand. Just things like picking up sand and watching it fall into his hand, or just lining up shells and taking two hours to just put shells into a circle or whatever that was. The pace of his infancy was about like that. It was a lot of many hours just spent in a field or in a beach or definitely going slow and with him noticing all the details of life. And it just it made me really happy. I mean, it’s actually why I moved here. I moved to New Zealand for him. I was living in Singapore before he was born, so that’s where I wanted to be this, like exciting. It felt like living in the future, this really fascinating place. And then he was born in Singapore, and initially I thought he was going to grow up in Singapore. But after about six months, I saw that kids who grew up in Singapore, they grew up in apartments and shopping malls and condominiums and no connection with the real physical, natural world. And something felt off to me about that. So I thought like, “I really want my kid to grow up in nature. I don’t feel like going back to America. So what would be the most nature filled place to raise a kid?”
Derek Sivers
Went, “Well, New Zealand would be nice.” I was like, “Well, let me see what it would take to move to New Zealand.” Looked up the requirements and did about nine months of paperwork and became a legal resident of New Zealand. Just so that he could grow up in nature here. Especially having come from Singapore, the urban jungle, once I got here with the wide open fields and beaches. So just every morning, I would just take my boy out as soon as he woke up at 6 a.m. or whatever. As soon as he woke up. No screens. First rule out of the house immediately. Just within minutes of him waking up. I just, you know, change his nappy. Put a coat on, put a hat on, and we’d just go out and just go out into the into nature at 6 a.m. and just spend hours just looking at details of leaves or dead wood or whatever it is. You know, it’s really shaped who he is. He’s still got a really long attention span, whereas his friends plow through games on Roblox or whatever. He really likes the physical world and long attention span. I think it’s because he grew up that way.
Rich
Well, what sort of things would he apply that attention to at the moment?
Derek Sivers
So when we were moving from a little apartment to a house, I first had to decide, like, “Oh, wow, a house. Am I going to do this? This is a big step.” I was like, I don’t really want a house. And there was this big room in the center that was clearly like the core heart of the house. So it was the living room. It had a fireplace or actually wood burning stove. The best views with all the windows around. It was just really the heart of the home. I was like, but I don’t watch TV and I don’t like sitting around on couches doing nothing. So I don’t feel comfortable with this being the main room of the house. And I said, wait a second, it doesn’t have to be the living room. This can be the creative room. I was like, let’s dub it the “making room”. And so that’s what we did. I decided to buy this house because this is going to be the making room. And sure enough, I got three, 2.2m long tables. Chunk by chunk on each wall. Um, rough tables. You know, he’s free to mess up and spill paint on it, and that’s fine. Um, it was a wood floor, so little Lego bits can fall into it. No carpeting. And that is the biggest room. The core of the house is the making room. So that’s where he has spent most of his time. After the age of, I think 6 or 7 when we got the house, is making things.
Derek Sivers
So he wakes up and the first thing he does, he goes to the making room, and sometimes I’ll still even be asleep at 6 a.m. and I’ll hear this kind of, you know, bang, bang, bang, bang, as he’s kind of taking a hammer and chiseling something, or whittling something or building something, or making a new tool or a weapon or he actually just about nine months ago at the age of 11, said, “Can I get a sewing machine?” I said, “Sewing machines are big and expensive. Are you sure?” He’s like, “I really, really, really want a sewing machine.” He said, “I’ve got a few projects I want to do. I want to make my own bag.” And he had like the design all laid out. He’s like, “Look, I need this color here and I’m going to put a big button there and it’s going to be like this scene from this movie. I want a bag like that character. And I figured out how I’m going to make it, but I need a sewing machine.” I went, “Okay.” So we went to a local sewing center, and we not only got the machine, but they gave him like three lessons afterwards, teaching him how to use it. He’s totally into it. So sometimes it’s like 6:30 in the morning all suddenly here a sound, and he’s sewing something, you know, to make a new bag or a new thing for the rats. So he likes to get up and make things.
Rich
Yeah. That’s amazing Derek. That’s because that sense of agency, like you don’t have to play within the constraints of what you can buy at the shops.
Derek Sivers
Oh, yeah.
Rich
He can just go, this is a whole new world. I love that.
Derek Sivers
Me too. It makes me really happy. It’s like, you know, sometimes I’m just asleep in the morning and I’m woken up by the sound of the sewing machine going. And I’m like, yeah. Big smile on my face. That’s my boy.
Rich
Yeah, yeah. Ali’s kind of had a similar thing just recently. She’s started ordering t-shirts and hoodies, like, with her own logos on because she’s like, “I can’t, I can’t get good stuff. Like, no one has the stuff I want.” And so she’s just been making up her own logos. Generally they sort of explain, you know, something-- I don’t know, funny or sarcastic or something. And it’s really cool that she can sort of just design that. And she doesn’t just have to take what’s on the shelves.
Derek Sivers
3D printer is good for that too. I was very lucky to be-- just found myself in conversation with a guy that was an expert on 3D printing and he said, “Do you have a 3D printer?” And I went, “No, no, no interest.” And he said, “No, dude.” He said, “If you were ever thinking of getting one, now’s the time.” He said, “A company called Bambu Labs just released something called the A1 mini.” He said “It is finally a truly beginner friendly 3D printer. Your kid won’t be able to mess it up. There’s nothing wrong. And you can put four colors to make the 3D prints more exciting. And the software is just as easy as can be. There’s no way to mess it up, Bambu labs A1 mini.” And I looked into it. It was only $500. I thought of 3D printers as these like $10,000 things. But it was $500 beginner friendly and it’s great. And that’s been one of his other biggest joys too, is the 3D printer we got, I think like eight different colors. And he wakes up with ideas and like you said, instead of thinking he needs to get something from the store, he’s looking at the world through. Like, “Here’s the thing I want, how can I make that?” And I just love that’s his first impulse. And now with a sewing machine and a 3D printer, which honestly, the sewing machine also was like 250 bucks. So worth it. $500 3D printer. It’s not that expensive. It’s totally worth it.
Rich
Totally. And but it does, it completely flips the mindset. All of a sudden it’s I go to the shops only if I can’t make this thing myself, not I go to the shops first. I love that now. I wanted to dive into the book and you said something just then that made me--. It was an amazing segue and I’ve just lost it. I’m sorry. I’ll pick this up. So with the making, when you have the tables set up, like, can you just explain, it’s cheap tables. Is it like paint tables? It’s like a studio. Would you call it a studio? Normally in this make room.
Derek Sivers
I guess so. I mean, just imagine a living room, but with no sofas. And the tables are actually sturdy. They’re not that like the flimsy Ikea that wobble.
Rich
No trestles. Yeah, yeah.
Derek Sivers
Yeah. I went and got the big giant, you know, heavy, but with like the rough wood on top. So one of them was made from old scaffolding. So it was like deliberately kind of rough wood that had some markings on it, but like big heavy. So you could pound it. You clamp an anvil to it and you can saw things and pound on it. And but on the other hand, we can also clear one off and one spent years just being the dedicated Lego table. It was just always Lego out there, which is, you know, the flat boards that you set up the scenarios on and all of that. Yeah then he got into Lego animation for a while. There’s like a bit of software that you can just set up your phone or your iPad or whatever, pointing at your Lego and a software where you can move things one bit at a time, and it instantly makes Lego animation for you. And that’s badass to make your own movies as a seven year old with Lego.
Rich
Yeah, totally. The girls totally got into that. And so they they saw Death Star Canteen, the sketch from Eddie Izzard’s definite article. That had been recreated in a Lego scene. It’s hilarious. And so they started-- what’s it called? It’s the app. I’ll put the app in the show notes, but it’s cool. Like you say you just need a little stand, don’t you? So the phone stays still. And then it’s amazing. Like the things that the kids can create just by doing time lapse or stop motion. Stop motion?
Derek Sivers
Yeah.
Rich
It’s so good. Legos just lends itself to that so well, even to the extent like they can have their characters dive into water and just cut the characters in half, and then they disappear under the Lego board, and then they can pop up over the other side and it’s ace. And so that idea of technology, like blending with old fashioned making, I guess, like because from the outside looking in, you look like a very tech savvy person. Like programming was very hard for you initially, but then it became very easy for you because you put a lot of time into it. What have you noticed with regard to bringing up your son around the technology, apart from like the 3D printers and that sort of thing?
Derek Sivers
Oh, actually, the the tech side of what I do is actually almost entirely in a Unix terminal. So if he ever sees me on a computer, which he does more now. You know, after the age of ten, I stopped, I think before the age of eight or so. I had a rule like my boy will never see me on a computer. I don’t want him to model the world that way, to think that the way to be a grown up is to be staring at a screen all the time. So I would make a point like that’s why I say, like, if I’d hear him wake up in the next room, I would quickly just, you know, shut down what I was doing and get down on my hands and knees and, you know, be the dog for him or the horse. But yeah, after the age of eight, nine, ten, somewhere around there, I started to let him see me working more. But all he really just sees is me typing on a black Unix terminal. I’m not much of a tech consumer. I don’t have whatever those things that you talk to around the house, I don’t have the hi, Siri, hi, Alexa things.
Derek Sivers
I don’t have a smart home. I don’t have devices everywhere. It’s really just my Linux computer that I type my programming code into. That’s it. It’s not a super tech filled house. No, but the big idea is--. I’m sharing my bias here, and I realize that I’m not saying this is the answer. But the way I wanted to nudge my kid was to be a creator, not a consumer, because I know that he’s going to be surrounded by kids in the opposite mindset, this consumer mindset that just wants to buy a thing, that just wants to buy an app, that just wants to play another game, buy a new game. And I kind of just taught him over and over early on, like, you know, it’s a little cool to play a game. It’s really cool to make a game. I said, you want to be the maker, not the consumer. Be the creator, not the consumer. And I think I’ve just instilled this into him from an early age, very deliberately.
Rich
Yeah. But it sounds like you actually play a lot when you’re on a computer. It sounds like what you do day in and day out is because you really want to be doing that.
Derek Sivers
Oh, yeah. Sorry. My definition of work is basically me time. Yeah. When I say work, that’s my translation for the rest of the world. For what to me really just means me time. It’s what I feel like doing.
Rich
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I find that really valuable as well you know, to just go squirrel myself in the garage and start, like, tinkering and then come out with something and go, “That was awesome.” That’s how I sort of fill my cup again. Most recently, I made a draw horse. I don’t know whether you’ve ever heard of those, but it’s this weird, ancient technology. But it’s like a vice that you sit on where when you push your feet, it clamps the piece of wood down, and so you can draw a blade towards you to actually carve wood. And it’s the most-- I think it’s one of the most gratifying craft things I’ve ever done, because you get these massive curls of wood coming off this piece, and as you move your feet, because the idea is as you go to pull the blade towards you with two hands, so you have friction on the wood. So normally you would drag the wood towards you, but you push your feet away on the stool and it clamps down harder. The harder you push your feet. So the more you pull with the blade, the harder the clamp clamps down because you’re pushing off, essentially clamping the wood down. I’ll show you a picture. But getting Will on that thing. He loved it and it was great to see him just just whittling wood is like, you know, one of those things where-- here we go. That’s what it looks like.
Derek Sivers
Oh, wow. All right.
Rich
Yeah, it’s full on--
Derek Sivers
I’ve seen it. I didn’t know how it worked.
Rich
Yeah, so they used to make it for making cartwheels and and things like that. The spokes for shaving, but there’s no point to that. That’s just like playing around and making stuff. And the minute like Will sat on there, he was just off and racing and Sarah does outdoor kinder and we would often run sessions with like dangerous tools and things like this and parents would be freaking out. We did like making bows and arrows and that sort of stuff. But then the kids are getting into whittling with like, proper knives and sawing bits of wood, and it was the best. Like, kids would just go nuts. They would just be off and racing because it’s like, oh, it’s a bit dangerous. I’m not allowed to do this at home, you know? And you know, Sarah would make him wear a safety glove and things like that. And no one got injured surprisingly, I was actually amazed. But it blew my mind how we had axes one day and they were like chopping little chops of wood with axes and stuff, and one kid made a little square of wood and got some felt tips and started drawing app icons on it and made a wooden phone. And I was like a full on head like slap moment for me. I was like, we’re in nature. Like we are in the middle of nature. You can’t see a building here. We’ve got a campfire going. There’s like, you know, kids are starting fires without matches. There’s kids making bows and arrows over there. And then this little boy in the corner has made an iPhone out of a piece of wood. And then all his mates started making them as well. And they were running around going, “This is the best I’ve made a phone.” And it was just like a little part of me died. I was like, oh, I love the idea that they’ve made something, but the fact that they’ve made a phone is a bit tragic.
Derek Sivers
Because if they observe the world, they see people making it clear that that’s the most precious item in the whole world.
Rich
Yeah, even more so than your kids. If you’re spending more time looking at that than them.
Derek Sivers
Hey, you brought up an interesting subject. That’s maybe my one of the most interesting things I’ve ever learned about parenting. And I heard this idea from Alison Gopnik, who wrote a brilliant book on parenting called “The Gardener and the Carpenter”. Alison Gopnik. Her books are wonderful. Okay, here’s the idea. I love this so much, “Broken bones heal faster than fears.” And I love that so much. There’s so many times when I see my kid holding a sharp tool. And I’m so tempted to go. “Ah! Be careful. Be careful.” Or if we’re down at the beach and he’s walking on the jagged rocks. And he’s near the edge. And everything in me is going like, “Ah! Be careful.” But I remember broken bones heal faster than fears. Like, don’t make him scared of the world. What’s the worst that can happen? He breaks an arm. Okay, it’s healed in a few months. But if you make him scared of the world that lasts for life. So.
Rich
That is so true. Derek, I love that. Yeah. Yes. Okay, I’m gonna take it on board. I think that’s brilliant. The whole idea of sort of risky play has definitely this-- I mean, when we grow up the playgrounds is everything. The whole thing, they were the riskiest things in the world. One, you could get, like, 20m off the ground on a massive rope pyramid or, you know, the thing was so badly maintained that, you know, your risk of getting tetanus at any moment just from the amount of rusty, sharp edges on it. But some of the best fun that I remember as a kid was just wandering through a field. And spending hours and hours in a field. That’s it. And the field that I’m remembering was probably only about two acres big. It wasn’t that big. It was surrounded by trees. Had some occasional cows and sheep in it, loads of barbed wire and rusty things in there. But there was nothing else to do except just explore and make stuff up, build dens, and we wouldn’t see our parents until dinner time.
Rich
We were off and racing, and I think that’s one thing that it’s really-- I don’t know what’s happening, but, you know, we’re so precious and we want to protect and know where our kids are and stuff. But when we think back, actually, they’ve got to learn. They’ve got to be set free so that they can actually, you know, gain their own agency. You know, at the end of the day, they are their own people. You know, we can’t be passing on those fears around how bad the world is without it harming them. And how much do you let the reins go with sort of autonomy?
Derek Sivers
Yes.
Derek Sivers
Oh, you can probably predict what I’m going to say.
Rich
Yeah. Yeah.
Derek Sivers
In the same way that I just described biting my tongue when I’m tempted to say be careful. I might say it once, you know, but I don’t hammer him with be careful. Same thing with him wanting autonomy to just go out and play. God, you know, I’m going to tell you a little story. This is the appropriate venue for this story. Okay, so I bought a piece of land. It used to be like a bit of a garbage dump, in this neighborhood. So during Covid, it was for sale on the equivalent of eBay. There was just one jpeg photo of some grass, and the the ad said “Land” and I went, and I put an offer on the land, and the offer was accepted. So for a really cheap price, I got ten hectares of land, which is 40 acres with a creek running through it. It’s mostly forest, but one clear bit of platform where I’m going to put a cabin. There’s nothing there yet, but I own ten hectares of forest land with a creek running through it. The neighbour, when I moved in there, said something about that there is a wild boar in the forest, but he hasn’t seen it in years.
Derek Sivers
And I thought, you know, maybe that’s true. Maybe that’s not. So it was really interesting that just a few weeks ago, my boy at the age of 12 said, “Dad, I want to I want to go off on my own in the forest, this Saturday and just do some exploring and maybe set up a cabin.” And I went, “Okay, set up a cabin. All right.” So he put great care into packing his backpack, and he was excited. So it’s about a half an hour drive from where we actually live to this piece of land. So I brought a book, drove him at 10:00 on a Saturday morning. And I’m going to add one more bit of preface here. When we moved to New Zealand, I bought a memorable phone number, so that even as he was like a little kid off playing with his friends or even just school for the day. I’d ask him over and over again, “What’s my phone number? You know, he’d say, 0221--.” And I’d say, “Got it.” So it was worth a few hundred dollars to buy a vanity phone number that was easy for him to remember at a young age. And ever since then, I kind of constantly ask him to make sure he’s got it off the top of his head, right? Okay, so we go to the forest.
Derek Sivers
He said, “Okay, I’ll see you in a few hours.” I said, “Okay.” And I just sit in the car and I’m reading a book. He doesn’t have his phone with him. He’s just off in the forest. So he goes in the forest, and about 2.5 hours later, I got a call from an unknown number and he said, “Hey, dad, um, I’m at a stranger’s house, I got lost, can you come get me?” I said, “Sure, put them on the phone.” They gave me the address. I got in the car, picked him up. He was covered in mud, and he said, “Well, that was strange.” And he said, “I just had one of the scariest things ever happen to me.” And so he told me over lunch that he walked off into the forest. He started exploring. He went down the creek, and then he turned to the right, and he found himself face to face, three metres away with the wild boar, the tusks and everything. And it was staring at him. He was staring at it. He gently, quietly, slowly put his hand on his big knife that he had made, a real knife. We actually went to a blacksmith and made a Bowie knife because that was his dream.
Derek Sivers
So he had his Bowie knife with him. He was going to fight it to the death if he had to, but luckily it turned away. So he ran. So he ran down the hill, tumbling down the hill. And luckily, you know, he wasn’t sure if it was going to chase him or not. He was scared that it might. He went down the hill and suddenly he found himself face to face with 20 dead rabbits hanging from a rope. And he was like, “Ah!” But then he realized that he was now in somebody’s yard, that the 20 dead rabbits were kind of at the edge of the forest in somebody’s yard. So he got his hand back on his knife again, and he went up to the door. Not sure what psychopath that hangs up dead rabbits was going to answer the door, but he said, you know, I’m lost. I don’t know how to get back to my dad. So he knocked on the door and a really pretty girl his age answered. And he goes, “Oh, hi.” And he said, “I’m lost.” And she said, “Oh, dad.” So she calls her dad. And luckily he had my phone number memorized so he could say to that, “Hey, can you call my dad?” Yeah.
Derek Sivers
Here’s his phone number. So that was his story of what happened. But just to let him go off into the woods by himself for 2.5 hours, required a lot of trust. And I mean, it was one of the best adventures of his life. He’s been talking about it ever since and told all his friends, “You know, I stare down a wild boar and how badass.” We ended up retracing his steps and he showed me where. He said, “See this little notch of wood on the tree?” He said, “That’s what I was carving when I saw the boar.” And he said, and that’s where he was standing. And sure enough, it was only three meters away. It was right there. And I told the neighbor, we went back and found the neighbor later, and I thanked him and he said, “Yeah, there’s there are some wild boar here. We see them occasionally.” And anyway, that’s that’s my story of trust but letting your kid go off on their own, just so good for them. So much autonomy, so much agency, you know, to know that he did this, I mean, 12 years old, to go off for hours on his own in a forest. I love it.
Rich
Yeah. And it’s his story. It’s not like you’ve taken him somewhere. He’s gone on a hike. That’s, like, sanctioned and all that sort of stuff. It’s like he was the author of that story. That’s so good. And it’s a rite of passage, like we have to let go. Otherwise, you know, people don’t become themselves. Yeah. And especially around that age, I mean, it’s sort of well known that, you know, sort of 12, 13 boys and girls need to almost go away camping on their own. Like to really just have that sort of separation and okay, it’s me. It’s up to me. Like, I’ve got to do this now.
Derek Sivers
Yeah. You know, we hear this advice for little kids that you you let them choose, right? You instead of saying, we’re having such and such for dinner, you say, do you want this or such and such for dinner? And they go, “I want that one.” You say, okay. And they love that feeling of choosing, right? I started doing that as soon as he could learn to talk, constantly letting him choose. And I guess this is the next version of that, isn’t it?
Rich
Yeah, yeah yeah. The way I got around that would be like putting different things in different bowls. It’s like, yep, have at it. You make your plate. And because it would be pretty frustrating to have everything lined up for you, have no choice in anything. What you wear, where you go, who you hang out with, what you eat. It’s pretty demoralizing, actually. So yeah, the more agency, the better. And I think if we’re honest as parents, I mean, I’m going to speak for parents in general here. So it’s going to be wrong. But personally I just want to have a good relationship with the older kids, like when they grow up. That’s kind of what I’m keeping an eye on. I just want to be able to hang out with my kids and have them actually want to hang out with me. It’s kind of a selfish thing, but that’s kind of my goal. And like the decisions I make, it’s like, is this actually helping that or hindering that? And I think that’s been a really good sort of guiding light for me. You know, and if you’re in a situation where, you know, obviously you got to put certain certain boundaries on that. And I struggle with that sometimes. But at least if I’ve got that sort of guiding light, that’s that’s what I’m after.
Derek Sivers
My version of that is constantly reminding him to be completely honest with me, even if he thinks I’m going to be disappointed in the truth, even if he thinks the truth might upset me the way I put it to him, it’s great. He’s 12 now, so we have these philosophical conversations. As I say, “Look, if you don’t tell me the truth, you’ll never feel loved. Because you’ll always feel that. I just love the facade that you’re putting.” I said, “So don’t worry. I’m always on your side. If you think I’m going to be disappointed. If you think I’m going to be upset, just be brave and tell me anyway.” I said, “Because haven’t I always been on your side?” He said, “Yeah.” I said, “So don’t worry about it. Always tell me the truth because that lets me love the real you.” I said, “I always want to love the real you, not the facade.”
Rich
Yeah, I love the way you frame that because I’ve been thinking about--. I try and say it, and I struggle with the way to say that. And I’ve tried along the lines of I love everything about you. It doesn’t matter what you do or what you choose to do or who you are. I’m always going to love just you, but it just doesn’t seem to sit quite well at the moment because it sounds like I’m still being a bit judgy when it comes out of my mouth. But I love the way you’ve put that that, you know, just tell the truth, because I really do love everything about you. And I think that demonstration of just be totally honest, I don’t know. I haven’t figured out how to say it. Well, that sort of works.
Derek Sivers
Maybe it’s not the saying, but the doing. Something that we’ve done a couple of times that he seems to really like is I’ll say, “Here, let’s prove it.” I said, “Tell me a secret, tell me something that you’re keeping secret.” And a few times he has and he’ll say, like, “Okay.” I don’t know. I’ll just make up something he’ll be like, I pooped in the backyard. And I just laugh and I’ll say, no way. And I’m like, again, I’ll like, be on his side like a friend. I’m like, “That’s so cool. You poop in our backyard.” I said, “Why?” And he said, “I just didn’t feel like coming inside.” He said. And then he stopped and he said, “Actually, I was scared that if you came inside, it would. You would tell me it was time to stay inside. So I didn’t want you to tell me it was time to stay inside because I was having fun outside. But I really had to poo. So, yeah, I pooed in the backyard.” I said, “That was a good move. That was really smart.” I said, “Actually, I like the way you thought it through, because, yeah, if you would have come inside, you’re right. I might have said, ‘Hey, do you want to stay in?’” He said, “See?” I said, “Well, cool.” And he said, “You’re not mad?” I said, “No, I’m impressed at your thought process.” So the point is, instead of, you know, what thing can I say to my kids. Instead it’s like, well, let’s just show them through example. Ask them to reveal something they’re keeping a secret because they think you’ll be upset. Like, you know, let’s do it. Safe space right now. You know, next five minutes, nothing will upset me, I promise. Go ahead. Try me. Tell me the most upsetting thing you can think of. Now it’s a game, you know.
Rich
Yeah, I love that. Because what I’ve tried to do is actually sort of tell them secrets first. Like explain times when I messed up or, “Oh, man, you wouldn’t believe this. One time I was so embarrassed. You know, I did this thing, and then this happened.” And I think telling stories, that’s what I’ve really leant into over the past few months. And it’s been really great because then they’re starting to come back with their own stories because they feel like it’s safe, because my dad has told me some pretty weird stuff that went wrong for him, and that’s been a great way to do it. It was actually Matthew Dix mentioned a game called 321, and the idea is like a structure that can help sort of kick this off. It’s like they give you three proper nouns. They just choose three proper nouns, any words, and then you have one minute to think of a story that you tell for up to two minutes, and it’s a really cool game when you’re driving because you know you’ve got time on your hands. But what it does is it actually opens up all sorts of memories, because they may say something like, I don’t know, um, confetti or, you know, um, I don’t know, baths or football.
Rich
And it just casts you back to like, your childhood or, you know, and pings these amazing sort of thoughts out of nowhere that probably wouldn’t have come to the surface any other way. And then you’ve got to pull it into a story and then tell that story. So they learn so much more about you than you would ever proffer up. And then, you know, you can repeat it back. And I think one of the examples was Matthew said his son actually owned up to breaking a window and being so worried about the fact that his dad was going to be mad with him for breaking the window. And so he ended up figuring out two days later that the window wasn’t broken. He just couldn’t put the slats back in. The son did, and so he actually fixed the window on his own after three days of worrying. But Matthew would never have known that had they not been playing that game of, like, sharing stories. And so yeah, I think putting the two together would be amazing. So yeah, show it and tell stories at the same time. Stories are so powerful. I love stories.
Derek Sivers
Yeah. You mentioned remembering my circus story, but, you know, it’s funny, for this new book I just finished called “Useful Not True”. The previous book I wrote called “How to Live”, deliberately had no stories in it. It was just directives. I was just trying to compress everything I’d ever learned into succinct directives. And so that’s what that book is. But I realized, all right, that had no stories at all. And yet to me, some of the most memorable books I’ve ever read in the past are the ones that have memorable stories like while reading it, vividly picture it in my head. And because it’s a picture in my head now, it’s more easily called to mind in a situation. I could relate to. So for my new book, I over and over and over again, instead of just saying what I wanted to say, I’d find a story that relates what I wanted to say. And it was a fun challenge.
Rich
Well, yeah, exactly. Because you talked about Sherlock Holmes in your book as well. That was one of the stories that resonated for me. What did I say? Our instinct is a bad detective. And that goes back to that first idea, and I was like, “Oh, okay, great.” And the way you sort of you had an idea and then it went into a story, and then it’s so much easier to sort of pass that information in through a narrative. So what were your favorite stories in the book, Derek?
Derek Sivers
Oh, haha. The bridge guard do you did you read the version that has the bridge guard, that came later?
Rich
Oh, I didn’t update. I read last month’s version of what it was six weeks ago. I can’t remember.
Derek Sivers
Oh, okay. I think Sherlock Holmes got edited out of the newest version. And one thing that’s in its place is the bridge guard. You want to hear the bridge guard story?
Rich
Yeah, I do.
Derek Sivers
“Tell me a story.” Okay. So a group of adventurers need to cross this narrow bridge over a deep, deadly chasm, and then a big guard like Aladdin’s genie is blocking the entrance to the bridge, and he says, “No one can pass until you tell me what’s true.” And then he snaps his fingers and everyone’s vision is replaced with a scene of the king being presented with a bowl of soup, and he takes one sip and pushes it away, saying, “It’s too salty.” And then their vision is restored and one of the adventurers said, “The king thinks the soup is too salty.” And the guard says, “No.” And another one said, “He doesn’t like the soup.” No. And then one said, “He said the words, it’s too salty.” True. And that one person is allowed to cross the bridge. And then again, “No one can cross until you tell me what’s true.” Boom! Their vision is replaced with a scene of a woman trapped in a box, and she’s pushing in and she’s pounding, but nothing is working and she can’t get out and their vision is restored. And somebody says, “The woman is trapped in a box and can’t get out.” No. “She’s pushing and pounding, but nothing’s working.” No. And then one says, “The woman is pushing and pounding the box.” True. And that person is allowed to pass. And then again, the bridge guard says, “No one can pass until you tell me.” But the youngest girl of the group has figured out what he’s trying to say. And so she walked straight up to the fearsome bridge guard and she said, “I’m going to cross the bridge now.” And she walked between his legs and crossed the bridge. And so the rest of the adventurers did the same, and the guard smiled with pride.
Rich
Yeah, I love it.
Derek Sivers
And so six chapters later, I say, hold on. I just want to make sure that you understood the bridge guard story earlier. The thing is, we too often have limiting beliefs that are just our interpretation of the situation, right? So we see a woman pushing and pounding a box, and we assume that she’s trapped and she can’t get out. But that’s the kind of thing that holds us back too often in life is when we say like, “Oh, my situation is is terrible and there’s no way out of it.” We don’t just look at the raw facts. So the only raw facts we know is that she’s pushing and pounding the box. That’s the only real fact. And same thing with the king in the soup. The king said it’s too salty, but we don’t know his real intentions. We don’t know if he actually thinks it’s too salty. Maybe he was testing the chef to see if the chef would push back or not. Maybe he was feeling sick and tired, but he doesn’t want to admit it because he needs to keep his public image. Just because he said it’s too salty doesn’t mean he really thinks it’s too salty. And again, a lot of people in life say things to us that we just take at face value, but might not actually be true. They might be hiding some other things. You know, the moral of the book is to look only at the raw, actual, observable facts that any creature or machine could observe and agree on. And everything else is just interpretation and not necessarily true.
Rich
Yeah. And I love the way that you talk about questions and just asking the types of questions when you’re in different situations that can help you really sort of almost like stop and check yourself, “Ah, okay. How can this actually be great.” You know? So whilst you sort of try and observe the truth, then you’ve also got a few steps to actually break forward or break out of whatever funk you’re in or, or any pattern that you’re in.
Derek Sivers
And you know, so getting back to parenting, there probably a lot of things that we were told by our parents and just accepted them as truth. But if we look at it again through older eyes, we can realize that was just their point of view. It was just their bias on the world. Even things like, kids need stability. Well, I think that’s something that a lot of grown ups say in order to rationalize the fact that they’re tired and don’t feel like moving. But actually, kids need safety. But safety and stability are two different things. I think plenty of kids would be thoroughly happy to move to a new location every week. I think it would be fun and exciting. As long as they feel safe with the love from their parents, they don’t need stability. I think tired, frazzled parents need stability. And so then they say kids need stability as an excuse for why, you know they’re going to buy a house with two dogs and. Yeah, anyway. But point is, it’s good to question and doubt the things that we’ve been told as true facts that, when you think about them again, are actually just somebody’s point of view.
Rich
Well, and one step further, I think what I took from it is we really need to question our own thoughts as well, because there’s so many things that in our head we think are true. And just like, “Is that actually true? Where am I getting that from?” And take those extra steps and one last question, because I know we’re running out of time here, but I wanted to ask, how have you taken what you do internally that your thinking process, how have you modeled that with your son?
Derek Sivers
Oh, luckily he’s old enough now that we just talk openly about it. So just in day to day life situations come up in his life. Something upsets him. Something confuses him. Somebody tells him something he doesn’t like. I ask him, well, “What’s another way to think about this or what’s great about this?” He’d say, “What do you mean, what’s great about this? It’s bad. This is a really bad thing.” I said, “No, hold on. Think again. Keep going. Something’s great about this. Let’s think about this.” And so he’ll stop and he’ll think some more. And he’ll like, almost like a game now, right? Like a game. Find something great about this now it’s a treasure hunt. I’m telling you, somewhere in this situation, almost like saying somewhere in this room is a pot of gold, right? Or somewhere in this room is a chocolate egg. Somewhere in this situation, is something good about it. Try harder. Look. And so he’ll stop and think, “Okay, well, actually, now I don’t need to see that friend anymore.” You know, I was like, “All right, good. He was kind of annoying you, wasn’t he?” “Yeah, actually, he was annoying me.” So it’s kind of a good thing that he told you he never wants to see you again. He took care of that for you, didn’t he? All right. So whatever it may be, I think from a young age, I’ve shared this kind of point of view with him. I’ll admit, it’s been deliberately manipulative, with good intentions. I’ve been trying to shape the way he sees the world since he could start talking. To see things this way, to ask what’s a better way to see this? Or what’s great about this or anything that happens, has a good side to it. Or nothing needs to get you down. Etc., you know.
Rich
Yeah. And the picture that resonated for me was like the secret doorway in a room. If you know there’s a secret doorway in the room, you’re going to keep looking. You’re going to keep prodding and prying and pushing at the edges because you’re looking for this thing. And it’s just having that idea that I’ve just got to find the hidden meaning or the hidden thing. I’m going to look I’m going to ask the questions.
Derek Sivers
I love that too. Right? Like, if somebody’s trapped in a jail cell and you say, “This is the most secure prison in the world, you’re never getting out of here.” Well, think what that does to your psyche. And if you say instead, “Hey, you know, hot tip, there’s actually a secret exit in your jail cell.” Like you would never give up on looking for it. And I think that’s a metaphor for our psyche that not just to be sunny and happy. It’s not like everybody needs to be showing their pearly white teeth and be happy all the time. But even for strategy, when you feel stuck to know there is always a strategy where anything that seems like it could be your downfall can be used to your advantage. And like a superhero that finds a tiny hole in the venting system of the death chamber and uses that one little hole to get out through, you know, putting smoke into it, which makes a mouse show up, which makes the room explode. You find a strategy if you’re in the right mindset. So mindset leads to concrete improvements, not just shallow happiness.
Rich
I love it, Derek. I think that’s a great place to land the plane. Yeah. Thank you so much for taking the time to share your thoughts with me. And the book is amazing And all the books. I think the first one I read I can’t remember. No no no no. It was “How to Live”.
Derek Sivers
Oh, yeah. That was the one with just the directive. By the way so anybody listening, “How to Live”. The title is ironic. The book does not tell you how to live. It does not think it has the answers. Well, rather, every chapter insists it has the answer. But then it deliberately conflicts with all the other chapters. It’s a little art piece.
Rich
But not only the books that you’ve written, but I think a real service to humanity is the synopses of books that you put together. And my recollection was that you did that for your son as well, because you’d read so many books that had shaped your life, and then you went, “Oh, that book had such meaning to me, but I can’t really recall what the meaning was.” And I’ve found the same thing with myself, like, oh, the book’s amazing. You’ve got to read it. Why? And I can’t even think of three reasons why. And it’s almost like, you have to go back and re-read the book and take notes or read books with the intent of actually then being able to pass on the nuggets that you get from there. But your resource is massive. All the books that you felt were really important, you’ve re-read and made synopses and you just put links to them. So it’s a great resource for people to just scour through and go, “Oh, great, that sounds like a great book. I’m going to go off and get that one now.” So I highly recommend not only reading your recent book, you know, “Useful Not True”. But check out your listing of all the books that you’ve done synopses on because I found that incredibly useful. So thanks very much.
Derek Sivers
We can actually give people the direct link. If you go to sive.rs, that’s my website. So if you go to sive.rs/book, you’ll see yeah, it’s over 400 books there now. Everything I’ve read since the age of 37, I started keeping notes as I was reading it, not summarizing the book. You can find other people to summarize a book for you, but instead I would just extract what I thought were the most interesting ideas from this book, and I would type them into a separate text file, just for my own sake, to to revisit the most interesting ideas from that book. And I just decided I might as well share them on my website too. So there they are for public use. And at first I thought that the publishers and the authors might be upset about that. But no, they actually like it because I point people to buy the book if they like the quotes.
Rich
Yeah. That’s great. Thank you so much.
Derek Sivers
Anyway, thanks for having me, Rich. And yeah, anybody listening to this, please email and introduce yourself. I actually really enjoy my email inbox and getting emails from strangers every day. And as you can tell, I am thoroughly happy to talk parenting any time.
Rich
Well, you sound like you’re doing a great job, Derek, so keep up the great work.
Derek Sivers
Thanks, Rich.