Community Collective
host: Paz Pisarski
Happy smart and useful, saying no, making the best of a situation, managing overwhelm, what's enough?, passion and purpose, instilling values in kids.
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Transcript:
Derek Sivers
Hell Yeah or No was actually started from my desire to not go to Australia. I never talk about this angle of it, but I was living in New York City, which you know is just so close to Australia. I had agreed to speak at an event in Melbourne, six months in advance. And as it came closer, I was thinking, "Oh, man, that's a long time to sit on a plane to speak for one hour! I don't know about this." So I called a friend. And let's actually give her full credit. Amber Rubarth is a great singer-songwriter in New York City, great musician. And when I was calling her to complain, I said, "I don't know. It's just I'm trying to decide what's better. I feel like I should only if I really want to do it." And she's the one that actually coined it. She said, "So you're not trying to decide between yes or no. You're trying to decide between fuck yeah or no!" And I said, "Yes, that's it!" The decision is not between yes and no. It's between fuck yeah or no. The idea is, if I feel anything less than "OMFG, that would be amazing!" then just say no. Because the quieter but more important idea behind it is that most of us try to fill our time completely. But instead, if you say no to almost everything, you're going to leave space in your life. That's going to feel a little uncomfortable at first. You'll have spare time. You'll have spare energy. But that's the point, because then when the occasional opportunity comes along - something amazing that is really worth your effort - well now you're going to have the time and energy to put into that one thing because you said no to everything else. Whereas most of us are spread so thin that when a great opportunity comes up, we can't give it our all because we've said yes to too many things.
Paz Pisarski
And it's so potent, right? Because imagine a world where our calendar is only filled with things that are a heck yeah, you know, and you have this life that is so worth living. And a lot of us here on this call, we're founders, community builders. I mean, scenes, add a thumbs up if you're a founder running your own business or you are just spread thin, you're feeling like you're all over the place. It can be really hard to know what to focus on and what to say yes to. But I love this kind of, what do we call it, like a radical analogy to round, it's either a 10 out of 10 or a 12 out of 10, or it's a no and anything below that. And, you know, I love this sentence in the book, Derek, that says goals shape the present, not the future, because, you know, we always think, well, I've got to set goals for what I want my future state to be in. But I'd love to just unpack this idea. Like, how do you go about setting goals? You know, obviously that would then help you make decisions day to day. We kind of need a North Star, right?
Derek Sivers
To me, it's the intersection of happy, smart, and useful in one of those Venn diagrams where they intersect in the middle. And what this means is, first, obviously, what makes me happy? What am I happy doing? That's the easiest one. What is smart means like a smart use of your time, a smart action to take. We'll come back to that in a second. And then useful to me is being useful to others. So for me personally, I'm not saying everybody else should do this, but for me personally, I make this happy, smart, and useful decision almost every single day. Whereas hell yeah or no is like the hammer that I pull out of the toolbox every few months. Hell yeah or no is something I do not use every day. It's a tool for a specific situation when you're overwhelmed with too many options and you've been saying yes to too many things, sometimes you just need to raise the bar all the way to the top so that almost everything's a no. But that's not a way to approach everything in life.
Derek Sivers
So happy, smart, and useful. Okay, here's an example. It would make me happy to go to Africa and help people that are underprivileged. It would not be smart of me to go grab a hammer in my hand and try to thatch roofs in Kenya. It would be useful to other people, and it would make me happy, but it's not a smart strategy. There are already people in Kenya that are better with a hammer than me. it would be a dumb strategy to help the world is to think that I need to fly there and grab a hammer so but then there are things that are helpful to others and smart but they don't make me happy I really don't want to do that and then there are things that are happy and smart but maybe not useful to others and it would just be completely indulgent so to me I personally like to find the intersection of all three of those things. And I use that almost every day, even sometimes on a moment-to-moment basis, where I've got infinite things in my projects folder, in my to-do list that I could do. I look at them and I think, I'm going to give the priority to the ones that are definitely useful to other people, a smart use of my time, and make me happy. And in my case, I have a weird quirk that I'm just generally a happy person. So the first one is usually taken care of. I focus more on what's useful to others and would be a smart thing to do.
Paz Pisarski
Oh, how good's being happy? I mean, what a beautiful feeling. And I love that framework to think, okay, does this make me happy? Is it smart and useful? And I love how you've defined useful as an act of service. It's helping others in that sense. But you're also, you know, taking into account how you feel in that decision, because so many of us can go, well, it's probably smart. It's probably useful because it's helping someone else. And we might have people pleasing tendencies. We end up down this rabbit hole of doing things that might be smart and useful. But we've just forgotten this one thing of what is it? Oh, ourselves and how we show up in this world. And I'd love to just dig deeper around into that. I mean, do you have other examples of decisions that you've made that have ticked all of those boxes or that haven't ticked any of those boxes?
Derek Sivers
I usually do things mostly in the service of others. I wake up in the morning and I think what I can do for others. Every now and then I think there's just this thing I want to do and it's just for me it's not useful it might not even be smart but I really want to do it so for example seven years ago I spent months learning to speak the Esperanto language which is completely useless but it was on Christmas day when I just was reading a little something about Esperanto and It was just fascinating. And it was one of those things where I sat down in the chair at like three o'clock thinking I was going to get up at four. And I stayed in that chair until it got dark. And I looked up. I was like, oh, my God, I've been sitting here reading for six hours. I got up at 10 p.m. I was just fascinated with the Esperanto language. So I spent six months becoming fluent in the language called Esperanto for no purpose. It served nobody. It was a stupid thing to do. It was not useful, but I just wanted to do it.
Paz Pisarski
Oh, how the irony of Esperanto. I remember, yeah, didn't you go to like a conference of Esperanto speakers? You were like, oh, I'm so excited to go speak Esperanto. This is going to be so useful. And you got there and you didn't want to converse with anyone. Like walk us through that.
Derek Sivers
Yeah. Okay. So Paz knows the punchline that, yes, after six months of learning Esperanto, I went to the international gathering of Esperanto speakers in Seoul, Korea. And I was so excited. And I got there and it was a bunch of pathetic hippies. I didn't want to talk with them. And I was looking at this room full of people going, oh, damn. Oops. So I had a few Esperanto conversations that day and then I never spoke it again.
Paz Pisarski
Yeah. Yeah. Well, I don't speak Esperanto, so we'll stick with English. But there is a language around saying no, you know, and obviously, you know, we've got a bit of a framework of what to say yes to. So I'd love to dive into, like:
Paz Pisarski
How do we say no? It can feel so hard. Maybe we're going to offend someone. Do you have any ideas around how you've said no in the past or just if people are feeling a bit fragile and it's not a muscle they've exercised here? But where do we start?
Derek Sivers
Okay, the best thing you can do, everybody should do it if you haven't already, is to write a form letter. A short, generic, little form letter that says something like, Thank you for asking. So sorry I can't. I'm just really focused on my work right now. Hope you understand. Maybe ask again someday. Seriously, thanks for thinking of me just trying to stay focused here. Something like that. If you take five minutes, 15 minutes to write it once, save it in a place on your phone, on your computer. So it's easy to long press, copy, paste. It is so helpful. There are so many times that I get an email or a text that's some big invitation. hey, Derek, would you really like you to come show up at our event or a thing? Or, hey, Derek, could you read my novel? And I get it and I go, oh, God. Oh, oh, this is devastating. No. And I think, oh, God, I've got this form letter. Oh, thank you. And I just find the form letter. I paste it in. Send. Ah, it takes a few tries to get it right. Do your best the first time and see how it feels the first few times to send it. You'll find that you probably want to tweak it a bit. And my advice is to save your tweaks to your form letter so that you can keep using the improved version. So now I think I've actually been using the same cut and paste no for like 12 years. And believe it or not, I've actually had multiple people come back afterwards and say, wow, that was the nicest no I've ever heard. Thank you so much. Yes, they're thanking me for saying no. So that's my big number one advice.
Paz Pisarski
Oh, I love that.
Derek Sivers
Have a verbal version ready too. So that if somebody's just on the phone, on the street, asks you to do something, you got to have a verbal version of your form letter ready to speak. So like, ah, thank you for asking. I'm just really trying to stay focused on my work right now. you know you got to have that on the tip of your tongue to just use it and once you do this then you don't feel bad it's just a common thing people ask you to do things your answer is no you just cut and paste that form letter or you speak the thing you're used to saying
Paz Pisarski
Having that somewhere so easy to access it's not it's not even you know something that you need to think about i you i personally use text replacements on iphones and apple and so if I type no with a number one and I post that in the chat, that's my no response that just gets sent automatically. And definitely, I think there's a lot that we can do here around. Also realizing that someone might come to us with a ask and also realizing that we don't have to be the person that does it. But now we understand, oh, okay, like you're looking for a speaker on this topic. It's not me, but let me suggest five other people. I'll email intro you, off you go. I find that kind of delegation, like segue triage, kind of like the hotel concierge process very helpful as well.
Paz Pisarski
And, you know, in terms of, I guess, like values alignment, because there's always going to be these kind of big decisions that come up, might have this internal compass. I mean, I'm so curious, like, what kind of values have guided you in the past around making big decisions of, like, even selling your company, CD Baby, even renouncing your American citizenship, moving to New Zealand? Have you had any kind of internal compass, big principles that have really helped you through those big decisions?
Derek Sivers
Yeah. Thanks for asking. I haven't thought about this in a long time.
Derek Sivers
Abraham Maslow was a psychologist that invented the Maslow's pyramid of self-actualization. And he had a beautiful quote that said, we're presented with the choice between safety and risk. He said, make the growth choice a hundred times a day. And I like that, that every day in small and big ways, you have that little moment where you could choose the safe thing or the growth choice. And most of us stick with the safe thing and the habit and the thing we're used to doing. We're like, oh, I don't know, that sounds kind of weird. But I love that I read this quote from Abraham Maslow when I was a teenager and just mentally kept it in my pocket. And I think of it so often that when I catch myself by default choosing the safety thing, I'm like, ooh, I don't know, that choice sounds weird. That sounds hard. I think, ah, Maslow says, make the growth choice 100 times a day. I ended up inventing my own version that's a little catchier for me, which is just whatever scares you, go do it, because then it won't scare you anymore. So I follow that one even more. But you can sense a theme here that my underlying value is I want to live a full, rich life that's had many different lives inside of it. I want to do many different things. I want to be many different people. I want to see the world from many different perspectives. And often I'll just choose the thing that's unknown to me, the thing that scares me, because that's the part of the map that says, here lie dragons, because I haven't been there yet.
Paz Pisarski
Do what scares you. And if you realize it scares you, you've got to go do it. I mean, as long as it's happy, smart and useful, if like jumping off a cliff is scary, maybe think that one twice. But I love that kind of, I guess, guiding principle to help you really understand what's worth doing. Because, of course, if you stay in your comfort zone the whole time, right? I mean, do we ever change? What kind of experiences are we having? And it's really interesting.
Paz Pisarski
A lot of our members are talking about boundaries. And we were talking about boundaries at the start around, okay, I mean, how do we draw the line for something? If we wear so many hats and we actually do want to go, all right, I want to do what's happy and useful and smart. I've got my boundaries. I've got hell yeah or no. But are there actual boundaries that we should set? Do you have actual boundaries that you set that might be, okay, I don't take meetings on a Wednesday, like really practical type day-to-day things that help you, I guess, live the life that you want to live?
Derek Sivers
You might have heard of the low information diet. I think Tim Ferriss might have coined that idea in the four-hour workweek way back in 2007, which relative to 2025 would seem to be a time of relatively low information 18 years ago. But even then, it was already a problem, this idea of just receiving too much information. So this isn't a hard heroin-type boundary. by which I mean I would never, ever, ever, ever, ever do heroin. But I have never had a social media app on my phone. I don't look at any social media. I don't really look at the news. I think I'm constantly, everyday, moment to moment, on a low information diet. I'd rather get unhyped information from books or pull information from the newer AI LLM tools, which are so beautiful for, instead of asking Google a question, asking ChatGPT a question and getting a paragraph of text, which is all I ever wanted. I didn't want the ads. I didn't want the, hey, don't forget to smash that like button. I just wanted a paragraph of text. And I love that I can use ChatGPT to just get the paragraph of text I wanted. Meaning like if I have a question, you know, what's the capital of Kenya? Whatever it may be. Or what should I do if I'm visiting Abu Dhabi? I don't want a bunch of hype to shove down my throat. I just want a paragraph of text, please. So yeah, I think I'm constantly on a low information diet.
Paz Pisarski
I'm loving the life that you're painting. You know, it's really intentional and conscious. And you've really thought about what works for you. And I'm sure that there's probably members on this call around feeling overcommitted and overwhelmed. They've like gone too far. You've probably said yes too many times. I mean, CCN's had a reaction if you feel like you're in this bucket right now of just you're wearing too many hats. You've kind of over-indexed.
Paz Pisarski
Derek, what would you say to any of us here on the call who are in that position of, whoa, I'm overwhelmed. I'm overcommitted. I've said yes too many times. Where do I go to from here?
Derek Sivers
Nobody cares what you're bad at, and neither should you. Think of your role models, your heroes. They're probably your role models and heroes because they got really damn good at one thing. And all you care about is that one thing. You don't care that they blow off their local community bake sale. You don't care that they don't do most things in their life very well. You only really care that they're really damn great at one thing that matters. And that's why they're well known. And that's why they are your role model. And that's why they have a big impact in the world. So I think it's wise and timely to ask that of yourself. What is the one thing that I would want to be great at, even if it meant letting go of everything else? Of course, you could draw the line here. Like, of course, you're going to still love your kids or whatever. You're still going to sleep.
Paz Pisarski
Sell the house. Off you go. Sell the kids. They're not profitable. Sell the kids. Yeah.
Derek Sivers
But yeah, what is the one thing that you could just excel at that one thing? And then you have to realize that in the big picture, life and history and people looking back at the year 2025 and looking back at your life, all those little things you didn't do so well won't matter. Nobody really cares. If you do one thing really well, it's all worth it.
Paz Pisarski
Yeah. And this notion, what's coming up for me when I listen to your answer as well is this notion of seasons, because you can have it all, just not all at once. I'm really thinking about the season of life that we're in. And so for me personally, I'm in my community collective season from Feb till May of this year. And then I am in Paz season for June, July, I'm in music world and I don't work on the community collective and I have that season and it helps me know which season I'm in so I can go okay great well I can't give it all as a musician right now but I know it's coming and that's cool but allows me to have that space and so this notion of working in season has that ever come up for you do you have this I feel like you've had multiple seasons of your life of like business owner traveling.
Derek Sivers
Yeah, well, I love your way of dividing the year into a few months each and saying, this is a few months for this, and this is a few months for that. That's beautiful. I should do more of that. Instead, I tend to have many year-long cycles.
Derek Sivers
So yeah, my advice for people is don't be a donkey. And what I mean is there's this tale of Buridan's donkey. You can see it on Wikipedia. I think he was an old French philosopher that said he used the donkey as a metaphor of a donkey that is exactly halfway in between a pile of hay and a bucket of water. And he's both hungry and thirsty and he can't decide. He keeps looking at both and he falls over and dies of thirst and starvation. Whereas if the donkey would have had the foresight to realize he can go have the water now and then have the food after, then the donkey would be healthy and happy. Don't be a donkey. Use the future. Use your foresight to realize that you can take a few years right now to focus on one thing. And these other dreams and the other lives you want to live, you can use the future. That unless you die a premature sudden death, you're probably going to have a long future. You can use that future and do some of these things in three years, in 10 years.
Derek Sivers
My personal example of this is pretty extreme. In 2008, I sold my company and I had never traveled at all in my whole life. I had no interest in travel. And suddenly in 2009, free of my company, I just went, there's a big world out there and I want to be in it. I want all of it. And I set out on this beautiful mission. My mission was to live all around the world for like six months at a time. Six months to me being about the time it takes to get to know a place and really kind of feel at home there, right? So I was going to go increasingly difficult, right? So starting from New York City, it's going to go to London, dead easy. Go to Melbourne, dead easy. Get a little harder. Go to Amsterdam, a little harder. Berlin, a little harder. Moving all the way up to, say, Beijing. And then who knows, like Ulaanbaatar, Mongolia, something in Pakistan. I don't know, like get harder and harder. And I was on this beautiful mission. And as I was passing through New York City, I met this hot girl and we dated for about eight or nine months. Didn't work out. We broke up. And after we broke up, she found out she was pregnant. And I went, oh, I didn't want to have kids. And so she said, well, we're having a kid now. So at first I said, OK, well, we can raise a kid around the world. And she said, OK. And after a few months, she said, no, I hate it. I hate traveling. No, no more traveling ever again. I'm done. I'm staying right here in Wellington, New Zealand. We're done. And so then I had to choose. Am I going to do my life's mission or am I going to be a dad? Am I going to be a good dad? So I chose being a good dad. And my life's mission is on hold for 18 years until the year 2030 when he doesn't need me here anymore. And then I will go back to doing what I was doing in 2010 and desperately, passionately, deeply want to do. But I have to use the future to know that I can do it after.
Paz Pisarski
You're definitely not a donkey, that's for sure.
Paz Pisarski
And what a beautiful season of your life that you know you're in and that you also know what's coming. I think it also makes us appreciate the now more. You know, we soak that in because we know that we might move into a different season.
Derek Sivers
It helps you indulge deeper into this phase, especially if you can say, this is a phase, this is what I'm doing for a short time. It could go with anybody here in the, your members. You could say, I'm going to focus on money for just a couple of years. I'm going to go maniacally focused on making as much money as I can. And then I'm going to go write my novel, or I'm going to ignore all money issues for the next two years and write my novel. I'm going to ignore everything else. This is a phase. I'm going to do it. I'll big borrow whatever I need to do, sleep on couches. I'm going to finish this novel. And then in two years, I can start making money again. It's an important point that it helps make the current moment more beautiful and can be even more wonderfully extreme if you know that in the big picture, it's just a phase.
Paz Pisarski
Yes, yes. My community building brain is like applying that to running like cohort based models where you go, this is the start time. This is the end time on the 16th of May. Once it's done, we're gone. It's over. We don't we don't have any more live sessions. And you go, oh, well, I've got to show up. I've got eight weeks of this season of learning. And then I go out to the rest of my life and apply everything in that notion. And I love that because you go through an experience as a group of people who are committed to something. And then you have some breathing room, life happens, and then you can come back if you need.
Paz Pisarski
So Derek, I'm going to ask one question about what is enough. Just a really easy, simple, straightforward question. And then members, we're going to come to you. And I would love all of you to think of a question. Jump in the queue if you want to ask a question to Derek here live. But Derek, first, I want to dive into this notion of enough. You know, like what is enough? Do you have a definition of what that looks like and how do you think about it?
Derek Sivers
I've never defined it before, but I think it's just diminishing returns. That if you work really hard, let's just use money as an obvious numerical thing we all have heard of. That if you work really hard to make money, there is a time in your life when getting some more money makes a huge difference in your life. Oh my God, it solves so many problems. Oh, wow, this is such a relief. It can be great up until a point. Then you have to ask yourself, if I got more, how would that change my life? And as the changes start to diminish, you hit your point of enough. So that is why I gave away the $22 million when I sold my company is I already had enough. CD Baby was profitable. I had $4 million after paying off all my debts, paid off mortgage, everything. I had $4 million just sitting in the bank. So when I had this agreed upon sale price of $22 million, I had some soul searching to do. Like, what am I going to do with $22 million? Oh, boy. And as the months went on, I went, I'm not going to do anything with it, am I? I really don't need it. I don't want it. I'm not going to use it. I'm not some hedonist playboy. I don't want a mansion. I don't want a Ferrari. What the hell am I going to get $22 million for if I don't even need it? There's some people out there that really, really need it. There's some people that are dying, can't eat or whatever. I need to get it to them instead. It's not even altruistic. It's just logical. If I'm not going to use it, why would I take it? So I didn't.
Paz Pisarski
And didn't you start a trust or a charity to also donate to musicians?
Derek Sivers
Yeah, it was a nice way to, it made me feel good, made me feel full circle that I transferred CD Baby into a charitable trust before selling it so that the $22 million never touched my hands. It went directly into the trust. So I could not be tempted to change my mind.
Paz Pisarski
It went all to this one musician, Paz Pazarski, right?
Derek Sivers
yes. It's coming your way after this. Thank you for having me on.
Paz Pisarski
Here's your plan. No, no, no. I love that. I remember hearing your podcast. It was like a three-minute episode, which is just amazing in itself. And it was the definition of wealth. And it said, well, to be wealthy, you define what is enough. If I have $1 million, but I am looking for $100 million, well, then I'm pretty poor and I don't have enough. But if I have $1 million, but I only want $100, like I am wealthy and external wealth can either be generated from obviously generating money elsewhere, or wealth can be generated by just wanting less and living on less. So I just, I love that. I love that, Derek. Someone just if you're a life coach in the chat.
Derek Sivers
No, I am a podcast guest.
Paz Pisarski
Very good at that. Well, CCNs, we are going to move into our audience Q&A section. So now what we get to do is we all get a moment to just think of a question, actually just let some awesome insights just segment into your mind. So we're going to take one minute and CCNs, If you have a question that you want me to ask on your behalf, you can post that in the chat or jump in the queue and we'll listen to some music for one minute before we go into audience Q&A.
Paz Pisarski
Question from Brad from when you spoke about find that one thing and be known for it. What is your one thing? Have you tried that and do you have something at the moment?
Derek Sivers
Probably my writing. Even after CD Baby, I realized that I think the big reason that CD Baby got successful more than its competitors is I was better at communicating the ethos and describing the dream. I was better at communicating with musicians than the six other companies that did the exact same thing as CD Baby. So I think actually it's been my writing all along.
Paz Pisarski
I remember the email at CD Baby of when you get a CD and it was like a whole team have polished this off and then carried it and we cheered and had a parade as we sent your music out into the world. And that email like went viral. Did you write that yourself?
Derek Sivers
Yeah, it was like 10 minutes in 1998. It was just like, yeah, I'll just rip up a quick silly thank you note. And yeah, it worked.
Paz Pisarski
Yeah, things go a long way, huh?
Ruby
Derek, I'm tuning in from Melbourne now. Been a follower of your work for years, so honoured to be learning from you live. Love the framework you've given us today, happy, smart and useful. I'm curious what made you say yes to spending your time live with us here today?
Derek Sivers
Big number one: Paz and I had been emailing for a long time and I felt that she really got my writing and I think she got the context so it's I felt that it was going to be a good conversation. The worst kind the kind that I say no to is if they only want to talk about money they only want to talk about business or if it's like "Hi I'm a big podcast host I've heard that you're a good guest. So I don't know anything about you, but come on." And then I say hello. And they're like, "Our guest today is Derek Seeeavers. Is that how you pronounce it?" And I think, "What am I doing here?" So Paz was the opposite.
Ruby
Thank you for sharing that.
Paz Pisarski
Love that spicy question, Ruby.
Derek Sivers
You know, I don't do these things to sell books. I'm not here to promote anything, as you can tell. I'm not here with a pitch. I do it for the people that I meet. So the only reason I agree to appear on a podcast or a call like this is if I would really like to meet the people listening or watching.
Derek Sivers
So that's actually my only ask. I'm not going to tell you to go follow me. I'm not going to tell you to buy my book. I'm going to say go email me. Go to my website - sive.rs - and send me an email and say hello, because the kind of people that are doing what you guys are doing and are motivated enough to seek out paths and do the community collective like this, like you're my kind of people. I want to know you. So email me and say hello.
Paz Pisarski
I love that. Yes, Enos has just popped the link in the chat. So please, CCNs, click the URL, bookmark it, and send Derek an email of one thing that you enjoyed today to continue the conversation, which is so potent. And thank you so much, Ruby, for your beautiful question. I'm so glad it was a hell yes, Derek. It's a pleasure. And as well, we've got a question here from Alex next. So Alex, feel free to unmute and share your question. what have you what are you thinking about hey
Alex
Derek also from Melbourne myself I really loved reading your book I read at the start of the year and I feel like a lot of the parts about identity really spoke to me I thought that was really interesting and you had a few unique takes on identity and one of your quotes was around old opinion shouldn't define who we are in the future I feel like we live in a time where people's opinions they really like hold it close to them and everything's quite politicised at the moment. So my question is, how do you try to, like, strip those opinions away from your identity when things are adapting and changing and not allow them to sort of stick with you, even with new information?
Derek Sivers
I think if I stop flip-flopping, that means I'm a dead fish, that I think it's so healthy to change your mind. If you're changing your mind, it means you're learning. We want to be someone that changes our mind. We want to be somebody that's seeing new perspectives that we hadn't considered before. Nobody wants to just say, this is who I am, this is what I think, and I'm digging my heels into the ground. You can't convince me otherwise. That's not admirable. It's the person who learns and changes. So you can have whatever values you want, of course. For me, like I said earlier, I want to live a full life where I see the world from different perspectives. So almost any time I notice myself too dug in to one point of view, I'll deliberately steer towards it. because I've got a natural aversion against it. So I think, all right, well, there's a blind spot for me.
Derek Sivers
In fact, I'm going to tell you guys something really embarrassing. Are you ready? Until a week ago, I have been very anti-Apple. I have avoided Apple things. You can see in my first book, if you want, Steve Jobs dissed me once in a keynote. So Steve Jobs, I am not a fan of your products. And last week I reluctantly bought a Mac. And I'm actually embarrassed of it. I have a page on my website that says like what I use, my equipment I use. And I'm really reluctant to put it on there because I'm like, oh, I'm embarrassed to admit this. But I steered into the thing that I was averse to.
Derek Sivers
And yeah, I try to hopefully keep doing that often. So, yeah, if there's a religion that you find perplexing or you think that people who believe that religion are crazy, go find a Fordhamese book on that religion. While I was writing my newest book, Useful Not True, it's all about beliefs. So I thought, well, I better learn more about beliefs. I went and read books about Judaism, books about Islam, books about Hinduism. I read the entire Bible cover to cover, even though I wasn't raised Christian. And so many things where I put myself into the thing that I thought was crazy to try to understand it better. And to me, that's a good recipe for a healthy mind.
Paz Pisarski
How's that sitting with you, Alex?
Alex
Yeah, no, that definitely answers my question. And it kind of reminds me of like a steel man argument as opposed to a straw man argument where you like lean into it a lot more to learn more about it. And then, yeah, you can develop more of a stronger case from that new information. So thank you for that sharing that, Derek.
Paz Pisarski
And even just to build on that, Derek, I love the analogy of reframing a painting as almost changing a belief. You know, could you walk us through the analogy in the book? I loved it so much around when you're thinking on one track, but it's like, obviously, you have to get a painting and reframe that, but how it applies to our mind. You say it way better than I do.
Derek Sivers
Oh, I mean, there's so many aspects to this, but whenever you catch yourself saying something is a certain way, and that's just that, if it's not a physical concrete reality that is absolutely necessarily true for everyone everywhere always, well, then this thing that you've defined as just the way it is, is only one way of seeing it. So kind of like a brainstorming exercise, you can force yourself to find another point of view, even if it takes hard work. So the best example is whenever something bad happens, you get into the habit of asking yourself, what's great about this? And usually if something bad has just happened, you're in a sour mood. If you ask yourself, what's great about this? Your first answer is going to be nothing. There's nothing great about this. This is just awful. It's terrible in every way. And you have to keep asking. All right. Very good. Nice. Nice fit. OK, now what's great about this? Something is great about this. And you make yourself find it. And that's classic reframing. It's a way of either feeling better about something that's out of your control or realizing that something you thought was out of your control is actually completely in your control. Because so much of life is not the neutral event that happens, but it's how you respond to it. And that's totally up to you. It's in your control. So that's classic reframing.
Paz Pisarski
I used that the other day when I got a text from Airbnb that says, your Airbnb in Madrid has been cancelled and it's in two weeks and it's like mid-summer. I was like, oh, I was like, okay, okay. I was like, that's annoying. and then messaged a friend who lives in Madrid. I was like, you know anywhere I should go? She was like, oh, come stay with us. I've got a spare room now. We got rid of that dog. It was too dangerous that we were like dog sitting for a while. So you can come stay. We were like, oh, how good's that? So now I get to go stay with my best friend. I was like, oh, that's a beautiful thing. It's happening for us, not to us. It was a roundabout way.
Paz Pisarski
Well, Alex, thank you for the beautiful question. And as well, I want to mention as well that Derek and I were chatting in our tech check before. And both of us are happy to stay on this call for, what was it, Derek? Another 48 hours straight? 48 hours. Yeah, 48 hours. The marathon has begun. Yeah. We're going to be live for as many questions that we want to get through today in a reasonable amount of time. But if anyone CCNs has to leave on the market quarter past, you're welcome to roll. But we're going to roll through lots of questions and have a good time for a reasonable amount of time, at least five days, I think it was. Yeah. Beautiful. Well, we've got our next question here from Brad. So Brad, please take us away.
Brad
I'm Brad. I'm in Adelaide. And I wrote down a few questions, but I think they all kind of point to the same direction. So I'll go to that. I think I'm in the moment in a bit of a place where I'm in a, it's a hard time and I'm finding I'm doing lots of really short-term thinking. And I think reading into the chat, there are a few others kind of in that space of kind of like, I don't know, just really, and I can feel this kind of tension of this short-term thinking and that leads to kind of decisions that I know kind of as I reflect on them are not really the decisions I want to be making. And I know that it's connected to that kind of that short term thinking. And I guess I was wondering whether whether you've had kind of moments like that across your life or your journey with CD Baby and how, yeah, maybe how you find your way out of that, out of, yeah, out of that place and space.
Derek Sivers
Such a good point. Such a good question. It's so important to daydream. I find it so helpful to journal i'm on the verge of saying that uh there's nothing i think everybody in the world should do but wait there is i think everyone in the world should journal it's so helpful to organize your thoughts to question your thoughts like if you catch yourself writing down something like i just need to do this thing it's helpful to see that and ask yourself do i need to do this thing is that true how could that be false what if i didn't need to do this thing just like it's like exploring your mind it's poking around in there and getting off of the highway and onto the little side roads of your mind i like that i just that up i like that a lot the highway is like the thing that you're used it's what everybody does it's where everybody goes and even that's where you're used to going everybody takes the highway of your mind and you can explore that little dirt road that you've passed by in your mind meaning like the thought the forbidden thought that you don't usually go there like what if i quit uh what if i left or what if i started something completely new that is so unlike me what if i moved to helsinki what if i uh you know etc just start to explore these options like a brainstorming and what it does is it pulls you out of this present limited thinking and gets you thinking farther, especially if you start doing that with time. Okay, so here's Brad in 10 years. Here's Brad in 30 years. What do I want out of my life? Where do I want to be when I'm 70? What will I look back at? You know, okay, you've heard all of this stuff before, but it's so useful to not just do it, but really spend some time there. Kind of like, Yes, it's good to go to the gym, but it's not that useful if you go to the gym for five minutes. If you go to the gym for an hour a day for a month, it's going to have a lot more effect. Same thing with your journaling. Yes, it's good to journal for five minutes. It's even better to do it for an hour and to really poke around in there and explore and see other possibilities and get yourself out of this present moment by using daydreaming, imagining, counterfactuals, what ifs, challenging yourself, doubting things, et cetera.
Brad
That's awesome. I love that. And it sounds like the questions that you ask yourself are like, what ifs and things like that to kind of get that thinking happening and heading down those dirt roads.
Derek Sivers
Yeah. Honestly, I swear I'm not trying to pitch a book, But my last book called How to Live was all about that. It was 27 chapters, each one very opinionated, that said, like, here's how to live. Live entirely for the present moment. There is no future. There is no past. The present is all there is. And it would be an entire chapter of that telling you how to live in the present moment. The next chapter would say, here's how to live. Live for the future. Everything you do should be in service of a brighter future. Never mind the present. Never mind the past, work on the future, etc. Every chapter contradicted all of the other chapters. Every chapter felt that it had the right answer and all the other chapters were wrong. And that book is really dear to my heart because that's how my brain works. I spent a lot of time daydreaming and imagining and journaling about other ways that things could be. So here's my default. This is where I'm currently thinking, what else you got in there? What else could possibly be? And it really helps to keep pushing because sometimes the good idea doesn't come until your 13th idea, you know?
Paz Pisarski
Brad, I feel like we're going to have to start like a journaling challenge. If you want to post in the guidance channel in our Slack and get any other CC ins to journal for one hour a day for a month, let us know. We will be there ready to support you. But thank you for your question, Brad. I will see you later tomorrow, I'm sure. And we have a question here from Tenille. Tenille, where are you tuning in from and what's your question?
Tenille
Hi, Derek. And Paz, hi. I'm tuning in from Darwin, Larrakealand. And my question, I don't want to go into the context, but maybe it will be helpful. So if it is, let me know.
Tenille
I want to ask you what's a way of looking at an upcoming season, to quote Paz, that I know I have to do but I'm not absolutely in love with the choice. I just know it's the right thing to do. So is there a way of looking at saying yes to things that you don't love but knowing that they're time-bound that might be helpful in these sort of choices and situations?
Paz Pisarski
Great question.
Derek Sivers
Yeah, great question.
Tenille
I can give a little bit of context and let's just say that like we have elderly parents and they own a big farm and someone needs to go and do stuff on that farm. And to help the people live.
Derek Sivers
Oh, okay. So I'm really glad you actually gave that extra context because I was going to say, sorry, I'm just going to put aside all disclaimers about being morbid or offensive or whatever. So I was going to say, whenever I have something that needs to be done, I just put myself entirely in the future. I just imagine that future when it's all done and how nice that'll feel. This thing that needs to be done is done. The benefits I'll get. I just, I think of it metaphorically as you're walking on a rocky path and you just keep your eyes on the horizon. Instead of looking down at the rocks going, rocks. Rocks, logs, sticks. You just keep your eyes on the horizon and your knees just naturally lift over the boulders in your way. Just keep looking at the distance.
Tenille
I think that's a lovely way.
Derek Sivers
But I mean, when you gave that extra context, I mean, it depends. I don't know if you're, so sorry. I wasn't, I guess I did accidentally assume that you're saying that these are like their final years and that you want to spend time with them.
Tenille
Well, potentially, but they're not my parents. So there is a little bit of section. So I'm the daughter-in -law of a farm property that's going through succession planning and things like that. And it will affect what I do for a living. And I've set myself up now to work remotely so that I can go live on the farm and work there. And like, again, it's just a very personal one. I don't want to like steal the show from other people with their community. It is my life right now. And it's looking at moving to a place that I'm not entirely happy about, but I know that it's the right choice for my boys and I love the fun.
Derek Sivers
See, there you go. If you know it's the right choice, then that's that. It's just, it's keeping your eyes on that distance. Honestly, as much as I love New Zealand, don't tell anybody this. I'm sick of it. I've been here for 13 years. I love this little country, but oh my god that's enough i would love to be anywhere else right now i spend so much time in my diary or even just time on youtube i'll just say like i'll search for a driving video i'll search for um i'll say driving istanbul or walking through uh you know pick an interesting place on earth it's cycling in shenzhen i'll just watch youtube videos for like 20 minutes of people cycling through Shenzhen, China, just going, I'd love to be there. I'd love to be anywhere else. I'm so sick of this place. But it's like, my boy's here and that's that. So, yeah, I just keep my mind on the future.
Tenille
Yeah. On the horizon. I'll email you about our horizon goals. How's that sound?
Paz Pisarski
Yay. Thank you. I love that.
Tenille
And thank you.
Paz Pisarski
You know, another reframe as well. I like to ask myself, what am I here to learn? And you have that almost like forced curiosity of like, I'm going to go through something challenging and what am I here to learn and grow from it in that sense as well.
Derek Sivers
So kind of like I said earlier, what's great about this? Another side of that is how can I take advantage of this? So it's like, yeah, I am stuck in New Zealand for a few more years. How can I take advantage of this? I wasn't intending to learn ocean swimming. Maybe I should learn ocean swimming now. this is a good place to learn camping survival skills I could do that I could make the best of the situation you know.
Paz Pisarski
Tenille's going to send us photos of learning how to start fire from scratch right amazing.
Tenille
I've already got big dream plans of setting up an Airbnb in the Hunter Valley so you know once that's done.
Paz Pisarski
Amazing amazing well thank you for your question Tenille we've got a bit of a time check. So CCNs, if you missed, Derek, we call our members CCNs, if you are wondering what the hell I was talking about. CCNs, if you missed it, we're going to hang on and just answer the rest of the final questions that we've got. We've got about six questions still to go. So if anyone has to leave on the dot, you can head off at quarter past and we will come to a question in the chat here from Jacinta. So Derek, Jay is also a parent and she says:
Paz Pisarski
I love that you've chosen to be a dad. And she is currently feeling like a people pleaser and that actually saying no can feel really uncomfortable and guilt can arise. She would love to ask: What do you say to yourself if guilt arises? Or do you have any advice for Jay if she's feeling guilty after saying no to something that doesn't align?
Derek Sivers
Great question. I should have mentioned it earlier. When I said that people have told me that that was the best no that they've received, I've also had some people say, like, thank you for teaching me how to say no, that I think we overestimate our impact on others. To most people, you're not that big of a deal. Those people that you're saying no to, they're not going to be that upset. Most of them will go, oh, all right. It's like a huge trauma to you because, oh my God, I'm a bad person. I'm being selfish. I feel bad. I feel guilty. And you say, oh, I'm so sorry. I just can't do it. And they go, Oh, okay, that's fine. I asked somebody else too, and they said yes, so actually that's good. So I think not too highly of myself, and I think that by showing others that I've got my priorities, my values aligned, and that I'm sticking with what matters most to me, which means I'm going to have to say no to some things. I think that I'm being a bit of a role model, even to just random people I encounter that I'm going to have to say no to. That some people have got back to me saying that like that was kind of inspiring the fact that you said no to me. I should stay more focused on my own work, too, et cetera. So, yeah, I think it's just better for the world.
Paz Pisarski
People don't think about us as much as we think they do. And we are just like, you know, if you get a text from someone saying, I'm so sorry, I can't make your birthday party. You read the text and you go, oh, that's disappointing. All good. We stress on that. And, you know, something that's come up in my own life is, does this emotion serve me? And also acknowledge that those feelings are probably going to come up. I like to think of dominoes. So our emotions are dominoes. And you're always going to have the first domino fall over of that guilt. But what's helpful is if you then can place a book after that domino. So just one guilt domino falls down and then it stops and it's off you go. No worries. I felt guilty. Oof, that doesn't serve me. Off we go. But what's awful is when we don't have a book and you have guilt and guilt and guilt and we have this domino effect of this black hole spiraling and leads to anxiety and stress. And does that serve us? Does it serve the other person? So what is your book really to stop the rest of the dominoes falling down?
Derek Sivers
Something I was going to mention earlier but now I get to play into the literal metaphor a book called The Art of Selfishness it was written long ago believe it or not I found it on my grandmother's bookshelf when I was a teenager and it's a beautiful book on the moral importance of looking after yourself that everybody's got their own struggles to go through Everybody has to look after themselves. You need to look after yourself. And I'm oversimplifying the message. But if you're really interested in this, I have an article on my site. It's https://sive.rs/aos - Art of Selfishness, about the book. Or just go find the book. It's a good old book.
Paz Pisarski
I mean, I'm so curious, Derek, like how do you look after yourself? Is there anything that you specifically consciously commit to or do or make sure you've got to go to the gym?
Derek Sivers
I think the low information diet is number one. The unbreakable commitment to being with my kid. There's basically a routine that he and I have. So I spend about 30 to 40 hours a week with him. Minimum 30. 30 hours a week. Undivided attention. Devices off. Giving him my full attention. Doing whatever he wants for 30 hours a week. that's a pretty unbreakable date with us and has been for 13 years.
Paz Pisarski
Wow. I love that. And something else that I love is hearing from Manik, who has a question. So Manik, feel free to ask your question.
Manik
Sure. Thank you so much, Fais. And first of all, it's been an honor, Derek, to witness and hear you live. And I have a couple of topics on which I would love to shed you some light on so uh regarding i'm talking about my current situation and the things which i wanted to hear so:
Manik
How to realize our purpose in life and our true potential? Additionally if we find our purpose then uh how to stick to it? You are so calm when uh like i'm telling you what i want to but you are actively listening and after speaking you think like for four to five seconds. I can sense the calmness and happiness in you. You are continuously smiling in this call. So you have a positive energy and aura around you. So how we can make such kind of thing in ourselves?
Derek Sivers
Love it. Wow. Okay. Big questions. Purpose, the best thoughts I've seen on that subject were from a book by Cal Newport called So Good They Can't Ignore You. And his lesson in there is that passion and purpose are emotions that come after we are good at something, after you've developed some skill in something, And after the world starts rewarding you, giving you feedback on that, then we start to feel this feeling we call passion and purpose. Those emotions do not come first. They come later, after you've begun the work, after you've committed to doing the hard work of focusing on the craft of getting good at something. And he has so many wonderful examples. the most shocking one was that Steve Jobs was not passionate about computers. He was into yoga. But his friend Steve Wozniak said, hey, this computer store says that they'll buy 100 microcomputers if we can make them. I think I can make them. Can you help me go sell them? And he's like, okay, sure. He was not into computers or technology. It was the passion for him didn't come until years later after Apple started going well. OK, so that's passion. Oh, also, I think it's a harmful myth. This idea that we are supposed to be filled with passion about whatever we're doing. Like the story of Romeo and Juliet is a harmful myth. that love is supposed to be massive heartache, massive passion, massive emotions. And if it's anything less than that, well, then it's not really love. That's a harmful story because great relationships often happen in a very calm, comfortable way. So great relationships build slowly. They're not a lightning bolt of passionate love. And same thing with whatever you're pursuing in life. It's not a lightning bolt of passion and purpose for this career. So try to not even think that way. Instead, just focus on something you can be good at and work really hard to be great at it. And the feeling of passion and purpose will come later. And then how to stick with it. That's easy once the world starts giving you some feedback and saying thank you. Once people start saying, oh my God, thank you, that really helped me. It's very easy to stick with it once you're getting that kind of feedback. So try to put yourself as soon as possible onto the mastery path of getting great at something and of service to others so that you start to get that social feedback.
Paz Pisarski
How does that sit with you, Manik?
Manik
Nice. I got a new perspective, to be honest.
Manik
And regarding this, how you keep your energy high.
Derek Sivers
Sorry, I should have tied that all together, because it's related to everything I just said, is when you are making yourself proud, when you're doing good work and you know you're doing good work because it's pleasing you. You know, I write the books that I want to make. I don't care if anybody doesn't buy them. They make me so happy. This is the book I wanted to make. Kind of like any musician knows that feeling of you write a song that you just want that song to exist and you write it and oh, it's so good when it's done. It's such a nice feeling. You love that song. That's why you wrote that song. So I'm doing work that makes me really happy. So I'd be happy anyway even if nobody else liked it I'd be proud of myself it's more than the word happy it's like fulfillment it's a deep sense of gratification when you're doing something that you're proud of and then if the world also gives you good feedback it just multiplies it and makes it even more amazing so that's my situation that's why I seem so happy maybe or maybe it's just my DNA. I don't know.
Paz Pisarski
it's like the most meta example of this session is about hell yeah or no and we're asking derek like why did why was this a hell yes and it's about the purpose of feeling fulfilled and doing good work and being useful to the world and that's like what's happening right now in this moment but also in the ripple effects so manic i love the question and thank you so much for joining us live so good so potent the ccans are really bringing it today and we've got uh we've got three more so far.
Paz Pisarski
We've got one from
Paz Pisarski
Bex. Hey Bex over in, feel free to share where you're tuning in from and your one question.
Bex
I'm tuning in from Sweden but I am an Australian. In Gothenburg.
Derek Sivers
Is the restaurant called Andrum still there by the train station? I used to be married to a girl from Gothenburg. I spent years going to Gothenburg for Christmas. So luckily you're there during a good season now, but man, those winters are rough.
Bex
It wasn't last winter, actually. It was pretty mild overall, not very much snow at all. Okay. But change of topic, sorry, drifting off, general chatting.
Bex
So I feel like you are very deliberate with your choices and your life, and I have made a habit of throwing myself outside of my comfort zone time and time again, which is one of the reasons I've ended up on the other side of the world. I was going to ask if you have a like long time habit that you carry through through all your different seasons and choices but I think maybe that's been answered a little bit so I was going to swerve and say I have a 12 year old daughter if you could give a piece of advice to your 13 year old son that you would want him to carry through into the future for his own choices what would it be?
Derek Sivers
Well I already revealed one whatever scares you go do it because then it won't scare you anymore that to me is so important that when he was two or three years old and I was singing him lullabies at night I would sing Beatles songs or whatever I thought you know I want this message to get into his subconscious. So I ended up making a lullaby out of "whatever scares you, go do it. Whatever scares you, go do it." And it's a nightly lullaby I sing to him still sometimes. And the idea was to get that into his soul, to get that into his subconscious so that later in life as a teenager 20s he will catch himself being scared of something and go "I need to do this!" So that was a big one for me. But the real question is to ask yourself - I mean anybody listening especially with kids - ask yourself that same question like what is your most important value that you think is really necessary for your kid? Or would really benefit your kid's life if they kept this nutshell of an idea in their pocket at all times? Then try to find a way to say it over and over and over and over and over again until it's really part of their neuro-synapses.
Bex
yeah thank you i have a similar philosophy with my own child so yeah it's kind of nice to have it reconfirmed cool and thank you for the cc it's been awesome thank you
Paz Pisarski
so glad love that bex our international ccn and we have a question here from tendo also tuning in on the other side of the world how you going tendo what's your question um
Tendo
I'm Tendo. I'm in Newark NJ. I have a question for you. After making a really bold decision, as far as a career pivot, I found myself in a land of scarcity as far as opportunities. And so I opened myself to a season of yes. And that did result in various opportunities, appearing, not all of them are fruitful, but some of them led to sort of like the real deal. And now, alas, I am feeling overwhelmed and overextended because I afforded myself that sort of leeway. And so I'm wondering if you have any words of advice, because it's not just me, but a lot of people come from a land of scarcity. And so what words of wisdom do you have to offer to just give us the confidence that this, you know, this, you know, if it's not fuck, yeah, just don't do it when at the same time we can be just preoccupied by just a desert season.
Derek Sivers
Yeah. Okay. I'm so glad you brought this up. Number one, I think you did the right thing. I think you already did exactly what I would have recommended, which is to not use hell yeah or no for everything, but instead, and there is even like a chapter of this somewhere in the book that It says it's so helpful to switch strategies. So for many, many, many situations in life, the yes strategy is way better. Just say yes to everything. It's like lottery tickets. The more you have, the better. The more you can get, the more likely you are to win. And so it's like that with opportunities, especially in a place like Newark, in the New York City area. There's so much going on around there. You can spread yourself really wide because you never know where opportunity might find you. It can be in a really surprising area.
Derek Sivers
So I should maybe mention, I mean, you've got me in my New York state of mind. I lived in New York City for 10 years. I ran a recording studio unsuccessfully for years. I ran a booking agency unsuccessfully for years. I was a freelance musician with very minor success. I was a touring musician. I was in a circus. I produced people's records. I played on people's records. I did a bunch of stuff that didn't actually work out very well. And then this stupid little record store thing that I did on the side, or I should say the stupid little thing I built just to sell my CD on my website is the thing that took off. The least likely thing of everything else I was doing, that's the thing that took off? I never would have expected that. And it was only because I was spread quite thin. And I did have many years of really like hand to mouth $400 in the bank, trying to get it up to 800 so I can pay next month's rent. I lived that way for many years, just saying yes to everything I could as a hustling, self-promoting musician in New York City. And I think it was the right strategy because you never know where that opportunity is going to fall. And even my other musician friends in New York City at the time were doing the same thing. You say yes to everything. And then suddenly one of the many gigs you say yes to is Madonna's going on tour. And suddenly you have a big money gig for 10 years to come. Things like that. So I don't know your exact situation, but I think that, yeah, there are times when you're spread very thin, but that is the right strategy to find where that opportunity comes. And then you just need to be sensitive to when something is starting to pay off, starting to reward you. That's when it can be a really smart strategy to then double down on that thing. Let go of all the rest, even if it means canceling commitments, things you said yes to before. "Hey, sorry, I've got to throw myself into this one thing. So sorry."
Tendo
Awesome. Thank you. That is quite helpful. Thank you. Cool.
Paz Pisarski
So many different, I love throwing back to the New York era, all of the different times, lived everywhere. And Mike, you are our lucky last question. Oh, second last question. And I'm also getting kicked out of a meeting room. So let me throw to you, Mike, you ask a question. I'm going to migrate and I'll come back.
Mike
Thanks, Paz.
Derek Sivers
Actually, just in case before you begin, in case we get cut off, if anybody else had a question you didn't get to ask, just email me. I'm happy to answer everything, even if it pops into your head tomorrow. Just email me.
Mike
Firstly, just a really quick thank you. I actually remember listening to your very first episode you did with Tim Ferriss like years and years ago. And I was very quite young. And I remember it being a really formative kind of conversation for me to listen to. So I just wanted to thank you for that one. It's funny. I just went and looked up, looked for it to see what that was about. And it's so funny. The first two words were developing confidence. That was part of what the episode was about. And I'm so glad that Tendo just asked the question she did because it led really well into the question that I had.
Mike
Have you ever had a period in your life, like I'm guessing there could have been in that stint in New York City where your confidence just really got shattered? And what did you, I think I'm gonna have to go back and listen to that episode again, but it's like very specific to work. I feel very comfortable in who I am in so many other elements of life, but just particular failures and things have kind of like really rattled my sense of like a career and work self. And I was just curious, has that ever happened to you? And from your experience, like what did you do or what comes to mind of like how to work through that?
Derek Sivers
I'm going to sound like one of those stupid thought leader TED speakers. Because what I'm going to say next rhymes, but I don't mean it to. It's that we don't need confidence. We need evidence. You just have to find some contrary evidence that goes against your limiting beliefs. Even if it's just a tiny little scrap. Last night I was meeting with a friend here in Wellington. She was asking about me doing podcasts. And I said, one of the challenges for me is when somebody asks a question where my first impulse is, oh, I can't say that. And I catch myself feeling that. I'm like, all right, I'm going to challenge myself to say that thing that I think I can't say. So you've set me up for my next one. My first one of the day, which is. Yeah, my main insecurity or lack of confidence was actually like physical attractiveness that. Twice in a row, two long relationships were like six years long each. both of them were generally just not attracted to me even though we were in this wonderful long relationship it was like it gave me the not feeling but it felt like it was just a fact it felt like it was just a fact i'm just not attractive uh women are not attracted to me that's just a fact yeah uh and i just held that as an indisputable fact not as an opinion for years and years and years. And it wasn't until I was, God, like 37, broke up with the ex from Gothenburg, Sweden, and started dating. And the first woman I dated was so hot, and she thought I was so hot. I was like, wait, you think I'm hot? You think I'm hot? Whoa! That's all I needed was that little bit of contrary evidence to support the confidence. You can't just... I mean, you can try to manufacture it out of thin air. You could do the fake it till you make it. I actually prefer Kurt Vonnegut's version, which is you are whatever you pretend to be. So if you just pretend to be confident, sometimes it can become self-fulfilling. Well, that gets into psychology because then sometimes acting a certain way makes people treat you as if that's the reality because we live in social worlds. Okay. Anyway, sorry, back to the real point is I think instead of asking how can I find confidence, just try to find a little bit of evidence that supports the belief.
Paz Pisarski
What a beautiful line to come back to. I love this question, Mike. So potent. And we have one last question, Derek. This is the lucky last one, which we have Sarah here.
Sarah
Hey, Derek. I'm in the States, in Boston. But by way of New York City for almost a decade.
Derek Sivers
Wait, sorry, just indulge me for one second. What neighborhood in Boston are you in?
Sarah
I am in Somerville.
Derek Sivers
All right. My old favorite music teacher was in Somerville. I lived in Back Bay and I would go over the bridge to Somerville. Okay, anyway, sorry.
Sarah
Yeah, this has been really fun. I feel like I've laughed a lot.
Sarah
And my question for you is what a hell yes looks like for you in this season?
Derek Sivers
Ooh, you really want to know? Okay. Once again I'm hesitant to say this which is a fun sign to challenge myself to say it. OK. Last week I made a huge decision that was like an absolute hell yeah such a hell yeah I'm laying the foundation for the next stage of my life so I've already told you my situation that I'm a full time dad here in New Zealand and I'm committed to being here as long as he needs me to be here. There's a chance he may go to boarding school next year. He also wants to get out of here. If it doesn't happen, then I'm here for five more years. If it does happen, I'm here for another one year and four months. So I'm laying the groundwork for the next chapter of my life. The hell yeah to me was I've been to China three times in the last year. It is so, so, so nice there and so interesting and so exciting that I found a way to get a resident visa. And it's such a hell yes. You can incorporate a company in China. It's called WFOE, Wholly Foreign Owned Enterprise. A foreigner can incorporate a company in China. The actual government fees are only like 100 bucks, but it costs about a thousand US dollars per year to pay a local expert to be your handler that will file all your quarterly taxes. It will do the incorporation, take care of everything. open the bank account for you everything all included $1,000 a year and what you get in return then is you can sponsor yourself for a resident visa your business can invite you to go live in China so I just last week uh came up with a Chinese name for myself and incorporated a company that is basically Shanghai, that name, Consulting Limited. I started that last week. And that was a huge hell yeah, which means I'm setting the stage for living in China in the future, which is super exciting to me.
Sarah
Very cool.
Derek Sivers
Sorry, that's a weird example. But I was just so psyched about that. you know that thing like daydreaming about it morning and night can't sleep at night or it's like the first thing you think in the morning where you're just excited about something you're daydreaming about it so that's what a hell yeah looks like to me.
Sarah
No more youtube videos, because you're not going to be like on YouTube watching people like do the thing. It's like you're going to get the driving.
Derek Sivers
So if you mean it in that sense of like, I won't need to watch daydreaming videos of being there because I'll be there. Is that how you meant it?
Sarah
That is how I meant it.
Derek Sivers
That's more beautiful than talking about the firewall. Thank you.
Paz Pisarski
The information low diet living in China is very helpful. We have one more question from Abby. If we have some time, Derek, Hello, Abby. Abby, how are we going?
Abby
Hi, Derek. This has been just illuminating. I've got like a whole list of notes and even like a big piece of paper. Does this make me happy leading into the growth over safety? So I just, yeah, I've taken away so much. This is actually totally kind of off topic, but it was just around the renouncing of your U.S. citizenship. So I was born in the U.S. raised in New Zealand actually and I'm now in Gadigal country in Sydney up in Australia. I have a son who was born a year ago and I'm thinking about renouncing my U.S. citizenship. I was just wondering, did you set up your son with U.S. citizenship before you did that?
Derek Sivers
Yeah, okay, so I didn't want my boy to be a U.S. citizen but the government told us that if you are a U.S. citizen when your child is born, your child is a U.S. citizen. It's already done. Your kid is a U.S. citizen. Whether you filed the papers or not, your kid is a U.S. citizen already. But the bigger question is, I mean, the bigger point is, a beautiful idea that I heard from Kevin Kelly says the best option is the one that gives you the most options. And I really like that, that in hindsight, I didn't need to renounce my U.S. citizenship, and maybe I shouldn't have. It wasn't for taxes. I was just trying to force myself to not return to the only comfort zone I knew. The U.S. was such a comfort zone to me, and I was trying to make myself stay outside of it without retreating. So I burned the ships to prevent myself from going back. That's the only reason I did it. It actually made my taxes go up, not down. So most people aren't in that situation. I think most people, for most people, the more passports you have, the better. The more options it gives you. Who knows what's going to happen in your kid's lifetime? It's going to be a crazy hundred years. The more options our kids have, the better.
Abby
Yeah, I agree. I think the greatest thing my parents did was give me a New Zealand passport and a US passport. It's opened up the world to me and it's something that I want to make sure that he has that opportunity. So if he ends up having a passport to open that up as well. So thank you that it answers that question.
Paz Pisarski
I love that. We ended on nuts and bolts. I know, I know. I just got my Polish passport in the mail, so I'm very grateful.
Derek Sivers
Oh, I tried three times to get an EU passport. I actually lived in Belgium for for a few years. I lived in Portugal for a few years. I started my Portugal residency in 2014. All of it was to get my kid in a EU passport. You have to live in Portugal for six years and visit like two weeks every year or something like that in order to get citizenship. And do the math, 2014, when was I eligible for citizenship? 2020, when all the borders were shut. And yes, I could have flown there one way to apply for citizenship, but then I wouldn't have been able to return to New Zealand for six months, it wasn't worth it. So you can put your sound effects on again. I lost my chance for EU citizenship.
Paz Pisarski
Wow. Well, we're going to end on that note. Abby, thank you for that beautiful question at the end. Derek, I can't even begin to just say how grateful we are, one, for having you here that this was a hell yes two for just staying on on extended time with still so many people here live.