Tyson Popplestone
host: Tyson Popplestone
inspiration from early work, balancing multiple interests, writing and creativity, personal growth, psychological routines
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Transcript:
Tyson
I feel like it’s the first thing I do whenever I go to a podcast that I’m a big fan of or a YouTube channel, I’ll click on the order of videos to oldest, and I’ll go back and see what the first video looked like. Yeah. And I don’t know, I just love watching that progress take place over time.
Derek Sivers
I think it’s more inspiring that way. If we only compare ourselves against the polished and perfected output of the masters, then it becomes anti-inspiring because we think, “Oh God, I suck. Just never mind. Too much work.” But if you compare yourself to the rough drafts and even early Beatles demos and I don’t mean early like the Beatles when they were young, I mean like even “Abbey road”, when you hear these rough demos of songs that later turned into masterpieces, but they started out not so great. To me, that’s super inspiring to feel that feeling like I could do that. So to see the earliest podcasts of somebody and go, “Yeah, I could do that, that’s not so great.” And it reminds you that it’s just a constant iteration to improve it.
Tyson
For sure. That was kind of my inspiration to get involved in stand up comedy. Like exactly what you just said. Just seeing a couple of comedians try new stuff and just absolutely bomb. Like to steal your words like I could do that was what came to mind. But it is funny when you do often see like in my instance, a comedian, like a really polished comedian getting up on stage and you go, “Man, have they ever bombed? Like, have they ever once had a bad night?” And then you hear an interview with them about all of the thousands of bad nights they’ve had, and talking about how it’s just such an essential part of the development as a comedian. I’m sure it’s the same as you say with music. It is funny, but there’s a sick part of me as well that’s like, you know, let’s just put that real good side forward. So everyone just assumes that Tyson has had it together forever.
Derek Sivers
Of course. We all have that impulse. We all want to do that.
Tyson
Yeah, it’s interesting man. I’m so interested. I said to you just before we hit record that there’s so many different directions we could take the conversation, because I think from my perspective, looking at your work, it doesn’t seem to matter which field we’re looking at, from parenting to music to business to slow thinking. I feel in some regard to all of those areas, there’s probably a conversation I could have with you about each. But I guess the one thing that I’m constantly fascinated by, and this is a selfish question, because I’ve got a couple of plates spinning in my own life. And, you know, from parenting to comedy to business and the age old question, which I’m constantly curious to see how people manage it and do each of those areas well, comes from that perspective of how do you actually know how much time to dedicate to spinning each plate. Because you’re a guy I think when people speak about it, they look at you and they’re like, “Oh, he’s a high quality operator in the things that he commits to.” But there are a few things and I don’t know, people often say, “Okay, you’ve just got to choose one thing and do it with all your heart for the rest of your life.” And I’m like, well, I’ve got quite a number of things that seem to be going on, even if I was trying to eliminate.
Derek Sivers
Sorry. I thought there was another word after eliminate, but I guess you eliminated that word. How meta. People can do things serially and present sent them in parallel. So if you go to my website and you see all the things I’ve done, it looks like I’ve done a lot of things at once. But actually, no, I’m a total single focused guy. I can’t do more than one thing at a time. I have a terrible handicap in that I can only really think of one thing at a time. I’m the worst multitasker. I’m just terrible. Well, let’s just say I’m great at just focusing on one thing at a time for a really long time. Maybe it’s just my value system, because I have felt the pain of trying to do too many things at once, and then nothing gets done. It’s like computer’s do that. If you try to work them too hard to do too much, they freeze up and you have to just unplug it from the wall to get it to do anything. I can be like that where if I try to do too much, suddenly just nothing at all is getting done in any aspect. And I’ve learned this the hard way. So now my value system says I have to decide what is the one thing I’m doing, and I do that to completion. And everything else that I want to do and everything else that comes up in all of my other ideas all just get pushed aside until this one thing is done and I have to make myself do it this way, because I’ve learned the hard way. It’s the only way I’ll get things done.
Tyson
Man, I relate to that on such a close level. I know there’s a lot of conversations I’ve had with friends who do as well. The idea of freezing up because you’ve got unlimited options is, I mean, embarrassingly familiar to me. I mean, it seems to be a theme at the end of each of my afternoons where I’ll go, “I think I got what I needed to get done, done.” But it’s a horrible feeling, I know, but I often fluctuate between going, all right, well, I’m just going to have that single minded focus. And say that for example, that might be comedy. And you go, okay, well, there’s a number of elements under the umbrella of comedy writing, performing, editing. And I feel as though that challenge of just trying to navigate how to prioritize each discipline that’s required in the field that you’ve solely chosen to focus on is still a challenge. Like, how do you navigate that?
Derek Sivers
Okay, so I oversimplified to start with. So when I say I pick just one thing. To be fair, I spend like 30 hours a week hanging out with my kid. And so you could say that’s almost a full time job, right? And when I say hanging out, I mean like really like one on one, no devices. Just giving him my full attention about 30 hours a week. It’s a lot. But in my case, like, I’ve only got one kid. I’m only going to do this once. I just made that decision long ago that if I have a kid someday, I’m giving my full attention because it’s a short chunk of my life, relatively speaking. So I do spend, I don’t know, many, many hours a week writing or doing that one thing that I said I’m doing. But then as it’s antidote, as it’s balance, I have this 30 hours a week with my kid. So anybody listening to this, you don’t have to pick only one thing. Often one thing can kind of need its antidote, right? Like you can be a mathematician and a rock climber, and those two can go really well together because they’re so opposite that each one can become like the antidote to the other. Your rock climbing and it’s physical and it hurts, but it’s not so intellectually growing. So, you know, you’re a mathematician on the other side, but then it’s just sitting in a chair. So much so, you know, you can balance yourself like that. But then your question about within one meta pursuit, how do you do the sub pursuits? Well, that’s like your pursuit, your training, it’s like a musician knowing what they need to practice or a bodybuilder knowing what muscles they need to work on. That’s just kind of your practice and your skill, I think. I think that’s just too unique for everybody, isn’t it?
Tyson
Sure. That is like a little bit of freedom that comes with that observation as well, isn’t it? Because you can spend so much time looking for the perfect approach and looking for that perfect scaffold of, “All right, how do I stack all of these things in the perfect way?” And the truth is, it’s like, well, what Derek Sivers does and what Tyson Popplestone does is going to be two very different approaches.
Derek Sivers
Yeah. Even my good friends are surprised to see how I live. I’m just recently I mean, as of like two days ago, realizing how weird I am that most days I wake up at 4:30 or 5 in the morning and I start writing, and I write until 10 or 11 p.m. and I stop to eat for maybe 15 minutes. I stopped to pee quite a bit. I did go and get a cup of tea quite a bit, and then I stopped for maybe an hour a day to exercise, whether that’s a walk in the woods or lifting weights or something like that. And that’s about it. That’s my whole day. And I just realized because a friend was here visiting that on a typical week, the number of hours when I’m not working and not with my kid. Like either giving my work, my full attention, or my kid, my full attention. It’s only really like an hour or two a week that I spend not doing one of those two things. And I noticed this because somebody asked, like, why I don’t have a kitchen table for example. It’s like, well, I just eat standing at the counter in five minutes. I don’t sit down. What’s there to sit for? And why don’t you have a TV? Why would I have a TV to watch things? I don’t watch things. I’m either writing or I’m playing with my kid. That’s all I do. I don’t have a balanced life. I mean, you know, I don’t have a multi-colored life. I have a really single, focused life.
Tyson
Did you say you work from 4:30 to 11 p.m.?
Derek Sivers
Yeah. 4:30 a.m. to 11 p.m..
Tyson
I could have sworn you’d misspoke. I thought, okay, no, an hour or so break in between there.
Derek Sivers
Yeah. A typical day then I go to bed. You know, I’ll work until I catch myself falling asleep. I do shower, surprisingly. And then if I catch myself falling asleep, I’m like, “All right, all right. Okay. Look at the time. Okay. It’s late.” Go take a quick shower, go to sleep for six hours, get up and do it again. This is my life.
Tyson
How did you fall into-- I doubt you fell into that program. It sounds like something that was cultivated over time. I mean, no one can write for that long without a really focused attention and maybe like a real passionate heart burning a lot of the time behind what it is you’re writing about. But writing is a subject just in general that fascinates me, like writers. I mean, as I’ve said a couple of times, stand-up comedy is my outlet, where I do a lot of writing, and the structure of that looks nothing like what you just spoke about, but I do enjoy the process of it. It’s got so many elements to it that I seem to enjoy. It’s got the discipline aspect because a lot of the time, like we spoke about at the outset, you’ll see a refined song and you go, “Oh, they’re just a good musician.” Or you’ll see like a finished draft of a book. You’re like, “Oh, they’re just a great author.” But I know through listening to enough people that there’s like a whole heap of chaos and just muddy water that you’ve got to navigate your way through in order to get to a lot of those gold nuggets. But I often hear people say they’ll sit down for a 2 or 3 hour chunk of time to write, but I think you’ve just broken the record on on the longest stretch of writing time.
Derek Sivers
Well, to be fair, sorry hold on. Again I oversimplified to start, within that time of writing, it will be some of it writing my book, some of it doing a bit of programming, some of it answering some emails. It’s basically just I kind of mean like 4:30 to 11, like fingers on keys tapping. There can be different kinds of writing in there.
Tyson
Yeah. And do you have a general scaffold that you use for your own writing? Or is it just kind of led by the most important project, as you were saying before?
Derek Sivers
Yeah. Led by the most important. So up until eight weeks ago I was working on this book called “Useful Not True” that I gave you the little preview of. And I was working only on that for two years. No articles, no other kind of writing except my diary. And then eight weeks ago, I finished. And so now I’ve been doing all the things that I pushed aside for two years. Okay, anybody listening to this and Tyson yourself, I feel like I’m always keeping the listener in mind. So whoever is listening to this, I know they tune in wanting to get, like, actionable tips and things that they can use for their own life. I feel like I accidentally took this conversation too deep down the Derek hole like this isn’t supposed to be about me as much as it is about the listener. So I kind of feel bad about some of the stuff I’ve been saying for the last 15 minutes like that I know I nerd out in my own particular way. But even that’s coming from my unique circumstances of like having had this company where I was a big multi-tasker for many years, and then I sold the company, and I moved to a remote island in the middle of the Pacific in order to get away from humanity. So I’m in kind of a weird situation that I think doesn’t apply to most people, so I’d love it if you could help steer us back into the useful.
Tyson
Sure, I’ll do my best. Unfortunately, I find everything you’re saying so useful.
Derek Sivers
Oh. Oh, well.
Tyson
So helpful. But in saying that, I mean, I had a big asterisk next to the book, for useful purposes. I mean, as you said, you sent me a copy, which was incredible. I listened to the audio version. I spent a lot of the time driving back and forth. I’m about an hour and a half outside of Melbourne, and so an audiobook version seems to be a real key for me because I’m driving in there regularly to gig. But the subject of psychology, the subject of framing, the subject of just the way you perceive the many situations that you navigate your way through in any given day, let alone any given month or year is is fascinating. I’ve got a really good routine with exercise. I’d say that the one thing if I had to give myself a pat on the back about say, Hey Tyson, you do this well.” Would be like the exercise structure that I have in place. I really love it, which is a win. It’s some downtime. I come back feeling good. I like the feeling of being fit and it’s a discipline. I know that on the days where I don’t really feel like going to the gym or going for the run, I’ll be grateful post-workout, whatever I choose to do that I that I chose to do it. The other thing that I’m really interested in, but I find it harder to measure the successfulness of is developing as good a routine around psychology and the way that I view myself, or the way that I view my challenges, the way that I view my life.
Tyson
Because I find it a little harder to measure how effectively you’re doing it. At the end of the day, you can cross off an exercise and you can go, “Oh Tys, you did the exercise. Well done. Good.” And I think as a result of saying all that, I’m constantly drawn into different forms of psychology or positive mindset or--- I don’t know what the right term for it is. And I think that’s why I really enjoyed what it was you had to say in the most recent book, because it really opens that can of worms, and I feel like it gives you a little bit of a ticket to play, like maybe the secret or the answer to what it is I’m trying to ask is that I’ve been looking too long for like, “Hey, what’s the one size fits all approach to developing the best mindset?” But like with such a variance in every individual, the people who are going to read that book, there’s going to be no one size fits all. I don’t know if you wanted to speak to that thought more than a question. Because it sounds as though it’s a subject you’ve really had to navigate your way through as well, through so many of the different things that you commit to.
Derek Sivers
Well, first, a quick minor question. What did you mean a routine around psychology. What would that even look like?
Tyson
Well, on paper I would say it’s like, “All right Tys, if you can spend 20 minutes meditating, if you can do a little bit of journaling.” I find thought monitoring sheets really helpful, like whenever I go through a little period of life where I’m like, “Oh, I feel a little flat, or I feel a little pissed off.” Or whatever it might be. I’ll often try and just identify whatever thought is just ringing around and around in my mind. And I think sometimes I’ll just accept that as true without even really thinking of it.
Derek Sivers
Right.
Tyson
So I’ll provide a counter thought to that and go, “Hey, but what if this thought is true? Then oh, well, maybe that’s true.” You know what I mean? And it’s the idea that you speak about in your book, like getting to decide what the actual event means. Like, there’s no subjective truth that this event means this. There’s a number of things that could mean. And so thought monitoring sheets is another part of that. But I mean, there’s endless lists of things that could be included on this hypothetical list.
Derek Sivers
I see what you mean.
Tyson
The training regime I might use.
Derek Sivers
Okay. So in that sense, I don’t have a psychology routine except for one, which is now every single day I do go to my journal and just dump whatever’s on my mind. And I used to only do it in the moments like you just described, where it’s like, if my thoughts were muddled and I was feeling stuck in some way, then I would turn to my diary, only then to sort out my tangled thoughts. So if I read old diaries from like 30 years ago, that’s all that’s in there. It would be like 14 days of nothing. And then I’m upset. I’m frustrated. This frustrating thing happened. I don’t even know why. Why am I upset about this? And then ten days of silence. And then another kind of like, I’m mad about this. So unfortunately, I would look back at my old diaries going, “Man, I don’t really know anything about my life then except what was upsetting me or confusing me.” And so I didn’t realize that until the old age of 42 when I went, “Man, I really wish that I had kept a daily diary back then. I did some really interesting stuff in my life, but I’m forgetting it already because all I’ve got are these faint, distant memories of what I was doing 20 years ago. It’s like, man, that would have been so cool if I had a daily diary back then.”
Derek Sivers
I thought, well, even though my life isn’t as interesting now, It’s better now than never. You know, the second best time to plant a tree is now. So I started at the age of 42, writing every single day, no matter what. Even if it’s, like, “Sat at home and worked on my book all day. Came up with one interesting idea about what commitment means.” That might be a whole diary entry, you know, but at least there’s a snapshot. So future me in 30 years can look back to see what I was doing back then. And I’m so glad I started doing that, 12 years ago now. So that’s my only ritual. But in doing that one ritual, kind of maybe like your exercise ritual, the other benefits can come. You know, you may go for a run and yes, it’s good for your legs and your lungs, but it’s also just good for your psyche to break up the workday or to remind yourself that this is a priority, even when everything else seems urgent. You remind yourself that this is more important. So same with my diary. So many great things come from that, and if I am feeling muddled about anything, I work it through in my diary, which usually starts by questioning everything.
Tyson
For sure. For sure. Just asking an alternative question to the one that’s been on repeat through your mind.
Derek Sivers
Yeah.
Derek Sivers
It’s basically being skeptical and doubting everything, especially my own thoughts, but even doubting conventional wisdom. Like I’ll just pick on something because you have little kids. People say kids need stability, but yet I wanted to live all around the world, so I kind of challenged that. Like, who says kids need stability? Are you sure about that? Where’s the proof that kids need stability or what? Or they died? No. So it turns out that kids for mental health need to feel safe. But you can feel safe while traveling the world with your parents. In fact, it can be fun because they don’t have any preset idea of the speed limit that they should be traveling at. For some people, if they move once a year, that would be like, whoa, whiplash. It’s too much. But for a kid, they don’t know that moving once a year is a lot. That might just be normal to them. So this is the case for me, actually, when I was like age 0 to 6, we moved every year at least. And I loved it. I just thought that was the normal pace. And I was so sad at the age of six when I found out that we’re not going to keep doing that anymore, I was like, “What do you mean stay in one place?” Sorry, I shouldn’t have gone too deep into that example. But in your field or your life or your social circle right now, there are just some truisms that you just take to be absolute fact because you’ve heard it enough. Smart people say it. That’s what it is. You know, I should get a good job or I need to start my own company or whatever it is. And you can look at that and put a big question mark on it going, “Well, wait a second. That’s not true. That’s just one point of view.”
Tyson
Yeah yeah.
Tyson
Yeah it’s a good point. Like it’s so funny with so much of the most helpful things is a lot of the time on paper it’s the most simple thing to do. But a lot of the time I’ll overlook the simple because I’m like, “Surely something so simple can’t be so significant.” But yeah, it’s going for a 30 minute run on a daily basis that leaves you feeling relatively good or just don’t have another biscuit.
Derek Sivers
Right.
Tyson
It’s the stuff we know, but it’s the stuff we ignore for whatever reason. I’m sure there’s a number of reasons that it could be that, but what was the motivation for you to actually put pen to paper on on this particular book?
Derek Sivers
Oh, hold on. Before we get into that, you said something earlier about that, with a psychology routine, there’s no clear way to measure yourself. But I think there is. I think it’s how often you find yourself changing your mind for the better that whether that’s through reading a book and learning or hearing a new way to think of something in your life, or just through your own questioning and processing. You know, doubting the importance of a birthday party. And then if you come to some new epiphany about something and you go like, “Oh, oh, that’s a new way to see it, I hadn’t considered that. Oh, that really helps. Oh, that’s really interesting.” Whether that helps you just have peace of mind about something in the past or something that’s out of your control, or if it gives you a new strategy that helps you be more effective in whatever it is you’re pursuing. Those mind shifts, I think are measurable in a way. I mean, I’m not going to keep a little tick box on the wall like a height growth chart, but I feel it in a real way when I have those little epiphanies that bring me peace or strategy.
Tyson
It’s a good point. I think what I was meaning was like, it’s easy sometimes with maybe use running, for example, because you might see your time just drop and you go, “Oh, I’m running faster. And it feels easy. There’s improvement.”
Tyson
I think there’s like an objective point of improvement. Not that what you’re saying is not objective. I just mean it’s a lot of the time and to go back to your point of just like never trusting your own thoughts or just taking your own thoughts for granted is maybe a better way of putting it. A lot of the time, I’ll notice when it comes to the psychological, a lot of that is dictated by like, “Oh, I feel good right now, but is there like any solid change taking place?” But I think what I’m trying to say is, I notice it fluctuates quite a lot, there’s so many ebbs and flows. Like the emotional roller coaster that you may go through on a daily basis, like you might feel happy and then you might feel sad, and then you might feel frustrated and you might feel angry. You’re like, “Wait, am I making any progress towards being a more enjoyable person to be around? And are these normal emotions, or am I dwelling in each one too long?” I can kind of get, you know, a little stuck, just overanalyzing certain emotions and find it really hard as a result to go, “Oh yes. But like compared to this time last year, I’m healthy mentally, or I’m more confident mentally.” Or whatever you might like to say.
Derek Sivers
Right.
Derek Sivers
Nice. Yeah. All right. So let’s see. You’ve got a lot of interesting things to talk about. Oh, well, let’s go through them a little faster. I feel like I’ve been going on too long on my answers here. So you asked why I decided to put pen to paper for writing “Useful Not True”. And it’s actually because of the stuff we’re talking about that I would have conversations like these with friends who would often say things like, “I’m trying to figure out what’s true here.” And I’d say, “No, don’t look for what’s true. That’s not the point. Besides, what the hell is true anyway?” If any two people anywhere on earth can disagree about this thing, well, then it’s not true. It’s just a point of view. It’s only those things that nobody can disagree about that even an ant and a martian can look at this thing and both agree, then that’s a concrete reality. We could say that that’s true. A square has four sides. That’s just true. Everything else, like it’s important to be a good parent or you should be loyal to your community. People act like these things are true when it’s not. And any bit of travel around the world will show you that people on the other side of the earth are following an opposite framework of thinking about things, and they’re also thriving. So any way of thinking about things is not necessarily true. And this idea just kept coming up with conversations with friends, and even in blog comments. And I just thought, this is an interesting subject. And so I spent two years thinking about it and writing about it.
Tyson
Yeah. WSo you mean the the idea of people trying to navigate or figure out what actual objective truth is was coming up and well, that was not rubbing you up the wrong way, but it was like, no, there’s a there’s a whole other way to look at this situation. Like there’s a bigger, broader thing taking place here than than what you recognize.
Derek Sivers
Yeah. You said it a few minutes ago. You said that you caught yourself too often trying to think of, “Well, what’s the best way?” And I think that kind of thinking really trips people up and paralyzes them, “I’m trying to find the best way. What’s the best way. You know, how does this famous person do it? How does this rich person do it? What does this book say? What is the best way? I mean, I’m trying to figure out the best.” And you realize that’s a navel gazing, stupid, pointless question. And instead, if you focus on your actions and what each belief or way does to your actual actions. You can be so much more effective. So here’s an example. Let’s say solving world hunger. Now that’s a good goal. Well by what measure because if I set that as my goal, that does not make me jump into action. I did not jump out of my chair and go make things happen. The minute I said I’m going to solve world hunger. But yet, let’s say there’s a different goal. Tys can you pick a goal?
Tyson
Oh, what’s a different goal?
Derek Sivers
Name a small one.
Tyson
World peace is like another classic.
Derek Sivers
Oh, see, that’s pointless. You’re not going to jump out of your chair and make that happen.
Tyson
You want a legitimate goal.
Derek Sivers
Like a tiny. What’d you say? Like improve your running time?
Tyson
Yeah.
Derek Sivers
So say a goal of like what took me 25 minutes? I’m going to do it in 20 minutes by the end of this month. Now that’s a concrete goal that makes you jump out of your chair and take action. So I think objectively, that is a better goal because the whole point of goals is to guide your actions. And so if world peace or world hunger is not making you take good actions, then it’s not a good goal. This is the measure by which we should judge if a goal is a good goal or not. And then you can extrapolate that to beliefs, saying, “If I believe it’s important to be loyal to my community, does that make me take better actions? Or perhaps does letting go of that belief make me take better actions? Maybe, what if I adopt a belief that says the world is my community? And Melbourne, Australia is just as much my community as Helsinki, Finland and oh my God, guys, we’re moving to Finland. Let’s go. There’s no reason that we need to be stuck here in Melbourne anymore. It’s a big world out there. Let’s give our kids a bigger variety of living, and we’re going to raise them in Sri Lanka for a year and then go to Poland for a year. My kids are going to have a bigger breadth of experience. If I let go of this belief that I need to be loyal to my community, or it’s important to be physically close to their grandparents.” Or whatever beliefs might be holding you back, you could just look at them and ask yourself, “Is this belief creating the actions that I want?” And if it’s not, I can just adopt a different belief. It’s all about how it’s making you act not whether it’s true or not or if it’s right.
Tyson
Yeah. And also, it kind of forces you to actually make a decision because, I mean, like virtue signaling in any field is the easiest thing in the world to do. Like, you can put a certain countries flag or a certain color flag or whatever it is over your profile picture. And I mean, this has been such a frustration of mine over the last couple of years when I caught it in myself and still keep catching it in myself. But like you’ll you’ll see something you’re doing outwardly and you’re like, “Alright, outside of this, what are you doing to actually help this cause?” And the answer is usually for me, nothing. It’s just like, so people know, “Hey, look at look how good Tys is doing.” And I mean, I know when we’re being honest, so many people fall into that same trap. But yeah, that idea of like, okay, well, I believe in this issue. Like, what does that look like practically? Maybe give money towards it, maybe go and volunteer time towards it. It sounds like you kind of see this similar to me. Like a lot of people will throw out the, “Hey, look, we’re doing the best thing.” But really doing nothing to change whatever it is that we claim to care about.
Derek Sivers
Yeah. Yeah. I’ve been frustrated by that, too. It’s a good thing to catch yourself and ask, “Would I still do this if nobody knew?” Like, if I were to do this anonymously and never tell anybody, not even my best friends, there would be no posts of it publicly. Now, is it still worth doing? And for most people, you notice an embarrassing like, “Oh no, I guess I just thought that was a good idea because it makes me look good. Never mind.”
Tyson
It’s always more fun catching it in someone else other than yourself. Like in Australia through Covid, we kept hearing about the importance of everything. And then each night on the news, there was another politician that yesterday was saying it who wasn’t applying their own standards to their own behaviour. And you’re like, “Ah, interesting. Is this really as important as what you’re saying it is?”
Derek Sivers
Yeah.
Tyson
Yeah. It’s very funny. Is that part of the reason? I don’t know why or how it is that you ended up in New Zealand, but I mean, what you just spoke about with the the idea of delving out into a new culture and a new way to live. I mean, New Zealand’s a long way from California.
Derek Sivers
I try to pick neutral examples, but I reveal my bias through my off-the top of my head. You know, it’s like the ink blot. You know, “Hey, what is this ink blot look like? It looks like I’m moving to Finland.” It’s like Derek, I think, you revealed what’s on your mind. So yeah, in my value system, I think it’s healthy to make the whole world your home and move to a place that’s very different from where you grew up, and continue to expand your understanding of the world through different points of view. That’s just one of my favorite values, but that actually doesn’t have much to do with why I’m in New Zealand.
Derek Sivers
I was just location neutral when my kid was born. I was living in Singapore, thought I was going to stay there longer, and that’s when my kid was born in Singapore. And then I just looked objectively and said, “Wait, hold on, what do I value in childhood?” And to me, childhood is about your feet in the mud and your hands in a river, and the long grass blowing in the wind and climbing trees. And to me, so much of childhood is about connecting with the real physical world, not just screens. And I thought, “Well, ideally my kid would grow up in a nature paradise.” It was like, well, what? What’s the best nature paradise? It’s like, well, New Zealand, I mean, everybody knows that. So I was in Singapore in a little apartment on the 51st floor. And I thought, “Well, let’s see what it takes to move to New Zealand.” And I did the nine months of paperwork and became a legal resident for the sole purpose of raising my kid in nature.
Tyson
Wild. Wild. Which part of New Zealand are you in?
Derek Sivers
I’m in Wellington.
Tyson
I just want to say, I know you’ve told me to steer clear of the personal questions, and I keep going back to them.
Derek Sivers
No, I didn’t say that. I never said that.
Tyson
Not the personal question. Sorry. I made it sound like you’re a really harsh person. I didn’t mean that at all. Just to clarify that, I don’t think you’re an asshole. What I mean is, you were worried that you might be boring the audience with personal anecdotes of your own life, but I find these personal anecdotes so interesting. And with that said, I’m being selfish, and I’m nervous that you don’t want to talk about it.
Derek Sivers
Oh, no, dude, I’m sorry, I’m happy to talk about anything. I’m trusting your guidance to keep this interesting to the listener. I never want to be one of those people that drones on and on about my own example, not realizing that everybody’s gone to sleep because dude, honestly, I’m going to say this because I know they’re not going to listen to this podcast. Just two nights ago, somebody had me over to their house for dinner, and it was like somebody had never met before. And they did that. They talked for like four solid hours. And at the end of the night with, you know, just all my eyelid muscles were straining to stay open. I left and I was driving home going, “God, they didn’t ask me a single question. It was four hours of just telling me about themselves without a single question.” It’s like, damn, can I, should I have brought that up at some point or should I bring this up to them now, or do I just let it go and avoid them? I don’t know. Anyway, I don’t want to be that guest that---
Tyson
You’re definitely not. And I just feel so bad telling you that they do listen to this podcast.
Derek Sivers
Anyway, God, would that be funny.
Tyson
Yeah. Get your act together.
Derek Sivers
Well, yeah. There it is. Publicly shamed. See if it helps. So okay, no, I’m an open book. I’m happy for you to ask me anything. You asked about New Zealand? Yeah, I live in Wellington. That wasn’t my first choice. I would rather be living in what we call the wop wops here. What do you call it in Australia? The middle of nowhere.
Tyson
The wop wops. I don’t know what a wop wop is.
Derek Sivers
I don’t either, but that’s what the Kiwis call it. Growing up around Chicago in the U.S., we called it the boondocks or the sticks, or sometimes they called it Bufu Egypt. It just means the middle of nowhere.
Tyson
Yeah. Interesting. Yeah, maybe, like, I think Australia might have stolen out in the sticks, like out in the wilderness, sort of talking about in the middle of nowhere or like where countries it looks a little less tainte than what a city might look like from a nature perspective.
Derek Sivers
Oh, no, It’s usually used as like a almost derogatory, like, “Yeah, that dude lives in the middle of nowhere. He’s out in the wop wops.” It means just like, yeah, it’s not even on the map.
Tyson
Middle of nowhere is exactly what we say over here. Okay, just trying to catch up with what you meant. Yeah.
Derek Sivers
So, yeah, I would have preferred to be living in the middle of nowhere, but my ex needed a job, and so she got a job in the New Zealand government, which is in Wellington. So here we are.
Tyson
Yeah, man. Yeah, I went to Wellington in 2018. It was my first taste. I went for a run down there around. They have like a really long bike path that leads you from what town all around the-- is it a bay? You run around a bay.
Derek Sivers
Oh, it’s great, isn’t it?
Tyson
Near an airport or something?
Derek Sivers
Yeah, I live right near the airport.
Tyson
I was probably there for 3 or 4 days, but there’s a little crossover in culture I felt between I mean, you’re not that far away, but between New Zealand and Melbourne here. Like I got there--
Derek Sivers
Between Wellington and Melbourne. Yeah. Wellington’s like a 10th of the size of Melbourne. But a similar heart.
Tyson
For sure. Yeah like a lot of great coffee which I feel can be deceptive because I’ll get to a place and have a great coffee. I go, “Ah it’s so much like Melbourne here.”
Derek Sivers
Yeah.
Tyson
So that was my little taste. How long have you been in New Zealand for now?
Derek Sivers
12 years.
Tyson
Yeah. Yeah.
Derek Sivers
It’s home. That said, I am so ready to get out to.
Tyson
Where would you go?
Derek Sivers
India. I want to go to Bangalore. I went to Bangalore last year. And there’s some places you just click with. Especially the people. Nobody loves the infrastructure of Bangalore. Nobody thinks Bangalore is beautiful but the people. Oh my God, I just made so many friends. It just felt like my kind of people. And still my best friend lives in Bangalore and we talk on the phone every single day, and it’s just the place that has the most people that I want to talk with and get to know better. So Bangalore is my place.
Tyson
On the spectrum. In the middle of nowhere is one side of the spectrum and Bangalore is up the other side of the spectrum. That’s an interesting direction. In saying that I phrased that because Bangalore, like from a population perspective is what I’m getting at.
Derek Sivers
Oh, okay. So I like different places for different purposes. See, this is back to saying that there’s no right answer. There’s no, “Where’s the right place to live?” Well, for what purpose? When I’m in New Zealand, on this island in the middle of the Pacific Ocean, I do not want to be in a city next to the KFC and the Toyota car dealer. I came all this way to be in the middle of nowhere. That’s why I’m here. And if I go to India, well, then I don’t want to go to the mountaintop in the middle of nowhere, because I could do that here in New Zealand. If I’m in India, I want to be in the middle of everything. Same thing. It’s like if you’re going to go to, I don’t know, go to Europe, you go do something that’s very European. And if you go to Australia, you go to do something that’s very Australian. It’s like, yeah, different places for different purposes. So it’s not looking for the right answer. It’s looking to, you have a goal for the purpose of creating an action in yourself, and you go to a place for the purpose of being in a different environment that that place gives you, which brings up different thoughts and different actions.
Tyson
Yeah. And what is it about Bangalore that you’re attracted to in terms of the people, like you said, that the people that you’d like to learn most about. Is that the main drawing factor to Bangalore?
Derek Sivers
Yeah, I can relate to them. 15 years ago, I tried to move to San Francisco. In theory, San Francisco is so my kind of place. Smart, ambitious, creative, interesting people. It’s cool to be smart. It’s cool to make things, start things. A lot of just bold creativity there. But when I went there, everybody was too much like me. I felt like I was around a bunch of Dereks. I didn’t like it. It was a bunch of Americans, a bunch of white guys like me that--- I know not everybody, but it felt like too much. I was in, you know, like magnets. You know, if it’s the positively charged ones, it pushes against the other positively charged ones. I like opposites, I like being in places where I’m not like everybody else. And then I went to Bangalore with very low expectations. But as soon as I got there, I just found that it was the same things that I had been pursuing in San Francisco. A bunch of people that are super smart, creative, bold, ambitious, interesting. It’s cool to be smart. It’s just got this culture where it rewards looking at things differently, trying something new. But yet it’s not just a bunch of Dereks. It’s a bunch of people that are not like me. Yet we share this same love of thinking and making and looking at things from a different point of view. And I just went, “Oh, I love this. I love these people.” So it’s also just maybe a stage in my life where I moved here to New Zealand to be anti-social, to give my kid all my attention. And now that he’s getting older, he’s 12 now, but soon he won’t really want me around anymore. I think Bangalore is calling me next.
Tyson
That’s so exciting. You take your 12 year old with you or is that what you’re saying? Like when he’s old enough to fend for himself, you would think about heading over there.
Derek Sivers
Either one. I think he might love it, too. He hasn’t been yet. We both are citizens of India. His mother was born in India, so it’s kind of cool that through her, because she was born there, all three of us have the passport. So we can live in India for the rest of our lives that don’t have to apply for a visa. So that’s kind of cool. It’s a place that I’m legally allowed to live.
Tyson
That’s very cool. It’s funny, how old are you? 54. Based on the math I’ve done. It’s interesting when you watch people. I’m 37, but even mates around me at the moment, and I noticed this from a young age. You’ll often see people grow older and just grow more staunch with whatever it is that they believe, whether wrongly or rightly, they will get smaller and smaller and more and more boring and like more and more depressing from my perspective. It sounds like what you’re venturing down is the direction that I’m really interested in going, which is, hey, as you get older, make your world way bigger, make your world way broader. But that definitely I’m sure part of that is like personality, but it sounds like part of that is pursuit. Like, is that something that you’ve consciously focused on, or is that something that you think is a little more innate? Like, were you like that?
Derek Sivers
No, no, no. Let’s talk about this. This is a very deliberate pursuit, to counteract our nature and tendencies. So I didn’t start lifting weights until I was 42, because up until then, I thought the only reason people lift weights is for the vanity, for the wannabe Schwarzeneggers. And I have no interest in having big muscles for vanity. And it wasn’t until the age of 42 when I was learning that lifting weights is really good for the aging skeleton, that if you don’t lift weights - I didn’t realize this - that your bones actually can be weak or strong. I thought that was just a figure of speech, but no, it’s literal. And so once it was explained to me that no, it’s very important for the aging person to lift heavy weights and ease your way into it so that you stay strong. It’s counteracting nature. So that’s why I started lifting weights at 42. A better, more recent popular example is, Peter Attia wrote this book called “Outlive”. Where he says, “If you want to be able to walk up stairs at the age of 80, you need to be able to run upstairs at the age of 50. So start training like an athlete now at age 30, 40, 50, so that you can just be in at least decent health at the age of 70 and 80.”
Derek Sivers
It’s this idea of very deliberately going against your nature. So same thing socially. There’s a book called “Brain Rules for Aging” by John Medina oh, so he’s a neuroscientist that studies healthy brain development. And he wrote a great book about babies, “Brain Rules for Baby”, a great book in general called “Brain Rules” and then “Brain Rules for Ageing Well”. And that book really impacted me because I’m reading this, i read it at the age of 40 something saying, “Okay, this is what I need to start doing now to stave off dementia in 40 years.” I need to start doing these things now so I’ll make massive life decisions like moving to Bangalore because of this book’s advice that we tend to, like you just said, as we age, get more narrow, more staid in our ways, and what he says is the best way to keep a healthy brain is to learn new skills in your old age, learn a new language, a new spoken language, the more the better. Actually, if you can learn a second language and even a third language, it really works out your brain.
Derek Sivers
Physical motion, especially dancing. He said, “Go take dance classes in a kind of dance that you’ve never done before, if you’ve danced before or just start dancing if you’ve never done it before. Surprise yourself, meet with people, ideally from very different cultures and different generations.” So they said, out of all the elderly minds we’ve studied, the healthiest ones are the ones that have the most conversations with young people. Like ideally teenagers. So for the elderly to have conversations with teenagers is very good for their brain because it helps them see how the world has changed so much. So all of these things to me when I read this, let’s say when I read that it’s good for your skeleton to start lifting weights, I think, “Okay, well then that’s what I’m going to do. Follow the book, do what it says, do what the experts advise.” I will change my life to start doing this. Same with the brain. It’s healthy for your brain to keep surprising yourself. Therefore, I’m going to move somewhere far away. And in fact, just this year I’ve just started learning Chinese. So learning Chinese and planning to move to India. Those are my two most recent changes.
Tyson
You’ve already answered my follow up question. I was so curious to know what it was you were working on at the moment.
Derek Sivers
Oh, yeah.
Tyson
That’s so good. That’s when you’ve got to be careful of in the early stages of of developing it. Like you can’t start speaking Mandarin, like at a real basic level, because in Melbourne you just get called a racist until you’re an actual pro, that’s one accent you’re not allowed to practise over here. It’s very funny to watch.
Derek Sivers
You don’t practice the accent. You practice words. Anyway, I know what you mean.
Tyson
We often laugh because it’s okay to speak French. It’s okay to speak Italian, but you’ve got to be real careful with ones like that. So it’s very fun, man. That’s awesome. I liked what you said about the the meeting people from, I think it was ages. Not cultures, but elderly people speaking--
Derek Sivers
Generations.
Tyson
Yes, to to the younger generations. But what I noticed on your website, I was having a flick through the other day was just the massive groups of people that you meet up with from around the world when you travel to wherever it is that you are, like, you’ll catch up with people that you’ve connected with. Is that a part of that? Or is that just like a, “Hey, I’d love to meet you. I’d love to see the face behind the email.” Like, why is it that you’re so deliberate about catching up with people who have connected with you online?
Derek Sivers
I think it’s to counteract my current situation of being socially isolated in New Zealand. So in a typical year here in New Zealand, and I’m talking about only when I’m in New Zealand, I spend time with other people besides my kid for maybe I’d say five hours per year. So make sure you like let that sink in for a second. I really don’t see hardly any humans besides my kid when I’m in New Zealand. It’s only when I travel to a new place that then I deliberately, you know, counterbalance. I do the opposite of my New Zealand life. And I make a point of like, “Alright, I’ve never been to Buenos Aires before. I’m going to Buenos Aires and I’m going to meet 50 people in six days.” Ideally, I would stay for six months, but my kids in school, he misses me. I miss him. So I’m only here for six days. I’ve got to cram it in. So in six days I’ll sit down and I’ll meet with like 50 people in, well, let’s say 30 people for like 1 or 2 hours each in five days just to kind of binge and almost like as if you were going to go off to a music festival, you know, you go off to, I don’t know what music festivals are around anymore.
Tyson
You’re asking the wrong person.
Derek Sivers
I was about to say Lollapalooza. Then I was like, is that a thing anymore? There’s the the one outside of Palm Springs. What’s that called? Anyway, you know, when somebody goes to a music festival, the whole idea is like, “Ah, we’re here for three days. I’m going to see 50 bands in three days. Oh my God.” So it’s like that with conversation for me.
Tyson
That’s really cool. Is there a particular-- I know you said Bangalore was one before, but is there a particular group of people outside of there that you’ve been really interested in? Like, is there anything that stands out to you as like a, “Oh man, like, this is a pretty amazing place.” Based on those people that you’ve crammed into the couple of days that you’ve spent time with.
Derek Sivers
I mean, Bangalore, Chennai. I haven’t done this anywhere else in India yet except Bangalore and Chennai. I haven’t done it in Dubai yet. I’ve only met with three people in Dubai, but I really loved them all, really loved them all. So I’d really like to go back to Dubai and do a real binge of getting to know a lot of people there. I’m really curious about Saudi Arabia because two different people in Dubai told me that the friendliest people you’ll meet in the Arab community are in Saudi Arabia. I went, “Oh, okay.” So even though I don’t know that many people in Saudi Arabia now, I’d like to. Nairobi, Kenya. Again I haven’t been yet, but the people from Nairobi that I’ve met in other parts of the world always seem to be really sweet and interesting people, that I just really liked them. So I’m like, I want to go to Nairobi. It sounds like my kind of people there, so.
Tyson
That would be cool.
Derek Sivers
These are the top of my list.
Tyson
But as I’ve mentioned a couple of times, like running’s my background and naturally if you’re Kenyan or Ethiopian, I’m interested based on just the success of your runners. And yeah, Nairobi is a place that I’d be fascinated to visit as well. I had a friend that went there last year, a little outside of Nairobi, but he did a running camp there and absolutely raved about it. So, like to add fuel to the fire of wanting to visit it. It sounds like a pretty incredible place.
Derek Sivers
So at the beginning you were asking about how it seems like I’ve done many things. And then we got off on a tangent of how I really like to do just one thing at a time. But there’s an important point in there when you’re thinking about all the balls you’ve got juggling at once, and you want to do them all. I think it’s really, really, really important to remember that you can use time. That the future is something you can use. Not everything has to happen right now. My rule of thumb that I remind myself is don’t be a donkey. Because there’s this story. It’s called Buridan’s ass if you look it up. I think it was an old French philosopher that told a story about a donkey that is exactly halfway in between a pile of food and a bucket of water, and he’s both hungry and thirsty. And he just can’t decide. So eventually he falls over and dies. What if the donkey would remember that you can use the future? Then he would have gone to have a drink first, and then eaten the food, and then both would get done. So I think it’s the same thing with us. We’re smarter than a donkey. We can use the future. You can remember that in the big picture of Tyson’s life, there can be seven different things you did, but it can be in the total picture. Somebody looking back in 20 years to look at all the things you did can look impressive, even if in the moment you’re only doing one thing. So that’s the way I think about it now. For somebody hearing about me for the first time now at age 54 and looking back at all the things I’ve done. It might look impressive, but it wasn’t that impressive in the moment. It was just me obsessing about one thing for ten years, and then obsessing about a different thing for ten years, and then obsessing on this book for three years, and then this book for two years, and this book for two years. And each one was just a temporary single focus on one thing. And then you launch it and you finish it and you do something else. And then when they look at your whole life, they go, “Wow, this dude’s done a lot.” So.
Tyson
And has the writing been one of those crossover features of, like, each part of your life? So, for example, I know, you’ve written a number of books, but you said at the outset, like you were-- I don’t even know what the title was, but you created a business in the music industry, and I’m trying to get my head around exactly what it works. I’m so distant from that world that I don’t actually fully understand what it was that you did, but it sounded unbelievable. But was that separate to the writing, or was that while you were writing? Or what does that journey look like?
Derek Sivers
I didn’t start thinking of myself as a writer until just maybe 5 or 6 years ago. So I was just a musician from the age of 14 to 29. I did nothing but music. I didn’t go to a regular university. I went to a music college. I whatever you call it. Eat, breathe and sleep nothing but music. From the age of 14 to 29, it’s all I did. I didn’t even read books. I didn’t do anything else but music. And in that time, I played guitar for a Japanese pop star. I ran a recording studio in New York City. I did a thousand gigs, literally a thousand plus with my band or as a solo performer, recorded an album, played on other people’s albums, produced people’s albums, and then after all that, at the age of 29, I started selling my music on my website, and then my musician friends in New York asked if I could sell theirs too, and then, oops, I accidentally started a business. So I stopped making my own music and I did nothing but that for ten years it was called CD Baby. So it was just basically a record store online. And so I did that for ten years. It was a big success. I sold that, and then honestly, I felt lost for about a year, not sure what I wanted to do next. And then I was really into watching Ted talks at the time, I was just trying to expand my mind, you know, and bring in new inputs.
Derek Sivers
And I thought, “Ooh, I want to be a Ted speaker. That’s my next goal.” So that was a very actionable goal. I was like, “I can do this. If I focus and I figure out what it takes and what they’re looking for, I can be a Ted speaker.” So for the next two years, I was a Ted speaker. I spoke at 3 or 4 Ted conferences and pretty soon everybody just knew me as the Ted speaker. Nobody knew that I was the record store guy before that, or a musician before that. And it was about that time that Seth Godin asked me to write a book, even though I had never planned on writing a book. He asked me to write a book, so I said, yes. I wrote this book called “Anything You Want” that told my story of how I started, grew, and sold my company, and the book did really well. So then people started to think of me more as a writer, and I realized that all of my heroes were writers, that I didn’t look up to, entrepreneurs. I didn’t even look up to musicians as much anymore. Really, the people that I looked up to the most now were all authors. And I went, well, in a way, who you look up to shows you what direction you’re facing. So I said, “Yeah, this is really the direction I’m going, isn’t it? If this is who I admire, that means this is where I’m going.” So I decided to be an author.
Derek Sivers
Or realized I am an author or something like that. So yeah, the last six years or so, I’ve just been thinking of myself as an author and that may change again.
Tyson
How did it get to a point for Seth Godin to tell you to write a book? That’s a pretty cool recommendation. In fact, if Seth Godin told me to do anything, I’d probably consider it.
Derek Sivers
Same here. Same, yeah. He was a fan of my music company called CD Baby. And in fact, I am so glad that one day I just happened to be scanning the day’s orders. We would get like 500 orders a day from people just buying music. And so one day, I just happened to be looking at the list of the day’s orders, which I didn’t usually do, but with wonderful coincidence, I was looking at the day’s orders, and I see Seth Godin bought some CDs. And I was like, “No way. That can’t be the Seth Godin.” And that it was going to New York. And his email address was sethgodin@yahoo.com. I was like, “Oh my God, it’s the Seth Godin.” Bought some CDs from me. And so I sent an email saying, “Hey, my name is Derek, I’m the founder of CD Baby. And oh my gosh, I love your books so much.” And he just sent me a short little email reply. I was like, “Wow. Seth Godin replied to me.” And then a year later, his next book came out called Purple Cow, and he used me as an example in the book. I was like, “Whoa! Wow.” So we met up a few times in person when I lived in New York after that.
Derek Sivers
And we met up at the Ted conference once. And yeah, I guess he was just aware of me. And so he started a publishing company in 2011 and called me and asked me to be one of his first authors. So, yeah, what could you say to that? But yes.
Tyson
It’s amazing, man. He’s also emailed me.
Derek Sivers
Cool.
Tyson
I sent him an email and asked him to come on my podcast and he said, “I can’t, but thanks.”
Derek Sivers
Alright.
Tyson
I loved it. I’ve heard him speak about how how many emails he gets and, like, never email him. And he goes, but people still email him. And I’m like, well, I feel like he’s saying, don’t email him, but I can if I want to. And I’m so confused. So I just I rolled the dice and I got the email back and I was like, “Oh my gosh, Seth Godin.” And very different response to what you got, but rightly so, because he’s a popular man. He’s an incredible guy just tying random stories and random events together for one incredible point. Like he’s a blogger that I’ll often stop by and have a read through. And it’s amazing how so much of what he speaks about doesn’t just impact business or comedy or whatever, but I’m like, “Oh, how is this point that he’s made stood out in this area of my life?” He just seems to have his finger on the pulse. And there’s certain people like him that it’s like they tap into what’s going on underneath the issue.
Derek Sivers
Yes.
Tyson
A little more. Like a lot of people are quite reactive. And he’s like, “No, no, here’s what’s happening. Like try this.” And you’re like, ah, I feel better just for reading that or listening to that or, or whatever it might be.
Derek Sivers
You know, he told me something once that makes a lot of sense is that he sees himself mostly as a change maker. What he wants is to make change. He loved being a camp counselor, so much so he would have been happy to just be a camp counselor for the rest of his life. But his wife got a job in New York City, so they had to leave you know, it was a seven hour drive from the camp to New York City. So he moved to New York City and has made the best of it and got more into business. But ultimately, he just sees himself as a change maker. And when you realize that as the the theme or the thread between the different things he’s done, it makes more sense.
Tyson
Yeah, that’s a good point. You mentioned a moment ago that this may or may not be something that you do for the rest of your life. The writing element, like if you were peeking over the fence of of what the future might look like outside of writing. Is there anything on the horizon that sort of caught your attention that you’re like, oh, I could I could venture down there?
Derek Sivers
No. I mean, I have a folder on my computer called “Potential Futures” where I have at least 80 or 90 different ideas I’ve written in there about things I could do with my future. And I used to each time think it was a plan. I made that mistake. Like I’d get an idea and I’d say, “Oh my God, yes, this is what I’m going to do.” And I’d get really into it, get really detailed, I’d start planning it, and then maybe like a month into it, I’d be like, “Uh, or not.” Or maybe something else would get my attention, and then I’d feel so bad that I had maybe, like told all my friends, “I’m doing this thing.” I told myself, “I’m doing this thing.” And then a month later, I wasn’t doing the thing. And instead of feeling bad. See, this is an example of just, you know, some mental reframing. I thought, “Wait, those weren’t plans. Those were daydreams. And that’s all right. Daydreaming is fun.” I mean, what else would I do? Watch TV, you know. Better to watch my own thoughts instead of watching a screen. So I daydream a lot where I do get excited about things I might do in the future.
Derek Sivers
And instead of calling it a plan now, I just relabeled it as a potential future, which is like an active or a concrete daydream. So then I just let myself indulge. You know, I’ll plan it out in great detail. If I think that I might want to live in Shanghai, I’ll pick the exact neighborhood. I’ll start looking at real estate listings and what not, and how to open a bank account in Shanghai and how to get a resident visa. Okay, well, great way to do it is to incorporate a Chinese company. Well, I’ll actually talk with people that can incorporate a company in China for me so that I can give myself a resident visa so that I can live there in this neighborhood. And I’ll go through all of that fully acknowledging that I’m just enjoying daydreaming. And if I never move to China, that’s fine. It’s just in the potential futures folder. And I’ve got others, you know, that’s just one of 80 at least that’s in there.
Tyson
For sure. I mean, I had this exact experience the other night. I was watching a guy called Johnny Harris on YouTube. I only just came across his YouTube channel the other day, but I guess you’d call him, he’s a, like, an independent journalist, maybe. And he puts together these unbelievable, like mini documentaries. And I was watching one, and it was such a boring topic that was so popular about why McDonald’s ice cream machines are always broken. I didn’t know this was a reputation they had, but it had like 12 million people had watched it on YouTube and I was like, “Why have so many people tuned in to such a dumb topic?” And so naturally, I clicked on it and it was incredibly interesting. Like, I couldn’t believe how it was like a 30 minute little documentary, the story was great, the editing was incredible. Just everything they did. And I go, “Oh, man, like, this is this is exactly what I want to do.” And my wife is good at times for just keeping me accountable because I’m like you. I’ll go, “Alright, this is the new me.” And I’ll step into something. And then a month later, I’m like, “Ah, this is not as exciting or whatever it might be.” So I think I have the problem of-- it’s not like I’m ever afraid to make the move. I’ve just got too much confidence in every move I’m about to make. Not even confidence. Maybe excitement is the right a better word.
Derek Sivers
Yeah. Same.
Tyson
The excitement leads the way a little bit. And then as a result, if I’m not careful, just the distance that I should have gone down that pursuit is a little short lived. And as a result, you probably don’t get the best results with that approach.
Derek Sivers
Well, okay. So if you don’t mind me nerding out on this.
Tyson
Please.
Derek Sivers
If you reframe that as a potential future And if you write it down, it’s really cool that you can come back to it even years later. Like maybe you will do that thing, but just not yet. Maybe in two years from now it will be time. Maybe 15 years from now, it’ll be time. Sometimes I forget that I’ve had the same dream for a long time. So years ago, when I told you that, I did a thousand shows as a musician, I played it a lot of universities where I’d go off to a university, do a gig, and then like two years later, I’d be back at the same university again. And so at one point I decided to move to Woodstock, New York, which is about 90 minutes north of New York City. It’s like this kind of sweet, rural, hippie community, very artistic, known for the classic 1967 Woodstock Music Festival. And I just really liked it up there. And so at one point, I believe I was 27 years old, I decided to move to Woodstock. I went up intending to rent a house, and I found a house for sale at a really low price. I mean, we’re talking like $120,000 for a really great house. I was like, “Whoa, okay, I’m buying a house in Woodstock.” So I put the deposit down, started to move to Woodstock, and then I had a gig at a university where I had played two years before, and I saw this tall redhead named Renee that I had talked with two years before. And she was like, “Derek, how are you?” I was like, “Renee, what’s up?”
Derek Sivers
And she said, “What are you doing?” I said, “Well, I’m moving to Woodstock.” And she screamed with excitement. She goes, “Oh my God, that’s amazing.” I said, “Why is that so amazing? Why are you so excited?” She goes, “Derek, you did it.” I said, “Did what?” She goes, “Two years ago you told me you wanted to move to Woodstock.” I said, “I did.” I thought this was a new idea. I didn’t remember that I’d been wanting to do this for a long time. So possible futures, to me they mean more when you see that it’s something that has continually excited you over many years. Because I keep all of my old potential futures, sometimes I’ll get a new one and I’m like, “Ooh, oh my God.” I know what I’m going to do. I’ll just pick a dummy example. As I say, “I’m going to start a publishing company, or I’m going to find great authors out there that I love their writing, but they’re not famous in any way. And I’m going to help bring them out to the public to help spotlight great writers.” I’m like, ooh, and I’ll start to write this down, and then I’ll go to save it in my potential futures folder. And there it is from like nine years ago, “Start a publishing company.” I’m like, “Whoa.” And I’ll go read what I wrote nine years ago, going, “Oh my God, it’s the same idea. I keep having this same idea. Maybe there’s something here.” Maybe that’s a good guideline that a good way to predict your future persistence of an idea is how well it has persisted in your past already.
Tyson
Yeah, man. Really well said. It’s so good Derek, I don’t know if you can hear my whole family has just arrived back home, and my four year old has absolutely no interest in the fact that I’m recording a podcast with you. And so the volume that he’s operating at is higher than it usually should be. And with that said man, I might hit pause and love you and leave you. But man, I’m so grateful for the fact that you came on the show. I sent you the email as a Hail Mary with my fingers crossed that you might be interested when you said you were, yeah, I had a little fist pump. I love your work, man. I love the way you operate.
Derek Sivers
It’s really the same. I hadn’t heard of you before, but after I got your first link and I looked at some of the interviews you’ve done, and I really admire what you’re doing. So thanks for having me on.