Back To The Present
host: Mitchell Bastock
Useful Not True, writing and editing process, succinctness
listen: (download)
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Transcript:
Mitchell
Derek Sivers, welcome to the show. How’s life?
Derek Sivers
Yeah. How is life? For who, you? For me? That is a fun question to start off with, right? Well, it depends on whose life. For me, life’s all right. My new book just came out called “Useful Not True”. And I’m doing a lot of the work around running my own little store, selling it because I really like decentralization. I’m wary of monopolies like Amazon and Spotify and whatnot. And so I think it’s really healthy to demonopolize things. So I made my own little store sivers.com a few years ago when I realized I was going to keep selling books. So this is my fifth book now. But it does mean, though, that when a new book comes out, it’s not just promotion. It’s actually like a lot of shipping and customer service and stuff like that. That’s honestly kind of exciting. So you ask a real question, there’s your real answer.
Mitchell
Yeah. Nice man. And obviously I have read that book that you sent me. I’ve read a few of your other books. We’ll get into them as we sort of said before we started to record. I mean, a great thing about your books, they’re short in the sense that they’re sort of succinct, they’re provocative. They get you thinking, they’re quite meaningful. You know, you can read a page and then you can almost read a page or a passage a second time. And for me, anyway, this is obviously my personal perspective and so for that reason, that’s why I really enjoy them. But...
Derek Sivers
Thanks.
Mitchell
No worries. Before we get into that though, just for the listeners. A little bit of background on yourself. I know a little bit about you. Most people probably do, but a little bit of background on yourself. As much detail as you want right.
Mitchell
What you’ve done to get to here and what you’re doing with yourself nowadays. You know.
Derek Sivers
Sure.
Derek Sivers
That’s a fun order, isn’t it? It’s like first, how’s life, two who the hell are you? Usually it’s the reverse order. All right. Now that you know how my life is, let me tell you who I am. Derek Sivers, I don’t know. I was a musician for 15 years. Like, just hardcore, solo focused. That’s all I was doing in life was becoming a successful musician for many years. And I did it. I did all right. I got pretty successful in music, and so I started selling my CD on my band’s website. And this was in 1997 when Amazon was just a bookstore and there was no PayPal. And so if you were a musician that wanted to sell your music independently online, the only way to do it was some guy named Derek, that’s me, that could do it for you. So my little store called CD Baby quickly became the largest seller of independent music online, and I did it for ten years. That was from 1998 to 2008, and it went really well and sold music for millions of musicians. After ten years, I felt done with it. So I left the company, and since then I’ve been doing, I don’t know, Ted talks, writing books, speaking, writing, just being a thoughtful dude at large since I don’t have to focus on money so much anymore. So, that brings us to present. And now I’m living in New Zealand. Yeah. Born in California, lived around the world. Was living in Singapore when I had a baby. Thought that New Zealand would be a good place to raise that baby. And here I am 12 years later.
Mitchell
Right. From what I know about you, that was the most brief introduction we could have imagined. You condense that quite nicely.
Derek Sivers
The most brief is if you’re a stranger on an airplane or something like that asking me what I do, and I say, “Oh, nothing.” Or, “I’m a computer programmer.” It’s a nice way to end a conversation, but this is a nicer way to start one. How about that?
Mitchell
Yeah. For sure. I imagine all of the work that’s got you to the point where you’re able to do the things that you’re doing now. Obviously, it took a lot of work and a lot of time and effort and all that kind of stuff, and the freedom in that time and energy that you have now allows you to you know, put your effort into these books, which is obviously why I feel when I read them there is that, I receive that effort, you know. Like, it’s quite obvious that you’ve put a lot of time and attention into it, like so, for example, even though I said before, like a lot of them are smaller books, they mean a lot, you know what I mean? You could have written for the sake of the argument, you know, you could have written that in a day, but obviously, because there was a lot of a lot of effort into it. Yeah.
Derek Sivers
The rough drafts of my books are hundreds and hundreds of pages. And I consider it my duty to the reader, I spend at least a year of full time work editing, say, 1300 pages down to 112. And I think that’s actually the bigger part of my job. Well, no. Okay. Look at this 50/50. It’s like half of it is coming up with all the things I want to say. Then the other half of the work that takes at least a year is how to reduce that down to something that I would be happy to say that you really should read this, and that you’d be happy to give it to friends and say, “You should read this.” Because you don’t want to give somebody a 900 page book and say, “You should read this.” What a horrible burden. But, you know, a little cute 100 page book that you can say you should read this. My books are usually just about 90 minutes long, and that’s because of all the work I do to make them as short as I can.
Mitchell
Yeah. For sure. I wasn’t going to ask you this question, but now I’m curious. The two processes that you mentioned there. You know, you said a lot of the time is from 1300 or whatever, pages down to 120. Firstly, you know, what does that process look like for you? Obviously, it’s unique to everybody in getting to that 1300 pages. And then what does the process look like to get it down to 120? How do you know what to keep?
Derek Sivers
You get really self-conscious. Imagine looking at a transcript of this conversation, or think of any conversation you’ve had with anybody, even if it’s a good conversation. You could go through that Raw transcript and say, “Wow, okay, well, 80% of this is just fluff. 80% of it is, how are you? And reiterating things you’ve already said or saying something verbosely that could be said succinctly.” And when you really put on your editor’s glasses, you can chop every unnecessary word, chop every unnecessary sentence. Sometimes when you’re putting together a book, entire chapters that were 50 pages long when I look at it in the big picture. I think actually that whole chapter is not saying anything so different than what’s been said before. So how about I just take 2 or 3 sentences from that chapter and include it over here? Just ditch that whole thing. Yeah, I just do that over and over and over again for hundreds of hours over a year. And what comes out at the end of that, is a little tiny book where every sentence is necessary. And that just makes me feel so much better because we’ve all felt anybody if you’re listening to this show and if you’ve read one of those damn books, that’s like 300 pages, but it really should have been like 30 pages, you know that feeling where the author is just giving too many examples and has already convinced you but keeps droning on. And man, wouldn’t it have been much more considerate if that author made a 30 page book. So I try to be that guy.
Mitchell
Yeah. And I think I could be wrong here in some sense, but it also feels like a bit of a sign of the times, too. You know, like it’s important for the information to have value. And a lot of people, you know, for better or worse, don’t have that much time or just choose not to spend that much time doing those types of things. So it’s good to be able to read something that just gets to the point, hits home every page and means something along the way.
Derek Sivers
Yeah. Thank you. Yeah, that’s my goal.
Mitchell
Yeah. Doing well before we get to the new book “Useful Not True”. Another book of yours, “How to Live” is around about the same length. I mean, it’s a great book too, I don’t know, maybe in your words, let’s just explain “How to Live” Right? Because obviously it’s sort of 27 chapters?
Derek Sivers
27. Yeah.
Mitchell
Yeah, 27 chapters. And each subsequent chapter sort of goes to disprove the previous chapter before that right. And then there’s a conclusion at the end, maybe just what what made you write it that way? And a brief explanation as to those 27 chapters and one conclusion.
Derek Sivers
Sure. By the way, the way you introduced that was funny, the tone of your voice of, it’s like as if I were to bake you a tuna casserole and said, “What do you think? You like it?” “It’s um, well, let’s hear it in your words.” So.
Mitchell
I enjoyed the casserole. It was just that I sort of didn’t know how to explain it in words as good.
Derek Sivers
So “How to Live” is a very unique book that honestly, if I did nothing else with my life but make that one little book, I think that would have been a life well spent. That little book makes me so happy because there is nothing else like it on Earth. It is really like the most unique book you may ever find. I mean, there are other unique books. I mean, there’s nothing else like it out there. So here’s the idea. A few years before I read a book called “Sum” by David Eagleman. Where the subtitle is “40 Tales from the afterlives”. And it’s 40 short little stories about what happens when you die. And every story disagrees with all the other stories, which is a beautiful format. So it’s like one chapter will say, “When you die, you find out that you were an artificial intelligence program that was created by these cavemen to figure out the meaning of life, and now you try to explain it to them.” And the next story says, “When you die, you find out that you chose to be the animal called man in the last lifetime. But every time you come back, you get to choose what animal you’d like to be. So you decide you want to be a horse.” And then the next chapter will say, “When you die, you realize you have to sit in a waiting room until the last person living doesn’t know your name.” And he said, “You feel bad for some of the other people in the waiting room there that have statues made of them, because just by creating a statue, it’s condemning them to sit in the waiting room for hundreds of years until they finally tear down that statue in the last person on Earth doesn’t know who they are.”
Derek Sivers
And I love this format of every chapter disagreeing with every other chapter, because it’s kind of like saying to a musician, “Go write me a happy song called La La Lemons. Okay, now write me a different happy song called La La Lemons. Now make a different song called La La Lemons.” And the creative challenge of having to come up with 40 different answers helps you disassociate with the idea of any one of them being the right answer. You know, there is no one best song called “La La Lemons”. There’s just many different ways to write a song called La La Lemons. So I loved this book called “Sum” by David Eagleman so much that I read it twice, and a few days after I read it, the second time, I was driving down the road and I went, “Oh, I want to write a book called How to Live in that format. Oh my God, where every chapter will say, here’s how to live. This is the answer. This is exactly how you should be living your life exactly like this. You need to live for the future. That’s the right way to live. Everyone reading this, you need to be living for the future. And here’s why and here’s how. And here are the implications of that. And then the very next chapter says, here’s how to live. Live for the present. There is no such thing as the future. That’s just your imagination. There’s no such thing as the past. That’s just your memories. All we have is the present moment. And you need to live entirely for the present. And here’s how and here’s why. And here are the implications. And then the next chapter will say, here’s how to live. Live for other people. That’s all that really matters. We’re here on Earth for others.”
Derek Sivers
You get the idea. So it does this 27 times, which was a wonderful format for me to take the culmination of everything I had ever learned in life. And instead of trying to find some fucking unifying theme to act like there’s some one universal truth that pulls it all together. I let it be divided into these 27 chapters, each one disagreeing with all the others. And that format makes me so happy, because that’s how it is to be in this world where every podcast guest comes on here and tells you, “Mitchell, here’s how to live. Here’s the way to be. Mitchell here’s the answer.” It kind of mocks all of that and points out that there is no one right answer. And then finally, I’m going to leave this up to the reader. But the book ends with a great little punchline that is just two pages long. And yeah, I’ll just have to leave that to the curiosity of the reader. The book is called “How to Live”. You can find it everywhere now.
Mitchell
Yeah, I think I like that. I think it’s a good idea to leave the conclusion to the reader. Otherwise it’s kind of spoiled it. Yeah, it’s got to almost like you’re cooking something for the first time. But you know what it’s actually going to taste like. You sort of ruined it a bit there, but yeah, I mean, I think what I like about that, I mean, I like a lot of it, but it’s kind of what you said, giving the example about the people that come on to the podcast, right. It’s like every single person, you know, regardless of what their beliefs are, their religious beliefs or upbringing or regardless of all that kind of stuff. We’ve all got such different and unique opinions. We all believe our opinions are the right opinions. Yet there’s billions of people and therefore billions of right opinions. And I just find that fact so fascinating. And so it’s wild and it’s crazy because it’s like...
Mitchell
And I think you say this in “Useful Not True” in one way or another. When you have that realization that everybody has different opinions and conducts their lives according to those beliefs and stuff. There’s a solace in knowing that there is no one right way of doing things. It’s just the one right way of that person. One times however many billion people there are on Earth. And I mean, the reason why I love it as well is just because, you know, people like yourself, the people that sort of understand that perspectives are broader and things are a lot easier to deal with in life when you sort of share that belief because you don’t get so hell bent in either following someone in a dogmatic approach, or just solely believing that you know all the right answers. You know, the more you know, the less you know. That’s essentially.
Derek Sivers
Yes.
Mitchell
The term that I’ve come come to agree with almost the most. And it’s just true because it doesn’t matter who I speak to, I learn all these things, what the books I read and all that kind of stuff. But it’s just the more you know, the less you know, the less you realize that it’s just so different for everybody. I just think it’s it’s wild.
Derek Sivers
Yeah. I think being down here in the southern hemisphere gives us a slight advantage. When the rest of the world is complaining about the summer in July and we’re like, “No, it’s cold down here.” And the rest of the world is complaining about, I don’t know, whatever their hemisphere problems or even just time zones. You know, if you’re used to being in a different time zone than most people you know, then you know, my friends call me on a Tuesday morning for them, and it’s a Wednesday night here. And you get used to this idea that if somebody says, “It’s freezing, isn’t it?” Or, “I just woke up.” It’s clear that’s just their perspective. It’s not yours. And it’s a nice reminder that when someone says something like, “Here’s what women want, or here’s how to live.” That, it makes it clear that it’s not the answer. Of course it’s not. It’s just one point of view, even though the person saying it believes it’s the answer and they tell you like you need to accept the fact that this is the answer. It helps you first disregard the dogmatism a bit. Sorry, dogmatism or dogma. Anyway, then what’s wonderful is to start to realize it about yourself, that all of the things that you say like, “Australia is a great place to live.” Or, “This is a great book.” Or, “Miles Davis is better than John Coltrane.” Or whatever thing feels like a fact to you. You have to realize, oh, that’s not a fact. That’s just one point of view. None of it. Even things like, you know, it’s good to have kids. It’s important to be married. You should go make money. Whatever, all these things that feel like truisms are also just one way of looking at it.
Mitchell
Yeah, it’s a nice little segue into “Useful Not True”. The latest book I feel, anyway.
Derek Sivers
Well, the two really go together, so to me, I didn’t mean it this way. I set out to write a book called “Useful Not True” because I just had this idea on in my mind and as I was finishing it, I realized, “Oh, this is really like a prequel for ‘How to Live’.” Because I just put out “How to Live: with no explanation, and people were confused by it. People often stop reading at the second chapter, and they email me to say, “You know, in chapter one you said I should be independent, and in chapter two you say I should not be independent. Do you realize that these are conflicting?” And I say, “Yeah. Did you look at the subtitle of the book? That’s the whole point. Keep reading chapter three, it gets worse.” So I just put out the book with no explanation. So now “Useful Not True” is kind of like a prequel that makes “How to Live” make more sense, because it’s reminding you that nothing people say, nothing of the mind is necessarily true. There are some true things. You know, I’m snapping my fingers right now. That’s just a fact. Does it mean something that I’m snapping my fingers? Does it mean that I want you to hurry up. Or that I’m impatient, or that I’m rude, or that I’ve got a song in my head right now.
Derek Sivers
No, all of those things are just projected meanings onto it. The only raw facts are, you know, my finger is making a slapping sound against the palm of my hand. That’s a fact. Everything else is an interpretation. And so you can carry that out in other ways of life where you can say, what does it mean that your dad used to hit you a lot when you were a kid? What does it mean that your parents divorced when you were six? What does it mean that you used to be addicted to alcohol and now you’re not? Nothing. None of those things mean anything. They have no inherent meaning. It’s just a thing that happened. It’s a raw event, like the sound of a finger against the palm that has no inherent meaning. Therefore, any meaning you want to put into that is your own. If somebody else tells you you’re a bad person because you used to be addicted to alcohol, that’s not true at all. You can strip away that meaning and you can give it any meaning you want, since none of them are true anyway. You just choose them because they’re useful to you. Hence the title.
Mitchell
Yeah, yeah. And I’ve noted a whole bunch of things that we can start touching on. But I have one question first to start with. And it’s almost a question that I could ask after I bring up the other things. But I’m going to ask it anyway because...
Derek Sivers
Yeah. We’re having fun with the reverse order questions today, you know, how are you doing? And then who are you? So let’s do this one in reverse order too.
Mitchell
Good. All right. Let me try and think of how to say this in the most succinct way. When you have these realizations right. Do you not struggle, is not the best word, but how do you sort of conduct yourself around other people that are so hell bent in believing the stories and believe that everything that they think is true?
Derek Sivers
I usually just listen, and I often validate their feelings, because usually that’s what people want when they’re communicating their point of view to you. If they say, “Oh, Mitchell, you know this Prime Minister shit and this guy is awful, or, you know, this election, if this guy gets elected, it’s going to be the worst thing that ever happened to this country. And everything’s getting worse.” If somebody is telling you that, maybe you could tell them, you know, that’s not true. But usually what they need to hear in that moment is just like, “Yeah, you’re justified in feeling that way. That’s totally valid. Your feelings are justified. Your point of view is valid.” Usually that’s what people want to hear, because when you tell somebody that you can see things from their point of view, what you’re telling them metaphorically is you are standing on their side. You know, if you say, “Yes, I see it that way, too.” What it says is like, I’m standing next to you, I’m on your side. And that’s what people want to hear when they’re communicating. So usually I just help justify people’s point of view. If it’s a dear friend and I got the message that they don’t want to see things this way, or if I care about them, and I can feel that they might be open to the idea that there’s another way to see it that would be healthier for them. Then I might point out that the way they see things is not necessarily true, that’s just one perspective, but that’s best handled tactfully and ideally with questions. There’s a woman I think her name is no, not Martha Beck. She does something called “The Work”. Sorry I jotted down the reference at the end of my book, but, um.
Mitchell
Yep I know who you’re talking about.
Derek Sivers
Yeah, but she often does this thing where when somebody says a disempowering belief to her, like, “My life is shit and there’s no escape.” She’ll say, “Is that true? Is that really true? Is that absolutely the only way to see it?” And just asking somebody that makes them go, “Well, okay. There could be another way to see it.” So honestly, that’s all I was trying to do with that “Useful Not True” book is kind of shake people up to say, all these things you say are true. You should say not necessarily true, because whatever you consider true is like closed. You know, you’re not going to convince me that I’m not snapping my fingers right now. That’s just true. And I’m not going to question that. And the problem is that some of us hold beliefs in life, like, “I could never do that or I’m just not worthy of this.” We hold those beliefs like they are true facts and we don’t even question them. It’s just like, well, yeah, obviously I could never do that. Obviously I’m not worthy of this, but I think we really need to question those and point out that they’re not necessarily true. There is another way of looking at it.
Mitchell
Yeah. I mean, I fully agree. I mean, sometimes the thing that I struggle with in those certain circumstances is the validation part where I feel, I suppose this is probably for people that I’m closer with, is that it’s almost like again, for lack of a better word here, like enabling their point of view where I feel you know, almost entitled, or I feel like I need to get my point of view across, or even just questioning their point of view.
Mitchell
And sometimes people think that I’m questioning their point of view and it’s like perceived as I’m questioning their beliefs and their values and it can get a bit defensive. And I know that’s why you said it’s almost like a tightrope. You know, like you got to be very particular with what you say and how you say it and who you say it to. Because, for me anyway, there’s a fine line between sort of validating than enabling and then sort of just saying something almost for the sake of saying something, to be right rather than to question their opinion in a nicer way.
Derek Sivers
Yeah. I’m kind of an amateur anthropologist in that I really love hearing other people’s perspectives. And so that’s the other selfish reason that I tend to just enable whoever I’m talking to because I want them to continue. Yeah, tell me more. Tell me more about how the world’s going to shit. I want to hear more of this. Tell me more about how those people are morally wrong. I want to hear. Keep going, tell me more of this. You know, I like it when people elaborate. I like to hear more about it. Even if I disagree with it. I will make myself agree in the moment. I will try to see things from their point of view, even if only in that moment, for the sake of connection with another human, and for the selfish reason of having them elaborate more to me so I can understand even better. How the hell do they see the world that way.
Mitchell
Yeah, for sure and there’s a play component to it, isn’t there? Where you’re able to put yourself into somebody else’s shoes and see their perspective. And when you do that, it sort of broadens your horizon as to how you see things as well. You know, like, for me, if I’m able to listen to somebody. What you’re saying, listen to someone, even though I don’t agree with them and sort of conceptualize and tap into why they’re thinking that way and how they’re thinking that way. I’m then able to go back and realize that, no, even though I still don’t necessarily agree with how they see things. It allows me to think of either that subject or similar subjects in a slightly different shape, which I think is cool.
Derek Sivers
I love that, I love that cherry picking of ideas from somebody without needing to buy into the whole package. So you can listen to a famous speaker or author or media personality that you may disagree with most of the things they say, and your instinct is to just like, ban them as a person, you know? What do we call that? Cancel. “No, I won’t listen to anything that person has to say.” But if you do with an open mind, maybe I should even say like open heart. Because it’s not just intellectual. It’s like emotional. You have to put aside your emotions of repulsion against somebody to listen with an open heart to some of their ideas and go, “Actually, I like that, I can pick that idea.” Even though I disagree with the bigger picture of what they’re saying, “This and this are two really good perspectives I can use from this person. I like that.” And then you make it into your own tuna casserole with your own special ingredients that you preferred, instead of just buying into the set recipe.
Mitchell
Yeah, again. And I’m sure I’ve heard that explanation from yourself and some other people before, because too often with the invention of the internet and social media and things like that, too often we can so easily just hear one sentence, one opinion, like call it 0.001% of of this person’s perspective on life and shut them away. And the rest of the 99% could be of value and significant into what we want to do in our lives. And yet we can we can get caught in judging that one small part of someone. And I agree, man. I think it’s great. I mean, I actively go out of my way to either read and/or listen and/or follow people that I actually don’t agree with most of what they say.
Mitchell
Super duper interesting to realize that there’s a part of me and something that resonates with a person that, you know, a lot of their values are completely different to mine. And yet some of them, for whatever reason, I agree with. And for whatever reason, that interests me. It just goes to show that even though there’s however many billions of people are all unique in our own way, we still have our similarities and whatnot interact in one way or another, I suppose.
Derek Sivers
Yeah, yeah.
Mitchell
Okay. All right. So a few things that I wrote down from “Useful Not True”. They’re either sort of quotes directly from the book or I’ve abbreviated them and what I think to be worth discussing. The first one, the crucial moment between when something happened and when you actually respond. A big one, in my opinion, because most people and including myself some of the time hear something, see something, something happens, and then we react immediately and more often than not, our reaction or our immediate response is emotion driven and not necessarily from a place of love or from a place of where we really want to respond from. And yet, for whatever reason, we choose to do it that way. So, a little bit on that, if you don’t mind, Derek.
Derek Sivers
Yeah. Words can be tricky. When we say things like, “I can’t help myself.” And colloquially, we know what that means. But sometimes people read into that too literally, and they say, “No, I can’t help myself. I can’t help the way I feel.” But come on, if you think about it for one second, of course you can. Of course you can help yourself. Of course you didn’t have to hit that person. You could have stopped yourself. It’s very hard to stop yourself from smoking, if what you want is to smoke or stop from drinking. If you want to drink. It’s really hard, but you can. And that’s where all the best stuff happens, is in that moment of turning the can’t to can or realizing that “I can’t help myself” is not true. It’s not necessarily true. You can challenge that notion. And there’s just that second where, of course, we all feel the feeling of rage when somebody wrongs us or repulsion, like we talked about somebody who you disagree with or somebody makes you mad. See, even that, that’s a kind of a funny phrase that we use, “That person made me mad.”
Derek Sivers
Like you’re not in control of yourself. Is that what you’re saying? So I realized a good rule of thumb is that your first thought is an obstacle. And I like the inner rhyme there, too. Your first thought is an obstacle. The point is to get past it, is to stop glorifying this first thought as if that’s what authenticity is. A lot of people are trying to be authentic, to be their real self, and what that means is that they’re just becoming a slave to their impulses, and they’re acting like their impulses are the boss and their brain is just a tagalong caboose. But instead, you can de-glorify that first thought and see it as an obstacle that you need to get past. So you have your first impulse. You let it sit for just a second, and you think, “Is that the only way to see the situation? Is that the best response?” And even if it just takes you three seconds, you can catch yourself from doing something that you ultimately don’t really want to do. But you were feeling compelled to do, and you can interrupt it.
Mitchell
Yeah. Nice. I started to question those responses, those immediate responses, a few years ago, and I suppose only through practice have I gotten any better at it. And I don’t do it all the time. But I do recognize that I’ve made a lot of improvement in that area by just practicing it by just like, sort of continually catching yourself, you know, something happens or someone says something. And the first immediate response is like, it’s it’s automatic. You know, you don’t even have to think about it. And it’s almost like it just blurts out, just spurts out. But yeah, if you’re able to just sort of... Just for that, it only has to be that split second before you say the thing or do the thing and catch yourself and take a breath and then, you know, ask if it’s true. Ask if it’s coming from the right place. Question it. A lot of the time, I feel like someone that probably knows me and has known me for a while, probably especially in the last few years, probably thinks that... It’s almost like I’ve become more shy and said less than what I used to say.
Mitchell
And it’s probably because I do this. I do this exact by catching myself more often than not. The thing that I was going to say doesn’t really need to be said, or certainly doesn’t need to be said the way I was going to say it. And so it’s super interesting. And what I think for me, anyway, what it’s allowed me to do is similar to what we’ve been discussing already, is just recognize that those responses, they’re often for me anyway again, they’re not necessarily coming from the right place. It feels like it’s just a, “I know more than you, I’m right.” Or whatever it is that. And I love that man, because imagine if everybody did that. Imagine if everybody paused before they actually acted or said something like, I feel like the world would be a very different place, wouldn’t it?
Derek Sivers
Yeah. Even. It’s as simple as asking yourself, “What do I want now? Ice cream. What do I want most? To be fit.” It’s like, okay, it’s choosing what you want most instead of what you want now. So a little example I give in the book is, as much as I love my kid and I’ve talked about it many other places, many other times to anybody who will listen. I love my kids so much. He’s 12 years old and he and I have the most amazing relationship. It’s the closest I’ve ever been with another human being in the whole world. He and I are so tight. We spend about 30 hours a week together, just one on one. Just me and him giving him my full attention. And it’s been like this since he was born. It’s amazing. But sometimes I wake up early to do some work that I’m really excited about. And then after only 15 minutes, he goes, “Dad!” I’m like, “Ahhh.” And my first thought is, “Fuck, I really wanted to work.” And I’m like, “But what do I want more?” Even more than this little stupid project I’m working on right now. Even more, I want a great relationship with my kid, and I want to cherish these few years when he’s still asking me to come jump into bed with him when he wakes up. I’m like, “Oh my God, how many more days is that going to last?” He’s 12, so yeah, I stop, take a second. I’m like, “All right, I’m going to do the right thing, which is to shut down the computer and jump into bed with my boy.” And I’m so glad, you know.
Derek Sivers
And that goes all the times. There are times when I’m busy, really busy. And a friend will reach out to me. Like the phone will ring and it’s an old friend going, “Hi, can you talk?” And I’m like, my first instinct is like, “Oh fuck, not now.” But I’m like, yeah, this is a dear friend. Okay. Everything else will wait. You know, even if I’m there with somebody else or whatever. It’s what you want most. So we can all do that in our moments of, say, compulsion and addiction, you catch yourself wanting to play a video game when you know that what you want most is to learn Spanish or to exercise or whatever it may be. You catch yourself at that moment of even saying the thing that you’re tempted to say, and you catch yourself and you say the right thing instead. It’s important. Some of the best stuff in life happens in those little moments where we catch ourselves. Even, you know, opportunity wise, you might see a person that you admire so much might be suddenly right in front of you at an event. And of course, your instincts say like, “Ah, hide and run. I’m terrified.” And you catch yourself going, “Wait, this is one of those moments I’ve heard about.” And you go against your instincts and you walk up to the person and you hold out your hand and you say hi. Great things happen in those moments too. Some of the best opportunities I’ve had in life came from overriding my instincts and doing the bold thing instead of everything in my emotions were telling me to do.
Mitchell
Yeah. Nice, man, I love that. Yeah, I appreciate the fact that you brought up that a lot of things from your life have come from those moments, because I think that’s true. I mean, as I reflect now, a lot of the things in my life are the same. You know, it’s just taking that one small action or step and just having a small ounce of courage to say that thing, when you probably didn’t want to say it. And it’s a nice way to do things. Okay, next one. How do you make a decision and then make that the best choice?
Derek Sivers
Ah, that’s a loaded question because you read the answer.
Mitchell
It’s a loaded question, I know that, but that’s okay.
Derek Sivers
So this was one of the most interesting things I learned when writing the “How to Live” book is when I thought about commitment and decision. And by the way, it’s interesting that the word decide. The Latin root of decide means to cut, so to decide is to cut off other options. And I realized that very often the way to make the best choice is to make the choice and then commit to it. And whatever you choose and decide on and cut off the other options becomes the best choice because you decided, because you chose it, because you cut off the other options. Then whatever this one thing you choose, whether it’s where to live or who you marry or what car to buy. Doesn’t matter. Whatever that difficult choice was, you choosing it and going into it wholeheartedly with the other options cut off makes it the best choice because then you give it your full attention. You give it your full enthusiasm, you start feeding it, you start nourishing it. You start improving that choice. If you choose where to live and you choose a place, you say, “I’m going to live in Newcastle.” Well, you’re going to make Newcastle the best choice for you by wholeheartedly choosing it. And if you would have chosen Adelaide, then that would have become the best choice for you because you would have thrown yourself wholeheartedly into it. So what that means is we don’t need to worry that much, what is the best choice. Because whatever choice you make and decide and throw yourself into wholeheartedly, you will make it the best choice for you.
Mitchell
Yeah, a couple of things. So first and again, I don’t always do this, but the way I like to see it is what you said. And in not wholeheartedly making it the best choice for you. There’s a certain amount of energy that’s given to the other thing, the regret or the other multiple choices that could have happened from the one choice that you had, and you go down these rabbit holes and blah, blah, blah, right. And by sort of becoming aware of the fact that while you continue to think that way, then that prevents, for me anyway, that would prevent me from making that choice the best choice. It remains a choice with all these other options that didn’t happen and therefore can’t happen. But yet I’m still thinking about them, and so that prevents me from making that best choice. So that’s me and then, you know, I suppose. Why do you think... Because everyone can relate to this, right? Small choices, small decisions. Do I eat that snickers or do I not eat that snickers, right. This is a small example. That’s an easier one in the sense that, you know, snickers is not ideal. Whatever, it doesn’t matter. And then they back that decision. And then they know that by not eating the snickers, that was their best choice. But obviously as the seriousness of the choice and the matter becomes bigger. I feel like anyway, again, from myself as an example, the questioning becomes more serious or for whatever lack of a better term, why do you think that is? And why do you think it is? Because I imagine it’s a struggle for most people. Like not wholeheartedly putting all effort and energy into that one choice. What’s the resistance?
Derek Sivers
Well, fear of missing out. I don’t really have anything non-obvious to say here. I think it’s just the obvious. Obsessing about what could have happened with the other choices. There’s a beautiful book I highly recommend to anyone smart. It’s called “The Paradox of Choice” by Barry Schwartz. “The Paradox of Choice” brilliantly showed that when you spend too much time looking into every possible option, which he calls maximizing, you may end up making a technically better choice. But you’re going to feel worse about it because you’ve invested too much time and emotion into all the other options that you could have chosen. Whereas, on the other hand, if you do a quicker decision, what he calls satisficing. Which is to make a quicker decision and cutting off the other options. It might not be technically the best possible decision, but you will feel much better about it. And they’ve done all these psychology studies and double blind tests and all those kinds of things where people who make a quicker decision and cut off all other options feel better about their decision than people who spent more time or who left the other options open. Like, “Hey, you can pick any item here, but once you pick it, it’s yours for life.” Versus, “You could pick any item here, and at any time you can bring it back and exchange it for a different item.” Well, people who were in that second category of leaving the options open felt worse about their choice because their brain kept thinking, “Oh, but what if I had chose the other option?” And ultimately, feelings matter. So I find it very useful to just satisfice, and that’s something I put into action after reading that book. I tend to make quick decisions and then just dive into them wholeheartedly. And then, like Barry Schwartz said, it becomes the best choice because you chose it.
Mitchell
Yeah, I like that, man. I feel like it’s one of those ones. Probably, like, anything really. It’s just like practicing it in the little things like that snickers example that I gave. To then make it easier and have more confidence to do it when the decisions are a little bit bigger or there’s more, you know, real world ramifications. But yeah, it’s good. It’s something, I suppose, that I struggle with from time to time. You know, I think probably because for most of my life I’ve been more of someone that’s more like rabbit holes, like just, you know...
Mitchell
One question, 7 million answers and tangents on top of those 7 million answers. To the point where I used to just daydream. And these days, I catch myself pretty quick. But when it happens these days, it’s like I could be daydreaming about something, and then all of a sudden I’m like, “How the fuck did I get there?” Like, that is wild to even think that I got to that conclusion from the original question. So I think it’s cool. I think it’s cool just to make that decision short and fast and then really have the courage to be able to back it and put all of your energy and attention into that one decision. You know, and you tell me. But I mean, look, you make the decision, even if it’s the “wrong” decision. I don’t believe it’s the wrong decision. But if it doesn’t go the way you expected or something happens from that decision, as long as you’re not really hurting someone or hurting yourself, you just make the next best decision.
Derek Sivers
Yes.
Derek Sivers
Yeah. And a lot of things we can only really find out in practice, not in theory. So sometimes if you’ve been thinking that moving to Italy would make you happy, well, you could sit there and think that forever. But the only way you’re really going to know is to get up and go to Italy and try it. So I’m constantly encouraging people when they email me with a question like that, you know, “Hey, I’ve been thinking, should I move to Italy, shouldn’t I?” I say, “You’re just going to have to try it.” There’s no way to sit here in your living room and decide yes or no, or is it going to be great or not. You won’t know until you go. Got to try it.
Mitchell
For sure. Okay. Next one. Why do you think most people struggle executing one plan before starting another?
Derek Sivers
I mean, finishing something is hard. The rabbit holes are distracting. It’s easier to get that great sense of initial accomplishment. Going from 0 to 1 is much more satisfying than going from 9 to 10. And I mean that, like, metaphorically, that your first week of learning Spanish, you will learn so much more in that week. You’ll go from zero Spanish to to one out of the scale of 1 to 10 in the first week or two, and you’re like, “Oh my God, what a rush.” And after you’ve been learning Spanish for three years, going from 9.9 to 10 is much less satisfying. But it’s the same week of effort to say, improve your conjunctural past tense grammar or something. That’s probably a bullshit term I just made up. So we feel that with any little rabbit hole we get distracted by, is you’ve been working on this project. It’s getting close to completion. Some other distracting thing that you know nothing about shows up and you go, “Ooh, ooh. What is that? Ooh, maybe that.” Because when it’s in theory, it has unlimited potential. Let’s say the blank page has unlimited potential for the beautiful poem it could be. And every word you add to that page reduces its potential. And so when you’re most of the way down a project and you’ve been putting words on that page, those last few words are not as satisfying as a blank sheet of paper where you put some new words on it because it’s full of pure potential.
Mitchell
Let’s just say the numbers you used that last 10% from the 9 to 10, the people from getting from 1 to 9, just for argument’s sake, numbers don’t matter from 1 to 9 or 9 to 10. I mean, if I’m thinking about myself and and other people, I suppose there is what you said. There’s a challenge in getting that last 10%, 20% done for something to be fully complete. And for whatever reason, we don’t do it, people don’t do it. And then things sort of fall, fall by the wayside because it’s not completed and they go on to the next thing, they haven’t fully followed something all the way through. Do you think that by not doing it and then not doing it again, and then not doing it again, that it becomes almost like a repeated pattern and behavior in not completing something through?
Derek Sivers
Yeah, but so what? You can force yourself to do something that feels unnatural, which is to complete a thing. And I have to do this with myself all the time, because what I’m describing here is a problem I know very intimately that if you leave something in theory, it’s just beautiful. The possibilities in your head of what it could be. And when you do the hard work to make it actual, to make it a thing, it’s usually much less impressive than that beautiful vision in your head. So say, if you’ve been thinking about making a web app or something like that, and you’ve got this idea in your head about how great it could be, and then maybe you hire somebody to help you make it happen, or you do it all yourself. And what you’re faced with there, in actuality, in your web browser is like, “Oh, huh, well, it’s not as good as I imagined.”
Derek Sivers
You’re like not as enthused to complete it because I kind of liked the version in my fantasy instead. It’s probably the same thing with romantic relationships, right? Super easy to idealize that gorgeous movie star as your ideal dream person. Or that person that you keep at afar. You know that person down the hall or across the street that you’ve seen a few times and never spoken to. So easy to imagine that beautiful stranger is perfect in every way versus if you’re seven years into a relationship with that person and it’s like, “Oh, they’re not quite as amazing as I thought.” That’s when the hard work comes in, and that’s when you need to override your instincts and make yourself finish the thing to get it out there, to complete it, to do the hard work in your romantic relationship with who you’re already involved with, instead of just thinking that the solution is to find somebody new.
Mitchell
Yeah, I think pretty sure it was you that gave a Ted talk on something along the lines of keeping your goals to yourself.
Mitchell
It was, wasn’t it? Yeah, it was probably a while ago. Is that a similar thing? Like, do you still believe that to be the case? Because I think that was a while ago that you gave that.
Derek Sivers
Yeah.
Derek Sivers
That Ted talk, if you want to link to it or if anybody wants to go to the URL, go to sive.rs/zipit because the picture is like, “Zip it. Shut your mouth. Don’t announce your goals.” I was quoting somebody else’s work. Peter Gollwitzer, who was an NYU professor that did some studies with a bunch of people that announced their plans to the class versus half that didn’t, and then followed them to see how motivated they were to do the hard work necessary to complete what they said they were going to do. And what he found is that people who announced their plans and got social feedback, like, “I’m going to learn to speak Chinese.” “Wow, Mitchell. That’s amazing. That’s so cool, man. I admire your spirit, man.” Now you’ve just felt the social feedback just from saying that you’re going to learn Chinese and you’ve already had some of the pleasure that you shouldn’t have received until you could actually speak Chinese, because now you’re a little less motivated to make it happen, since you’ve already got some of the reward. So that’s what that study was about, and I was just sharing that on stage. So that wasn’t my opinion, it wasn’t my thought. It was just the TEDx conference asked me to give a three minute talk on that subject so you can find the links to the original work there at that URL, sive.rs/zipit. But I think that’s quite different than what we’re talking about. That’s different than the things that are beautiful in fantasy and not quite as beautiful in reality.
Mitchell
Yeah. Let’s just say we have a goal, right? Is it a matter of rewording that goal so that you’re not getting the satisfaction from it so that you still remain motivated to accomplish that goal or?
Derek Sivers
Yeah.
Mitchell
For yourself, how do you approach it? Obviously you’ve got goals, right? So how would you approach it in that sense rather than just not speaking it to someone? I could be wrong here, but I imagine if you’ve got a goal, it’s not like you’re never, ever going to talk about the thing that you want to accomplish. How do you handle that, let’s just say personally.
Derek Sivers
Well, the real first answer is you have to know yourself and your own motivations and what works for you. Cause nothing some California dude on a podcast is going to say here is going to be the right answer for everybody. So first you just notice for yourself what tends to work for you. But yeah, when you hear of a study like this, you can try this to see how it works on you. How it affects your motivation to say something to your friends like, “I’m going to lose five kilos, so kick my ass if I don’t. If I do not lose five kilos in the next two months. Like, seriously, just come over to my house and take all the food away and lock me in a room.” Or whatever you know. You can tell your friends in such a way that gives you no satisfaction until the job is done. Or just make a deal with yourself. I really will tell nobody until it’s done. I’m going to embark on this secret mission of losing weight, or I’m going to embark on this secret mission of learning Chinese, and I’m going to have my Chinese teachers, and I will tell nobody that I’m doing this until one day a year from now, I’ll be able to say something in Chinese. And they will say, “What? How did you. When did you?” Like, “I’ve actually been learning for the last year. I just didn’t tell anybody.” One of these scenarios. If you’re running it through in your head right now, clearly will seem more appealing to you or feel like it would be more effective for you.
Mitchell
Yeah. For sure. Yeah. I’m listening whilst also trying to think of examples. I definitely think of cases where I have wanted to do something. Like there be a goal and mention it to someone for whatever reason. I’ve then lost enthusiasm in actually achieving it. And I suppose in saying that it’s probably something that I didn’t really want to do anyway, otherwise I would have done it. So it’s nice to say it. It’s almost nice to say... I can’t think of one right now, but it’s nice to almost say it and then not do it for some weird reason, because maybe I didn’t really want to do it. You know what I mean?
Derek Sivers
Or maybe that’s just some bullshit justification, validation to make you feel okay.
Mitchell
Definitely. Definitely that sometimes for sure.
Derek Sivers
Yeah. I mean, I think there was an Aesop’s fable called Sour Grapes of the rabbit that really wanted some grapes in the field. He couldn’t get them. So he goes, “Yeah, they’re sour anyway.” It’s like, “Oh yeah, you know, I really kind of messed up. There was that thing I really wanted to do, and I messed up and I told too many people and I didn’t do it. Yeah, I probably didn’t want to do it anyway.” It might just be a validation for yourself to make you feel better about the past, which might be fine. I mean, again, sorry, you know, I’m still in this mindset because I just wrote this “Useful Not True” book, but that’s a lot of it too, which is none of these things you can say in your head are necessarily true or not. But hey, if it makes you feel at peace, if it makes you either take the action you want to take, or if it makes you feel at peace with the past, then maybe that’s the most useful belief for you. There are probably some God, there are probably millions of people right now that are rationalizing to themselves that it’s a good thing they didn’t get rich and successful like they wanted to because life is just much easier this way, you know? Yeah, it’s probably for the better.
Mitchell
Yeah, “I don’t want to be rich because I don’t need money. I’m happy without it.”
Derek Sivers
Yeah, yeah. I didn’t want it anyway.
Mitchell
Yeah. You’re right. And I think you kind of said this in a roundabout way before as well. You know, a lot of it is just taking action on that thought to then see if it’s actually something you want, because then I suppose like I said before, I’m probably going to have more of an idea that it’s something that I don’t want if I actually do something about it and then not want it. As opposed to thinking about it, the gold or whatever, and then saying out loud and then not doing anything about it and realizing that it could or couldn’t be bullshit. But probably the real test and the real knowing is upon taking some action first and foremost.
Derek Sivers
Yeah and you usually have to give it your all, unfortunately. It’s not enough to spend a day trying to start a new business and it doesn’t work out. So you go, “Ah, you know, never mind. I tried that it didn’t work out.” Or, you know, you approach a person that you’re romantically interested in and you try to say hello, and if the very first sentence you say doesn’t get it, a super enthusiastic response, you go, “Oh, never mind.” You know.
Mitchell
It’s not something I wanted.
Derek Sivers
You got to go all the way if it’s something you care about. God, I mean, talk about a belief. Here I am, of course, I’m saying a bunch of things that are useful not true. But that belief that if you’re going to do something, if you’re going to know for all future time whether this worked or not, you got to give it 100%. You got to go all the way and do the best you can. Otherwise, you’re never going to know whether it could have worked. I will be haunted by that forever if I didn’t give it my best. So the few things I’ve done in life that I’ve really pursued, I just go for it all the way. When I can tell this is something I want, it’s like, I don’t care how much work this is, I’m going to make this thing happen. I mean, I’ll pick a shallow one, an easy one to put in. I’m standing here in New Zealand right now. I’m a citizen of New Zealand. In 2011, that was something I really wanted. I was like, “I really want to be a citizen of New Zealand. I love that little country and I think that would be a great passport to have. There’s nowhere I’d rather be when the next pandemic or World War three hits. I really want citizenship in New Zealand.” And so I looked at what it would take, and it was about nine months of paperwork, a ton of time and money invested, and then I had to be physically present here almost full time six and a half years. And after all that, I did it. I got my New Zealand citizenship, and it makes me so happy when I see that badass black passport in my pocket and I’m like, “I did it.”
Derek Sivers
But there were other things like that. Like like my Ted talk. That was so much work. Sorry, I say my Ted, I did four, but there’s one in particular that you can look up on the Ted website. Not TEDX, but like the big main stage Ted, where it’s like there’s Bill gates and the guys that invented Google, guys that invented Unix, the guys from Google, there’s Vice President Al Gore. There’s Tony Robbins, there’s all these billionaires and geniuses in the audience. And I’m on stage in California telling them what’s what for three minutes. That was so nerve wracking. I put so much work into that. But the feeling is like, “Oh my God, they asked me to do this thing. I have to give it 100%. I have to do my absolute best. Like not a single minute between now and then, diluted or wasted on something else. I need to know that I got up there and I did the best possible talk I humanly could have done so I can feel good about it.” You know and yeah, whether starting my business, old opportunities with my band when I was in the music business long ago, moving here to New Zealand, I don’t know, there are probably some other things too. But, like, it’s really important that you give it your all. At least it’s important for me, that belief makes me take the actions that ultimately, I think help me perform better, and then feel better about my actions later for the rest of my life when I look back. Knowing I gave it my best instead of like, “Yeah, we’ll see what happens, I’ll give it a little try.” You know that would have made me feel worse for the rest of my life.
Mitchell
Yeah. You gave a number of examples there, I suppose. Is that something that you naturally have always done well? Was there instances where you say before you did it the way you do it now, where you recognized upon reflection that you only gave things 80, 90, 95%, and then you recognized that because you didn’t give it 100% for whatever reason, you didn’t get what you wanted out of it.
Derek Sivers
That’s a good question. I can’t think of counterexamples. Oh, yeah, I can. I had a couple business ideas as soon as you said, like, “Oh, I guess I didn’t want it that badly anyway.” I immediately thought of this business that in 2008 seemed like a great idea to me, and I was super excited about it. And I told everyone I was doing it, and then I didn’t follow through and make it happen because I’d already received a bunch of feedback. And then it just kind of looked like hard work, and I was like, “Ah well.”
Derek Sivers
But I’ll always wonder if that idea could have really worked well. And I’ll never know and so I felt the regret of that. And I can tell myself, like, “Ah, you know, it probably wasn’t. I didn’t really want it.” But who knows? Actually, it might have been super rewarding if I would have given it my all. That was one of the few times I didn’t. Yeah, there have been a couple of times I didn’t. I mean, shit, there’s some like romantic relationships in the past that I ditched out on too early. Like as soon as things got tough, one month in, I ditched out, just dumped her, and I look back and I go, “That was pretty stupid me.” Like, I didn’t do the hard work to try to get past that one misunderstanding.
Mitchell
Yeah. I mean, I suppose the reason I ask this is other than being curious is because I suppose people are going to find themselves in those situations. And sometimes for me anyway, it’s important to have recognized the fact that I did only put 80 or 90. It doesn’t matter about the percent, but I only recognize that I didn’t put 100% in to then drive the desire to put 100% in to know that I did 100% because, like you said, how you really know, unless it’s 100%. It’s kind of a hard one to actually know.
Derek Sivers
Yeah. There’s an unfortunate thing that some people have where they want to look cool. Cool in the definition of like casual, you know, cool maybe like the original definition, right. Like not burning hot, but just chill, “I don’t try to, you know, just oh, it’s fine. Nonchalance. And that can be a little toxic because if you’re trying to be cool and nonchalant about everything, then nothing happens. You don’t get extreme results without extreme actions. And a lot of us, when we have a fantasy daydream about what we really want, it’s usually somewhat extreme. We want to be more than just ordinary. And that doesn’t happen with ordinary actions and ordinary effort.
Mitchell
Yeah for sure man. I fully agree 100%, right, I like that. It’s a good reminder for myself. Interesting, I’ve got a few here. “When asked for an explanation, the brain invents a reason and completely believes it.” Very in line with what we’ve been talking about. I suppose my question on that would be because that’s a passage from your book. I get, not caught, but, you know, I like to think of evolutionary and biological reasons as to a lot of things like that and other things. But I suppose why do you think we attach ourselves to some beliefs and fully ignore others? Like, are we gravitated, do you believe there’s sort of a resonance or an upbringing. There’s this multitude of factors as to why we sort of why you believe something, and I believe something, and then why you believe something, and I don’t believe something. Well, it’s obviously these are opinions here, but I think it’s interesting.
Derek Sivers
It is. That’s kind of my amateur anthropologist thing I mentioned earlier. It’s like, I’m so curious why and how people see the world the way they do. I don’t have the answer, but I’m a little obsessed with the question. Ever since I heard this joke in Copenhagen, Denmark in the 90s, my band was on tour. I was 23 or something years old, and it was the mid-nineties when the EU was a forming thing that was about to happen or had maybe just happened. And so a street performer in Copenhagen, Denmark. It was my first time going to Europe, really, since the age of five. And the street performer in Copenhagen made this joke. He said, “The EU will be great if the French are the chefs, the British are the police, the Italians are the lovers, and the whole thing is organized by the Germans.” And he said, “Ah, but now the EU will be a disaster if the British are the chefs, the Germans are the lovers. The French are the police. And the whole thing is organized by the Italians.” And the audience went ha ha ha! But this is my first time in Europe. And I went, “I don’t get it.” And I went to my host that night. I was staying with this family and I was bothering my host. I said, “Wait, well, I don’t get it. Why do the French have really bad police?” And he goes, “Oh, well, you know.” He tried to explain.
Derek Sivers
I said, “Do the British make really bad food?” He goes, “Yeah, I mean British food is just kind of notorious for being bad.” I was like, “But if the British have bad food, can’t they just make it better? Why is why is the French food supposed to be so much better?” And I was like, “Why are the Italians known for being so disorganized? And the Germans are being known for being so organized?” He said, “Oh, it’s just the way they are. You know, Germans are kind of this way like.” “But why? Because geographically you’re here, is it because of your parents? And then where did that start? Whose great great great grandparents collectively in mass were disorganized and taught their kids and their kids and their kids and their kids to be disorganized. Why?” And he goes, “Man, I don’t know. That’s the way it is.” I was like, “But why?” So I still just even on an individual basis, I wonder, like, why do you value stability so much? Why do you value risk so much? Why do you hide so much? Why are you angry all the time? Where is this coming from? So I don’t know, but I’m obsessed with the question.
Mitchell
Yeah. Me too and, I mean, I like to entertain that there is no answer, but the enjoyment is pretending like there is. Like it’s just a constant mystery, you know? And it’s kind of like. Because once upon a time, not having an answer to something would drive me crazy. Whereas now not having an answer to something is actually kind of fun because it’s sort of open. And do a lot of the things that we’re talking about. You know, I was just about to say the next one that I was going to bring up was, “We’re held back not by raw facts, but by the meaning we give them.” Which is very, very much aligned with what you just said about the EU. It’s crazy and because there are limited facts and yet there are billions of people, we all create these different ideas and beliefs. We can create different ideas and beliefs around the same fact. And I suppose it makes for that great mystery that I mentioned before. That for me again, it’s super interesting because it’s recognizing all of the things that we’ve been talking about in the fact that we can have this conversation you and I are having, whilst also agreeing that everything I might be talking about is just complete nonsense. But it’s still fun. I enjoy it anyway.
Derek Sivers
Yeah, same. That some people, when they hear that nothing of the mind is true, no beliefs are true. They think, “Oh God, this nihilism, why do anything? Why live? Why even breathe if there’s no meaning?” And I think, “Oh, I find it very fun to breathe without meaning.” I think it’s fun because if there’s no meaning, then you get to just come up with all of it in your head. You could just try them out. I mean, you know “How to Live” book with 27 different answers to how to live. That’s fun to me, to think of them and to try them. I mean, to go embody them, to go live them. To go spend a couple of years of your life just being hedonistic and surfing, and then spend four years of your life in medical school studying hard and working for the future, and then to spend five years of your life living for others, just teaching. It’s embodying different approaches to life. Instead of thinking that one and only one of those is the answer. How fun to acknowledge that the approaches you could take to life are infinite, and you can go continue to invent new ones and try new ones.
Mitchell
Yeah, after the girls went to bed last night. I sat out the back and just listened to some music as it was getting night, and it was like, I’ve had this similar thought before and you know, you watch the clouds and the trees and the moon and the birds and the bugs and all that kind of stuff. They all seem to have this purpose. And then I start to think, “Well, what’s the purpose of the human race when we do all these fucking crazy sometimes destructive things.” And it’s like a math problem again, that just doesn’t seem to have an answer. And I didn’t really come to this conclusion, but that is what seems to be somewhat the point of the human consciousness right now is to have all of these options for whatever reason, you know. It’s not necessarily a question. It’s just like more of an observation because I suppose if we get caught in thinking, for whatever reason, too much about what our purpose is, we can not see that the purpose is sort of what we’re doing in that moment or right in front of us. Because I do anyway. I don’t know about you, but I can get caught in thinking that it’s this elaborate thing that needs to do X, Y, and z when really it’s not necessary. It doesn’t have to be that, does it?
Derek Sivers
Yeah. I like the meta question. What is the meaning of meaning? Or even better, what is the purpose of purpose? Like why do we think that we need to have meaning and purpose? And you can answer that for yourself. You can say, “Oh, but if I’m doing something that feels meaningless, I’m not motivated to do it.” So you can say, “Okay, so I like to have meaning for my actions. Great. Okay. Then pick a meaning.” You can say the meaning of this entry level job I’m doing for minimum wage is I’m learning and I’m building my skills, and I’m going to work my way to the top. Or you can say the meaning behind, getting down on my hands and knees and crawling on the floor with my kid and letting him ride on my back like a horse is that he’s experiencing the full joy of childhood, which he will bring into the next generation and pass down to his kids. Great. Okay, none of that is necessarily true, but by subscribing to those meanings, by choosing to believe them, you’re giving your own actions more motivation. You’re giving yourself more grit and persistence to do the difficult things necessary.
Mitchell
Yeah, I like that, that you’re choosing the meaning. Again the meaning for you is different for me. Can be different to the meaning and or purpose for me. But it’s about making that choice. Like everything that we’ve been talking about and just wholeheartedly believing in making that the best choice and then just going with it.
Derek Sivers
Yeah.
Mitchell
That’s nice man. Beliefs, emotions, actions. You talk a little bit about this in the book. It’s obviously something that gets talked about a bit. It’s what we’ve spoken a lot about here. You know, the strong held beliefs can create strongly held emotions or facilitate emotions, reoccurring emotions. Et cetera. Et cetera. And then they, for better or worse, they dictate our actions.
Mitchell
And let’s say for me, if I’m acting in a way that I don’t want to act, I need to recognize those emotions that are causing those actions and therefore go back another step and try to identify and reflect upon the beliefs that I have. As to why those as to why I’m acting the way I am. For me anyway, it’s a constant question in whether or not those beliefs are serving me and then choosing to do something about it if I agree in myself that that belief is not serving me. That was pretty long winded there. What I’m trying to say is through the actions of myself, through becoming aware of my actions, am I able to then go back a couple of steps and recognize the emotions and the beliefs? Do you find that to be the same for yourself or in others or whatever?
Derek Sivers
I usually think of it more forwards than in reverse. I’ll give an example that came up just minutes before we hit record. I was reading an article where somebody said, “The web is dead. It’s now just five mega sites that are just filled with screenshots of the other four mega sites. Each of the five just filled with screenshots of the other four. That’s all the web is anymore.” And I thought, “Well, that’s one way of looking at it.” Does that belief empower you? Does that motivate you to do something great, or is that one of those beliefs that just makes you go, “Huh? Yeah, fuck it, fuck it. I’ll just eat ice cream and watch TV and just fuck it. Never mind anything. It’s all shit now.” You know, I noticed there’s some beliefs that if you see the world through that lens, it makes your emotions feel like this. And when your emotions feel like this, it makes your actions like that. So then I go back to the beginning of that story and I think, well, okay, hold on. What if I were to see the web the way that a jazz fan of jazz music, who used to be surrounded by the best jazz in the year 1959, but now it’s the year 2009 and they can go, “Man, the whole music scene is crap. There’s nothing good out there anymore. It’s all just bullshit dance music generated by computers. There’s nothing good out there.” And you can say that to some drunk at a bar and they’ll go, “Yeah, man. Yeah.” You could always find people who will agree with your complaint. But if instead you say, “Actually, there’s some amazing jazz out there right now, it’s just not in the limelight.”
Derek Sivers
So what? Why do I care what’s popular or not? I’m not trying to be a man of the zeitgeist. I’m just looking for good music. So what? It’s not on the radio. Okay, I’ll have to look a little harder, but there’s just as much great jazz out there now. Maybe more than there was in 1959. It’s just not in the limelight anymore. And so same thing with the web. It’s not that there are only five web sites, of course not. It’s just that those five web sites are popular with other people. Who cares? Why do you care what’s popular with other people? You can still find great writing. And in fact, maybe here’s to me, like the at least five minutes before we hit record version of a more useful belief, you can say, because these crap websites showing screenshots of the others are so popular, I’m going to have to increase the quality of my writing so that it cuts through the apathy. I’m going to have to be so good, because the independent blog web is not as popular as it was in 2002-2009. I’m going to have to up my game to call attention to my writing. Now that to me, of all the many different beliefs you could ascribe to, that to me, makes me go, “Ooh, yeah, that like, kind of makes me feel some tingling in my guts, like, ooh, I could do this. Yeah, up my game.” Because it’s less popular. That’s why I have to be better. And, you know, all this shit just went on in my head. But that way of looking at it, that belief leads me to the emotion of striving for intrinsically driven excellence, which leads to the action of me spending more effort to write as great as I can. So that, to me, is a more useful belief instead of the one, “Yeah, it’s all bullshit.” You know. How’s that for an example?
Mitchell
Yeah, that’s a good example, I like it. Where where do the emotions come into that example?
Derek Sivers
Well, it’s that middle step. Let’s just compare those two beliefs, “The web is shit. The web is dead.” Versus, “The intrinsically motivated, non-advertising driven, great writing web is less popular. Therefore, I need to be better to call attention.” That’s the belief. The emotion is whatever happens immediately upon adopting or thinking of that belief. The web is shit, it’s gone, it’s dead. The emotion is like, “Yeah, it’s dead. It’s gone.” The emotion is disappointment, resentment, anger, demotivation. I need to up my game because it’s less popular. The emotion to me is like inspiration, overcoming adversity. You know, we all love some good adversity, don’t we? A challenge to overcome. The gauntlet has been thrown down. I need to take the challenge, whatever you call that emotion is what comes next for me.
Mitchell
Yeah. Nice. One of the reasons why I asked that was because, you know, I like to succumb to my own belief that thoughts and emotions are are opportunities. You know, it’s almost like a in some instances, it’s almost like a voice of the soul. It’s giving you that opportunity. If you’re able to sort of recognize it, then you’re able to question it. And that’s why, again, I suppose it’s just helpful. It’s helpful because one, like we’ve been saying, recognizing that those thoughts and emotions, that they’re not true, they almost never, ever true. And you said it before as well, you know, I’ve had conversations like this with some people and it sounds like you’re being nihilistic. And whether it is or it isn’t, I suppose it works for me. It does make certain conversations with some people more difficult than others. What feels to me, anyway, is those conversations are difficult with another person when their beliefs are really emotionally driven, you know they’re quite stern beliefs, whatever it is, religious, whatever it is, it doesn’t matter what it is. And so again, not the best word, but sometimes there feels like there’s a bit of a barrier between trying to have the conversation that you and I are having, or trying to offer the opinion that you and I are currently sharing with someone that has a really strong held belief. You sort of mentioned it before in having conversations with people and validating feelings and stuff like that. The question, I suppose is, other than asking if it’s true, do you like to just question that person and remain open to seeing their perspective and just wait for the right time to offer advice. If it’s someone that you feel called to. Like, is it a dance? I imagine it’s somewhat person specific.
Derek Sivers
And situation and even timing specific.
Mitchell
Yeah, yeah. Good point. Absolutely.
Derek Sivers
Yeah, yeah. Usually people just want validation like we talked about earlier. A good friend of mine in Perth, her mom just died suddenly at a young age, dropped dead of a sudden heart attack. And she’s devastated and maybe it’s been three months now. Yeah, it’s been three months. Almost every day for three months we talk on the phone as she vents her various stages of grief, and she said a lot of her other friends try to tell her how to cheer up and how to feel better, and how to see it through a better light, and she said, “Thank you for not doing that. Thank you for just letting me wallow. I don’t want somebody telling me to feel better. I don’t want to feel better right now.” And so, yeah, here I am, the the “Useful Not True” guy who has not told my grieving friend to feel any differently than she does.
Mitchell
Yeah. Nice. I think that in itself, it’s almost like it seems easier by not offering the advice, but I think that is definitely the harder thing to do.
Derek Sivers
Yeah.
Mitchell
Right. A natural reaction or my natural reaction anyway, is to try and fix someone or improve the situation or make it good, when in fact that is often not what the other person wants to do, especially if they’re going through something like you suggested or informs of that. You know, that’s a serious situation. But let’s say it’s, you know, whatever. It’s an argument with a partner, something happened at the job or something like that. Like I just want to be heard.
Derek Sivers
Yeah. Think of the more common example, like you just said, about somebody in a unsatisfying relationship that maybe they should break up. And if you’re the one just, like, “Just dump him. Just break up.” Yeah, easier said than done. In fact then you become probably an annoying friend to talk to when things are going hard because your friend knows what you’re going to say, which is just dump him. And you’re right. It’s the harder thing to do to not say that.
Mitchell
Yeah. For sure. Okay, Derek. I mean, I’ve read the book and we’ve spoken about a lot of things today. I wouldn’t call it a sales pitch, because I couldn’t highly recommend the book enough because I enjoyed it. But what would be your biggest takeaway or something? Doesn’t have to be one takeaway. But what’s something that you thought got a lot of value out of writing that book, you feel like other people can benefit from?
Derek Sivers
Usually the difference between failure and success is your mindset, which is your perspective, which is how you see a situation. Whether you see an event as an opportunity or as a disappointment is completely up to your mindset. And so “Useful Not True” is about ultimately choosing the mindset that’s going to lead to help you do what you need to do, or be who you want to be, or at least feel at peace. It’s a very practical book, obviously, and it’s only 96 pages or whatever it is. It’s a very practical book about helping you find the most useful mindset to help you take that action. Do what you need to do. Be who you want to be, or feel at peace. I set out two years ago to write this book. I’ve been working on it full time for two and a half years now. Not knowing what the answer was, I actually set out with a question like, what is this useful, not true thing that I believe. Because I’d been saying the phrase for a few years. Like, “I choose my beliefs because they’re useful, not because they’re true. Nothing’s true anyway, you know? No mindset is necessarily true. So I’m choosing this because it’s useful. What is useful?” I had to ask myself what is useful. And it took months of trying different answers. Useful means whatever helps you do what you need to do, be who you want to be or feel at peace.
Derek Sivers
That’s my definition of useful. I realized along the way that it’s very actions based. And I think the final little icing on the cake was one of the last books I read when researching this. I read like God, I don’t know, 75 books about religions and beliefs and philosophies and all these. I was just trying to get to the root of why people believe what they believe. And right near the end of all this, I read a fascinating book by a theologist. Is that what you call somebody who studies religion? He’s the head theology professor at New York University, wrote a book called “A Religious Case Against Belief”. And coming from a very religious man teaching theology at university, this was fascinating to me that he separated religion from belief. And he said, we confuse these two. But there are beliefs that are not religions. Obviously capitalism, feminism, whatever. These aren’t religions, but they are belief systems. And let’s not forget that there are religions without beliefs. For example, Zen Buddhism is a religion with a prescribed way of being that has basically no beliefs. And so those really are two separate things that before Europeans entered China, or let’s say anywhere in Asia, anywhere in the Americas, even the native Australian languages, none of the American, Australian or Asian languages had a word for religion.
Derek Sivers
There was no word for religion. Their words for their local practices were all variations on things like the way, the rules, the law, the doctrine. It was all about what you do. It wasn’t really until Christianity came and had this idea of like, “What you believe. It matters what you believe.” But until then, what’s inside your head? Who cares? It doesn’t matter what you believe. What matters is what you do, your actions. And this to me, was just the icing on the cake of this subject I’d been studying for two years of going, yeah, even with our beliefs. Like I said, whatever ten minutes ago about the web is dead versus I need to up my game. Who cares what you believe? All that matters is how it affects your actions. And then I realized, well, the whole point of beliefs is to affect your actions. And we can look at those cases of people who say they are religious and say they are believers, but they act like assholes and they’re cruel to others. That’s a great counter example of saying, “Yeah, your beliefs are moot. Your actions are crap.” So what really matters are the actions. And that to me, brought it all back into this kind of self-help practicality of like, this is about being better, doing better.
Mitchell
Yeah. Good answer man. Nice.
Derek Sivers
I had never summed it up like that before. Thanks for asking. That was a fun challenge.
Mitchell
Oh, well. It’s okay. It’s what I’m here for, I suppose. Yeah, I like it also because I think everyone can hear that reminder. We can have good beliefs, but unless we’re really acting good. The term that we’re using here, they’re just thoughts. They’re beliefs. They’re not really anything, you know, they’re of no value to anybody. And I think it’s important to remember. And I appreciate the reminder that it’s what we do, you know. It’s the best example that I always think about is we can tell our kids to do 1000 different things, but they’re going to do what we do. That’s how I like to think of it anyway, having small kids. You know, I can get caught in trying to offer advice, but at the end of the day, they’re just going to do what we do. So we need to be in alignment with those beliefs and first have beliefs that serve us and then act in accordance with them, which is not always easy. But arguably one of the most important things, especially as a as a father. Just a person in general, partner. Just person in society, I suppose. Really, isn’t it?
Derek Sivers
Yeah. By the way, you know, sometimes I think there are some guests who come on to shows like this because they’re just trying to promote their new thing. I’m in a financial situation where I don’t care if anybody listening to this ever buys my book or not. Yeah, I really don’t care. I’m not going to be on the New York Times best sellers list. And I don’t want to be, sour grapes. But what you just did where you kind of asked me to sum up my book that was so useful to me. That’s like the real reason I come on shows like this. Is, well, for one, because of how almost like improv comedy, right? Like you ask me a question, I’m literally standing up in front of a microphone right now, and you ask me a question and I want to give you a good answer. So it’s a great challenge to on the fly come up with something useful and smart that people will find helpful if they’re listening to this. And then number two, the reason I do it is because I really like the people that I meet when I do. So you know, I’m going to tell everybody listening now, like if you go to my website, if you go to sive.rs, you will see the big link that says contact me and that goes to me. And I spend somewhere between 1 and 8 hours a day just answering email. And I really like it. I really like my inbox. I don’t do social media. I’m not on any social media. I don’t surf the web. I don’t like doomscroll, but I do go through every email in my inbox. And it’s a really pleasant place because the people that find me through podcasts like yours are really cool, interesting people that we have a lot in common. That’s why they listened all the way through this in the first place. So yeah, that was my way of saying thanks for asking me really cool, interesting questions and challenging me with that summary. And thanks for having me on the show.
Mitchell
Oh, thank you, mate, because yeah, obviously I’m interested in your work, your books, your thoughts, whether or not they’re true or not. They are of interest to me. And again, you know, that’s why I have these conversations is because, I mean, they’re enjoyable. They are very enjoyable. And I get a lot out of them and it it only broadens my horizon and expands my way of thinking. And then I go away and I relisten to this and especially conversations like this one, which I’ve had many of. It’s just constantly broadening that horizon and that perspective. You know, in my opinion anyway, it’s a never ending expansion and I enjoy it. I think it makes me a better person. And then therefore, I can sort of be a better person for the people that are around me, listeners, but also just just people. So yeah man, I really appreciate you coming on. I’ll put the links and stuff into the show notes and whatnot, and people can enjoy it and read what they feel like reading. Is there anything else that you wanted to discuss before we wrap it up?
Derek Sivers
No. That’s it. Anybody listening? Go send me an email. Say hello. Introduce yourself.
Mitchell
I love that, too. Last question. What does the present moment mean to you, Derek?
Derek Sivers
Not much. Nothing at all. Present moment? Life is what happens when you’re busy making other plans. I am future focused to a fault. My kid is 12, and his mother says to me, “God, can you believe he’s 12 already?” And I think, “God, is he only 12?” Like, in my head, he’s 18. Because I’m thinking ahead. I’m always thinking ahead really, like to a fault. So yeah, to me, the present moment is just in service of the future.
Mitchell
Nice, man.
Derek Sivers
I don’t know if that’s nice or not. That’s that’s my honest answer. Not a prescription.
Mitchell
Yeah, there’s as many answers as there is people on the planet. It’s a good one to finish with.
Derek Sivers
Keeps you on point, keeps you on theme. Keeps people remembering the name of the show they’re listening to. Tune in next week.
Mitchell
I’m also not going to forget the sour grapes thing either. I think I love that.
Derek Sivers
Now I should go find that Aesop’s Fable. I haven’t heard it since I was a little kid, but I think that’s the meaning.
Mitchell
Yeah, I’ll have to look into it. I think it’s interesting because I can already recognize myself catching myself in those moments and just mumbling sour grapes to myself and people saying. Which is fine. All right, Derek, thanks again, mate. I really appreciate it.
Derek Sivers
Cool. Thanks, Mitchell.