Undefeated Underdogs
host: Sharath Kuruganty
philosophy of clothing, parenting, importance of belief systems
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Transcript:
Sharath
It feels like I’m in one of those situations today because my next guest is one of my dream guests. I’ve been a big fan of his books, writing, philosophy, and more importantly, his introduction to me. The way he looks the world different with a set of lens. So that’s my biggest takeaway from my next guest, Derek Sivers. Derek is a dad, a global citizen, a musician turned circus performer turned entrepreneur turned writer. He gave TEDx talks. He wrote five incredible books, including his latest one, “Useful Not True”, which we will talk at length about. And he’s one of the generational thinkers, in my opinion, who impacted many people. Fun fact I cold emailed Derek and he generously agreed to be here on the podcast, so I’m grateful for you. Derek, welcome to the show.
Derek Sivers
Thanks, Sharath. Well, I like what you’re doing. I checked out your podcast and I listened to some episodes first and went, “Yeah, I like this guy.”
Sharath
Oh, that means the world to me. Well, so first of all, we kind of joked about this before hitting record. You look so great. You always look great. I’ve done tons of research. In every YouTube video, you come with this suit and a turtleneck. It feels like you have a uniform, like Steve Jobs. Talk to me about the philosophy behind wearing the same thing, especially at least on the public appearances. You are very consistent, so talk to me about it.
Derek Sivers
Yeah, not just public appearances, but basically every time I leave the house, I’m wearing this. Unless I’m playing with my kid in the forest or, you know, at the beach. I don’t wear this, but the idea. We’re always trying to match our inside and outside, right? Sometimes you catch yourself living in such a way that doesn’t really align with your values. You know, maybe you think of yourself as somebody who has it all together, but you look around your house and it’s all messy and you think, “This doesn’t really align.” Or like, “What is my philosophy if I say that I have it all together, but my house is so messy.” So I think we constantly look at ourselves from the outside as compared to how we are inside our heads and and see if the two are aligning. So there were many years, maybe while I was technically an entrepreneur, where I liked to go against the banker type image of a business person, and I made a point of being super ultra casual. You know, I lived on the beach in Santa Monica, California. I would just wear these open foot sandals and shorts and whatever crappy T-shirt somebody had handed me at a conference, and that was my public appearance.
Derek Sivers
Actually, before that, for 15 years I had long dreadlock braids in back. Even though I had a shaved head. I kept the long braids in the back. It was just kind of weird look. There aren’t many pictures of it online left anymore. But for 14 years of running CD Baby that was my public image. Was this dude in open foot sandals, crappy t shirt, long braids. And I kind of liked that I did not look like the kind of entrepreneur on Wall Street trying to raise $10 million, you know? I didn’t want to be confused with that. But then at one point I was speaking on stage at a conference called the World Domination Summit, and they made a video recording of me on stage. And later I watched that video and I saw myself in these open toed sandals and crappy shirts and I just went, “That’s not really me anymore, is it? Like right now I’m feeling like my outside doesn’t align with my inside.” And so I taught some friends about clothes and matching the inside to outside. And I ended up getting kind of philosophical with it. And I talked to an old friend of mine, Meng Wang Wang from Singapore. Just a brilliant thinker, such a creative thinker.
Derek Sivers
And he always wears a three piece suit in the sweltering hot weather of Singapore. And his philosophy on it, not just a suit. A three piece suit with the vest and the tie. And so, yeah, everybody thought he was crazy. But when I asked him about it, he had a really interesting philosophy about it, he said, “You know, the reason we’re able to send emails to each other is that the empty protocol is a standard. It’s an open standard. That’s why anybody is able to create their own mail server, their own email client, and we’re able to interact because it’s an open standard.” He said, “Standards are useful.” And he said, “The clothing I wear, you could put me in a time machine back a hundred years, probably forward 100 years, and I would not look that out of place.” He said, “I believe that men’s clothing has a standard and not everyone needs to adhere to the standard. But there is a standard.” And he said, “Left to my own devices, I do not dress myself very well. Therefore, instead I choose to adhere to the standard.” Okay, so this was Meng’s advice to me years before.
Derek Sivers
No, sorry, not advice. This was just his answer to the question when I asked why he wears a three piece suit. So then years later, as I was doubting my public appearance, I called Meng and I said, “Hey, talk to me again about this suit. I’m thinking of wearing a suit. I’m curious your thoughts on this. It’s been, you know, five years since we talked about this last ten years, actually.” And he gave me one more data point that I really like. He said, “If you’re just out in public, you’re sitting in a cafe or you’re sitting in a library in New York City.” He said, “You’re a white man, so nobody’s going to kick you out.” He said, “Life is not so easy for the men of African and South Asian origin that might get asked to move along and get out if they don’t look rich.” So he said, “The ethnic minorities in any country usually have to dress smarter or dress richer in order to just gain a medium level of respect. So by wearing a suit as a white man, you’re actually, in a way showing solidarity with those that have to wear a suit.”
Sharath
Right.
Derek Sivers
And I went, “Dude, this is getting really interesting.” So you know, you ask a tiny question, you’re getting a long answer, but it’s okay.
Sharath
No, no, no.
Derek Sivers
I’ve never really told the story fully. So then I went, “All right, I’m gonna do it. I’m gonna wear about suit. I know nothing about suits, so let me learn about suits.” So I went to YouTube and there’s a guy, Hugo Jacome, the Parisian gentleman that does these really in-depth, interesting YouTube dives into men’s clothing and suits. And I was living in Oxford, England at the time. So which is near London, which is like the heart of Savile Row of custom men’s suits right. So I thought, all right, let me take advantage of the fact that I’m currently in England. And on his recommendation, the YouTube dude, Hugo Jacome, I found Michael Brown. So Hugo Jacome says Michael Brown is just the best tailor,cutter in London. And so I contacted Michael Brown basically to just say, like, you’re the expert. I don’t know anything about this. Like, tell me what to do. And so Michael Brown told me what to do. He said, “You should wear this rollneck shirt.” He said, “I’m going to make you a jacket like this. You should wear these shoes because they’ve got this line and that’s what you should wear.” I said, “Okay, problem solved. Standard achieved.”
Derek Sivers
That’s what I wear. Because, yeah, when I’m at home, I basically wear pajamas, you know, not literally. Yeah like there’s like the local equivalent of Kmart here in New Zealand where I got like five t shirts for $10, you know.
Sharath
Achieved.
Sharath
And that cost is ideal.
Derek Sivers
Yeah, that’s what I wear around the house is my $2 t shirts like pajamas. But anytime I leave the house, anytime we turn on a camera, I wear my standard suit as told to me my by Michael Brown in London.
Sharath
Shout out to Michael Brown for styling Derek Sivers. And I think, no, I feel a couple things I want to just mention. I think I do agree to your point that, you know, a lot of minorities like, you know, I’m a minority, I’m an Indian living in the America. And I always kind of unconscious-- now that you mention reflecting back to my why do I dress like good. Even I’m in my home. I’m wearing, like, you know, good sweatshirt because I want to appear good in front of you because I think unconsciously you want to kind of present ourselves in the most respectful way. Like, regardless of-- I think, one of your chapters in “Useful Not True” is judge the contents, not the cover.
Derek Sivers
Right.
Sharath
Like going back to that is the same kind of like a similar thing. Like I just want to understand about going back to the book because I think--
Derek Sivers
Actually, before we go to the book, you just said something interesting where you said you want to present yourself in a respectful way And remember, my story started where when I was running my company, I would deliberately wear this kind of beach bum attire. And thinking back to what you just said, I think I was actually consciously being disrespectful. I was like, “I do not respect this world of entrepreneurship and people trying to raise money and spouting bullshit to always make the chart and projections go up and to the right, and trying to act like you have the solution to everything. Like you’re such a big deal, like, this is all such stupid bullshit. I don’t respect any of it. I’m wearing crap in public.” I think I was intentionally disrespecting that world and I still kind of sorry, disrespect that world. But we can talk about that.
Sharath
Yeah, absolutely. But I think, uh, the other thing is you went deep, I think in like any other thing you do, you did your research and you went deep. You talked to people. If it’s not human is what I want to my point is, like, if someone were to like, stylize themselves, they would have just gone to a Macy’s or any shop and get some clothes, try it on and then oh, this looks good and let’s do it. But you went to experts. I feel that brings the question of two things. And I think in your bio, you also wrote about I want to do one thing and I want to give my focus to one thing till the problem is solved and I then move on. So where is this obsession of dedicating yourself to one thing came from?
Derek Sivers
Came from? Who knows? But it just feels like an unfinished. See? See that tension when I didn’t finish a sentence and I left that word hanging there.
Sharath
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Derek Sivers
When something feels unfinished, it’s like, “Come on, finish it, finish it.” So I feel that with everything I’m doing until it’s finished, I start something and granted, that’s if I decide to really start something, you know. I have 100 things I could do. And then I only pick something. I pick one thing that really feels like, all right, this is worth doing. I start it and then the whole time it’s unfinished, I feel this tension, this need for completion. I just want to finish it. It’s like an unsolved problem just waiting there. I mean, you see, people do this with video games where they’re just trying to beat the boss level or whatever, and they’ll stay up until three in the morning to do it because it’s like, “Ah, I’m almost there.” So I think I just have that approach to work is I don’t like that ever present tension of the unfinished project. And I’ve learned this the hard way through leaving things open and trying to have five things going on at once. And it just feels like, “Oh, now all of these things are open and unfinished.” Instead I say, no, I hate the way that feels. I’m just going to do one thing at a time until it’s complete, and then I’ll do the next thing.
Sharath
I think it almost feels like that the unfinished business bothers you. Like, you know, for people who has OCD if something’s kind of in the thought that something’s messy, it’s just like, you know, they feel that cringe and they want to just clean it, or they just want to wipe that shit. Right? I think it’s just the same way. I think I would say the other way to put it is you have an itch to complete things maybe. You know.
Derek Sivers
I think it’s also just a value system where I think launching and finishing well in reverse order, finishing and launching is important. It’s not valuable. Or I disrespect those who stay too long in an unfinished state. I think I’ve met so many entrepreneurs telling me what they’re working on, and everything’s always in future tense, “Oh, we’re gonna do this. We’re gonna do that.” I’m like, “Yeah, just shut up and tell me when it’s done.” And even living in Los Angeles, in the music business, a lot of people would talk in future tense about, “Oh, we’re working on this deal. I’m going to be talking to this guy. You know EMI is gonna give us a deal with this, or we’re gonna I’m gonna be collaborating with this.” Like, just tell me when it’s done. Stop with all this future projection. So maybe I’ve just built this value system over the years where I just find it really important to finish and launch.
Sharath
And you also mentioned about, if I were to start one or if I were to pick one, how do you decide like, and I saw on your page, now that you’ve completed the book, you said these are the things I want to do. Like I want to clean up Derek Sivers website. I want to add LLMs to it. And there is also like a garage revamp, if I’m not wrong, something like that. It’s like there are like a bunch of bunch of things that are non-tech. Some are tech, some are like, you know, you want to clean up some stuff there. So my question is like how do you end up to a situation where like, okay, out of ten I’ll go five out of five, I’ll go top three, I’ll out of top three. Yeah, this is it. Because everything is written by you, right? That’s one of the biggest problems any creator or any founder or anybody who creates. The biggest problem is it’s them that they want to do stuff. It’s not someone else forcing you. That means all the stuff you wrote yourself you want to do at some point. So yeah, but why now? And why this? And how do you make that decision? Is there a framework or is it like a second nature that came to you because you’ve done so much shit. So is that like a second nature or?
Derek Sivers
It’s not that hard to sense inside yourself the combination of what is most intrinsically interesting to you right now, like what are you most driven by and fascinated by right now. But multiply that by the importance, where there are just some things that sequentially make more sense to do first, that there would be a huge benefit to this being done earlier. Whereas this other thing on your list, it can wait. You know, it’s not urgent for that to happen early. So I multiply those two things together. You know, I might be really intrinsically interested in something, but if something else just really needs to be done, like lots of people are waiting for it, other things I really care about can’t happen until this is done. Well then, even if I’m not super intrinsically motivated to do that thing, there’s enough extrinsic motivation that I’ll do it first.
Sharath
I think there’s like a mathematical calculation priority. Like, you know,
Derek Sivers
There are no real numbers attached to it. But yeah, it’s more just the I think it’s kind of a couple different compasses going on inside my gut about what excites me the most. But on the other hand, what is creating the most discomfort and pain inside me because it’s not done. Yeah, that’s a good one. There’s some things like, say, learning Chinese. I would love to learn Chinese. I really do want to learn Chinese, and I do plan on doing it. But not knowing Chinese is not currently creating a massive discomfort in me every day. Whereas if I had, say, a bug in my software that was causing my store to not work, well, that’s a massive displeasure. You know, a massive pain right now that even though I’m not super excited about that, I need to do that first.
Sharath
Yeah, I think the discomfort is I think the underlying keyword. So going back to your like early days, you know, you’re a musician. You went from being a musician to circus performer to entrepreneur to speaker to writer. It’s like so many identities. It’s like you lived different lives in one life. Right?
Derek Sivers
How old are you now?
Sharath
I’m 36.
Derek Sivers
Okay. Yeah. I mean, you’ll you’ll probably do the same. Life just takes you in different paths and chapters.
Sharath
Absolutely. I do agree because right now I’m in love with this podcasting. Two years ago I never thought I would be a podcaster. I was like, this is something I discovered as I kind of talking to people, you know, like, okay, I can ask questions, I can hold a conversation, let me start a podcast. Let’s take a shot like 4 or 5 years ago. I’ve never built any products by myself. I’m not a builder. I’m not technical. I found like these no code tools where you can build stuff. Okay, let’s. So I see where you what you said about, you know, I’m kind of can also experience the same. But my question is like you’ve transitioned so much, right? Every time it’s a new identity. Again, how did you leave the things that you really loved? Every identity is something you loved so much. Like, I wouldn’t say giving up, but giving in and moving on. Maybe letting go. That’s the right word. How did you let go being a musician to performer, circus performer to like, okay, let me write code. I want to learn to like building CD Baby, selling that. To like.Okay, let me talk to Ted a couple times to, like, okay now I’m a writer.
Derek Sivers
I really value self-expansion more than anything. More than almost anything except being a great dad to my kid. Value expanding my sense of self. And that can happen in tiny little ways. And I’ll just tell you three quick ones that just happened in the last year, for example, and I’ll just rattle them quickly. We don’t need to go too deep into these, because you’ve got lots of other fun questions to talk about. But a year and a half ago, if you would have asked me if I ever want to go to Dubai, I’d say, “Oh, Dubai. Hell no. Fuck that place. Yuck. Shallow millionaire pandering. You know, Instagram. Hashtag stupid. Indulgent luxury place. Yuck. No, never.” But then I did go to Dubai and I loved it. Underneath the surface is one of the most soulful, generous, well-run places I’ve ever experienced and definitely the most international place I’ve ever seen in my whole life. I now love UAE and Dubai and just kind of the Middle East in general. I’m fascinated with right now, which just blew my mind a year and a half ago I never would have expected that. So that gives me this feeling of expanded self like something I used to be closed to. Now I’m not only open to, but drawn to. That’s like, oh cool. I’ve expanded my circle of interest. The Python programming language was also something I was totally against., “Yuck, python? No. Never. Yuck.” And then one day, very reluctantly, when starting a new project, I went, “Okay, let me look at doing it in Python.”
Derek Sivers
And I finally gave Python a real look and I was blown away. I loved it, I went, “Oh my gosh, this is beautiful! What a great language, I love this.” Okay, expanded my sense of self tech wise. And then just a week ago I got back from South America where I learned a little Spanish for the first time in my life. And growing up in America, I always kind of roll my eyes when people speak Spanish. I don’t know why. I was just kind of-- I think maybe because, like an early, early girlfriend, like when I was a teenager, went to South America, then broke up with me. I think I was, like, irrationally prejudiced against the Spanish language. And so here I am at the age of 54, and I learn a little Spanish, and I was like, “Wow, this is really cool. I really like this.” And so again like sense of self expanding, right? So I want to keep doing this for the rest of my life with, say, where I live, the things I engage with, the things I learn about, the people I meet, people that I would be prejudiced against, you get to know them better. That’s maybe my number one biggest driving force in life is this, is expanding my sense of self,
Sharath
I think “Useful Not True” I want to get into the book later, but I just want to quickly mention that I got a sense of relief after reading that.
Derek Sivers
How so?
Sharath
It actually kind of, I used to live in absolutes. Meaning this is it.
Derek Sivers
Yeah.
Sharath
And it can be a decision, or it can be like a belief, or it can be judgment, or it can be an opinion or a fact. Everything is like, this is it. And I don’t want to explore. So I feel I’ve kind of slowly changing myself to, you know, I have to be more open, open mindedness. And I think reading that book, I feel like, “Whoa.” There are like, so many things you kind of destroyed from religion to like, wisdom. So I’m a true believer in wisdom. I think you’ve said the book, “Believe in the instant, not wisdom.” Right? Because wisdom is something like it quotes on top of what is reality. And like so many things like ideas, you know, asking right questions to whatever. So and I think what you said is I also kind of on the same line, you have to be very open. Now I see when you said about that’s like your number one priority. I kind of have a sense that why you wrote the book.
Derek Sivers
Thank you.
Sharath
Because you want to kind of write the book and giving that to others so that they experience the same thing. And I’m in the position right now, like, okay, let me be more open.
Derek Sivers
It helps you find more creative solutions to day to day problems, whether they’re business problems or personal problems. If you think less, dogmatically less I don’t know, normal. And you use the rules of brainstorming. This idea of like, okay, don’t just stop at the second answer. Definitely don’t stop at the first answer. Don’t even stop at the third answer. Make yourself keep going, “Okay. What are ten more ways that I could solve this problem?” And you start getting crazy and weird, and you go to the edge cases and you get extreme. And somewhere in there you might find brilliant solutions to the problems that are holding you back right now. So the first thing to do then is to let go of this sense of true and false. And I don’t mean, you know, physical realities or I’m not going to say that, you know, the number of votes cast in the last election was not true. You know, like, not denying reality. But opening your mind to other possibilities instead of stopping at the first answer.
Sharath
I think that itself is a perspective change, right? The book, at least it talked to me in a way that you have to look 360 degrees, then come to a conclusion. Whatever it is, it can be right to you. You said so many times, the thing that comes right to you might be completely wrong to someone else. Take religion, the beliefs you have about religion might be like you’re very strict. You have to do these things. It might be silly for others. I’ve been very open minded. I married a Muslim woman. So I’m a Hindu and we fought like, you know, crazy to make our parents say yes. And then we married. So I have this sense unconsciously, but reading this book kind of reminded me about my childhood to be, like, way open, you know. Okay, you were you were doing things before and whatever reason you forgot. Now, I think reading the book made me realize, “Oh, you know what? That used to be true. I used to have a set of beliefs now, but I did the things that are right for me, and it worked out well.” And I learned that by taking action. That’s one of the biggest things for me, takeaways from the book is trying. You gotta try, try this, try that, try this, try that, try that, again 360 degree view. And then you come to a conclusion. Then some of the beliefs can be reframed. I like that solution as well. But yeah, I do have a set of things for the book, but I want to I’m curious about your path to become like the global citizen. You’ve been to Singapore, you’ve been to London. Like you travel a lot. I think in the book itself, I saw this, like, take the first step immediately. You bought a plane ticket to London for six months. That was like the first time you came out of the jar.
Derek Sivers
Yes. Good term.
Sharath
Yeah. So one of the cutest questions I have is being an American. What did you learn traveling the world and what should an average American experience or learn?
Derek Sivers
Ah, okay. Well, in reverse order, I don’t prescribe it. I wouldn’t say should. Most people are quite happy with their job, or let’s just say, with their life and their family in Ohio, with their circle of friends and their spouse and kids, and they’re all set. They don’t need to go stomping through Saudi Arabia. They’re perfectly fine where they are. But some of us have this curiosity that won’t stop. Or in my weird case, where I just have this top value of self-expansion. So I would think it would be wonderful to get to know Kazakhstan and feel at home there and to have dear friends in Peru, but because this would expand my sense of home. So each of these places I’m going to I’m not thinking of it in terms of like them and they and looking at a place and taking some pictures and telling friends that I have visited that place. Every place I go, I think of it like home. I look at it through the filter of “I could live here and I might live here. And in fact, I kind of want to live here. And if I did live here, how would we?” That’s an important difference instead of they, it’s we, “How do we live in this place? What do we believe? How do we see the world here?” Do you know that I’m an OCI, an overseas citizen of India?
Sharath
Oh, I did not. Really?
Derek Sivers
I also married a Muslim woman from Tamil Nadu. And through marriage, I am an overseas citizen of India. And right now, my best friend that I talk to every single day lives in Bangalore and well two of my best friends live in Bangalore. And I feel very connected to that part of the world. And in fact, I think it’s the place that I’m most likely to live in a few years when my boy doesn’t need me to be in New Zealand anymore. So that in itself, like, expands my sense of self. So India already feels like “we” to me. Like I’ve already got skin in that game. And then I realized that China felt like “them”. Like, I don’t get it. China’s weird. I don’t understand it. So I’m starting to take steps in the direction of of making China more of a “we” and “us” to me, like getting more connected, learning the language. I don’t know if I’m going to go for like an official resident visa, but some kind of like official way that I can be like kind of skin in the game. So when I hear China news on the TV, sorry, I don’t watch TV, but you know what I mean.
Sharath
Yeah. They know.
Derek Sivers
Any mention of China is you’re talking about “us”. You’re talking about my people, not them. And I’m already feeling that way a bit with the Middle East. You know, I really got Dubai into my soul. Or I should say, like UAE, because I really like Abu Dhabi, too. That really got into my soul, and I’m really planning on living there, and I’ve started to make some really dear friends there too. So that also is already feeling like a, “This is my this is my home. I love this place.” Sorry, I forgot the original question. Oh, you asked what an American-- so no I think that. Okay, let’s not just pick on America, but I think any big country, let’s say any huge country, China, India, Brazil, United States can give its residents the impression that this is the whole world. You know, China’s term for itself in its own language is Middle Kingdom. China sees itself as the middle of the world. And growing up there, you really feel that this is everything. Maybe even, you know, firewalled off a lot of the foreign internet.
Sharath
Absolutely, yeah.
Derek Sivers
China can feel like the whole world. India is giant within India. I know it can feel like it’s, we’re maybe more aware of the rest of the world than China is allowed to be. But so I think same thing growing up in America because of the influence of Hollywood style media. Every movie you watch, every TV show, it’s all set in America. Unless they go on a little field trip to the Eiffel Tower. You know, it’s like you’re aware that there are some other countries, but come on, this is like the only real country. And I think that anybody from any big country would do well to expand their mind, or maybe readjust with reality and get out into other places and staying in other places, not just visiting for a week and taking some pictures, but really going and making it home and seeing that, yes, you know, Estonia is also a valid country and, uh, whatever. Uruguay is a totally valid place to live, that those people are just as important as ours.
Sharath
Yeah. So I do know you married, you know, some Indian. I didn’t know, like, all the details, but thank you for sharing that. You know, I think we have a commonality there, you know?
Derek Sivers
Yeah. Did you have to have an imam for your wedding?
Sharath
Yeah, we did all right.
Derek Sivers
Same.
Sharath
I did both that their style, kind of their wedding as well as Hindu style, you know, two types of wedding. It was kind of like a long wish coming true because we waited so long. We’ve been dating for like 15 years.
Derek Sivers
Wow.
Sharath
That’s my high school sweetheart, as you know, people in America call. And then, you know, the struggle, you know, coming here, settling here. And then it’s like really living the actual, you know, dream. So I’m glad that you shared we have some commonality. Now the follow up question right there. And again, curiosity, do you have like a set of countries you want to visit, like do you have like a plan? “Oh, yeah. I should go there. Definitely.” Again, that makes you uncomfortable. But you you still want to go there?
Derek Sivers
Living around the world, not traveling, living in all these different places is the second most important thing in my whole life. The first important thing is being here for my kid. So that is the the tension of my current existence is that we have to be here in New Zealand because my boy’s mother works at the New Zealand government, and she’s bound here and he’s bound to her. So basically all three of us are living in New Zealand because she is. But if it weren’t for that, I’d be living in India for sure. I’d also be living in UAE. I don’t know if it would be Al-Ain or Abu Dhabi or or Dubai. I would be getting to know the whole world. I really want to, like, maximize the tourist visa to stay in places for three months at a time. And I expect that for the rest of my life, I will continue to live all around the world nomadically for the rest of my life. Once I don’t have to be here anymore.
Sharath
I think that’s like the first time I’m hearing someone who has a family say that. You know.
Derek Sivers
It doesn’t cancel out.
Sharath
No, I know. I think it’s fresh to me, to my ears. Because the people I know who are nomads, they’re single. The far extent they went is having a girlfriend and that’s it. Once you get married, you’re done. So I think you’re breaking one more norm that the society puts on.
Derek Sivers
Yeah.
Sharath
I just want to, you know, put that out.
Derek Sivers
I actually wrote a whole article about this. In fact, I made it a short, memorable URL sive.rs/tk as in travel with kids. Because traveling with kids is easy and fun. And in fact, I prefer it when you travel with kids. It opens more doors. You get to see things through more naive eyes that don’t have prejudice, right? Like, you know, you might have grown up with some kind of blah blah blah about Pakistan, but if suddenly you and your wife have like a three year old baby and you go to Pakistan for the full time, your kid is just like looking at everything with no baggage, no preset notion about these people are such and such. And it can be so cool to see the world kind of fresh through your kids eyes. So yeah traveling with kids is great. And in fact, my kid desperately wants to live around the whole world as well. It’s really just his mother with her job here in the government, that she’s the only reason we are not.
Sharath
Let her listen to the episode so that she might change.
Derek Sivers
Oh, no. You know, but this is what I mean. It’s like it’s not for everybody. A lot of my best friends think that I’m, no, not crazy. They just roll their eyes at how different our values are. Like, I own almost nothing. And I love moving house every year. And they go like, “Oh God, you’re so weird. Like nothing is worse to me than moving house. It’s such a pain in the ass. What a pain.” I think to me it’s worth it. I just love getting a new perspective all the time, so it’s just different value systems. I even have a sister we’re almost the same age. We grew up almost the same way, but her values are the opposite. She and her husband and their three kids and their two dogs bought a house 27 years ago, and they’re just gonna stay in that house until they die. They’ve already decided that and that’s their value system. You know.
Sharath
I do appreciate you again, being open and kind of respecting other people’s values right. You’re not again, pushing your thing on them or even inviting their thing on you. I think that is at least a happy way to live. Everybody has their own values. Now that we’re talking about kids, I do have this question. Let me look. So one of my favorite posts you wrote is about parenting. I am a dad of two. I have a three year old boy and a five month old boy recently.
Derek Sivers
Oh. You do? Cool. All right.
Sharath
I have you have two boys and and I think one of the things I learned when I had my first kid, one of the things I did was reading that post. It’s because I want to be very intentional with him. And one of the things you mentioned is giving them full attention, like, what are they doing. That’s it. That’s the priority. Doesn’t matter if you want to pee or whatever it is, it doesn’t matter. You have to be there and let them be them and you learn from them. And I think very interesting thing you said in that post is, “Doing that is actually doing it for yourself.” Right. I’m very curious, have you learned anything? I think you wrote that post 2017 like five years after your kid was born and now he’s, I think 12 or something.
Derek Sivers
Yeah
Sharath
Anything new that you want to add to that post? Or like anything that you discovered if you were to rewrite it or advice about parenting?
Derek Sivers
No. So again, the short URL for that, it’s sive.rs/pa as in the first two letters of parent. All of it still applies and in fact I can tell you now, five years later or whatever it is now that it really works. Like my boy and I are just best friends. We talk every day, we talk about life. And this is all just with his leadership. He wants to call me to talk about life, or. I mean, like when I say call, I mean, like, as he’s walking to or from school, he calls me so we can talk for another half an hour. As soon as he gets home, he says, like, “Can we just go and walk in the forest and just talk about life?” I’m like, “Okay.” We’re really, really close emotionally. And he knows that I know him completely, and it’s because I’ve always given him my full attention. So again, I’m not going to say this is the right way to parent because, for example, in UAE, I met a man whose grandfather had 38 kids from five wives. And I know that he didn’t you know spend-- I’m not going to say everybody needs to be this way, but I can tell you that I’ve been this way, and it’s been a huge benefit. People who meet my son and I kind of tell me later that they’re amazed how close he and I are.
Derek Sivers
And it’s very much by design because anytime I’m with him, everything else stops. Even if I’m like 95% done with something that’s super urgent and important. And he walks in the door home from school. Whatever I’m doing shut down. I give him my full attention to let him know that he’s important. I think there are too many kids growing up today. Who just see this. You know, they see the side of their parents had as their parents are just looking at their stupid phone. They go, “Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Yeah, right. Whatever. Whatever. Just do it. I’m busy.” You know and what does that teach the kids but that whatever happens in this three by four inch piece of glass is more important than you, and then they grow up reflecting the same to the people in their life. Like whatever happens in this piece of glass is more important than you. And I never wanted my kid to get that message. So I just always, no matter how badly I want to do what I’m doing, he’s more important. So whenever he walks in the door or whenever he wakes up in the morning, whatever I’m doing just gets shut down and he just gets my full attention until, you know, 8:45 when he goes off to school or whatever.
Sharath
Awesome. Yeah, I think that’s I do like or I have to say this, I do appreciate the intentionality behind it. Right. You know, there is a long term thinking. It’s not just I want to be present because I’m a parent right. When you said about him reflecting what he learned from you on others is very important. So I think there’s like a long term thinking right there. So that is something that I feel, again, there is no right way, but at least I kind of resonate with that mindset of how can we do or install like these long term beliefs in our kids, right. Being present is like default. And like you said, they’re like blank slate. They don’t know anything. So they kind of mimic what we do. So now I play rough with him like really rough. I throw him just for fun. And now he mimics the same with his younger brother. Even though he’s like five months old, he plays rough with him. We like, “Whoa. he’s just a small baby. Take it easy now.” Because he kind of does what I did to him. So I think that I can see right now, you know, and I kind of appreciate you for installing that kind of intentionality into me. I just want to share that.
Derek Sivers
Cool. Have you read the book “Playful Parenting” yet?
Sharath
No, I’m reading this thing called one, two, three parenting. Yeah that is also kind of they have a different method to handle hyperactive kids. You basically have to do everything. You don’t yell at them if you’re angry. Sometimes we kind of snap out instead of that. The one of the recommended methods in the book is be calm and just start counting three numbers and you tell the consequence at the end of the third number. One, two, three then you have a consequence. It really works. My God like fantastic method. So yeah, I didn’t mean to stop you.
Derek Sivers
Oh no. I just highly recommend the book called”Playful Parenting”.
Derek Sivers
Especially after the age of one. I think it’s the best parenting book I’ve ever found, and I’ve read a lot, “Playful Parenting”. Please find that one now, especially for your three year old now. It’s amazing. The guy’s done a lot of research and found that, in short, play is kids language. Play is how they express their emotions. Play is how they learn. Play is how they feel connected with the world and feeling connected with you. And making yourself engage in play with your kids even when you don’t feel like it.
Sharath
Okay.
Derek Sivers
It’s like one of the most connecting things you can ever do with your kid, because now you’re speaking their language. Now you’re connecting on their level. So that book helped a lot. Still, at age 12, we’ll be sitting there doing homework and say you know, we’ll be dividing fractions and he’ll forget to flip it upside down. And instead of being like, “Oh, come on to divide by a fraction, you have to flip it and multiply.” You know, I could get angry, but instead just like even though he’s kind of, like, tired and dreary and we’re doing homework and he’s like, uh. I say, “Uh oh, you forgot to flip it.” And I’ll stand up and I’ll pick him up and I’ll hang him upside down, going, “What do you have to do to divide fractions?” And he’ll be like laughing and laughing and laughing and I’ll flip him upside down, like, “Are you going to remember now what to do with fractions?” You know, flip him back and put him in his chair and he’s just, like, giggling and laughing.
Sharath
Right.
Derek Sivers
And homework is fun if you make it fun. And he learns better because he’ll never forget to flip a fraction again. You know, there’s always a way, even if you don’t feel like it. You know, my knee hurts. My knee is really swollen right now because I heard it in the forest two days ago. And even though my knee is swollen and hurting, I made myself stand up and flip them upside down because I knew that this is. Sorry, this just happened yesterday. I know that this is what the moment needs because he was feeling like burdened by homework. And it’s like I really took the lessons of that book, “Playful Parenting”, to heart. And I notice these moments. I’m like, “Okay, I know what the right thing to do is.”
Sharath
Yeah that’s a good point. And definitely we’ll put that in the show notes. Now that we’re talking about books I think we have to talk about the books you wrote. And you know--
Derek Sivers
Hold on if you want I know that you’ve got a list of questions. And you also know that I’m not here to promote a book. I don’t really care about that. I’m here to have whatever conversation you want to have. So I’m happy to go through all the things you want to talk about today.
Sharath
Yeah. So I kind of going like, you know, as a story now that you’re unfolding like the parenting I wanted to ask like at the end, but we’re talking about kids. So I felt like the flow is there. So I’m just going with the flow. I’ve heard countless stories from people, my friends, you know, on Twitter talking raving about your books. You know, from “Anything You Want” to like “How to Live”. I’m very curious about-- so I read them again. Not all of them. I read “How to Live” and “Useful Not True”. It is so fascinating to me that you’re packing this incredible experience in probably like 150 pages. I have read books which have like 300 like 400 like it goes on and on and I lose sometimes interest. In “Useful Not True”, I just read it in one sitting and I didn’t even listen. I read the first draft you sent me before and it was like the PDF flip, flip, flip and it’s done. So I’m very curious about how you go from 0 to 1. What I mean by that is how do you turn a hook into a whole book?
Derek Sivers
Ooh! All right. Well, first you try not to. First, you see, if you could just make it an article. I believe in the power of reluctance. If you read my first book called “Anything You Want”. Well, if you just know my story about how I started my business, it was all reluctant. I was trying to not start a business, but people kept asking me if I would sell their CDs.
Sharath
Correct.
Derek Sivers
And so I was just doing it as a favor to a few friends. But then a few more friends came, and then friends of theirs came. And so reluctantly, I went, “Okay, I guess I’ve started a business now.” But I felt that was a better DNA to start from, to do it only from a mindset of filling a need. And if that need disappears, well then great. I’ll shut down the business and move on with my life. I’m not trying to make a business. I’m just helping people that are asking me for help. And as soon as they don’t need my help, I will happily shut this thing down. So same thing with a book. You don’t try to write a book. You try not to write a book. Try to just make a single tweet. And if a tweet won’t do it, then just write an article. And if an article just won’t do it, well then, damn it, I guess you have to write a book, but then try to make it as short as you can.
Derek Sivers
Because yes, we’ve all felt the annoyance at authors who write a 380 page book because that’s the norm, when really that could have just been one long article. The point was communicated just fine in 12 pages. That’s all that was needed. But damn it, they went on for another 330 pages. We’ve all felt that pain, so I try to not do that. I try to write as short as I can, even if the rough draft was long, like in the ideation. I have many ideas. And then I say, “Okay, I don’t want to put a 400 page book out into the world.” So I compress compress, compress. I eliminate every sentence that doesn’t absolutely need to be there. If that sentence doesn’t carry some important information, it’s eliminated. And then once I’ve eliminated every sentence I can, I look at the remaining sentences and I eliminate every word I can, “Is that adverb necessary? No. Is this little phrase where I say, in my opinion, no, this book is my opinion. I don’t need that phrase. I don’t need to say, I think. I don’t need to say on the other hand.” Scratch all of that. Just say it. Stop the fluff. Get the core message as brief as possible. It’s considerate. People are busy. They just want to get the core message as efficiently as possible. So that’s Derek’s un-advice on how to turn a seed into a book.
Sharath
When you say about you being reluctant, it almost reminds me of this word I recently learned, by the way, it’s called autotelic. What it means is is doing something for its own sake. There is no rationale. I think that’s that’s how you start a business, right? That’s how you’re writing books. Because for the sake of it, you just want to you know, tell this experience out of the system. Is that right? Is that fair?
Derek Sivers
I only know the definition of autotelic that you just told me. I didn’t know that word before, but I usually call that intrinsic motivation. Meaning like I just want to do this. So that’s what computer programming is for me right now. I could just pay somebody else to do it.
Derek Sivers
But I love it. I wake up at six in the morning dreaming about computer programming. I love it, I just like doing it. But I don’t necessarily do it for its own sake. It’s always a means to an end to solve some other problem. And ideally, a business should never be for its own sake. That’s where you get these bloated, stupid businesses lobbying the government to make sure that the odds stay in their favor so they can continue to reward their shareholders. Fuck that. Shut down. Get rid of your stupid business that shouldn’t exist. You know, that’s like the cliche of Intuit lobbying the government to make tax filing harder so that QuickBooks can stay in business. Whereas the right thing to do for the world would make tax filing easier so that QuickBooks wouldn’t need to exist or, you know, sorry, not QuickBooks, but you know what I mean, whatever their tax filing software is. So yeah, that’s back to reluctance. So I don’t know autotelic. I’d like to learn more about that area, because I do notice that most of why I do anything is for these kind of intrinsic motivated reasons. So that might be autotelic.
Sharath
Right.
Sharath
Yeah, I think so. I might kind of summarize it in one way, but I think the true definition I’m just looking at the internet is so having an end or purpose in itself. So for its own sake is what I kind of derived. But anyway, I didn’t mean to, you know, give you a wrong definition.
Derek Sivers
No, you did describe it well. I think I just have to think about that more.
Sharath
Yeah, yeah. And let’s talk about “Useful Not True”. Like I said before, I think kind of reminded me of a couple things I wrote. Yeah don’t live in absolutes. You know, be open minded as much as possible and kind of welcome these new perspectives and do a 360 round always. And one of my favorite definitions in the book is about past like, you know, past is something that you experience from one point of view. And I love this story you kind of mentioned and why this book? Because there are different angles that you can go. You can talk about like lifestyle experience or you can talk about travel and bring that experience in a book form. Why is it you’re going after truth? Any rational?
Derek Sivers
No, going against truth. I’m trying to skewer the idea of truth. Okay, sorry to answer your question, though. Okay, a lot of your audience listening to this is into business and entrepreneurship. So for years I talked about business and entrepreneurship because people wanted to hear my story of how I started, grew and sold my company called CD Baby. And so I wrote articles which then Seth Godin turned into a book called “Anything You Want”. That was my point of view of lessons learned. And like, my philosophy of starting, growing and selling a company. And in it, I said many things like business is not about profit, business is about generosity or when you start a business, you’re creating your own little world where you get to make all the rules. So the reason to start a business is to make a little utopia. Make the world the way it should be in this little business. Okay now notice that everything I just said is not necessarily true. It’s just one perspective.
Sharath
True.
Derek Sivers
True. So for years--
Sharath
Pun intended.
Derek Sivers
I would say things like this. You know, “Businesses where you get to make your own utopia.” And somebody would push back, like, “Now that’s not necessarily true.” I’d say, “Yeah, duh. I know it’s not true, but it’s a useful belief to think of your business like a utopia. That’s useful to me because that thought process makes you think of things from scratch, or makes you ask the question, how could things be? How great could things be from our users point of view, from our customers point of view, from our clients point of view? How wonderful could it be? Forget what anybody else has ever done before. Forget norms. Forget how most things are done. How great could it be?” Now notice that’s a really useful question.
Derek Sivers
So I wasn’t trying to be true. I was trying to be useful. And so I kept talking about this through the years when people would push back on something I’m saying, saying, “But that’s not true.” I’d say, “I don’t care if it’s true. It’s useful because what the fuck is true anyway? Like are you going to say that you know the one true way that business should be? It sounds like it. Whereas I’m just acknowledging that there are infinite ways to look at this thing. I’m picking one that’s useful.”
Sharath
Yeah.
Derek Sivers
Okay. Well, what does useful mean? Useful means that it creates the actions I want. You know, we’re not robots. We’re humans that have motivations and psychology. So if choosing this belief because it’s useful, creates the actions that make me do the right thing, well, then I’m choosing to adopt that belief because that belief is useful to me. I’m never insisting that it’s true. That’s a dead end, closed way of thinking about it, because that means everybody else on Earth is false. So this idea kept coming up and finally, after a few years of saying, “No, I know it’s not true. It’s useful. I’m choosing beliefs because they’re useful, not because they’re true.” Then eventually I thought I should just dive into this subject more. So yeah, I felt it was worth the book.
Sharath
Yeah. You spent like, what, two years on the book?
Derek Sivers
Yeah. I dove deep. Dude, I read the Bible. I read books about Judaism, Islam. I read two books about Hinduism. I still don’t get it. I’m sorry, someday I want to understand it better. Actually, you know what? I went to both ChatGPT and Anthropic’s Claude AI to say, “Please teach me the basic tenets of Hinduism without any names or proper nouns” because every time I tried asking them about--
Sharath
You’re asking the wrong question.
Derek Sivers
Well, but every time I tried to learn about Hinduism, it was like, “Let me tell you a story about the ancient, in the chariot and o the this and the seven brothers.” I went, “No, no, what are the what are the core beliefs? What’s the worldview without all these names?” I know it might be the wrong question, but to me it was a better starting point than-- yeah. Anyway, boy, we just took a tangent.
Sharath
Yeah. No, I know, I know, I think just just my 2 cents there. I feel Bhagavad Gita is like, there is this one sentence or one line that I keep on reminding myself I don’t read the whole thing, or I never read the whole thing. This is something my grandmother passed it on to me. It’s like, “Remember this. This is the most important thing of every other thing in Gita.” It’s like the Bible of Hinduism. I think it goes on like this. I might butcher this, but the whole point is you do your deed and you move on.
Derek Sivers
Yes. The detachment from the outcome, focusing on the doing.
Sharath
And not the outcome. Everything will fall in place. Even it doesn’t. You did your duty and you just move on.
Derek Sivers
See, that’s a beautiful example.
Sharath
And I feel if you remember that, you can apply it to life. You can apply to your business, you can apply to your kids, even kids. Like she reminds me many times that don’t get attached to your kids because they’re not going to be with you forever. Just like you’re not with your parents right now, or they’re not with me. So when I go to India, she lives in a different place. My mom and dad, they live in a different place. I live in America. So she was like, “It’s all about detachment. So remind yourself about being detached. Try, try, try again. You don’t have to be living that detachment always. Then you won’t live life. But it’s attempt to detach from outcomes, from people.” Maybe it kind of is depressing, but I think if you put a positive spin on it. I feel is more energetic because you only have limited time with those. Whatever you have, that thing you detached with, then you’ll be more intentional. So it all revolves around that one idea, do your deed and you move on.
Derek Sivers
I love it.
Sharath
And I think that’s to me if anyone asks about Hinduism, I think that’s to me is Hinduism. Everything else is like you will find my a million characters with different animals being humans. And there are stories, there are sagas, there are wars and so on and so forth. But I feel that one line is to me very kind of like the definition of the whole practice, I would say.
Derek Sivers
I love it.
Sharath
But anyway, we took a tangent. I didn’t mean to, but it was wonderful.
Derek Sivers
Oh, sorry. The reason I brought all this up is because you asked about turning a hook into a book or a seed into a book that. Yeah, I decided two years ago I need to write a book about “Useful Not True”. So I had the title first and I had the idea. But in this case, I wanted to learn more about the idea. Like I had been saying, “I choose beliefs because they’re useful, not because they’re true.” And then I thought, you know, I can’t be the first person to talk about this. So I contacted a philosophy professor that I knew and asked her, “Hey, what other philosophers talk about this?” And she pointed me to pragmatism. She said, “Look into the philosophy of pragmatism.” So I did, I read five books about pragmatism and came to the conclusion that, no, that’s not what I’m talking about. And so then I learned about nihilism and existentialism and then, of course, you know, then I read a lot of books about religion, and then I read the Bible. But even though I grew up in America, I had never read the Bible before. So I read every single page, every sentence. I read the whole thing. And I was really focused for two years on this subject of how our beliefs are useful. And yeah. So I did a deep dive. So my rough draft of the book was once again like too much putting down everything I had learned. It was hundreds of pages. And then I spent a year reducing it down to the tiny little thing that you read.
Sharath
And I feel like for some reason, I get a sense that even if you just release the draft version, it would be really, really amazing. For some reason, I feel like because there are so many good ideas, I’m sure maybe like there’s a part two for it, I don’t know.
Derek Sivers
Well you and I have probably read a lot of the same books. There have been too many books I’ve read that have a great idea on page 300. And I feel bad that I know that most people won’t make it to page 300, and that brilliant idea will never be seen by most people. So I think short books are very useful. I think short chapters are useful. I try to, I don’t know if you’ve noticed, but my format is each chapter only has one idea. That’s it.
Sharath
Yeah, I’m so fascinated by when I was reading the book, it’s just one page and you can literally take a screenshot and save it. It’s like that rarely goes to a second page.
Derek Sivers
The average chapter length is 22 sentences.
Sharath
My God.
Derek Sivers
And that’s on purpose because anytime I realized I was trying to put two ideas into one chapter, I would split it into two chapters. So it’s just one idea per chapter. So you should be able to look at the table of contents. And just by looking at the chapter titles, get every lesson from the book.
Sharath
I think the other book I read on the similar format is “The Pursuit of Happiness”, by the employees of David Ogilvy.
Derek Sivers
Oh, wow. I don’t know.
Sharath
Yeah. They did a similar job. It’s like if you were to build a company, these are the things Ogilvy would have done if he were to do like a company again or start a company. And it’s all like, boom, boom. Everything is like so sharp it hits you like, every page. So it felt like that to me. Every page is like, “Oh, wow.” But I did take some of the things that I kind of felt very near and dear. And I just want to ask a couple of things one is you talked a lot about ideas and beliefs or tools and I just want to especially beliefs. You know, I like this. How do I put this? Like the flow, which is, “Beliefs create, create emotions, create actions.” And I think you have to choose a belief that puts you into action. Do you want to expand that, like in your experience? Like what belief you had that made you emotional, that actually driven you to action?
Derek Sivers
Yeah. I mean, let’s talk about one we all know. If you need to focus and complete a project, see if you’ve got a deadline. Something has to be done by 5:00 today, and it’s 3:00. You tell yourself this is the most important thing. Whatever happens on my phone doesn’t matter right now. You put your phone in airplane or do not disturb mode. Maybe even you put your computer into airplane mode. You know, something to prevent yourself from distraction. Because you say, “I need to finish this by 5:00. This is the most important thing right now. Nothing else matters as much as this.” Then you go home and it’s 7:00, and your kids are crawling on the floor with you. And you change your belief system to say, “This is the most important thing right now.” So you can deliberately realign your value system to make one thing more valuable right now, and then a different thing more valuable later in order to create the action, which is your focus and your full attention. That’s something we all do. Another example is okay, the cliche somebody in traffic is driving like an asshole and you’re angry at a stranger for driving the way they are. And so you tell yourself, “Wait, you know what? Maybe they have a sick child in the back that they are rushing to the hospital and just thinking that makes you go, “Ah. All right. I’m glad I’m not rushing a sick child to the hospital.”
Derek Sivers
Other people have problems too. Just choosing a different thought changed your physiology. It changed your mental state. It changed your relaxation. You know, your muscles relax. You go, “Ah. All right.” You know, you feel more tranquil and peaceful just by choosing a different thought. Right so choosing your thought, you do already. We all do this, we choose our thoughts for a certain result. Maybe you enter into negotiation like, “I’m a tiger. I’m going to attack. I’m gonna destroy these people.” Or maybe you enter into negotiation like, “I need to understand what this client really wants. What are their real needs? I need to put my own needs aside for a minute. And just spend the next hour truly understanding my client’s needs. Forget my needs right now.” You know, and that helps you understand. Then the next day, when you’re making your presentation or your proposal, you are thinking in terms of your own needs as well as their needs. Or maybe when you’re marketing, you’re thinking entirely of everything from their point of view. But when you’re making your long term business strategy, you’re thinking of everything from your point of view, etc. we all do this already. I’m just calling attention to it and suggesting that we do it even more deliberately in other aspects of life.
Sharath
I think that kind of is the whole point. I felt like you’re presenting this. You’re not forcing this. That’s that’s why I appreciate the book so much, it’s like, you’re introducing these, like I said in the intro, you introduced a new set of lens to see the world in a different way. It’s up to the listener to, like, pick it up, add more lens to it, or add more clarity to it according to you. And then you kind of, you know, move on or even like you don’t feel it. That’s fine too. I feel that is something I appreciate, which is even in the book so many times you mentioned about take it or leave it, take it or leave it. In that the summary is you take it or you leave it, you know. So it’s not--
Derek Sivers
Because it’s not the right answer. It’s not true. In fact, the very last sentence of the book says, “I hope you found this book useful, but not true. Please don’t think that anything in here is the answer. Just maybe you find this useful.”
Sharath
Yeah, absolutely. One of the favorite lines of mine is-- I always kind of like a story. Every instrument is a philosophy, every philosophy an instrument. And my question to you in your kind of describing that story. What philosophies is you have that really drives you like day to day. You’ve read so many things. Have you come to a conclusion about a certain philosophy that you want to practice or even, like, pass it on to your son? This worked for me. Maybe this will work for you.
Derek Sivers
Short answer is no. I think the metaphor in the book, actually the same metaphor used in my last two books. The metaphor of philosophies as instruments in an orchestra, mean that if you think of the classic orchestra with a bunch of violins and flutes and oboes and cellos and basses and French horns. Then you’re choosing instruments at different times, never declaring one to be correct or one to be better than the rest. It’s just okay for right now, I’m going to have the cellos and the flutes play at the same time, and then we’re going to stop. And then bum bum bum bum bum bum bum. Just the drums are going to play, and then the violins are going to come in with the drums. These are the philosophies of your life. You’re like, “All right, I need some selfishness right now. I need to think of myself as the most important thing right now, because I need some self-care to prioritize myself. I’ve been prioritizing others too much.” So, you know, that’s the instrument I need to bring in to life right now. But that’s only for eight hours during the day, because as soon as you get home, you can’t approach your kids thinking like you’re the most important thing in the world. They’re the most important thing. So the drums stop and suddenly in come the trumpets, which are, you know, giving your full attention to your kids. So I do think that it’s all about seeing these philosophies not as all encompassing or as correct, or the one true way to follow, but as just a means to an end.
Sharath
I love that I feel again, more openness again, more experimentation, trying different things. It almost again giving the sense of be open to everything. And I think the answer to the little girl’s question in the book as well. I forgot his name. The musician, he says, “Time is the answer for me. I want to play one instrument in one time, a couple others in other time. That is my kind of my favorite thing.” There are so many nuggets, Derek. I feel like, you know, I can go on and on about the book, but I feel one thing that hit me really hard, especially when you’re talking about taking that first step immediately. I’m very curious about your first step. I think not even building CD Baby like or picking up. I think I read it on your bio that you picked one instrument. And you were like, “I want to be a musician. My career is in music.” Even before that, do you remember when you took your first action that made you so uncomfortable, that actually gave you enough confidence to take one more action?
Derek Sivers
Ooh, it’s a really fun question. I’ve never thought about this. Getting on stage in high school at the age of 17, jumping on stage at the talent show and singing for the first time. Everybody knew I could play guitar. I was good at guitar, but nobody, nobody, not even my bandmates, had ever heard me sing. And I got up on stage on the microphone, and I sang in front of a room of 500 people on stage with my band. That was the first big one. God then I went off to college at 17 and had a lot of those moments where I really pushed myself deliberately into discomfort. Yeah that was, you know, I grew up in-- sorry where did you grow up? Where in India?
Sharath
I’m part of South India, Hyderabad. There is a small village near Hyderabad. That’s called Rajahmundry. It’s on the coast of Godavari, River Godavari.
Derek Sivers
Okay.
Sharath
So I grew up there all my life.
Derek Sivers
So it’s small enough so that it’s like, did going into the city feel a little bit scary to you?
Sharath
Oh hell yes.
Derek Sivers
Okay, okay.
Sharath
Oh my God. My parents they traveled a lot throughout the India. They saw the whole thing. They kind of want to protect me. And so they kept me in one place for a very long time.
Derek Sivers
Uh.
Sharath
Because my dad is like, “Let me do everything. Teach him from my end. And when he’s ready, he goes out.” So I had a very, I would say, incredible childhood. Like, unlike the other stories we generally hear, which is very, you know, traumatic and whatnot. But I had a very traumatic, I would say 20s. So like, I had to struggle so much because it was the first time I was not with my parents, on my own. So yeah, just just sharing my experience there. But. Yeah. Go on. I didn’t mean to deviate.
Derek Sivers
Oh, no, I asked. Because yeah, I think going from a sheltered upbringing, I also had a quite a sheltered upbringing in the little town of Hinsdale, Illinois, and then going to downtown Boston. Had a lot of those moments where you’re walking down a dark alleyway and there’s rats running in the street, and there’s prostitutes standing up against the wall, and I’m just kind of going, “Okay, I’m going to walk through this.” Moving to New York City felt like that. Now New York City is a more comfortable place, But in 1990, when I moved there, it was very, very crime ridden. But sorry let’s get back to the real question. I don’t need to step by step through every scary thing I didn’t lik. But let’s say, yeah, with each thing you do, it expands your self-identity, right? So. one of my main mottos in life is: Whatever scares you, go do it, because then it won’t scare you anymore. As soon as you do this little thing that seems scary and it can even be as small as, you know, talking to that intimidating person right there that you see, like somebody that you’re intimidated by because of their fame or beauty, and you notice that you’re scared. So you go, “Okay, whatever scares you, go do it. Here I go.” And you go talk to that person. And as soon as you do, you realize it wasn’t that scary. And it keeps adding to your repertoire of things that no longer scare you. So when I moved to New York City at the age of 20, it scared me. New York City felt very intimidating.
Derek Sivers
Well, not just the crime, but just the size and also the legend of it. You know, the legend of, “If you can make it here, you can make it anywhere. This is a tough city. It’ll chew you up and spit you out. The Big Apple, man.” You know, all of this legend of New York City. And I moved to New York City at 20, and by the age of 22, New York City was completely my comfort zone. I had friends all across the city. I knew every neighborhood. I had great experiences everywhere. I had felt so much kindness and connection. This is my city. I still to this day, like I’m so comfortable in New York City. I love that place. Now imagine picking another city that terrifies you right now, whether that’s Rio de Janeiro or Beijing or Islamabad. And imagine going to this foreign city and turning it into your comfort zone, and how empowering that would be to be like, “Whoa. Baghdad is now in my comfort zone.” Imagine that. Imagine having a lot of friends in Baghdad and feeling like Baghdad is comfortable and friendly. And your third home. Oh, my God, what a sense of expansion that would be. And then to just know that you could do that again. Like, that’s kind of my dream right now. But okay, again, this is not for everybody. But this is a lot of what drives me, is this desire to keep going. Yeah to keep going to the places, to keep doing what scares me until it doesn’t scare me anymore.
Sharath
Well, one question I have for the book and I have a couple and then kind of we can wrap it up. I want to be very mindful about your time as well. Do you feel is there anything that you could have added to that book? I know there are so many ideas, but just candidly speaking, you’ve edited so many things, but anything that might have been part of the book, but for whatever reason, it’s not any idea or any thought or any story.
Derek Sivers
Oh, in my folder on my computer where I have the text of the final “Useful Not True”. The whatever number of chapters that is, right next to it is the folder of everything I cut. So whenever I delete something, I save it into a separate file just in case I miss it in a few months and I want to come back to it, or if I want to repurpose it into an article or something. So yeah, at this point, the folder of the things I cut from the book is much bigger than the folder of what went into the book, so I know everything I cut. It’s all there. I had some fun fables about two aliens that were observing Earth one. One had a device that could hear everyone’s thoughts, and a different one had a device that could see everything on Earth. And it was about the discrepancy about their trying to calibrate their instruments, and they’re confused because what they see happening is not what they hear happening. So, lik one alien with his instrument that can hear everybody’s thoughts. Hears someone under attack. You know, this woman is being attacked by ten people at once, and they’re just viciously and cruelly beating her and attacking her. And so he quickly tells his other alien about the coordinates and the other alien looks with his instrument that can see everything, and he just sees a woman sitting in a room alone. There’s nobody around. And they’re confused. They verify that it’s the right coordinates. And yeah, sure enough, that woman sitting in a room alone is experiencing in her head that she’s under vicious attack. She feels that everyone is attacking her, but it’s not actually happening. And there were a few more examples like that.
Sharath
Yeah. That would be fun.
Derek Sivers
It’s a fun metaphor.
Sharath
Fun metaphor.
Derek Sivers
In the rough draft, it confused enough people that I chopped it. And so there was a fun thing. You know, we’ve talked about India a couple times here. I’ll do one more. It’s an interesting book called “Cows, Pigs, Wars and Witches” written by an anthropologist in the, I don’t know, 80s, maybe. Masterpiece fascinating book but in it, he says that the reason that Islam and Judaism, both are against pigs is that specifically in the Middle East, pigs do not do well in heat. That’s why they roll in the mud in places like the Middle East, whereas in colder climates they don’t do that. Why China is not against the pig is because, you know, pigs can grow up in an environment that’s more suited to pigs, whereas in the Middle East it just wasn’t a good environment for pigs. And so part of the reason that both Islam and Judaism say, “No, don’t eat the pigs.” Was to discourage pig farming in the Middle East in particular. And then he talks about the cows in India. Why are the cows sacred? He said, “Because the population of India could not support cows as meat.” You’ve got how many? You know, 1.4 billion people. Which I’m sure it was still a lot of people, even thousands of years ago when these religious beliefs were started. He said, “Well, India just can’t support the cows meat. The only way we could support cows is to revere them, to keep them alive and useful as long as possible for milk and cheese and pulling plows and whatnot. But do not eat the meat.”
Derek Sivers
And so one way to make sure that that happens is to put it into the sacred beliefs. Like, “Cows are sacred. Do not eat them.” And so it’s interesting how he talks about even these sacred beliefs as having a useful purpose. And that’s why they became doctrine. So I talked about that in the book, but then it was in the kind of like a final edit. It just kind of went,” Ah, this is distracting from the point.” So I chopped it. Yeah. There’s a lot of stuff like that that I think I will turn into articles on my website someday. And you might have caught I think it was like the second to last chapter. There were so many things that I cut that I felt were so interesting, but I just wanted to keep this book down to its core essence. So finally I changed my belief system about it was to say, you know what? The book is not the final answer. The book is the beginning of a conversation that can continue on the website. It can continue elsewhere. This book is just bringing up the subject. It doesn’t have to have the final answer. Because otherwise I could just write this thing for years and make a thousand pages, you know. So instead I will just keep talking on this subject on my website.
Sharath
I’m looking forward fo the questions you mentioned in the book that there’s CBT. Like the questions list will grow on it. The collection of great questions you can ask yourself.
Derek Sivers
I got to do that. Those are posted, I think they are on the website now. It’s sive.rs/u. The letter U as in useful.
Sharath
I have to tell you this, the alien story would have been so fun on the audiobook because I one of the things I kind of noticed you do incredible voices.
Derek Sivers
Thank you. I love doing voices.
Sharath
I’ve heard many audiobooks. They’re very straight, plain. Read it, get it. Move on. But you kind of live.
Derek Sivers
I just kind of can’t help it. If you’re quoting somebody else. If you say, like, “The woman walked into the room and said.” Well, I can’t just keep using my voice. I can’t just the woman walked into the room and said, “Hey, what are you guys doing?” It’s like, “No. The woman walked in the room and said, ‘hey, what are you guys doing?’” I just can’t help it. I just imagine the person. To me the most fun one, though, was did you see the chapter about the bridge guard?
Sharath
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, they have to tell the truth or else nobody will cross the bridge. Yeah, yeah.
Derek Sivers
So I really have fun with the bridge guard voice because it’s like trying a new thing with my throat where it’s like I relax the throat muscles all the way, and it’s like, “No one. No one can cross> like, oh, that’s fun to do. To try to be the big fucking genie, you know? Anyway, thank you for appreciating that. Thank you for indulging my stupid voices.
Sharath
No, no, I think it’ll be awesome to do those voices and make it more human again. It’s not like, you know, you’re just reading and moving on. All right a couple questions. One thing I just want to ask about, is there anything that you’re struggling with right now that you haven’t overcome? You’re trying to like oh, I’m still learning. I’m in this process of, the reason I’m asking that question is I do want to understand the mentality behind Derek Sivers and what is like the process tod take again. Be it problem solving or be it like, okay, I’m very curious. I’m a learner. So I’m just curious that to hear your thoughts.
Derek Sivers
The two that come to mind first are, I should be exercising more than I do because I often find it boring. Like to to do the exercise I know I should be doing, which is like weight lifting, like resistance weight training to strengthen muscles and bones. I think I need to take a lesson and do something to make it more entertaining. Actually, that’s what happened to Spanish right before I went to South America. I just did maybe three weeks of learning some Spanish. And I found it really fun to do it while I was weightlifting because, you know, weightlifting is kind of boring. It’s like, you know, you do like five reps, which takes like 10s, and then you’re supposed to rest for two minutes before you do it again. So I put on Pimsleur’s language audio series of Spanish, and I sat there and worked on my Spanish. While lifting weights. I went, “Oh, okay, this is a really nice balance.” Because now it’s engaging me mentally. It’s something I was going to do anyway. And lifting weights is so boring. But it’s necessary. So anyway I’d like to turn that into a real habit. Let’s say that’s number two. And then number one I mentioned earlier, I’m still finding my balanced tranquility around the subject of desperately wishing that I was living somewhere more interesting right now, and yet needing to be here for my son.
Derek Sivers
So I love New Zealand. Great little country, but I’ve been here for 12 years and like my internal clock, just likes to move every year, just for most of my life. Every two years I move. I like going to new places. But because his mother is bound here like “It’s been 12 years in Wellington, New Zealand, I love it, but come on, there’s the big world out there that I so desperately want to be in.” And I’m just yearning. But yet I want to be with my boy full time and he wants that too. And so it’s just trying to find that balance of like, how do I go to Saudi Arabia to get to know this place that I’m so curious about? How do I go to Kenya and Zanzibar and how do I go to Nigeria? How do I go to China? Oh my God, China. Oh my God, India. How do I go to these places and yet be there for my son? Or how do I, you know, let it go, just do my work, write my book, do my programming. Just wait six more years when my boy is 18 and doesn’t need me around anymore. Then I will go, like, patience. You know? So those are the two things I’m wrestling with since you asked.
Sharath
Man ,I wish, I wish you will travel more. You know, sending those wipes towards you.
Derek Sivers
Thank you.
Sharath
But last curious question I have for you. Your discipline level is at the next level, like you keep on doing, again, pushing yourself, trying to write more books, be more present. There is a level of discipline there, like I would say, like LeBron playing that long, keeping his health. Not comparing anything. But at least that comes to my mind because the longevity he brought into the game nobody did that right. So, my question is like can you share like the habits you have be it health, be it mental be it like, you know, anything that helped you become so consistent over the years. Doing the same craft, you know, being better in coming back to the same thing again or keeping that curiosity alive. How do you kind of again, I think you’ve kind of said what drives you. But habits wise what keeps you like, “Oh, wow. Okay. I want to do it again.”
Derek Sivers
This one’s easy. It’s got one single answer.
Sharath
Oh, okay.
Derek Sivers
There’s a story of a student who went to Plato and said, “Mr. Plato, how do I become wise?” And Plato walked him down to the beach and said, “Just walk with me.” And they walked into the ocean until they were like chest high in the water. And then Plato, who got his nickname because he was big and strong, like a plate. Grabbed the student’s head and held him underwater until the the student was choking and kicking and squirming and, you know, fighting for his life to get a breath. And then he lifted him up out of the water and said, “When you want wisdom as badly as you wanted that next breath, nothing will stop you.” And that story is the answer in different aspects of life. My whole life I had only slowly gained weight and gained weight and gained weight and gained weight until at one point in early 2020, I felt like-- it was actually because I was getting the suit. Since you asked, going full circle to your very first question, because I was getting fitted for a custom suit. I was like, “Damn it, I’m finally gonna lose weight.” Like in six months. They’re going to fit me for this suit. I’m going to lose weight in the next six months.
Derek Sivers
And it became like the student needing the next breath. It was like, this is now the most important thing. I’m going to lose weight now. This is more important to me than the taste of that cookie or that chicken. I’m going to lose weight. And so I did. I lost a lot of weight, and when people asked how I did it, I said, “You know how everybody knows how. There’s no shortage of how. What there’s a shortage of is the burning desire. You won’t make it happen until it’s the most important thing to you.” The how is just easy. It’s about the desire. If you want it badly enough you’ll do it. It’s the same thing with discipline around anything. It’s the same thing with my burning desire to live around the world to, you know, do whatever scares me until it doesn’t scare me anymore. I want that so badly that I’m willing to give up so many other things in life. I’ll just give you a stupid example. I thought about getting a bigger computer monitor yesterday. There’s like, a bigger vertical computer monitor that would be better for me for coding. I considered it, and then I thought, “That’ll just be one more thing making me a little less mobile in life. So no, I won’t get it.”
Derek Sivers
And I make those decisions like a thousand times a year, of constantly choosing which choice will make me more mobile or less mobile? And I choose the more mobile choice over and over again, even though it means lacking some comforts in life. Because I want so badly to live nomadically for the rest of my life. So when somebody says, “How did you do it? How did you just up and move your life from US to Singapore, Singapore to New Zealand, you know, New Zealand to Oxford or whatever?” It’s because how is easy. It’s a matter of wanting it badly enough. So yeah, I think there are just some things, minimalism in writing. I will work for 1000 hours to have a few less words. Minimalism in code. Like my tech programming side, I’m constantly doing the more difficult work to have more minimalism in code. More self-expansion in my understanding of the world. These are the things that-- parenting, you know, shutting down what I’m doing to give my kid my full attention. It’s hard, but it’s so important to me that I make it happen. Yeah so sorry. That’s why I said it’s like, one single answer to all of these things is just if you want it badly enough, you’ll make it happen.
Sharath
Wow. That’s that’s incredible. I do this one last thing called rapid fire five. I just ask five questions quickly, you know?
Sharath
Yeah. Fast answers. Favorite place you lived so far?
Derek Sivers
You got it.
Derek Sivers
Oxford, England.
Sharath
Recent book you read that you couldn’t stop recommending to others?
Derek Sivers
City of gold. The history of Dubai.
Sharath
Favorite pastime with your son.
Derek Sivers
Sitting in a mossy forest. Talking about life.
Sharath
What’s your comfort food?
Derek Sivers
Black beans with cheddar cheese mixed in salt and pepper. A little dash of chili oil and a scrambled egg on top, but then mixed in.
Sharath
Still healthy.
Derek Sivers
Arguably.
Sharath
The last thing. One lesson that you’ve learned for you being Derek Sivers so long that you want to pass it to your son.
Derek Sivers
I have been Derek Sivers for so long. I like that. Whatever scares you, go do it.
Sharath
I was kind of expecting that. So, Derek, appreciate you.
Derek Sivers
Maybe I should change it to stop being so predictable. Sorry. Anyway, thank you for the questions.
Sharath
No, thank you so much. I do appreciate you. And we’re going to keep everything, you know, all the show notes, link to the book, “Useful Not True”.
Derek Sivers
And can you please link to the book that you mentioned? I almost interrupted you 20 minutes ago to ask. You were talking about a book. Oh, Ogilvy’s employees, could you please put that in the show notes? I’m curious about that one.
Sharath
Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah, “The pursuit of happiness”. That’s one thing I will do. But no, I appreciate you. Thank you so much again. You are one of my dream guests. I’ve listened to you on Tim Ferriss and a bunch of other people’s podcasts. And I was like, “Whoa, this guy, I should meet him. Even if it’s virtual, I have to meet him.” So today is like one of the best days and again, thank you so much. And, you know, any closing thoughts before we wrap up?
Derek Sivers
Yeah. Anybody listening to this, if you listened all the way to the end. You know, the reason Sharath and I are here talking is that he just emailed me out of the blue. So I actually really love my email inbox. I really like hearing from people around the world. It’s one of my favorite things. I spend about 1 to 2 hours a day in my email inbox. I don’t do any social media, so it’s like my email inbox is my connection with the world. So please if you’re listening to this, go send me an email. Just go to my website, say hello, ask me anything, I don’t care, just introduce yourself. I really enjoy it. I answer every single email and I really enjoy it.
Sharath
Absolutely. We’ll do that in the show notes as well. We’ll add i. But that’s it, folks. You know, I’m so grateful for Derek. And, you know, for you listening till now, and we have more awesome guests on the line. and that’s it. Stay tuned. Stay healthy. And do you. Cheers.