Ike Inspiration
host: Ike Okwerekwu
Fun conversation about Useful Not True as applied to religion!
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Transcript:
Ike Okwerekwu
What's up everybody? This is the Ike Inspirations podcast and today I have an incredible guest named Derek Sivers who I'm honored to have on. Derek Sivers is a father, a creator, and a free thinker. And he is the author of the book, Hell Yeah or No and Useful Not True, which are two books that I've read that had a great impact on my life. So I'm incredibly excited to have him on.
Ike Okwerekwu
I'd love to start the conversation with an interesting quote. So, Derek, this quote I have is by Rumi. And you probably heard of it, but it's essentially, "Yesterday I was clever, so I wanted to change the world. Today I am wise, so I'm changing myself." What are your thoughts on that quote?
Derek Sivers
Yeah, you know I can relate.
Derek Sivers
Somebody was asking me what I think of as home or what feels like home to me. And I said home is the place with no obstacles where if there's nothing in between me and my thriving and flourishing, then it feels like home.
Derek Sivers
And then my friend said, "Well, then why do you want to live in India, which is a place that's so full of obstacles?" And I said, "Because I want to adjust myself until those obstacles are no longer obstacles for me!"
Derek Sivers
Imagine living in a place with so many daily obstacles but finding a way inside yourself to be okay with it, so that those things are no longer an obstacle to your flourishing or happiness. Wouldn't that be a master challenge?
Ike Okwerekwu
Yeah. That would be awesome. You know, my favorite thing about you, Derek, is I feel I feel like you are an entrepreneur who doesn't care about money, which doesn't really go aligned. And I feel like when I read about your stuff or watch your work on podcasts, I feel like you're optimizing for life and you're not necessarily optimizing for money. And I really appreciate that 'cause I feel like, especially in America where I am at, that we don't have enough conversations about how to optimize and create a lifestyle truly for you. And I feel like that's what you do for yourself even write about.
Derek Sivers
Imagine that there's like a pie chart divided into six equal sections or something like that and each of the sections is an aspect of your life. So one section is money, one section is health, one section is the your number of friends, another section is maybe your career path. The amount is how fulfilled you are in each of these aspects of your life.
Derek Sivers
So some people have great health. They're incredibly fit, but they don't have enough money.
Derek Sivers
And somebody might have tons of friends and have such a fulfilling social life, but their career is not where they want it to be.
Derek Sivers
So in my case, I didn't used to have money, but then I got really lucky when I started my company called CD baby, which I just started with $500. It was just me, but the timing was right and it took off. Then through really no fault of my own It got really successful. So suddenly if you think of those pie charts again, well then my financial section of my pie chart was just off the charts. It was completely full it was overflowing. And that's why I instead just work on the other aspects of my life, because that one is satisfied.
Derek Sivers
But it doesn't mean that I think that we should all ignore money. No, it's just up to everybody's personal situation. If you need more money to be happy, well then yeah, go focus on money. But you should also notice when you've got enough. So if you get to that lucky situation that you've got enough, it's a good time to stop focusing on the money and focus on other things.
Derek Sivers
That's was what I was telling Andrew Wilkinson when he came to visit. And that's how you emailed me the first time after reading Andrew Wilkinson's book called Never Enough.
Derek Sivers
And that's what surprised me about some of my friends that are super hundred millionaires, is they get tons of money and then they're still focused on the money. I'm the one saying, "Dude, quit it! Stop it! You've already won that game! Quit playing that game!" It's like a board game. It's like "You've played Monopoly. You won Monopoly! So quit. Go play a different game. Go play tennis. Just stop it."
Derek Sivers
So I just want to be clear that just because I'm not focused on money, I'm not trying to tell other people that they shouldn't be focused on money. It all just depends on your own situation.
Ike Okwerekwu
Yeah. I read the book Never Enough by Andrew Wilkinson and I was just fascinated, one, by his lifestyle, but also his relationship to you and how you impacted his life. Because I never read a book from a billionaire and what that life was like. And he was the first person who gave the perspective of, it's really not as good as you think it is. And then how he got that confirmed by you also added to that confirmation and had a deep impact on my life because I'm nowhere near a millionaire, although I would like to be, but I make six figures. I'm a pharmacist and I have a very comfortable living. But I also sometimes have that ambition to be like, I need to make more, like, you know, but it's like, for what? You know what? And reading books like Useful Not True, Hell Yeah, or No, make me really reflect on why am I so like, attached to being a millionaire? What does that even mean? It's such a like, arbitrary number. What do I really care? Why do I really care? But I'm not gonna lie, I still been having that desire, you know?
Derek Sivers
It's funny, um, how tall are you?
Ike Okwerekwu
5'9"
Derek Sivers
Okay, same here.
Derek Sivers
I've heard some Europeans teasing Americans for the dating apps' obsession with guys being 6 feet. They said, "You're realizing that you're talking about 180 centimeters. And for us, it's really funny that you guys are all focused on this number 180, which to us is a meaningless number. We're not obsessed with people being 2 meters tall, but we're also not obsessed with like 175 or 180."
Derek Sivers
So it's funny how people get hooked on arbitrary round numbers. 1 million US dollars, which of course 1 million Chinese yen is nothing. 1 million rupees is not a magical number. Same thing as like 180 centimeters or like, you know, 100 centimeters, 200 centimeters is not a thing to focus on. Yeah, it's good to remind yourself that this number that might mean a lot to you is just stupid and arbitrary and you might want to convert it into a different currency and focus on that instead.
Ike Okwerekwu
Well, you grew up in an American culture where that's the dominant mentality and that's incredibly celebrated. I know other parts of the country, like it's not as big of a deal. I'm curious, how did you naturally have that perspective to not really care about that so much? Because you know I don't know yeah it always seemed like it came natural to you?
Derek Sivers
It's a big change that happened when I sold my company. From the age of 14 until 29 I was single-focused I wanted one thing only in life and that was to be a successful musician. That's all I cared about. I didn't read books. I didn't do anything. I was just completely focused on my music. And then at 29 I accidentally started this company called CD Baby. And it instantly fascinated me. So for the next 10 years, again, single focus, all I wanted to do was that company. I did nothing else. I didn't do any music. I didn't travel. I did read books, but only in a way that I thought they could benefit me with my company.
Derek Sivers
But then when I was 38 I sold that company and I was so used to being single focused but now I had nothing to focus on. And my first reaction was literally the next day after selling my company, the next day I set up my next company. I started focusing on it for a months and I had to catch myself going "Wait hold on what am I doing? I want to live a full life! And to live a full life means I need to try different approaches to life!"
Derek Sivers
So I deliberately challenged myself to change the way I see the world you look at things from another point of view. I started spending a lot of time in my journal questioning, saying, "Well, what's the point of this? What's the point of that? What's another way of seeing this? What's another way of seeing that? How else could I be thinking of this?"
Derek Sivers
There's a talk, if anybody listening to this is interested in this subject, I did a little TED talk at the original TED conference back in 2010 called "Weird or Just Different". That's what they called it. And it's about how I found a couple beautiful examples....
Derek Sivers
Wait, you're from Nigeria! I have to give this example. Fela Kuti. Fela Anikulapo Kuti. So I used to be in an Afropop band that would play Fela Kuti songs. And the band leader explained to me that the reason that the rhythms feel a little different is in West African music, the one, like if you're counting 1-2-3-4, 1-2-3-4, he said, we're used to one being the start of the phrase. He said if you listen closely in the phrasing of West African music, the one is actually the end of the musical phrase. So it's more like, 2-3-4-1, 2-3-4-1. And once he explained that I realized that the way that Fela Kuti would record albums was different than all the other musicians. So all the musicians I know would go record an album first and then they would go on tour for a year playing the music from that album. And what Fela Kuti did is he would go on tour first performing new music, developing it on the road. And when the tour was done, they would go into the studio to record the music they had been playing on tour for the last year. And I thought, "Wow, 2-3-4-1!"
Derek Sivers
Okay, so here's Here's another example. In the Auckland New Zealand airport, there's a picture of the map of the world with Australia and New Zealand on top and Canada and Russia on the bottom. And you look at it and you realize, yeah, that's also perfectly valid. We live on a sphere. Why is it that we always put Canada and Russia at the top and Australia and Chile at the bottom? It works just as well the other way around. And so looking at that map is a wonderful way to remind yourself that the opposite can also be true.
Derek Sivers
And then in Japan, I found out that the streets don't have names. The blocks have names. So that became a nice metaphor for the fact that, like, in most of the world, if if you ask somebody what's the name of that block, they'll say, "I don't understand your question. There's Maple Street, there's Peach Avenue, that's the space in between Maple and Peach." Whereas in Japan, it's like, "Well, there's Block 13, there's Block 14." The streets are just the empty unnamed spaces in between the named numbered blocks.
Derek Sivers
And so, all right, is sorry this is the end of a long rant but it started making me realize it how many ways in life we may look at something one way because we're just used to looking at it that way yeah but the opposite way of seeing it also works you just have to challenge yourself to let go of your initial perception and find another.
Ike Okwerekwu
It reminds me of the quote "Nothing is good or bad just thinking makes it so."
Derek Sivers
Yes, another perfect example! Emotionally, somebody dumped you. You can be sad about it or you could say, "Wow, that's a good thing because I probably should have done it too and instead she did it so lucky me. Now I don't have to ever wonder if I made the wrong choice because she made it for us." Anything that happens to you emotionally in life.
Derek Sivers
I mean, what you've done with sickle cell disease. How many people might you be helping with your situation instead of bemoaning it? Yeah, you're the walking, talking example of this.
Ike Okwerekwu
Yeah, man. I've had so many existential doubts about my sickle cell because sickle cell has, I was younger has brought me so much pain, almost to the point where I almost died from it. I had acute chest syndrome, I had pneumonia, and aside from that, I had incredible crises that would literally, women would describe the pain worse than childbearing birth. That's how bad the pain would be, and I would have those on like a monthly basis. So it really took a toll on my health, and it wasn't until I got older that I started to get healthier, I used to question my purpose on life, like why am I here? Why did God give me such a terrible disease? Because I wouldn't wish it on anybody. But looking back on it, I am grateful for my experience because it makes me grateful for when I am healthy. And I think I take my health a lot more seriously than other people. So simply being healthy just makes me happy. Because I'm not in pain, like I was always in pain like 24/7. And so I feel like my threshold for being joyful and cheerful is a lot lower than most people because I went through so much pain simply because I'm alive and healthy.
Ike Okwerekwu
So, I mean, as you were talking, your example with Fela Kuti, I was also thinking of the, I heard you share a Frank Ocean story about, I forgot exactly how the story went, but it was essentially someone asking him like, "Hey man, why do you only create albums like every four or five years?
Ike Okwerekwu
Like, you know, don't you feel the pressure to like keep creating or making money?" And I remember you said, "Oh, it's simple. You just don't have to care about not making money." You know, I thought that was also very like profound. A lot of us are just in this obsessive rat race of just chasing money and and it doesn't even do much for us. Most of the people I've had on this podcast they're actually very successful including you but the interesting part is despite how much money they make I've noticed they don't get that excited talking about their business and then I would have to kind of change it towards a different conversation to make them more engaged. It's interesting to me, but yet we're still kind of obsessed with it, you know I know it's a very interesting thing to me.
Derek Sivers
My favorite quote on this says "Money is just like sex When you don't have enough that you can't think of anything else once you have enough you do."
Ike Okwerekwu
That's a funny quote, but I love it man. So, you know, I remember earlier in this conversation you were talking about how there are different ways that you look outside of money. Like, you know, you've mentioned friendship, relationships. For me personally, as you were speaking, reminded me of how I balanced my life on my calendar. I have five things: wealth, spirituality, friendships, health, and experiences. Those are the things that I look into. And I'm curious for you: How do you balance all those things?
Derek Sivers
I don't! Sorry. I'm a very imbalanced person And and that's okay. It's actually it's nice to remind yourself that imbalance can also be a choice.
Derek Sivers
A quote that I wrote on my old music notebook: When I was a full-time musician and like every day I was in the in the practice room just practicing my scales, my arpeggios, and practicing singing and writing, I had a notebook that I took with me everywhere. And on the cover I wrote in a thick permanent sharpie, "Find what you love and let it kill you."
Derek Sivers
I have lived a wonderfully imbalanced life. I dive deep into one thing and I'll do it for 16 hours a day. I'll forget to eat. I won't sleep. My house is a mess. But I'm thriving on that one thing. And that makes me happy.
Derek Sivers
It's not always imbalance. In fact, sometimes I consider it a slow balance, meaning I might obsess on one thing for 10 years, then spend a couple years doing the opposite. So it could be a slow balance. It's made me very happy to live a very unbalanced life.
Ike Okwerekwu
Interesting, interesting. And so for you, that's your specific truth. And I guess it's not universal for everybody, but that's your own perspective that serves you. And talking about what's useful and not true, that actually kind of goes into your book: I really found your concept of that book extremely useful.
Ike Okwerekwu
I really wanted to talk about the process of writing Useful Not True. What did that look like for you? Why did you feel the need to create such a book for yourself?
Derek Sivers
It was a really fun idea to start with. I've noticed that underneath my approach to life, I choose beliefs because they create the actions I want. I will choose to believe that all people are good because it makes me feel more generous. I'll choose to believe that this room full of strangers are potential friends because that makes me more friendly. So every now and then somebody would push back on a belief that I've chosen, saying, "Hey, Derek, that's not necessarily true." I'd say, "I never said it was true, but it's useful." And after describing this to people a couple times, I thought, "This is an interesting idea. Maybe I should dive into it more."
Derek Sivers
This is my fifth book, and every other book has been something where I already knew what I wanted to say and it was just a matter of getting the words out nicely. This book, I didn't know what I wanted to say. I just thought it was an interesting idea to go learn more about. So Ike, I spent two years learning more about this. I contacted a philosophy professor and I tried to describe this to her and she said, "It sounds like what you're talking about is pragmatism. So go read these books about pragmatism." So I read those books and then three more. I think I read a total of eight books about the philosophy called pragmatism. And I thought, "That isn't quite it. I think I'm talking about skepticism." I looked into skepticism. I looked into nihilism. And then I thought, "You know, a big part of beliefs is religion. And I know nothing about religion. So I read the Bible cover to cover every single page. It took five months, but I read the entire Bible carefully, including watching a bunch of videos. What is it called?
Ike Okwerekwu
Bible Project.
Derek Sivers
Bible Project. They're so good.
Ike Okwerekwu
This is crazy. I'm sorry. I'm doing the same thing! Sorry. I'm literally doing the same thing as we're speaking. I read a Bible book and then I'll read the Bible project and then go on and do the same thing. And I'm sorry, I'm just getting excited because literally, your book, the biggest impact "Useful Not True" has had on my life is actually my relationship with God. I don't want to say I've never, but there was a point where I didn't believe in God, I've always have. But my relationship of God is a lot stronger than it is, and I believe your book played a role in it, because the concept of useful not true, I felt like I used to do a lot of things in the concept of having to know if it's true or not. But I felt like once I let go of being right, and actually just said, "Is this serving me?" In my belief, my personal relationship of God is serving me because it gave me a community of Christians to believe in. It's given me a spirit of kindness, fruitfulness, and it gives me purpose. It gives me another reason to wake up. So I'm going to be honest, I don't know if God is true or not. We could be delusional, but I believe it. But I feel like your book has helped me reinforce that even if I don't know if God is true or not, it's useful. Therefore, I'm going to keep I'm pursuing that faith.
Derek Sivers
I love that. That's so cool to hear. Yeah, so thank you.
Derek Sivers
That was a giant profound insight for me as I was learning more about this. Reconciling the problem of how a quarter of the world can have this belief and feel that this belief is absolutely true. But it's at odds with something that another quarter of the world believes and is convinced that their thing is completely true. So let's say all of the Christians in the world, all of the Hindus in the world, all of the Muslims in the world, and all of the atheists in the world, and just, I know there are other groups, but let's just take those as like four of the biggest, that those are completely at odds with each other! And there are over a billion Hindus that are convinced that their beliefs are true. And maybe they are! But if that's true, then that means that all of the Christian and Muslim beliefs are not true. And it means that all of the atheists are not true, although they're convinced that they're true. And so I thought, how do we reconcile this looking at the whole world?
Derek Sivers
And that's when it felt like a giant epiphany that no beliefs are true if we define the word "true" as "necessarily, absolutely, objectively true for everyone, everywhere, always." And if it doesn't pass that test, it doesn't mean it's false. It just means it's not necessarily true for everyone, everywhere, always. And it's a beautiful way to make that word true so narrowly defined that we can let go of it short of concrete physical things you can hold in your hand or whatever. But then if it's not necessarily true, it helps you see it from another point of view or helps you just ask the better question, which is what you're saying is, "How does this serve me?" If I believe this, how does that affect my actions?
Derek Sivers
Ultimately, actions are true. When you do something, you are actually doing that thing. Nobody can deny that. It can be recorded, it can be observed. An alien in space or an octopus in the water can look at you doing that thing and agree that you're doing it. That's actually true. So what goes on in our heads doesn't really matter that much. It's only there for the purpose of affecting our actions, which is the true thing.
Ike Okwerekwu
Yes. Yeah, I mean, and as one of the personal battles I used to have with following God, I used to just question everything. And what you said about all the major religions, you know, there's billions of Indians, you focusing on one religion and there's so many people focusing on different religions, I'm like, not all of them can be true, so I could possibly be wrong, one of them could possibly be wrong, and that really bothered me, because I'm like, what if I'm believing in something all for it to just be a facade? Like, that was pretty much like something that I kept thinking about when I was battling with my relationship with God. I'm like, is this really something like worth pushing myself through. But I feel like what ultimately helped me to be firm with my faith is I don't think there's no other better way to live. That's my personal belief. That being a Christian, being faithful, I think it gives you a really good way of living because I think faith is rooted in everything and I feel like if you whatever first step you take in life, faith is required. You know, if you're going into a relationship with a girlfriend, faith is required. If you're going to be a father, you have no hell what the hell you're doing. Like you'll be lying if you tell me, "Hey, I know how to be a father." I feel like anything that's new requires faith. And so I feel like it's important that we live by faith and not by sight, because that's how life operates, in my opinion, anyway, anything, you know.
Derek Sivers
All right, so bringing this full circle to something you said earlier about, what was the Rumi quote? Do you still have it handy?
Ike Okwerekwu
Yeah, I have the Rumi quote. "Yesterday I was clever, so I wanted to change the world. Today I am wise, so I'm changing myself."
Derek Sivers
Okay. In the movie called Gandhi from the 80s: There's a scene that I don't know if it happened in real life. Maybe it did because it was supposed to be a true story but there was a scene where a Hindu man came to Gandhi, you know, there was a war in India between the Hindus and the Muslims and Gandhi was starving himself in protest of this war and I'm going to get the details wrong, but let's just say I'm going to say that this is how it happened is that a Hindu man came to Gandhi crying because he had killed a Muslim man and was feeling guilty about it. But he killed the man out of hatred. He hates Muslims and he found that the man that he killed has a baby boy. And he said how and I think his wife was gone too. And he said, "Gandhi, what should I do? I'm just wracked with guilt." And he said, "You should adopt that baby boy and raise him as a Muslim." And I was like, wow, that is, that's tough. Uh huh. That's tough. And because to raise, for a Hindu man, to raise a boy as a good Muslim would take so much opening of the heart. And understanding, because this would be his son that he loves.
Ike Okwerekwu
Well, in the book, in the Bible, the ultimate truth, in my opinion, is love yourself as you love your neighbor. And I feel like in that story, in order to really raise someone as a whole nother religion, that requires a huge amount of love, because a lot of sacrifice and willingness to learn a new religion, because you're probably not-- he's not Muslim himself. So you have to conform to that and understand what that is. I think that's a great quest of love.
Derek Sivers
Could you imagine taking a chapter in your life, like for two years, to move to Jeddah, Saudi Arabia, and live two years as a good Muslim in actions, even if your internal beliefs don't change, but in your outward actions to go live as a good Muslim for two years?
Ike Okwerekwu
Yeah.
Derek Sivers
It'd be an interesting, heart-opening project.
Ike Okwerekwu
Yeah, very. And it's interesting. And yeah, I imagine really taking that, I think that would require a lot of, again, a lot of faith and a lot of, yeah, I think, yeah, that would create a very interesting life. Have you ever played with different religions? Do you have a personal religion belief or that you stick to that serves you best? or where are you spiritually?
Derek Sivers
I was raised with nothing. My parents never mentioned it. And I really mean didn't mention it. My parents didn't say, "God is this and life is that." But they also didn't say that it's not that way. It just never came up. So I was 11 years old the first time I met somebody that believed in God. And at the time, because 11 is, you know, you've got a brain that's somewhat formed. I didn't know that anybody anywhere on earth believed in God. I thought it was like Spider-Man or the Easter bunny where we all know that this is just a story. And so I was 11 years old with my best friend. We were playing outside of Chicago where I grew up, and I hit my hand and said, "God damn it." And he said, "You took the Lord's name in vain." And so it just opened the subject. I said, "Wait, are you kidding or serious?" And he said, "Serious." And then he said, "At Sunday school, they told us if you don't believe in God, you're going to turn into a locust." And I said, "Turn into a locust? What size? This big? Am I going to shrink? How does that physically work?" And he said, "You can't joke about this stuff." And I said, "Wait, are you serious? You're not kidding, you're serious." And it took me so long to understand that.
Derek Sivers
But then there was a long time in my life where I believed everything. And I mean everything. You just tell me about, you know, not just every religion, but ghosts, I don't know, paranormal, talking to spirits, all of that stuff. I believed all of it.
Derek Sivers
And these days I'm more in the middle, but it was weird being raised with nothing. Almost everybody's raised with something. Their parents tell them, this is the way it is. And then later they have to change their beliefs. And it's a big struggle to go against what you've been told your whole life. So I feel that I was in a weird situation to be raised with no beliefs.
Ike Okwerekwu
That is a very peculiar situation because like you said, mine was the opposite of yours. I grew up in an African household, very traditional, very religious, they're very, you know, and I went to Nigerian church where they would have sermons for three hours and we would just be praising God like religiously and strongly and firmly. And I grew up believing in God. We would pray all the time and it became a foundation of who I was and it just was a part of me. And then I got baptized without really making it my own decision. So I just naturally grew up faithful. But then after college, once you become your own man, you start to question things. You start to really have that spiritual, own existential doubts. And I had to have my own battles.
Ike Okwerekwu
And it sounds like for you, did you ever have that yourself where you felt like you were battling different parts of yourself internally? Or did you ever feel the need to really pursue a religion? Do you feel like your lack of religion has changed the way you, your lack of religion growing up has changed the way you just view the world, you know?
Derek Sivers
Hmm, there's definitely no battle. I feel very reconciled with whatever my beliefs are, because maybe this idea that the actions are what really matters, maybe that idea has been underneath all along. Maybe ultimately I have some kind of American pragmatism that says, "Okay, well, so what? Okay, if this then what? If that's true then what? How's it going to change your actions? Are we just going to sit here and argue about I'm right and you're wrong?" Maybe that's always been underneath. To me, I still see all religions through this lens of affecting actions.
Derek Sivers
In the Bible itself, there's basically no mention of hell. If there's a mention, it's very, very small and ambiguous. But growing up in America, you hear about hell a lot. This kind of Baptist fire, brimstone, Like, this is what it's all about, is hell. You gotta do this and you must not steal to avoid hell. And you must be kind to avoid hell. And that was one of the biggest surprises for me reading the Bible. Where's this hell I've read or heard all about? It's not in here. And I found out that it was added later. People added it later when telling their stories, which when I understood that I thought, "Okay, because the point was to affect people's actions." It's like, "Stop stealing, stop stealing, stop stealing." People aren't stopping stealing. "Stop stealing or you will burn in hell for the rest of your life!" Ah, okay. That got people to stop stealing. And so if that's what it took to affect people's behavior, which is the ultimate point anyway, then we can understand more sympathetically where these stories come from.
Derek Sivers
And then the proof is in the pudding, which I should find out the origin of that silly phrase, where if you see how people are behaving, you can say, "Well, what recipe created that delicious pudding? What recipe created that good behavior? And let me look into that recipe if it's creating the behavior that we desire."
Derek Sivers
I just got back from two and a half weeks in China where if you look at day-to-day behavior, it's a very harmonious, congruent culture. People are very polite and life is good and there's not a big red versus blue, right versus left conflict going on. People are civil and kind and kind of see... there's a general feeling that we're all brothers, we're all one. And yet it's a very non-religious culture.
Derek Sivers
I feel the same thing about the Middle East in general. In general most Muslim cultures are very harmonious. And I really appreciate that about Islam as having like a very like top to bottom, this is the way, this is not a debate, this is the way approach to life and the harmony that that creates. I'm very interested in learning about what recipes create harmony.
Ike Okwerekwu
Yeah, that sense of community embodied in China has always been interesting to me.
Ike Okwerekwu
I've always been interested in the community aspect, in the cultural aspect of Asia, and their own internal beliefs and what serves them, because it seems a lot different than America. But one thing that has always struck me about that, and I'm curious to hear your thoughts on this is like I feel like and perhaps this is me projecting my own Americanism on to them but I feel like I sometimes I wonder does do this..
Ike Okwerekwu
Does that like sake of being community oriented and doing everything for the priority of your own community does it come at a cost of their own individual happiness?
Ike Okwerekwu
You know sometimes I wonder that because some I guess I haven't been in Asia to really, so my perspective, I don't know. But sometimes the Asians I meet here who I know are from that country, I feel like they don't, I don't know, maybe it's because they're in America, I feel like they don't speak up enough or they don't speak their truth and they often feel silenced. I've heard stories from that, but maybe them being in America has created that pressure where as opposed to China, I don't know. But do you understand what I'm saying? Do you? Oh yeah. I feel like there's an epidemic of depression going on, not just in America, globally. And I don't know, I feel like there's a lot of silent depressed people out there, you know?
Derek Sivers
When did you move to America?
Ike Okwerekwu
I moved to America when I was like four months old. So I was born in Nigeria. I'm basically Americanized.
Derek Sivers
Okay. Because I've heard Nigeria described as having more of a community -focused culture.
Ike Okwerekwu
It definitely is. Less individualist. Yeah, it definitely is.
Derek Sivers
So, this took me a while to get used to. So I also grew up a 1000% American. And it wasn't until I was 40 years old that I moved to Singapore. And I met with a lot of Singaporean people. I really internalized this as my new home. It wasn't like I'm here visiting. I moved there and became a legal permanent resident. My boy was born there. He became a legal permanent resident when he was a few months old. That meant that he was going to serve in the Singapore military in the year 2030. Like I really internalized this. This is my home. I'm living here from now on. So I wanted to get to know everybody in my new home. So I met with hundreds of Singaporeans one-on-one and had long conversations to get to know them. And it took me a full year to understand that my American individualistic approach to life was not right and they were not wrong. And it went like this.
Derek Sivers
I met so many people that would tell me that they used to do music or they used to write poetry but then their parents told them, "No, no, no. No music. You're going to go get a degree in law. You're going to go get a degree in business. You're going to go work for a multinational and earn good money." And the first 20 times I heard this, I said, "No, you're wrong! Don't give up your music! Don't stop writing poetry. No, you got to pursue this thing! You got to follow your thing. This is your thing. You got to go make your music."
Derek Sivers
And when you feel that everyone around you is wrong, it's helpful to question if perhaps you might be wrong. So eventually I realized that they are not wrong. That it's a different look at the world, it's doing what's best for your family, doing what's best for your neighborhood, doing what's best for your country, which might not always be you pursuing music.
Derek Sivers
It might be that you doing music on the side and getting a good degree so you can go make six figures and get a good job, that that's ultimately the better thing for your family and will ultimately make you happier, maybe in a more calm way, maybe not elated, like standing on stage with a thousand people in a club screaming for you, but more long-term happiness in a more solid way, that because from the age of 18 to 22 you went and got a valuable degree in pharmacy, for example, that you're going to live a happier, more solid life with less fear, less uncertainty because you've got this solid base. I know that that means it's at the expense of your poetry or your painting, but ultimately it's the better choice.
Derek Sivers
So this kind of thinking that I just described was so alien to me. It took me so long to get into it, but I eventually understood it. I internalized it. And now I can see that less individualism does not mean less happiness.
Ike Okwerekwu
I think that's, I think there's truth to what you're saying. And the reason why I believe that is although I was born in Nigeria and I moved for three months, I did go back in Nigeria. And by far, one of the most shocking things about Nigeria to me was just how much happier, in my opinion, the people from Nigeria were compared to the people in America. Because in America, we have so much more than them. And the convenience and the wealth afforded to us is a lot more in my opinion. I was in Nigeria and I was hanging out in the villages with my cousin and I love my cousin by the way, he's awesome, but he was like, I was pretty much just like talking to him, I'm like, bro, like, what do you do here all day? And he's like, bro, we just make jokes, bro. He's like, we just make jokes and talk to our family. And he's like, yeah, that's all we do. I was like, really, okay. It was just really mind boggling to me because I'm in America, where's a fast food restaurant, what are we doing? And they were just completely content with their environment. And I can't necessarily objectively measure happiness, but I always felt like I had a good indicator for who's happy and who's not. And I will definitely say that the people there were a lot happier than the people in America. And it was so interesting to me. So and they're definitely, like you said, like Asia, are more community-oriented than individually-oriented too.
Derek Sivers
It's interesting to notice that the people who study happiness directly will tell you that one of the most reliable indicators of happiness is how much you're giving. That They found that the pursuit of getting might create, let's say, happiness level X, but the pursuit of giving and generosity and even gifting to your friends or gifting to strangers creates like 10X happiness. It just makes people happier the more they give, not the more they get. Which then if you think in a sense of community, that makes sense. If what you're giving is to your parents, what you're giving is to your children, or what you're giving is to your neighbors, it might make you happier than an individual pursuit of gimme, gimme, gimme, mine, mine, mine.
Ike Okwerekwu
Yeah, and when we talk about the gift of giving, I love giving, I think it's so important, and it's something I think about a lot. I mean, the Bible says God loves a cheerful giver, and that Bible verse really rings in my head. And in Nigeria, people are a lot more family-oriented than people in America. People in America, they get divorced more, and I don't think they feel as ashamed. In my culture, if you get divorced or you-- everyone talks about it, you get shamed. Whether that's good or bad, they're a lot more likely to stay in it because they don't want to be embarrassed, and they really value marriage. But with that being said, that family-orientedness, I think, gives them more opportunities to give to each other. And I think that it goes to your point. It allows them to be a more cheerful giver, which I think is important for your well-being, like, you know, subconsciously. And I know part of being a family is-- I know you are a father yourself.
Ike Okwerekwu
And I'm just curious, like, since you became a father, how has fatherhood impacted you personally?
Derek Sivers
Hmm. Believe it or not, it didn't change that much. Most people I meet say it changed everything for them. But for 15 years before my boy was born, I was running this company that was my main thing in life. I gave everything to running this company and to my employees and to my clients and my customers. And my own personal happiness was secondary. What mattered most was the company and its people, let's say, employees, clients, customers. That was my top priority. Me, I don't matter so much.
Derek Sivers
Until the age of 28, everything was all about me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me. I was my life's focus. At the age of 28, that's when I started my company and made other people my top priority and I pushed my own needs to secondary. So then I was 42 when my boy was born. So I had already been living with myself as secondary for 14 years. So it didn't feel like a huge change for me. It was just a subtle change. And now this little boy that I love so much is my top priority. I'm second or even third priority behind his mother. And keeping him happy and safe, number one. Keeping her happy and safe, number two. And then I'm more like number three. For some people, for most people, that's a huge change in their life. To me, it wasn't a huge change.
Ike Okwerekwu
Yeah. Well, by the way, I appreciate your honesty, because I do feel like that question will make people feel the need to be like, oh, it's the biggest change in my life. And they have to-- and I appreciate that honesty. I was not expecting to hear that. But it's interesting. So for you, you felt like your energy spent and love for your company essentially transfused into your own son. And so it felt like a seamless transition that didn't really impact you deeply?
Derek Sivers
Well, to be fair there were four years in between when I sold my company, and four years later my boy was born. So it wasn't a direct transition but I had already been living that way for 14 years making others my top priority.
Ike Okwerekwu
Wow, that's interesting. I'm curious, as an aspiring father, because I aspire to be a father one day and I would love to have children because I just think it's an opportunity to continue giving. How have you feel like your life has changed since becoming a father? Do you, you know, what looks differently, you know, in terms of the way you live.
Derek Sivers
Honestly, it's not that different than if you've been in a romantic relationship where the other person is your top priority. So if you've ever been in a romantic relationship, we'll just use women as the example: So, like where, or some woman is your top priority, that if she says, "I'm not feeling good," you drop everything to take care of her. And if she says, "I really, really want to go out tonight," then you go out tonight. If she says, "I really just want to cuddle under a blanket and watch a movie with you," then that's what you do. If you've already been living that way, then having a kid is no different. It's just your kid saying this instead. Your kid says, "I want to go out and play right now." And you say, "Let's go out and play." And your kid says, "I just want to make a fort out of the couch cushions and crawl into it with you." You say, "Let's do that." It's not that big of a change. It's just fun stuff.
Derek Sivers
And honestly, having a kid is not that different from just being in love. If anybody ever tells you it's hard, It's only hard if you're trying to fit the clash of an adult life and a kid life together. If you're feeling that clash, like a round peg going into a square hole, that's a clash. But if you let go, if you're able to just make your kid your top priority and not try to fit your kid into your adult life schedule, then life's pretty easy.
Ike Okwerekwu
Yeah, so essentially, it's interesting. You essentially let go of everything and instead of trying to change him or place arbitrary expectations on him, you just let him be. And that creates a natural ease towards your parenting process. It sounds like.
Derek Sivers
How old are you now?
Ike Okwerekwu
29.
Derek Sivers
All right. It is not as hard as people make it to be. As long as you can save your money and make it so that when your kid's born, or maybe not born, but when your kid is like, say, two, three, four, five years old, that you're able to cut back on your work and just be super present for your kid. Especially once they start walking and talking, like age one. If you're able to just be super present so you can just spend hours and hours and hours every week, just giving your kid your full attention without some inner conflict of 12 hour work days, 6 days a week and all that. If you're able to just adjust your life, and there is a lovely time in between pregnancy and a baby actually being born, you have time to wrap things up and adjust your life. My tip for people planning on having kids is just save as much money as you can now so that when your kid is born you can just dip into your savings a bit and give your kid your full attention.
Ike Okwerekwu
I love it. There's a quote that says, "Save your money and your money will save you."
Derek Sivers
Good one!
Ike Okwerekwu
So yeah, being present sounds like it's the key for essentially being a good father for you.
Derek Sivers
That's my recipe, yeah.
Ike Okwerekwu
That's your recipe for you and that's awesome. And so, you know, another thing that you do that fascinates me, Derek, that I would like to embody more in my life is you do a lot of international traveling. You know, you mentioned you were in Singapore. You also mentioned you were in China.
Ike Okwerekwu
And I'm curious, first of all, where was your favorite place to travel and why?
Derek Sivers
I don't have a favorite, but let me just explain the goal again.
Derek Sivers
Travel can mean so many things to different people, right? Just like the word "music." The word "love." There's a big one. What does love mean to you? What the hell? How can I answer that question? Love is so many things.
Derek Sivers
So same with travel. For some people, travel means, "Ugh, my life is stressful. me to a beach where there's nothing to do but swim and drink." For me, I'm like an anthropologist where I'm trying to understand the world better.
Derek Sivers
Like the story I told earlier about moving to Singapore and having to understand that individualism is not the only way. Like my stories about religions and trying to understand that the Christian worldview is not the only way to get to know my Hindu friends and really try to understand the world from a Hindu point of view. And not just day-to-day actions but even just like how you see the whole world when you think that karma and reincarnation is absolutely true. And how does that change the way you see everything?
Derek Sivers
In order to understand the world better, I want to go inhabit to these philosophies. I want to go live inside a Hindu world and really, really ingest that and embody that and import it into my operating system. I really want to go live in a Muslim country and live as a Muslim for a long period of time to really obey all of the rules and surrender to that operating system and go live that way to not just read about it but to feel it, to live it, to be it. So that's why I travel.
Ike Okwerekwu
When I think about travel and I think about the quote "exposure leads to expansion" And I feel like when I travel, although it's mostly been domestic, like even that in itself has been just huge perspective changes, you know, from being up north where I grew up in Boston to being down south and noticing the changes there. And I've noticed for me personally, every time I travel, I experience so much growth, like just naturally because I feel like I'm just being in an environment and I'm forced to change for better or for worse. I'm living in a new apartment, I'm speaking to new communities, I'm doing a bunch of new things that I've never had. I have to find a new job, you know, and just make all these type of adjustments that force you to change. And I love it. I love it. And I want to put myself in more positions where I'm naturally forcing myself to change as a result of being in a new environment. And it sounds like you get that opportunity a lot. And it sounds like you take it even deeper. You are even exploring other religions, which is interesting.
Derek Sivers
America is a great place to start with that. I was born in California, grew up mostly in Chicago. I went to Boston for college and then I moved to New York City. Moved to Portland, Oregon for a couple of years, San Francisco, Los Angeles, which is oh my God, a culture clash between my Northeast, you know, New York, Boston kind of life and the LA beachy life. And it was just before I left America, I was feeling ready for another change and I almost moved to Mississippi because I was like, all right, where else can I see life from another point of view? I was like, Mississippi. I was like, I think I'm going to move to Mississippi. I've never lived down South. That would be an immersive, different way of seeing the world. And that's when I said, okay, wait, hold on. There's a big world out there. What am I doing talking about Mississippi? I mean, I'm still kind of interested to live in Mississippi, but come on, I've never lived in Asia. I've never lived in Europe. And so that's where I kind of unscrewed the lid off the jar of America and tried exploring out of it.
Derek Sivers
But let me just say that you don't have to move to China to see the world from a different point of view. You can even just move to a different corner of America that you haven't lived in before. Just try to appreciate life there and not feel that they're wrong.
Ike Okwerekwu
You know, the thing I love about you, Derek, is I feel like you are so fascinated by different perspectives in the world. And I'm the same way. Like, I love understanding people and their perspectives and why they do this, why they believe that, what's their internal sense of belief. And I feel like you have put yourself on a life journey to essentially understand other people more. And I guess through the understanding of other people, you feel like you understand yourself better.
Derek Sivers
I mean, yeah. You get to notice what works for you, but also you get to try on different ways of being. It's almost like clothing. I've never really dressed up as a cowboy. I've never really dressed up, I don't know, as a drag queen. Both of those things would feel so alien to me, but isn't that a reason to do them? To try this out, not saying that you're going to become this person, but just to know that you could, just to see what it does for you, even if it brings out a feeling of repulsion in you, then it makes you question that repulsion. Why am I repulsed by this? What is that in me that is repulsed and why?
Derek Sivers
For example, I'm still currently repulsed by, say, Burning Man. When I hear people go, "Oh man, we went to Burning Man, it was awesome." I have a sneer on my face, a sneer of judgment. Like, you druggy hedonist. What are you doing with your life? But then I have to catch myself. Why am I being so judgmental about it? Some smart, interesting people seem to really love it. Maybe there's something there that I need to open my closed mind to accept.
Derek Sivers
So it's interesting to notice whenever you've got a repulsion against something and try to steer into it. And like, instead of using that repulsion to avoid somewhere or something, use that repulsion to go into it to try to find out why. And discover it for yourself, instead of letting your pre-judgment sit there ignorantly.
Derek Sivers
So that's honestly why I went to China three times this past year. The first time was just because my boy, for his school holidays, said, "Dad, can we go to China?" I think he watched Kung Fu Panda or something and just wanted to go to China. So I thought, "Wow, you wanna go to China for your school holidays? All right." It's a little expensive to fly there, but once you're there, things are cheap. So I took him to China for just a few days for his school holidays. And, you know, like the two week Easter school holiday. And once I was there at his request, I was blown away with how nice everything is and how happy everyone is and how kind everyone is. And I was so blown away that I've been back twice more in the last four months just to try to understand it better. 'Cause it was definitely a huge closed subject to my life.
Ike Okwerekwu
By the way, I don't blame you on the whole Burning Man thing. I always kind of had a weird thing. I always thought like, to me, you feel like your spiritual superior, like, oh, I'm into Burning Man. I kind of got that same vibe, too. I don't know much. It could be awesome. I don't know. But I always got that same vibe when people mention Burning Man.
Ike Okwerekwu
But to your point about repulsion, I remember, yeah, you spoke about this. I think you spoke about this in your book. And the thing that I immediately thought of is I feel the same exact way-- the way you feel about China, I feel about that with Miami. I swear, every time people talk about Miami, I freaking get so repulsive about that culture because it seems like a life of indulgence and everyone is just chasing superficial wealth and cars. I don't know, this seems extremely superficial to me. But as I was reading it and I was reading your part, it made me really question, "Wait, why do I really rent a Miami?" I've never even been to Miami. I've never been to Miami. Well, I could know it could be the greatest thing and also I freaking hate the cold weather. So like if I me, you know Miami is At least I can enjoy the warm weather. So I'm actually considered just like you were going to China To explore your repulsion. I'm actually planning on going to Florida I went during the cold weather to explore my own relationship with it and hey, you know Maybe I might find something that I really love, but at least open to exploring Miami and that part of it, you know?
Derek Sivers
That's a beautiful example. And funny, thanks for that.
Derek Sivers
It should be a recipe for all of us, kind of like Gandhi telling the Hindu man, like, "Because you killed this Muslim man, you must raise his son as a good Muslim." It's kind of like, "Because you hate Miami, Ike, you need to go to Miami. You need to go there and find what you love about Miami. Because then, that's the next challenge, by the way, is to go there with rose-colored glasses and find what you love about this place that you default hate.
Ike Okwerekwu
I'm interested because, if I'm being honest with myself, all the stuff I hate about Miami were from the media and what they project onto it. Oh no, I still feel repulsed. But at least I still gotta go and check it out, like you said, because you never know. You never know. And even if, regardless, like, I think if I do find goodness in it, it will just make me question all my other limiting beliefs. And why does, like, you know, what's really... Why do I really hate something? Is it because the world is projecting these weird things onto me? Or is it because I really don't like it? Like, did I actually take the time to explore it?
Ike Okwerekwu
It's kind of like, you know what this reminds me of? Um, me personally, I don't try to get too political, but I felt like everyone made Donald Trump look like shit in the, like the, in the first thing where I felt like the media was just being very, extremely negative to him and, and, and, and, and framing him in a, in a, in a bad light. At least when he first, when he, when he was first running for president, only for me to, at least when I actually started to hear him on interviews and podcasts, me personally, like, Oh, this guy, he doesn't sound as good. bad as the media like portrays him. You know, I'm not saying I endorse him, but when I hear the media, Donald Trump sounds like the worst guy in the world. Like, you know what I'm saying? But when I hear him talk, he just sounds like a guy who wants to make his country better. At least to me.
Derek Sivers
Well, conversely, if, imagine somebody from China comes to visit America And you're talking to them and they say, "Where are the people eating rats?" And you say, "What?" They say, "Well, in China they told us that everybody in America is eating rats. And that everybody has a gun. Where's your gun?" And you say, "What? No. We don't all have guns. We're not eating rats." And they go, "Wow. Yeah, they told us that everybody had guns and you're eating rats." So you know there was this thing in the last election about like, "Hey, all the immigrants are eating dogs!" And then there's a thing with China, like, "Oh, they're an oppressed, enslaved people that every move they make is subjected to the government's social credit score, where you can't even leave your house if you don't have a good social credit score." And so I'll admit I went there last year and after meeting with some people that were Chinese and born and raised in China, I very gently said, "So, like, how does your social credit score affect your daily movement?" And they said, "What social credit score?" Well, you know, we heard that everybody has a social credit score. And they went, "What? No." I said, "Where did you hear this?" So of course I had to like go that night and look it up. But it turns out it was like an idea started by one journalist that the rumor spread or whatever. And I said, "But doesn't the government..." And they said, "What? No." And they said, "God, what are people telling you over there?"
Ike Okwerekwu
So sometimes you got to see things with your own eyes. And from the journalist perspective, I feel like they're just putting on a headliner to simplify whatever agenda they're doing and not really focusing too much on the details. I think it can get, I think reality can get lost in reading those articles and or the media. And, but it's interesting because they definitely have a huge like, um, influence on how people view the world. Maybe for you, how you see China or how I see Miami, like, you know, it is, they definitely influenced us in ways maybe for the better or for worse, you know.
Ike Okwerekwu
So anyways, I'm also, before I end this podcast, Derek, one question that I really wanted to explore with you, and I know it's kind of large and abstract, but I'm just curious:
Ike Okwerekwu
What is your ultimate philosophy that best serves you?
Derek Sivers
It's not one single one. That was the big epiphany of the book of my book called "How to Live". The whole point of How to Live and the reason that that book is so dear to me is that it has 27 chapters - each one is extremely opinionated saying "Here's how to live. This is the right answer. You must do this, do this, do that, do this, and that is the correct way to live."
Derek Sivers
But then the very next chapter will disagree with everything the previous chapter said. It'll say "No no no no no no don't live for the future, live for the present. The present moment is all we have. There's no such thing as the future. That's just your imagination. There's no such thing as the past. That's just memories. The only real thing is the present. And therefore, this is how to live. You must live entirely for the present."
Derek Sivers
And then the next chapter will say, "No, no, no, no, no, no. All those other chapters are wrong. Here's how to live. Make money. It's the only thing that matters. Money is a neutral representation of value. It's the only thing worth pursuing."
Derek Sivers
The meta message of that book was that no one way is the right way.
Derek Sivers
And the punchline of the book was a picture of an orchestra seating chart. Violins, violas, clarinets, trumpets, cellos. And there are 27 instruments in the orchestra seating chart to match the 27 chapters of the book, with the metaphor being that all of the different philosophies in life are like instruments in the orchestra. And you are the composer and conductor.
Derek Sivers
You can decide, "I need a little more flute right now. And in fact, I'm going to combine the flute with the harp right now. Then all of that's going to stop and I'm going to have just drums for a while."
Derek Sivers
And this is how it is with you choosing the different approaches to life like a composer chooses instruments. You can say, "I need to be fully present right now. And in fact, I need to be fully present and expressive. I need to express my truth, express as much as I can, and be fully present. That's what I need to do right now. But that's for now. And then, stop that. Only drums. I need to make money right now. I need to focus entirely on making money. Forget everything else. No more expression. No more being present. I need to just make money. And then, oh, my girlfriend's pregnant. I'm going to change my focus now. I'm going to live for the future. I'm going to delay my own satisfaction to build a brighter future. I'm going to focus entirely on others. And then you say, "Ah, but I'm not expressing as much and I miss that and I'm sad because I'm not expressing as much as I used to." So then, like a composer, now you bring in some violins to mix with your cellos or whatever. So you can say, "Okay, I'm going to focus entirely on other people, but also put aside time for myself every night to write my songs. And I am going to make money, but it's not my sole focus, okay? So now you've brought in the clarinets as well.
Derek Sivers
So you can find ways to mix the different approaches of life. It doesn't have to be one or the other. One is not right and the rest are wrong. That, to me, was the big epiphany of life - is that opinionated thought leaders will tell you "This is the way." And opinionated books will say "No, no, no, no, no, this is the way!" And it's really sweet to zoom out and see them all in perspective. They're just like different instruments in an orchestra that you play as you want when needed.
Ike Okwerekwu
Wow, that's very beautiful. I've never viewed philosophies as instruments that can all be played together for better or for worse. But that's a very beautiful metaphor. Thank you for that.
Ike Okwerekwu
I'm curious, because I did want to share my predominant philosophy that's been guiding me, and it's a Bible verse. And it has to do with, similar to what you're talking about, about changing perspectives and growing, but the Bible verses, Romans chapter 12, verse 2, and it says, "Do not conform to the patterns of the world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, so that in testing you may discern the will of God."
Derek Sivers
Nice.
Ike Okwerekwu
Yeah, and for me, as you were speaking, it reminded me about yours because it sounds like the renewal of your mind is giving you an opportunity to constantly change your philosophies and instruments and whatnot. But for me, I feel like a lot of life is about growth, you know, and as you grow, you encounter a lot of new problems. And then your perspective on something might change because you're growing.
Ike Okwerekwu
And so it kind of goes back to what you're saying about how you can use different instruments. But yeah, for me, the Bible verse, that Bible verse has been near and dear to my heart. And it gets me excited about life because I don't like, like you, one thing I love about you, I feel like you're a huge nonconformist. Like everything you do is like atypical. And I don't think there's anything wrong with that. I actually love that. But I'm also like, I don't like conforming to the world. I don't think it does much for me. And I think it goes, I don't think it's helpful for a lot of people, but for me, I can definitely say it doesn't make me happy to conform to the world. But when I continue to focus on the renewing of my mind, I get so excited about life and the transformation that come from it, you know?
Derek Sivers
I love that. It's so important to notice what works for you. You listen to anything anyone says. Try to listen with an open mind. Try it on yourself if it seems wise. And then notice whether it works for you or not. And then be honest about what works for you. Without insulting the things that don't work for you. But just notice what does work for you.
Ike Okwerekwu
Because those people don't realize all the little personal nuances that make you unique. Of course. Yeah, yeah.
Derek Sivers
Well, on that note, you said "conforming to the world." And my response is, "What world?" Like, when you say "conforming to the world," if someone says "conforming to the world," it's as if they've got a very limited view of what the world is, because it's a big world out there. Say to somebody in Cleveland that you're conforming to the world, a person in Cleveland can say, "I just moved here from Vietnam. What world is this that you're talking about that I'm conforming to? My grandmother moved to Vietnam from Kazakhstan. So which world are we talking about conforming to?" There are many out there.
Ike Okwerekwu
Yeah, yeah, yeah, but it definitely depends on your own personal perspective. Well, anyways, it was it was great speaking to you, Derek. I want to thank you for your time. And and this conversation is very enlightening and and very playful. And I'm and I'm enjoying podcasts that are free flowing. So thank you for that.
Ike Okwerekwu
For anyone who may be interested in connecting with you. How can people do that, Derek?
Derek Sivers
I answer every email I get. I don't do social media and maybe it's because I don't do social media that I've got time to answer my email. I really enjoy getting email from strangers. So anybody that listened to the end of Ike's podcast, I almost called you Dr. Ike. Anybody that listened to the end of Dr. Ike's podcast, yeah, go to my website, sive.rs. That's my website. Everything is there. Everything I've ever written. All of my thoughts, it's all there. And there's a big link that says contact me. So anybody listening, please do.
Ike Okwerekwu
Yeah, please do that. And he's a man of his words. I emailed him and he responded. So clearly he joins us.
Derek Sivers
That's why we're here. That's why we're talking. It's because you emailed me and I'm so glad you did. This was such a fun conversation. Thank you. So many interesting questions. So many interesting subjects. Thanks for having me on. It was a blast.
Ike Okwerekwu
Likewise, and remember everyone, the future belongs to the beauty of your dreams. And I would like to end this podcast with a quote that you actually wrote in one of your books. And because the name of this podcast is Ike Inspiration, remember from Derek, he wrote, "Inspiration is not receiving information. "Inspiration is applying what you received." So hopefully there was a philosophy or a thought conversation that we had that, you know, inspires you to actually take action and make your life better. Thank you, everyone.