Going Solo
host: Matthew Mayer
After 17 years of emailing, we talk about music, CD Baby, living an unusual life, useful not true, and more.
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Transcript:
Matthew Mayer
Ladies and gentlemen, I have an amazing guest to welcome to the Going Solo podcast, someone that I have personally been following for decades, and it is such a true honor to introduce via a couple stanzas, if you will, my next guest. It is a true pleasure to introduce Mr. Derek Sivers, joining from the land of New Z, where in the month of June, it shivers. An author, a speaker, an entrepreneur, a musician, a possible stoic-aligned philosopher sharing perhaps an alternative position of thinking, of approach, sharing fun stories along the way. Maybe he'll share the time in a hotel in Oslo, Norway. From Cali to England, traveled much as a boy, then at six took root for 14 years in Hinsdale, Illinois. Growing with a love of music and programming on his TRS 80, he went on to graduate from the College of Music, Berkeley. Identifying a need helping others in the music industry, he built a truly life-changing platform called CD Baby. Eventually selling his creation after an unbelievable journey, millions he has dedicated all to charity. Many lives he has touched, including as a musician mine. You might see him with cricket and clover or drinking Emirati's coffee in a mall in Dubai. From the circus to writings, there's something everyone to read, how to learn JavaScript, to the generosity of Sheikh Said, a professed life student, but I'd say a five-star tour guide of the mind. His chapter, The Past is Not True, brought tears to my eyes. It's no mystery to all as this intro is closing. I should have spent twice as long doing some major editing. Mr. Sivers, thank you for taking your time along your mindful way. It's truly an honor to speak with and hear from you today.
Derek Sivers
Wow. Thanks, Matthew. And by the way, ladies and gentlemen, my distinguished host and I have been emailing for 17 years. And this is our first time talking live, but Matthew and I have been emailing forever since the CD Baby days. Him first setting up Solopiano.com and not sure what to do with it yet. And you emailed me like, hey, I've got this great domain. What should I do with this? And just look what it's grown into. It's amazing. So I'm so happy to finally be talking with you. And by the way, thank you for that intro. It can have double use at my funeral someday. Sounded perfect for that. So hold on to that.
Matthew Mayer
Oh, man, it's so great. It's so nice for you to mention those things. I read back to some of the emails that I sent you, knowing you've received hundreds and hundreds and hundreds, and you've always been so generous to reply to every one, which is mind-blowing. And I think to myself, when I wrote back then, like, hey, will you check this out or check this? I'm like, my God. I almost am embarrassed that I wasted your time on some of these things. But you were always so generous to say, Matthew, keep going. You're on the right track. And it's always been awesome. Just awesome.
Derek Sivers
But, you know, I get that exact same feeling from the people that I email and look up to. So I just got an email minutes before we recorded. I just got an email from Kevin Kelly, who's one of my heroes. And he's one of those people that exactly, as you said, when I email him, I feel almost embarrassed. Like I'm wasting his time to be asking him this. And he says, Derek, it's fine. You know, email me anytime. I'm like, wow, wow, Kevin Kelly answers my emails. This is so cool. So yeah, it's all just the river from the, usually from the older to the younger generations. I'm 55 now, so it's kind of cool feeling like an old guy that gets to share what I've learned. But anyway, let's get onto the stuff that your listeners actually want to hear.
Matthew Mayer
Well, my listeners want to hear a lot. And I actually personally, I know you really, and I've always appreciated this about you, you really like to be, you like to optimize your time and you like to focus on, and you've done this since building your companies, focusing on the listeners. What do they want? And I reached out personally to my listeners. I said, I, you know, eight months ago since you said yes, I've just been giddy. And I've reached out to them. I said, well, what would you want to hear from Derek as I get a chance to talk with him? I'm like, oh my gosh, this is so cool. So my first question comes from probably not a natural question I would usually open with, but directly from a listener. He's an author in my same town and has kids, and he wanted me to ask you:
Matthew Mayer
What advice would you give a 21-year-old on how to achieve happiness?
Derek Sivers
First, start by doing unusual things. So many of the people I meet that are just adrift and lost and stuck are in that position because they've never done anything unusual in their lives. They just did the absolute normal stuff, same as everybody else, and just tapped the same apps and just did the railroad tracks that they were told to do. And because of this, they have no unique insights, no unique special skills or knowledge that everybody else doesn't also have. And so then they're disappointed that they can't do interesting work, but that's because they don't have interesting, unusual skills that would come from having gone and done something unusual. Even CD Baby: the reason that happened is because I threw myself into the music scene in New York City and did it all the way not just as a hobby but threw myself completely into that world and surrounded myself only with musicians and so I was able to see a need at the grassroots level that most that people thinking in more of an entrepreneur mindset didn't think was worth serving. So my main advice to my son, who's 13, and your hypothetical 21-year-old of the question, is to just go do weird stuff. Don't get a normal job that pays well. Go get a really weird job that doesn't pay as well but will give you a more unique experience. Go work on a fishing boat. Go volunteer in Tanzania or whatever the thing that can get you out of the normal circles. And ideally, pick something to get great at. Even if it's a weird little skill like Rubik's Cube or juggling or singing opera. just something to develop skills that most people don't have.
Matthew Mayer
So along that lines of doing something different, it's hard not to mention that you spent 10 years working in the circus. And was that type of mindset that you just said of just doing something unusual? And I know that led to, I believe, a performance at a, forgive me if I'm wrong, I'm paraphrasing, but some pig show or something that you were asked to do. And then from there, it led to this. But most people would have, because it's so fun to hear how that wasn't going to pay you too much at the time. You were playing gigs. 75 bucks.
Derek Sivers
Yeah. My first paying gig. That was great.
Matthew Mayer
You're on a bus. You're going to the paying gig. But that led to, to your point, doing something unusual. Can you talk about that journey of how stepping into something that maybe the majority, 99% of the people, Derek, would have said, I am not doing that. But that changed your trajectory.
Derek Sivers
So this is hindsight analysis that says go do something unusual. For me, I was just determined to be a professional musician. And that was just the first paying gig I had ever been offered. I was 18 years old. I was new to Boston, Berklee College of Music. And the bass player in my band said, hey, my agent asked if I would play guitar at a pig show. I don't want this gig. Do you want it? I went, oh my God, yes. My first paying gig. It didn't matter. It could have been a dollar. Let's go. But it was my first paying gig. So hell yeah. I did whatever it took. So of course you... You say most people wouldn't have said yes. But come on. I think most people in my situation of being an 18-year-old that wanted to be a professional musician and was offered 75 bucks. Yeah, I think most people would have taken it. in that situation.
Matthew Mayer
You think so?
Derek Sivers
Yeah, because it's just, it's something. It's a paying gig. Somebody offers you a paying gig doing the thing that you want to do with your life, you say yes. If somebody wants to be a writer and somebody pays you $10 to write something for some dumb newspaper that nobody's going to read. I just said newspaper, you know what I mean. Of course you'd say yes. You're like, wow, somebody's going to pay me $10 to write something. Cool.
Derek Sivers
So, but then the challenge is to keep following the unusual turn, to not just do what everybody else does. And I think that musicians get this more than most because as a musician, you don't want to write the same exact lyrics that other people have said and play the same exact notes that everybody else plays. You're looking for something a little different. Maybe even if it's just you're interpreting Vivaldi a little differently, that you do something a little unusual that's not just an exact replica of what's been done. And so same thing with your life and same thing with business. You avoid what's already been done because it's been done already. The world doesn't need you to do that. Somebody else has already done it. It already exists. So with your life, you make a few changes, make some unusual choices that haven't been done. It's an experiment. Like with playing music, you say, let's try this. What if I put F major here, E minor here, ooh, that's nice. You know, you try it, you experiment. So same thing with your life. What if I leave this job that I've been doing for a few years and I'm very comfortable and happy doing? What if I rent out my house to somebody else and I force myself to go across the world somewhere else for a year, live somewhere that's cheaper than here? There will be the cost of the flight to get there, but I'll be renting out the house. So ultimately, I'll come out as kind of a break even, but I'll get to have a really unusual experience that I wouldn't have had if I just stayed here at home doing the same thing for another year. What if? You know, it's the same sense of what if.
Matthew Mayer
Have you always had that, Derek? Or was there a certain age where you're like, what if?
Derek Sivers
I had a good girlfriend when I was 21. My first major girlfriend, when I was in the circus, she was a face painter in the circus. And she was a daughter of hippies that grew up with a great sense of adventure. So I think it helped from the age of 21 to 27, some formative years we were together, that she kept pushing me to do the unusual thing.
Matthew Mayer
And you say that too on your website, again, if I'm assuming the same person, that this person helped open you up and taught you how to be, I think you said, again, I'm paraphrasing, give me some rope here, but, and how to be truth.
Derek Sivers
Yeah, I think I said how to be honest, yeah.
Matthew Mayer
How, what, can you talk about that? Like, what did that mean? Like, how are you being taught to be honest?
Derek Sivers
Okay. Fun subject.
Matthew Mayer
That's what we love.
Derek Sivers
Most teenagers, probably all teenagers, start out thinking of romantic things as trying to put on your best face, trying to say the right thing in order to win affection. And most of us carry on that way. Some of us indefinitely. I meet married couples that are still not honest with each other, that are still just doing the square dance to live some kind of template life where, okay, well, "You're the husband, you do this and you're the wife, so you do that. Let's do the thing we're supposed to do with the house and the dog and the kids. Let's just do the thing that we do. Okay. Say what you're supposed to say now and I'll act like I'm supposed to act now." So you have to really challenge yourself to be as honest in your romantic relationship as you are with your best friend or your sibling or whoever gets the raw, unfiltered you. Maybe it's even your diary. Can you be as honest with your romantic partner as you are with your diary? There's a challenge. So Camille, my first major girlfriend, really challenged me to be that honest and showed it by example, and that really changed my life.
Matthew Mayer
Thank you for sharing that. That's beautiful.
Matthew Mayer
And keeping within your journey with the circus, I think I read somewhere you did like a thousand shows over 10 years. Is that right?
Derek Sivers
Yeah.
Matthew Mayer
Can you talk about too, how one of the co-owners of that circus really helped you open up from a performance perspective on how those first couple of shows, you had like an expectation that I got to do this, this, this, this, this. But then someone came into your life and said "hey!"
Derek Sivers
Okay, this is a fun flip of the subject we were just on. When you're on stage, being honest is not the only way to be. You might honestly just be tired and not too excited about today's gig in Springfield. But you don't show that honesty on stage. Instead, you conjure up a considerate part of yourself. It's in there. There's a little 1% of yourself somewhere in there. There is a brain cell and a blood cell that is glad to be here. So you conjure that up or you just fake it. You just fake it. You just say the thing that makes the audience happen and you give them the show because they spent money to be here and they came to see you, so you put on a good show.
Derek Sivers
But I didn't know that at first. I was trying to be myself at first. I was 18 years old. I had just started with the circus and I stood up on stage in front of a crowd and I said, hey, yeah, so, all right, here we go. Circus, who wants to see it begin now? You want to start? Okay, I guess we'll start now. And I went backstage and my colleagues said, no, Derek, come on, give it more excitement. You got to be big, you got to give it more excitement, more pizzazz. And at first I was doing it in little incremental bits that were not good enough. And so finally one day, passive aggressively after, they kept scolding me. I went out there and I just acted like a carnival barker. I said, "ladies and gentlemen, what you're about to see is one of the most amazing shows you've ever seen. We are about to have elephants coming in. There's going to be snakes, pears shooting out of the sky. And you are going to see the most amazing circus you've seen all day. Are you ready? I said, are you ready?" All that crap. And I did it in this like scoffing, insincere way. But the audience didn't know that. And I went backstage and everybody said, there, that's what we wanted. Thank you. Just do that. Yes. I went, really? You actually want me to keep doing that? I was doing that as a joke. They said, it doesn't matter. That's what we want.
Derek Sivers
So it's an interesting life lesson that you don't always have to be sincere. I think about the hotel concierge at a nice hotel that's tired and hungover and underpaid.
Matthew Mayer
I think you give this exact example in one of your writings.
Derek Sivers
Probably. I don't know why I just think of this a lot. I think I've stayed in just a couple nice hotels where the person at the front desk is just so nice, so caring, so attentive. And I know that can't be completely sincere. It must just be part of the role that you step into. Maybe they're back in the gray locker room, smoking a cigarette, taking off their Iron Maiden t-shirt, putting on the suit with little Hyatt Marriott badge, whatever. Getting to that persona, right? And they go out and they're like, all right, here we go. Okay, yes, sir. How may I help you? Oh, right away, sir. We will have the pineapples removed from your fruit salad. Oh, extra pineapple you want. Absolutely, sir. You've changed your mind. No problem. We'll have that right to you. You know, it's part of the job.
Matthew Mayer
It's so true.
Derek Sivers
Ultimately, it's considerate. It's putting others' needs above your own. It's understanding that the deal is, especially when there's payment involved, this is not a personal favor. You're a professional. You're getting paid for this. So you put aside your own moods and such for a while. And you step into the role and you do what the customer or client needs you to do. And you be who they need you to be.
Matthew Mayer
I love that transition. Because we just talked about being your true self, and then we talked a little bit about our persona. And I want to tie that in next to, so of course I want to get to useful not true. I'm a fan. As you know, Derek, I've got all your books. And I want to tie that into this next question about just an amazing book. And for everyone listening, please go to sive.rs and check out all of Derek's amazing writings. But I want to share with you my experience when I first read this amazing book, How to Live. And I'm tying it into what we were just talking about, how we just talked about one subject. Then we said, well, wait a minute. Sometimes it's okay to take off your Iron Man shirt and flip it around. And so I remember getting this book. I want to say it was around 2021 or something. I started, I'm just so excited. And I love everything that you write. Anyway, I'm reading through. And every page is just, you know, it's written just with a lot of, I feel confidence coming off the page. But then I'm going through the book and, you know, in one area it says, do this, do this, do this. And then in the next it said something that was absolutely polar opposite. I wasn't even thinking, Derek, like the whole concept the whole back concept of this is really challenging and and thinking of the opposite I'm like wait a minute you told me to live anywhere I can like it for like every six months but then in this other page you said no find that love and stay in that one place and enjoy it and da da da da da and I think that is such a that was a huge aha when reading this is like, wait a minute, maybe Derek's giving us all these different options for us to say, well, what is working in my life? What pull am I feeling?
Matthew Mayer
And am I even right on that, Derek, with how I've interpreted this in some of your other writings?
Derek Sivers
Yeah, absolutely. And I'm so curious what you as a musician thought of the last page.
Matthew Mayer
You've used that same image in your last book Useful Not True but you compared those instruments to philosophies. In the book here you you really you really drive home that idea that we are the conductor which i loved like we are the conductor of all these instruments and then it's took another step on useful, not true. Again, awesome book of how each instrument is our own philosophy. And we can, maybe we take a little stoicism. Maybe we take a little, I think, skepticism, which I didn't even know Derek was a philosophy. Yes. Yes. And give me some more clarinets, Derek, that I know you know how to play. Yes. But it's, but that's the fun, like as a musician, that was the fun of starting to incorporate what you write about and how we are, we can get out of that mindset that I, that you've talked about so many times about doing something that first question doing something that's not not um typical so it's your question as a musician especially with the last page one thing that i remember you talked about this was years ago and this really helped me as a musician and i hope it helps other musicians as they're listening is you talked about sometimes we kind of get worried about the rules of the music industry and like, wonder if somebody steals my song. And I remember you, and this, Derek has stuck with me for years because this was a long time ago. And I remember you saying, let them. So it does. And the reason why that helped me so much, Derek, is because when you're starting out, I'm coming from some small town in South Dakota, which is not a booming market for any type of industry. But you were even back then saying hey man, relax. Release what you love. Don't worry about the fine print. Don't worry if someone takes it because all that's going to do is help you in the long term. So thank you for those teachings as well.
Derek Sivers
It's a mindset shift isn't it to first realize that your enemy is not piracy or theft. Your enemy is obscurity. And you should be focused on that enemy more than worried that Jeff from Chicago is going to steal your song. Also because this beautiful realization that we are all imperfect mirrors. Even if Jeff from Chicago stole your song, it's going to be a little different than yours. And either people are going to love yours and hate his or not even notice the similarity that you as a musician may notice, but most listeners would not notice it because he put a synthesizer on it. And most people would say it sounds nothing like yours. So it's important to not let those feelings hold you back. You have to notice in any aspect of life, if an emotion is holding you back, whether it's fear or revenge or boredom or comfort, all of these can be emotions that hold you back from doing what you actually ultimately deeply want to do or who you want to be.
Matthew Mayer
So beautifully said, and it reminds me of another part you talked about, the comfort and leaning into pain. But I want to go back to talking about your journey after the circus. Speaking of music, in January of 1997, you wrote a song called Ready to Live. And it was maybe you were around 28 or so. But what's so fascinating, so I was listening to this song. It's got clarinet in it, and you're doing all the parts. And it's a great song. And again, people can go to sive.rs and check out all your music that you've done. But I want to read the chorus here. And it says, "I'm ready. I can finally say, I'm ready to take, because I'm ready to give. I'm ready. I can finally say I'm ready to die. So I'm ready to live." And I wanted to share with you my interpretation of that and why it popped out to me. I think in a little blurb, you talked about how this may have been a song about life after death. But I found it so fascinating with all the books that I've read of yours and the writings that this is a year before, like you're starting CD Baby. And it's a year before just a transformative, another transformative chapter in your life. When I read these words, I read that the answer to fulfilling ourselves is to give to others. And I think about your, and again, my interpretation. and I think about your business, what you've done, how you have approached so many things. It was you can have anything you want if you give other people what they want. Is there any truth in that of, is that how you carried over when I know your story of CD Baby is so well known about how you started and there was a need? But it seems like this was the start of another huge transformative time of your life.
Derek Sivers
I hadn't thought about that with that song, but maybe it was a mindset I was ready for - that I had thought about a little bit. That, yeah, if you are okay with the fear of dying, or if you have come to terms with the fact that you're mortal and you will die, that can help you live a fuller life. That's a lot of what stoicism talks about. And if you are okay with the idea of going broke and having no money, that lets you have a healthier relationship with money. So you could keep extrapolating those opposites. So maybe I was in that right mindset, but when CD Baby started, I had been selfishly focused on my own music for 15 years from the age of 14 to 29. All I cared about in the whole world was my music. I wasn't even a big fan of other people's music. There are some people that get into music because they're such a fan of others' music. To me, it was really more about me exploring my potential to make things happen. So after 15 years of selfishly focusing on me, When a musician friend in New York City asked if I could sell his music on my website, I did it just for him. And then a second and a third and a fourth came my way and asked if I could also sell their music. It felt really good to be appreciated and thanked after 15 years of me shoving my music at people that sometimes would like it, but usually not. It felt like every door had been locked for 15 years, and I was having to crack these doors open with an axe. And finally, all of the gates were just flung wide open. Like, "Oh my God, thank you, come this way, please, please, yes, we want this. Oh my God, thank you. How can I tell more people about what you're doing? I just want to spread the word!" And thousands of people just started coming in saying thank you. So of course it just felt amazing to get that social reward for the first time. Not the first, but yeah. After 15 years of very little of that. So then it was an interesting, like, Tao of business that by focusing entirely on others instead of myself, I ended up profiting more than I ever did those 15 years when I was focused on myself.
Matthew Mayer
It's an amazing story. And what gives me goosebumps about it, Derek, is because I was on your platform. And I'm one of thousands, and I'm not exaggerating, of musicians that you've positively impacted. Because back then, how else could you be a musician in South Dakota and get a distribution? and and so i for me to personally thank you and i want to read you this email of people this this is back even in 2005 um of giving an example to our listeners of what cd baby even back into this is 20 years ago it says, "Hey Matt I just sent you a check for $29.91." It was a CD sales payment. "Yes, it's good to get paid, paid, paid, paid for making music." And this is how your footnote was, which was always cool. "I hope I write you a million more checks. I hope you write a million more songs. I hope you get a million more fans who give you a million kisses. All because of CD Baby. Ciao!"
Derek Sivers
I forgot about that one. I have an archive of my other things. I don't have that in my archive anymore. Thanks for that. I had really forgotten that one.
Matthew Mayer
It just brings a smile to my face because I'm like, I literally, I mean, because of those actions you took, some little piano player, I mean, that's a real-life example of how, I mean, that was cool back then. I was like, oh my gosh, I'm getting a check for $29.91.
Derek Sivers
And it was a paper check, too.
Matthew Mayer
It's going to be a paper check. And I'm going to just be like, I'm going to open that up and like, look at this. This is my creation. So, again, just to share that real-life example is an honor for me to do. So thank you. Thank you.
Matthew Mayer
There's a fun story as you're building out CD Baby. I sometimes try to put myself in your shoes on these amazing moments that you share with us. One was in 2003. There was a time you're in a room with Steve Jobs. And it's a pivotal time in the industry. You have iTunes, and you're sitting there. You might have been around 33 or 34. Can you take us into that room and with a little bit of background of what's happening at that pivotal moment in the industry and what's going through your mind when you have probably one of the biggest names in the world, you're in that conference room with him. What's going through that mind? And he's asking for your product.
Derek Sivers
I was so close with the musicians that I saw myself as their public servant. Like I've got these 200,000 musicians in CD Baby that I represent their music. And I know that I'm kind of the liaison into the industry for them, or I thought of myself as the liaison into the traditional industry for them. So at the time, I think, I went to that meeting not knowing Steve Jobs was going to be there. It's just "Apple has requested that you come to our office at this date, at this time." So I went, and at first it was just some other person from Apple saying, "Hello, everybody. Thank you for coming." It was just a room of, I think, about 100 people from record labels and distributors. And then Steve Jobs came out in this little room. And I was like, oh, wow. Rockstar, Steve Jobs. So, yeah, there was an awkward moment where they assumed that they were dealing with record labels that have 20 albums, 50 albums in their catalog. And they said something about, we need you to use this Apple software tool to put the master CD from each of these, and our tool will help encode it and send it to us with the specs we need. You just need to type in the song titles and the artist title. Our Apple software will take care of everything else getting it to Apple. And I raised my hand in this room of 50 record labels, I said, excuse me. I said, "We have 250,000 albums. I don't think we can re-type all those song titles. Isn't there some bulk way to do this?" And the guy just looked really concerned. This was, by the way, I think Steve Jobs didn't answer this one directly. It was his other guy standing on stage. He said, "250,000?" I think they didn't realize who they had invited. And unfortunately then we were kind of a special example because nobody else had a catalog that big. So all the other record labels that were in the room got accepted instantly with their little catalogs of 10 and 20 that they uploaded. And they really waited a long time before adding the CD Baby catalog, which, yeah, that story's on my website, this whole silly back and forth where they didn't sign the contract, so I refunded everybody's money saying, "Sorry, everybody, I thought Apple wanted your music. It turns out they don't." And then the next day after I refunded everybody's money, then Apple said, "Okay, yeah, we're ready for it." It was just an odd time. But I wasn't that wowed by Steve Jobs himself. Yes, he's famous, but, I mean, come on, if you've been in the music industry for a little while, I met many more famous people.
Matthew Mayer
Absolutely, because I know you worked at Warner and you have no doubt, you know famous people, and you've met a ton of famous people. And I think trying to put myself in your shoes, it's also, Derek, does it ever hit you? Does it ever hit you about the true positive impact that you've made to an industry?
Derek Sivers
Rarely. It's sweet to look back on it maybe the way that somebody who wrote a hit song 30 years ago doesn't let that hit song rule their life anymore. But it is kind of sweet every now and then to hear their song playing in an elevator. Like, "Wow, I wrote that." Or somebody comes up and says, oh my God, that song you wrote, my husband proposed to me with that song, or whatever. So yeah, it's a thing I did 30 years ago. It's sweet to think what a difference it made. It was just me in my house in Woodstock, New York, being idealistic, accidentally having started this thing in a time when the web was so new. It's hard to explain to somebody now that it was such a edge fringe thing. I don't know what to compare it to now, but maybe like the way that like cryptocurrency was 13 years ago. Or the way that some, I don't know, there's probably some technology now that's on the edge of things that just only the real nerds are getting into. Most people aren't into it. Let's say something like ActivityPub, BlueSky, something, technology that, yeah, you can find some nerds into this, but most people aren't. Like, that's what the web was when I started CD Baby. It was just this thing that most people weren't doing. And I spent the first couple of years trying to convince people that it was okay to use your credit card on the Internet. That was such a new thing. People said, "I don't know. Can't I send you a check or something? I don't like typing my credit card into the Internet." I was like, no.
Matthew Mayer
I sent you a mail order.
Derek Sivers
Yeah. It was a very different time. It feels like many lifetimes ago. So if the repercussions of what I did had ripple on effects in the industry it's really sweet to think about but the actual actions of my part were just as a hobbyist trying to help my musician friends and that's not faux humble I'm just giving a realistic look back at what it was in the moment it was just me helping Marco and helping Rachael and helping David. And then just people kept coming my way and it was a little overwhelming. And I just tried to keep my moral compass to do the right thing to help the musicians. And then the big knock on effects came later.
Matthew Mayer
Along that timeline, and it makes sense, like you're right, it's not a full humbleness. Like you seem to be able to have a healthy detachment from things that is attractive. You know, I think, I don't know if it was when you were talking to Tim Ferriss back in, I think it was 2015, one of Tim Ferriss's favorite podcasts was with you and him. And he asked you, are you an INTJ? And of course, those things, Meyer Briggs, they can change. And if, you know, but I think at the time you mentioned that and it makes sense because I'm an INFJ and I mean, I'm Mr. Feels over here and I love getting all emotional. But I think another thing too is really, um, to your point of being able to have that healthy attachment is, is such a, is such a positive and something that's, that I'm, you know, continually striving for going on your timeline Derek on that CD baby um of course.
Matthew Mayer
The year that really stuck out to me um that you've shared is the year 2007 and for our listeners and the reason why I wanted to ask you this question is for any of our listeners that that are going through a tough time in life and I read your 2007 and a damn tough time in life. Can you share whatever you want to share about that but then some of those things that I think it's an inspirational thing to hear and how can we take some of those nuggets to say, holy shit, like if he can get through that year.
Derek Sivers
Well, yeah, at least there weren't medical issues. I didn't lose a limb.
Matthew Mayer
Speaking of, how's the cartilage in your knee? I think you said that.
Derek Sivers
Oh, not good, but oh well.
Derek Sivers
Yeah. So, yeah, 2007, let's see. I was 37 years old. It was my last year of running CD Baby. I didn't know that at the time, but it really hit this head where everything I cared about was upended. or I'd loved my company so much and my team of people, but somehow the internal company culture had got corrupted. And so my 85 employees were kind of staging a mutiny to make me walk the plank of my own company. It was not even like they were shareholders or anything. It was just I was 100% owner, but yet they were trying to get me kicked out of my company because I had spent so much effort trying to empower them that I think I over empowered. I abdicated instead of delegated. I learned that word later. But at the same time, I also got divorced after a six and a half year long, pretty wonderful relationship was suddenly over. So I was like single and dating for my first time ever at the age of 36. And that can be really depressing, discouraging, doing like dating apps and all that kind of stuff for the first time. Like, oh, man, this is harsh. And just by coincidence, just as my ex and I broke up, my apartment in Portland was under construction. And they were supposed to be done with the remodeling. And I mean, like one of those total things where they rip out the floor and ripped out the bathroom and everything. It was just a big cement husk. And it was supposed to be done by then, but the guys were taking months longer than expected. So I was sleeping on a couch in the warehouse while dating, while my employees were staging this mutiny. And, oh, man, it was just a really hard time. But, I mean, come on, I was also rich and famous. It wasn't that bad. It was just emotionally hard. But in the bigger picture, yeah, like I said, it's not like my loved ones died and I lost a limb and couldn't walk or whatever. I mean, I have friends that have been through so much worse that I don't think of it as that bad. It's just in my life, that was the hardest year.
Derek Sivers
And I think the lesson learned, the applicable, actionable takeaway, is that your mental state is a decision. You can get home tomorrow and see your house on fire and everything in it burn to the ground and oops, you forgot to renew your insurance. And you can find a way to look at that and smile and to say, what's great about this? And you can choose to find a benefit in anything that happens. And you just decide to, and then you notice inside yourself that that deliberate perspective helps put you into a better state of mind so you feel better, which then helps you take healthier actions than if you had decided that this is the most awful thing ever. So, yeah, even though I was going through a hard time, I was full of smiles and deliberate action and optimism most of the time. I think I had about 20 or 30 minutes a day where I was stewing with clenched fists, angry at the situation. But most of the time I would deliberately find a healthier perspective that would help me take better actions.
Matthew Mayer
It's amazing. And I hope people thank you for sharing that Derek. And I think you also write about beliefs lead to emotions, which leads to actions. And it's a great reminder that no matter what shit you're going through in life, because if people read this, it's, it's pretty intense. And it's when you talk about it and say, yeah, maybe I spent 30 minutes of being like, you know, revengeful or whatever. I know me, I would probably spend like two years trying to recover from this year if all those things happened. Have you, have, you talk, you're being able to regulate emotional reaction. Is that something that you have to work on? Is it something that you're born with? Is it a little bit of both?
Derek Sivers
I learned it from a Tony Robbins book when I was 19. And I've practiced it and applied it ever since. Things like, when everything goes wrong, you have to ask yourself, what's great about this? And you have to keep asking until you come up with some good answers. Because the good answers will not come at first. Your instinct will always be to say, "Nothing! This sucks. This is terrible. It's just bad. No, this is a dead end. This is awful. There's nothing good about this!" But you keep asking, you keep asking, and eventually you start to find benefit. You start to find something you can use. You start to find a healthier perspective that can help you take action instead of give up.
Matthew Mayer
Can you share the title of that book for our listeners.
Derek Sivers
Oh, yeah. It's called Awaken the Giant Within. You can go to my website where I've posted all of my book notes. Hundreds of books. Yeah, 450-something books are on my website. It's https://sive.rs/book If you go to that URL, you will see my notes on the last 450 books I've read, and Awaken the Giant Within by Tony Robbins is near the top of that list because it changed my life so much.
Matthew Mayer
So with all those books, and speaking of all the books that we have, and to that point, I know you've told this story before, and again, for our listeners, this was another impactful story that I was hoping you could share It's on page 21 of your useful, not true. That was just released last year. And you talked about the past is not true. And I teared up. I teared up when I read this and I'm sorry if you're tired telling the story and I promise I'll take us out of like the deep dark gloom, but it was, uh, I don't know. It was just very impactful. Or I can just say, Hey, well, we'll get up to the positivity here, which I'll, you know, Is this kind of like the bridge of the conversation where we're going into the minor keys? You know what I mean?
Derek Sivers
Well, actually, I'm going to give you an exclusive scoop on something I have never said publicly before. Because I've known you for so long, and why not? Let's do this. That story is not true. The last sentence of the book says "I hope you found this book useful, not true." All the stories in that book are made up including that one. I thought about making it a fable with somebody else and I said, well let me see what happens if I put myself telling it in first person? I was like, "Ooh, yeah, that works, I'll do that." And there were some stories that used to have me as first person that later I swapped it out and said it's my sister. I was like, "No, maybe not my sister. How about my cousin? Yeah, okay, my cousin." And one of them I made it a big troll on a bridge. But no, I swapped out characters. Those are all fables in that book. Including the one that sounds very personal is not true. And it doesn't matter because it's useful it's useful for people to believe it doesn't matter that it's not true so therefore it sticks with the theme of the book
Matthew Mayer
Two things. First of all i'm honored that you'd share that with me and second of all it makes sense that you said that it makes sense and i'm blowing way. Good damn it. That's a good story. And it's like, you know what? Just people go to sive.rs and please, you got to read these stories. And you know, Derek, man, you got me lost for words and I'm usually not too much lost for words.
Derek Sivers
Sorry, but while you're lost for words for a second. I can picture that story vividly. It's barely, barely, barely based on a true story. I did at that age get into a car accident, but not with anybody else. That's it. But I can vividly picture that story as if it happened. I can picture myself standing on her doorstep and having this misunderstanding. And when I tell that story as if it happened, I actually get a little teary-eyed.
Matthew Mayer
You can see the tears in my eyes. I just am thinking about it. Like I'm teary-eyed.
Derek Sivers
Yeah. And so, you know, novels, movies, stories, they reach something in us, even if they were just conjured.
Matthew Mayer
Sorry you got me. I apologize i'm the one that's supposed to be a little more polished on it. And I'm like, whoa, like my neurons are firing. Um, as you said that though, Derek, like, you know, I've, I've, I've read your stuff. I've read, I've read your, I've, I've, you know, the, the times we've had back and forth, I I'm like, I had so many questions right now. I'm like, nah, he's that, gosh, he's been asked that 20 times. Or like, okay, here's another funny thing for you, Derek. So like when I was watching some other past like interviews that you've done, and one was with Mark Manson, the subtle art of not giving an F. And there was like that tongue in cheek comment you made about, yeah, and all these podcasts, like they've always got the bookshelf in the back and they're strategically, dude, I had a bookshelf right here. That damn thing. I said, that thing's going. We do not need that. We do not need that. All we need for books is Derek strategically placed back here. But then it occurs to me, that's what's so fun about you is there's not a right or wrong. It's the permission. And you talked about this, I think it was with Greg McKeown. And that was kind of, that was a fun one to, he had a funny introduction with you, but you talked about the jail cell that people can tend to put their mind in and how you're like, hey, like we have a tendency to think that certain way. We have a tendency to lock ourselves in mentally.
Matthew Mayer
Do you feel like after CD Baby, After all these, after touring on the shows, it seems like your writings have really started to go to that. You said your ambitions are entirely intrinsic and intellectual. Is it more of just saying, hey, folks, lovely humans, there's another way. It's not an A or B, but there's another way.
Derek Sivers
Yeah, I think that is revealing itself as my ongoing message. That even if I were to say different versions of that for years to come, it feels worth saying and saying and saying over again in different ways. And by entertaining not just two, but many, many, many different points of view on anything, it helps you realize that no one point of view is necessarily absolutely objectively right or wrong. That there are different ways to see it. This is what has me fascinated with cross-cultural psychology or anthropology, is trying to really understand the mindset of vastly different cultures around the world, different ways of governing, different ways of considering obligations, and traditions, different ways of considering money or AI or police. It's fascinating to pull yourself out of the mindset you were raised in and try to really get into a mindset that absolutely conflicts with the values that you were raised in, but is not wrong. I love that. So I'd love to keep exploring that idea and talking about that for many years to come.
Matthew Mayer
And thank you for talking about those things. And to that point, another musician friend that I was in another country with this friend that I'll keep out of the name. But to your point about governance, this particular individual grew up in communism. and we were having lunch, and I was like, so-and-so, what was that like? What was that like growing up in communism? And we were talking, and then all of a sudden our voices started to get really quiet. And he said, you know what? The most poor did not go without. And tying that to what you just said, Derek, Like, I'm not, it's almost like we live in a world where we have to caveat damn near everything. But it made me stop and just think. It's not an absolute. I'm not saying, yes, that was da-da-da-da. But that's all he said. And he was very wise and a hell of a lot wiser than I am. But he was like, but, you know, he said other things. But the most poor did not go without. I was like, hmm, there's a lesson in that. And those writings that you're sharing that continue, it's like pushing us to that border. You say, well, hold on, flip it to the exact opposite. And just think in that. It's powerful and it takes courage because, like I said, it's almost like you have to, more and more, it's like you have to caveat everything in a conversation.
Derek Sivers
Well, you could just challenge yourself to not just because others do. Go ahead, be misunderstood. It's more like it's their problem, not my problem.
Derek Sivers
But let's add two more examples to that. This past year, one year and two months ago, I went to China for my first time reluctantly because my boy asked if we could please go there for his school holidays. And so I reluctantly said, OK, it's a nasty, difficult place. You're not going to like it. It's rough. people are rude the place is dirty and smoky it's but if you really want to go alright we'll go and we went and it was the opposite of everything I had expected it was clean people were so kind the air was clean because all the cars are electric now the day to day life was so efficient and Flawless. It was like when you were driving on a rough road for a while and you come to that newly paved patch that you had gotten acclimated to the rough road. And you suddenly get onto this newly paved path and you go, ooh, that's extra nice. That's what China is like now. And the people are happy. You look around, people are smiling and thriving and flourishing. And there's a wonderful sense of national pride right now because of BYD cars and deep seek AI and just in general. Chinese pride. People are doing really well and flourishing. And so you think about all of the anti-China stuff we hear, which makes sense if you think of one form of governance being threatened by an opposite form of governance. Like these governments have a problem with each other because the governments are conflicting, but the people are not. And in fact, you can go there and see that this other system that may conflict with the one we grew up with is working. It's flourishing. The proof is in the pudding. It's going well.
Derek Sivers
And then same thing with the Middle East. You mentioned in the little poem at the beginning, Sheik Zayed, who, you know, it's funny, I smiled when you said that because just 30 minutes before we hit record this morning, I was watching a little YouTube video interview with Sheik Zayed because I just kind of missed seeing his face. He inspires me. And so this morning I was typing in my diary and I thought, I miss seeing him. I went to YouTube and I just typed Sheikh Zayed UAE and it came up with an old BBC documentary I hadn't seen. I was like, oh, wow, this is great. So I was watching a bit of this, just a few minutes. And then you mentioned him 30 minutes later. So in a lot of parts of the Middle East, it's not a democracy because it's not a place of the people. It was a desert and this sheik owned this place. This is his place. This belongs to him and he lets us go visit, which is really nice. And so it's like, imagine going into somebody's house for the first time. They've owned this house for 100 years. You're entering their house, and you're mad that their house is not a democracy where you get to decide where things go.
Matthew Mayer
That's a great example.
Derek Sivers
Just because you grew up in your own house with different rules, you can't enter somebody else's house and be mad that they don't do things the way you do in your house. you can also see that things are going really well there and really thriving. And UAE in particular, I think, is really well run.
Derek Sivers
So for me, as a person that enjoys finding a different point of view, ever since I was a teenager, making music, saying, OK, that's one way this verse could go. What's another way? That's one way I could voice this chord. What's another way? That's one way I could arrange these instruments. What's another way? After you start arranging your song in three or four different styles, you realize that the first one is not the one and these are not variations. They're all variations. And just because the one you came up with first was your first idea doesn't make it any more true than the rest. And same with your culture. Same with our approach to money or our approach to family or approach to communication, anything. You don't have to do things the way that you're used to doing them. You can deliberately try a different way and suspend judgment.
Matthew Mayer
And to that point, so beautifully said, and I also love how you tie in so much the source or history of what you are looking into. So Dubai, for example, you're talking about Sheikh Zayed and I love in your audio version, you're like, I love this guy. Well, here I am on a Tuesday afternoon or Friday night looking up Sheikh Saeed on Wikipedia and I'm like, this is pretty cool. I wouldn't usually do this. But you take us back to those sources and you were talking about how like European countries divided up Africa with almost no type of consideration for the historic, you know, familial tribes. And you tie that into Dubai where it's like, no, we're going to, you know, how these things are Abu Dhabi, Dubai, and I'm not as nearly as well versed as you are any of these things, but it's so fun to learn about because that when, when you start to dig in to the history of these places. And you're like, holy cow, he was pretty resourceful with 4% of the oil reserves compared to Abu Dhabi with 95%. And those things, or he was, they were taking into consideration a familial history that goes back hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of years versus this is how it's going to be. We're going to chop it up like this and we're going to have a rule. And so when you talk about that and share those stories and insights, It helps the common man like me be like, whoa, that is cool. Oh, how can I think about that differently? Or you mentioned China with electric cars. I can't believe I'm going to share this, but I'm going to share this one thing. I've never had a new car in my life, Derek. I'm usually driving a 250,000-miler. You know, just mufflers just going and, you know, all my life.
Derek Sivers
That's smart. Yeah. That's a smart way to do it. It's kind of foolish and stupid to buy a new car. I admire people that don't.
Matthew Mayer
Well, that goes into your equation of wealth equals money over want, need. And I love that as well. And again, I'm trying to be respectful of time. But for the first time in my life, just recently, a month ago, I bought a brand new car.
Derek Sivers
Just after I said it's foolish. Sorry.
Matthew Mayer
Derek, this is perfect because I've just flipped. But I'm over my mid-40s now. So I was like, I'm going to try this out. And it was an electric vehicle and it happened to be a Tesla.
Derek Sivers
All right. Which, by the way, wait, let me pause for one second to say that's the only time that I think it's not stupid. I also, even though I have said my whole life buying new cars is stupid, with the new electric cars coming out, there aren't a lot of used electric cars. So I also, I bought a brand new Nissan Leaf a few years ago. Sorry to interrupt.
Matthew Mayer
This is great. I love it. I love it. Well, so there's a point to this story. So obviously people know there's a little bit of political ties to da, da, da, da, da, right? I've liked Tesla since they came out because they're clean. There's like natural to the energy. And I test drive. I was like, this is fun. And it's kind of like, it's kind of like a Mac in early 2000s. It's, you know, I was like, so it's the only time. I'm driving the other day, Derek, you know, stopped at a stoplight. I'm looking in my rear view mirror and I've got two middle fingers just right at me. It's like I turn back and, you know, I give him one of these and, you know, and I'm like, I, I like the car because I like the car. It has nothing to do with anything else. Talking about the contents in the box that I know you've talked about. But to your point, it's like with the caveat, with like judging, you know, you're not going to like China because of this, this, this. And then you're going, whoa, you know, or that person's bad because he's driving a Tesla. I'm like, you don't even know my political affiliations. Like I'm actually, you know, I'm a pretty harmless dude. I just like to drive an electric car. And I've just got two big middle fingers at me. And I'm like, how sad to be in that jail cell, you know, mentally. And through things in, you know, your teachings and other things that, the stories that you've shared, it's also freeing to be able to respond and recognize that too. It's like, I'm not, you know, this has nothing to do politically. It's this is a fun car to drive and I'm saving some money doing it and I've never had a new car and I wanted to treat myself.
Derek Sivers
Yeah. When I went to China, one friend was offended and said, oh, "So you endorse what they are doing there?" And I said, "Do you endorse everything your government is doing?" They grumbled an excuse. But yeah, not everything we do is an endorsement of everything up and down the chain in both directions.
Matthew Mayer
I hope a lot of people well I don't hope anything for everyone's got their own journey but it's such a the content's not the box again trying to be respectful of your time Derek
Derek Sivers
I'm okay don't worry about that we can talk about if you've got some queued up questions let's do it I just have questions
Matthew Mayer
I know one of your you mentioned one of your favorite podcasts Conversations with Tyler. I tried to, and so I, so again, I went and I checked his podcast out. I was like, well, what is he doing? What questions is he asking? And he asked these very direct to, you know, intellectuals of all different disciplines. And I'm like, okay, if I could ask some direct questions in a format of Tyler with Derek.
Derek Sivers
Let's do it. Lightning round.
Matthew Mayer
That's going to be a lightning round. And we're going to just see where this takes us.
Derek Sivers
Okay.
Matthew Mayer
Mr. Sivers, what happens after we die?
Derek Sivers
Everything. People play Frisbee in the park. Football game goes on next week. It's just, you're not there anymore. And, oh, what? You thought this was all about you?
Matthew Mayer
Ha! That was good. Wow. Talk about flipping that back on on the other side. I've never heard that answer before.
Derek Sivers
Actually, thank Louis C.K. for that. It's a spin on a Louis C.K. joke.
Matthew Mayer
It's good.
Derek Sivers
It's funny that when somebody says, what happens when we die, they're only looking at it from their own point of view. From everybody else's point of view, the world just carries on. We're not that affected.
Matthew Mayer
What is a potential downside of artificial intelligence?
Derek Sivers
Overdelegation. Yeah, I'll leave it at that. Overdelegation to thinking that the average content it churns out is good enough.
Matthew Mayer
What are three absolute truths?
Derek Sivers
I just clapped my hands. I just snapped my fingers. And I am speaking into a microphone right now.
Matthew Mayer
What do you want your legacy to be, Derek?
Derek Sivers
I honestly don't care. I would be happy to be forgotten because it's not about me anymore. If I'm forgotten, then it's zero-sum thinking, but it kind of assumes that somebody else is getting more attention. And I like that. I want other people to get more attention.
Matthew Mayer
Those were my Tyler questions. All right, that was fun.
Derek Sivers
We can do more if you've got other questions.
Matthew Mayer
I do have other questions.
Derek Sivers
Keep doing a lightning round so we can get through every question.
Matthew Mayer
I asked my 13-year-old, so I also have a 13-year-old, I have three kids, but I also, my middle is a 13 year old son. And I know you had a 13 year old son. I said, Charlie. And I kind of introduced him to your writings and everything. And he loves video gaming.
Matthew Mayer
And, um, my 13 year old son, Charlie wanted to ask you this, is artificial intelligence going to replace most jobs?
Derek Sivers
No it will just change what we do like cars did, like the internet did. Somebody asked me last week what's the point of humans now? Something like, "Why should I bother doing anything now if I can have an AI do it for me?" But what the question is forgetting is that you can always have somebody else do something for you. At any time, if you're asked to do something, like cook a meal or write an article, you could always just pay somebody else to do it for you. That was always an option. It's just that now it's cheaper and kind of interesting that computers can do it. But you could always have somebody write a song for you. You can have somebody else sing it for you. You can have somebody else write a poem for you to read to your child at night. You could have somebody else read it and record themselves reading it, and you just play it for your child so you don't need to read them a bedtime story. It was always an option for you to do nothing. But you chose to do things, maybe just because of budget, But probably because you want to do some of these things. You want to be the one to write that song. You want to be the one to see if you can learn to speak French or feel the sound of French in your mouth. And so you do the effort to learn French instead of just hiring somebody else or paying somebody else to speak French. So, yes, it's new that you can get a computer to do these things instead of another person. But that's not entirely new.
Matthew Mayer
So to that point, and knowing you will spend hours in your day, Derek, nose down writing, writing, writing, writing, and editing, editing, editing. And you mentioned you use Claude. And you've even mentioned on your website, too, that no, none of your writings are AI. Do you ever feel selfishly threatened as a writer that AI is coming in and and potentially you know potentially over the years could I say hey make this make this article sound like a Derek Sivers article??
Derek Sivers
Not threatened at all because the point was never to have it done. The point was the doing. For the same reason, when you sign up to run a marathon, you don't take a taxi to the end. The point was not to get to the end. The point was the doing. I write to see if I can sharpen this point and shoot that arrow into your mind. That's a personal challenge that I want to see if I can do, like wanting to run a marathon or wanting to learn to speak Chinese. That's the only reason I do anything, not for having it done, but for the doing.
Matthew Mayer
So that brings me up to what you talked about with goals and how to live. If I may take a reading on that, along that line, you said, you need to understand something very counterintuitive about goals. Goals don't improve your future. Goals only improve your present actions. A good goal makes you take action immediately. A bad goal doesn't. A goal shows what's right and wrong. What moves you towards your goal is right. What doesn't is wrong. And that stuck out to me as you're talking about it's more about the process of sharpening your arrow.
Derek Sivers
Yeah, that's a wonderful insight I can't take full credit for. There's an old book by Steve Pavlina, called Personal Development for Smart People. And that little idea was buried somewhere deep in that book where it said goals are not to change the future, goals are to change the present moment. I thought that was such a beautiful, powerful insight that I've extrapolated further to different aspects of life, think that it doesn't really matter what you say, it just matters what you do. You can say you're a good Christian. Are you being a good Christian? You can say you're a good friend. Are you really being a good friend? You say you're an entrepreneur. Are you really starting something? Entrepreneur means to launch a new thing. It's like being the impresario that begins the thing. Are you really doing that? Are you launching the thing that's serving people? We have words. We spew words usually to communicate to others as a way of telling them who we are. But our actions don't usually align with all the words we spew.
Derek Sivers
I heard a beautiful example from an economist named Bryan Kaplan. Bryan Kaplan said, "You say that you're against inequality and segregation. So are you going to move to a poor neighborhood? If not, then you're not really that against it. You can say it, but your actions reveal your real values. Unless you're really going to leave your nice neighborhood and move to a poor neighborhood, well, then it seems to me that you actually like segregation and you like the inequality." It's powerful stuff.
Matthew Mayer
It's very, very powerful. And I think you said in a past podcast, I'm forgetting the host name and I apologize, it was Mike something, and you talk about how that can also change. So going back to being an entrepreneur, I think he said, well, it's been a while. Well, Derek, since you've started a company or whatever, and you made a really good point. You're like, yeah, maybe right now I'm not an entrepreneur. Maybe right now I'm an author. Maybe right now I'm not always, because I started CD Baby doesn't mean that every single day of my life I'm an entrepreneur. So that concept of continuing change and also living into what we define ourselves in our words is so powerful.
Derek Sivers
Matthew, imagine expiring your titles minute by minute. You and I are talking on a podcast right now. Neither of us is a great dad right now. We're not really a dad at all right now. We contributed something to the birth of some children, but we're not being dads right now. That's another powerful idea to expire your titles immediately. Put them and only give yourself that title when you're actually doing the action.
Matthew Mayer
And I already felt like I wasn't when I read that you spend at least 30 hours plus with your son. And I'm like, holy shit, this guy is just amazing. I'm like, you know, the last couple of days, I'm like, all right, boys, let's go take a walk, you know, and I got to turn my phone down. I already got rid of my bookshelf. Now Derek's got me taking on the fire time. You're right. I'm not being a very good dad. I'm like, kids, don't make any noise. I'm talking with a really cool person here at three o'clock. okay dad uh you know as if they really care you know what i'm doing but um exp that's a good point expiring every minute is we aren't what we are that the present and what that is again how you talk about useful not true and how the past isn't real with that story um god there's a lot of powerful stuff there. And if I can ask you a question from hell yeah or no, you mentioned, you always do a very good job of like mentioning authors and mentioning people that have inspired you.
Matthew Mayer
And this was just another mention that you gave on something that you wrote was how Stephen Pressfield, the author of The War of Art, referred to a devil of, he referred to not the, but a devil called resistance. When you're, Derek, getting up in the morning and you're spending hours and hours and hours, you say you're very singular focused and you're working on something. Do you ever come up against that resistance?
Derek Sivers
Oh, all the time. Sorry, yes.
Matthew Mayer
How do you get through it? And what's your advice for any creative that's trying to get through a writer's block?
Derek Sivers
Oh, okay. Well, there's not only one way to look at it, surprisingly. I was just last night thinking, I haven't written anything publicly in months, many months. And I remembered that somebody long ago shared a different perspective on writer's block, is to say, hey, when you've got writer's block, you should be thankful. Congratulations, you don't have voices in your head for once. Just enjoy the silence for a while. It'll come back. So you don't always have to stop writer's block. You could just enjoy it.
Derek Sivers
But there are many different techniques. Just like there are many ways to lose weight, many ways to get fit, many ways to have a great relationship. There are many ways to overcome resistance. And you just have to learn what works for you. I've enjoyed some of the tips I got from a book called Daily Rituals that studied the work habits of dozens of legendary creators, let's say, whether they're They're musicians, painters, even scientists, thinkers, writers. A guy went back into the biographies and autobiographies of these people and found their work habits, going back to Mozart and whatnot, so that we could learn from how different people ran their creative life. And most of them had set rituals. 9 a.m. to 12, I write. From 12 to 1, I take lunch. From 1 to 3, I read. And from 3 to 5, I have my social time or whatever. But some just squeeze it in whenever they can. Whenever there's a minute, they'll spend a few minutes writing because they don't have ritualistic lives. So neither one is the right answer. You just have to find out what works for you. One of my favorite ideas is to just physically don't let your fingers leave the keys. And also, I will go over to my broadband modem that provides the Wi-Fi and shut it off and hold down the two power buttons on my phone until it's completely powered down and enjoy the silence and disconnection. Because it's removing the temptation to jump online in the same way that removing the box of cookies from your house can help you. Removing the internet from your capabilities helps you.
Matthew Mayer
Speaking of box of cookies, you seem to, and I think you wrote about this, about you try to avoid anything that could have a tendency towards addictions. And, I mean, you look very healthy and you seem to be a really healthy guy. Is there certain things that you're doing now that are contributing to your physical health and anything that you could share with listeners?
Derek Sivers
Easy short answer, no. I'm not in great physical health, not in bad physical health, but not in great physical health. I am nobody's role model in this realm. I have no good info to share.
Matthew Mayer
But do you feel like your creative process of writing - when you either do some lifting or squats or whatever like you feel that that does help a creative process
Derek Sivers
They're independent. There are things that i do for exercise that might be good for my sanity, like taking an hour-long walk in the woods, which I do most days that the weather isn't bad. I just live right next to a forest, so, you know, it's easy to just toss the shoes on and go for an hour. It's a path I take all the time that I don't have to think much about. Just a one-hour loop that's very hilly, so it's good for me. That's good for my mental health. It lets me ruminate, reflect. It's like a spit valve on a trumpet that helps some of the stuff come out. But I wouldn't say that's directly related to any creative productivity I think that really just comes from keeping your damn fingers on the keys and doing the work.
Matthew Mayer
Have you always been that disciplined?
Derek Sivers
Yes, because I've been that motivated and that fascinated with the desired result. I've wanted so badly since the age of 14 to be a professional musician, and I wanted so badly from the age of 29 to make a great company that was helping musicians. And I've wanted so badly since the age of 39 to expand my self-identity and adopt viewpoints that would have been unthinkable for me before. I want all of these things so badly, so passionately, that I will bounce out of bed at 5 a.m. to do them and do whatever it takes to make it happen.
Matthew Mayer
Where does that come from when you say you want it so badly? What's the source of that, Derek?
Derek Sivers
I don't know. I wish I did. Because then I could give it to others.
Matthew Mayer
And in a realm of thinking things through differently, Can you share about the progress of the house, the 4x8 meter house that you've built?
Derek Sivers
I don't have much interesting to say about it. It's a 4x8 meter metal box made in a refrigerator factory. Very insulated, which is what's needed here in the part of New Zealand I live in is cold most of the year. Nine months a year it's cold. So I needed something very well insulated, which most houses are not here. But I didn't like the idea of having a bathroom and a kitchen inside. I like to keep those fumes and steam and such outside the house so it doesn't rot the house. So the carpenters are still building the bathhouse that sits outside the metal cube, which has been sitting there for eight months, and I'm eager to move into it, but it's taken this long to get the outdoor bathhouse built, and I'm still pushing every day to try to get Internet connected there because it's a piece of off-grid land, And it's been months that I've been pushing the local company to run the fiber to it. So I'm still trying.
Matthew Mayer
And correct me if I'm wrong, but the experience of that, was that because you wanted to start and work reverse of what is it that I really need to live?
Derek Sivers
Yeah. Well, maybe not even to live. That would be a slightly different challenge. But I've always lived in homes that were built before I moved in, and I would adapt myself to the house. I always thought it would be really interesting to start from scratch with nothing but a well-insulated rectangle and then see what I actually need instead of predicting what I might need.
Matthew Mayer
And here I thought that just getting rid of a formal dining room was cool and groundbreaking. I never liked formal dining rooms.
Derek Sivers
Me neither. They're so, I think about wasted space. So even when I was thinking about what to prioritize in the house, a toilet's important, yes. But the truth is, I only spend two minutes a day on the toilet. It should not take up a lot of real estate. It should not have a top-tier priority. It's just a couple minutes a day. Whereas, for example, I spend way more time recording podcasts like this than I do sitting on the toilet or even standing at a toilet. I spend way more time typing at my desk. Way more time. I mean, 12 hours a day. I'm hands on my keyboard typing. That's really most of my waking hours. So my sleeping hours, those are major. My typing hours, those are major. Kitchen, bathroom, those are a few minutes a day. It's really minor. It's interesting to see that objectively, instead of projecting values that we're told we're supposed to have, like a dining room. How many hours a year do people really use their dining room? Not as many.
Matthew Mayer
That and Christmas dishes.
Derek Sivers
Yes!
Matthew Mayer
Like, I don't need any more Christmas dishes, Mom. I love you. I just don't need any more.
Derek Sivers
Yeah. Dude, I don't know if you heard, I think you did in an earlier podcast, that in my house there are only two plates and three glasses, and I don't even know where those three glasses came from. I never bought them. I think they're just things that people left here. So it's really just me and my kid here. And if one of us has friends over, and if there are more than two people in the house, well, then we use the cardboard pizza box to eat off of. You know I'm not going to go buy a bunch of dishes for potential fictional guests that I don't want.
Matthew Mayer
I think it was on the Tim Ferriss podcast because he also joked about the glasses he said and they weren't just the same glasses these were like three different really different glasses I'm just laughing I'm like that's awesome.
Derek Sivers
I didn't realize till he said that I went yeah actually I don't even know where they came from. No, one of them I know where it came from. I stole it from a furnished place I was renting once. It was a furnished house that when I went into the kitchen, there was nothing there but one big giant glass and the owner didn't know where it came from either. So later when I moved out, I took that one glass because I loved that glass. That's the only glass I know where it came from. The other two, I don't know how they got there.
Matthew Mayer
Oh God, it's so great. And so, and then knowing, you know, you being in New Zealand and I didn't, I didn't realize how it was I mean talk about always being able to look at the other side of things like it's like kind of winter right now isn't it in
Derek Sivers
New Zealand oh very much winter yeah it's full-on winter it started yeah
Matthew Mayer
it's so crazy I was like it starts in June yeah winter
Derek Sivers
June through November exactly. Makes Christmas and New Year's have a different meaning down here because Christmas and New Year's down here is peak summertime it's like what in America you of as like the fourth July right you think of dangling your feet in a river and and swimming and jumping in the swimming pool that's what Christmas and New Year is down here
Matthew Mayer
You've been in New Zealand for a while and you've you're so singular focused you know I try to again I try to kind of picture like what your days are like and I also thought it was really cool how you said currently two of your best friends one lives in hong kong and the other lives in i think lithuania and you just talk on the phone you've never you've never like you've never talked to him face to face, and you prefer that. You prefer phone over in-person.
Derek Sivers
It might be different if my best friend lived next door. I don't think we would call each other. But the person I consider my best friend, we haven't seen each other in 13 years, and I know that because my 13 year old boy pooped on her white dress when he was a couple months old and that was the last time I saw her. We talk on the phone every week and have for 13 years. Actually, we talked on the phone for years before that too. But that was the last time I saw her was 13 years ago. And it's the same with a lot of my friends. We talk all the time. But I'm on an island in the Pacific and I move a lot. And in a few years, I'll move to Abu Dhabi or Shanghai or Bangalore. And I'll keep talking to my friends from around the world every week.
Matthew Mayer
So cool because another part you mentioned in that is that it's, you said there's like, there's no real distractions when you're talking to somebody on the phone, the dead time there is not as much as if you were just kind of hanging out in the living room and maybe you feel like it seems to fall into optimizing your time.
Derek Sivers
Yeah, a bit. Yeah. We have a great one hour conversation instead of three hours of sitting around.
Matthew Mayer
Well, and that's what I read too on your website. You're like, well, if I pretend like my hours worth $1,000, watching Game of Thrones for 70 hours is going to cost me $70,000. And so I'm going to make sure to do all I can in my control to make sure Derek doesn't feel like I'm wasting his time because I know how valuable it is. Thank you. Mr. Sivers, I am over the moon and I've just been so excited. And this whole conversation has been such a gift. It's such a coming full circle. So thank you so much. I know you hear it all the time, and I don't want thank you to be corny, and I don't want to think, oh, gosh, everyone thanks me, and they think I'm this.
Derek Sivers
Dude, does anybody say that? Everyone thanks me? Nobody thinks that. Come on. You're a musician. You get people coming up to you after your shows going, "Oh my God, Matthew, that was amazing!" Do you get sick of them saying that? No.
Matthew Mayer
Never. I'm like, please, butter up my ego as much as you possibly can. Oh,
Derek Sivers
Wait, I didn't even tell you. All this morning, I was listening to your music all morning. As I was just doing emails and stuff. Dude, and I'm sorry I don't remember the song, but there were two different moments that I literally got the chills down my spine. It made me tingle. Something about there was one moment where you like went to the chord I was not expecting, I was like oh oh that was nice and there was one moment where you had like this beautiful hesitation I was like oh that was nice I'm like I meant to tell you that as soon as we got on the phone so sorry I didn't tell you till the end but I'm glad I didn't forget.
Matthew Mayer
Well coming from you that knows Music Theory Inside and Out, knowing that my stuff is very elementary compared to what you probably usually listen to, that means so much.
Derek Sivers
It's beautifully, if elementary, it's beautifully elementary. I really like your stuff. It was really wonderful to hear it again for the first time in years.
Matthew Mayer
Thank you. Thank you so much, Derek. That means you couldn't give a musician any better of a compliment. Now I'm on cloud nine. In closing, I hope someday our paths cross in person. And if not, that's the way the universe was meant to be. To all of the listeners, thank you for listening. And please, please, please check out Derek's website. If you haven't already, a lot of my listeners probably have, but it's sive.rs
Derek Sivers
Send me an email and say hello. Anybody listening to this should go introduce yourself.
Matthew Mayer
Because Derek does reply, and he's replied to me for 20 years.