Barking

Too true. How many of us have deleted friends on MySpace, etc. who over-update/bulletin?

BRILLIANT!!!

(I mean...brilliant.)

Another great point Derek!

like the man in the park, or on the street, maybe we can't tell if we are 'barking' and of course no one will come close enough to let us know!

Innnteresting. Great point! Any suggestions, anyone? — Derek

BUT!! If you're an acoustic roots band busking in Union Square...it's better to switch to louder, better projecting, resonator guitars instead of continuing to break strings on your wooden ones to be heard. Just don't use a battery powered amp to take it up another notch...we got fined for that in Union Square....

Like the old adage.

If you want to capture someones attention, whisper.

Works for me.

To Doug, I don't believe there is such a thing as over updating if you've really got things to update. It's this repetitive action that gets really irritating and annoying. But here's an interesting thing to think about, because those people were yelling they have made an imprint in your mind. Whether the imprint is bad or good it's better than leaving no impression right?

I so easily fall into that trap. Something not working, I am tempted to convince the same people I just turned off by my 100th pitch.

Perhaps a better way to reach those people is through relationship, and giving them something completely unrelated as a gesture of kindness. Once they like you, they'll like your product (or at least be willing to tell others about it if they see a need).

Nothing worse than making friends run for the hills when you show up with your same old box of goodies (or the same box with a new coat of paint)!

This is certainly food for thought... I am promoting a live musice event/guest interview in LA on 7/22 and I'm very conscious of not going over board on email blasts, Myface, etc... Any tips, Derek? www.lifechangeswithfilippo.com

I believe you know Filippo Voltaggio...

Say what you mean, Josh. ;-)

Too right. But one of the tricky challenges in music (and perhaps all marketing, but I'm not a guru) is to know how, and at what point, to decide that something isn't working...

i love your posts of wisdom, Derek. practical, wise, and funny. and right to ther point, no b.s. you've helped me a lot developing my career as a musician. thanks!

Dave

This is so true. It's like a commercial on tv that's so much louder then the other commercials you just mute it. Good one Derek

Very apt, and a good lesson too!

And the world of permission marketing is born. =)

yes! and it's not just the volume, but the quality of your voice (literally and otherwise) that makes people want to come closer and listen, or disconnect.

Barking is one thing but when it comes to music and the internet they'd rather steal it than pay for it. It must be the code of the internet or something but no one likes supporting the artist they like. Ask Ozzie when he released his latest album. I've had my songs for sale for 2 years online with cd baby and snocap and I've made like 19 cents on them. I get alot of compliments from people on them but no sales. I must be getting robbed somewhere but just can't figure where? Do you know where?

Good point, Derek! It's all about having the courage to believe in yourself and what you share. If I believe in what I create, i don't need to bark to announce it, do I?

I guess I'd have to say I prefer the guy who cares enough about the homeless to shout about helping to feed them to the guy that makes glib critiques of the shouting guys methodology. Particularly when the critiquing guy has to sneak in that he has decent interval recognition possibly perfect pitch (unless he was at the keyboard or guitar when hearing the offending shouter) under the guise of "detail". And when he also drops that he is a world traveler without recognizing the irony in the context. Let them eat brioche.

Sorry it rubbed you the wrong way, Vince. Nothing against the shouting guy or his cause. Just always trying to notice what works and what doesn't so I can help my musician friends with their promotion efforts. — Derek

Hi Derek:

I totally agree with this, and for me, it applies to all types of sounds, promotions and advertisements. Especially tv & radio announcers tend to bark, and it makes me change the station or turn it off. I live in Nashville, and ironically nearly all the singer/songwriter clubs here mix the sound TOO loud, the guitars with too much mid range, just abrasive loud sound, to where even a beautiful song with wonderful singer can sound terrible! I believe more people would listen and lean in to listen, and quiet down and enjoy the music and life so much more if the sounds were pleasant, drawing folks in rather than pushing them away.

Thanks for your message.

blessings,

Laurie

Ha! It reminds me of "Bring it on down to Omelettville!" from SNL. Nice thoughts, put a muzzle on it.

Derek,

My name is John Gilkes and I am in a contemporary Christian rock band which is currently working on a marketing plan. We are having some difficulty making an educated decision about selecting our target market. In the past we have played to so many different audiences it has been quite hard to determine where it would be best to focus our marketing efforts. I was wondering if you knew of some online resources (preferably free ones) or books that we could use to aid us in making the best choice. Thank you for all the emails you have sent with your small pearls of wisdom for those of us trying to live out our dreams. I hope this email finds you well and I look forward to your response.

Best,

John Gilkes

Root Road

Rhythm Guitar/Vocalist

Ph: 440-242-5327

www.sonicbids.com/rootroad

I know what it feels like to be reduced to barking. I have been the guy in the park. Talk about ineffective. They locked me away in the looney bin. dale

Love the photo of the dog...

(no, I didn't miss the point!)

Kind of the reason I would flip the channel when Billy May came on screaming at the top of his lungs for me to buy this product!....I have always tried to utilize curiosity as opposed to blatant advertisements....really simple example: get your band-mates to the local park, with a picnic blanket, and some acoustics...and just have some fun playing your tunes...kind of a outdoor rehearsal....people always come over and introduce themselves, and ask "where can they get our CD"....and of course we just happen to have a few!...and get their email too....and we are a rock band! So I am sure this works for almost any type of music.

Wow! I have noticed that the harder I promote the less sales I get! Its kinda confusing, but it is true.

There's an old expression. If you want to get someone's attention, whisper. Publicity is one thing, but annoyance is something quite different. The cream always rises to the top.

If you are truly as good as you belive you are, be patient, you will be found. Unfortunately it might not be in your own lifetime but your talent will be discovered someday if it is worthy.

Many of the world's greatest writers and artist died in poverty, but their are lived on. It should not just be about getting rich or famous, but about putting real quality work out there.

Whisper with quality and you will be heard.

Derek,

Ah Baby, Once again you share with us through your superior mind and experience an excellent point!

Therefore, could you not share with us a tid bit of your wisdom and give us some examples of just 'What' to do other than barking to get attention?

Just a thought and not meant to be critical. Cause, you know The Queen of Ivory Soul loves her some Derek up in here!Keep up the GREAT work!

With Ivory Soul & Gratitude,

May Palmer

The Queen of Ivory Soul

Does the name dropping, self promoter who starts every sentence with "My buddy (insert famous musician's name)..." count as a barker?

people barking their music at you is the most annoying thing in the world...

One of my heroes has an inspiring take on this type of 'marketing.' If people are not responding to your message, do not talk louder, change the message.

As far as Allen's point: "like the man in the park, or on the street, maybe we can’t tell if we are ‘barking’ and of course no one will come close enough to let us know!"

On my music email list, I have two friends that I tend to run the messages past first to give me feedback. Sometimes I do not like the feedback, but over time I see their wisdom.

Great article, and I agree with Amandah Jantzen, I love the photos you have at the end of all of your articles. Great advice that I will definitely keep in mind.

Thank you. Love the picture of the dog too!

Oops the aforementioned hero is Seth Godin. I should have read this carefully before posting as I intended to give him his credit.

No wonder we go barking mad:

Try to be refined and subtle and people say:

"Why didn't you let me know about your performance! You should advertise more! I didn't know you had all these cds" etc.

So, you advertise more, (get louder-maybe a little pushier) and it's: "Don't be so commercial you'll scare people off."

Barking--whining---grrrrr!

Sometimes it's the way a comment is made makes a difference. For me, I stopped telling people what I do - until they ask. Then they become more interested.

For a recent business friendship, it was an errant complaint of a comment in a chat program that went to the wrong person which suddenly got me a lot more calls and work. Now if I could get a chance to make that comment to a person whom I've been working on a deal with for a year...

Ah yes, but what about the person who's working smarter, but unaware they're "barking" up the wrong tree?

I have been in the marketing and sales business for over 33 years and your statement rings very true. It's not how you say it but what you say and the way you manage to present it.

over updating is a bit frustrating on myspace bulletins when i see either the same person or sametopic 12 times two pagesin a row! spread it out...thats barking...make friends instead of fans... friend do things for each other like come to shows.. buy cds talk about you...

if youre going to "overdo something simply make more music... more cds more people see you as a force to be reckoned with

and that shows you are a serious band or muso and these days you dont have to wait til the cd burns it self out... you CAN make as much music as you want....

Barking loudly (and constantly) is almost like the downside of "crying wolf"....

you've got something important to say, but no one is listening!!

Derek...you're the best!!!

(I'm whispering..can you hear me?? - let's see if it works..

Ask me about my senior Olympics basketball team... and our theme song I wrote)

i also fdind that people who deman you listen to their music and then want an instant answer on 'how did you like it?" some things take time to grow roots on your "taste buds"

sometimes in my case a year or so,,,meanwhile just keep writing recording and selling cds- cdbaby has been a great way for me to do that..they are insitlling a noew policy for cds that havent osld in a year but the warehouse is chock full.. when i started with them it wasnt....

"Self-promotion" for a poet is a tough fence to straddle for some of us. I have close friends that are extremely gifted, talk and write of their honors and accomplishements in a way that seems as natural as breathin' air. For some of us, no matter the sincerity...the word "audacious" comes to mind.

"Barking" holds a few keys we could all put to use.

Thanks.

Great article Derek.

an old school stand up comedian told me the same thing a 1,000 years ago. He said that when the crowd was too loud in the room rather than try to talk over it he spoke softer and softer until the room quieted and it usually worked. had their attention and he carried on with his show. We can apply this to the songs we write and song order on a CD. Always let the song breath and the song order as well. Stop the barking.

I agree with the smarter not louder. The only problem many of us have is that we don't always clarify the smarter or follow that path.

ok, agreed, but then what is a non-barking solution that works?

First, if I had a better manner to give those coupons away, I would advise whoever was "barking" of the better way which would also please whoever hired the person because people would be showing up with the coupons he was handing out. (A better manner might be handing them to folks as they approach and "personally" state what it is they are being handed).

I have to assume the marketer who hired this person did not have an application to fill. Was, most likely,a street person, maybe homeless. I'm assuming a lot there but that's what it sounds like to me. I don't really see a connection for musician's selling their works. The "band" front man "barks" from the stage "clap your hands!", "Want to rock tonight!", etc. This always works. "updating a MySpace bulletin" (mentioned previously) I don't consider that disturbing. THAT'S ALL FOLKS! :)

I am off to the forest to whisper to the trees...and if there is something they want to hear... will they answer with their leaves? or is it the wind?

why do we want art and music to stop speaking for itself?

On rare occasions, I bark like a dog in restaurants. Just a real quick high shrill doggie bark. Try it sometime. It's pretty funny. Everyone is looking around to see where the dog is, who let it in. It embarrasses my family, so I don't do it very often, but they get a kick out of telling stories about their crazy mother who barks in restaurants.

Good point Derek, and thanks again for your continued effort.

I'll try meowing for awhile...

Rex

@ Michael Hardin: I see your point, but don't agree that a bad impression is better than no impression at all. I can tell you that I don't remember the names of the aforementioned barkers I've deleted, and there really haven't been that many. There's a line, and they'd crossed it for me. That's all.

Aren't YOU Barking? Barking at that man who barks? We all bark. We all bark really really loud. LIKE SLIMY insurance sales people. Start that record company! Vinyl is back. Fill the racks with some records. And around, and around we go, where it stops nobody knows.

ike the man in the park, or on the street, maybe we can’t tell if we are ‘barking’ and of course no one will come close enough to let us know!

Innnteresting. Great point! Any suggestions, anyone? — Derek

This comes to mind: Do I notice anyone paying attention to me when I try to be noticed? I don't really. I must be barking. I get noticed when I don't plan it but I do expect it. I lay the groundwork but must trust that my intentions will bear good fruit. I have to stay away from doubt. I have to know and practice the laws of attraction and listen to my inner guide. A new world is being created and we are it. This new world is inside each one of us and as we wake up to it the outside world will reflect that.

Its a great point. Its like when the second set of a concert in a jazz club starts. People is talking loud. If you start playing also loud then it will become more a competition of who is louder and people will just not get that the concert continues. Instead, if the band start playing in a lower volume than the audience, it will evidence that they are louder than the music, and they will very probably low their voices and pay attention.

wish someone would share this with the g'zillion new artist websites that host "vote driven" contests. How many times can you ask a fan to vote ? Is the contest about the talent anymore, absolutely not, I won't submit my artist anymore as its cumbersome and in some cases demeaning to enter them and worse to ask the fan to vote, just a thought, and BTW, its really not cool to broadcast yourself on someone else's myspace page by sending them a comment that advertises the sender, not the artist's page that's being commented on. We need some web-artist ediquate

There is a Big Difference beweeeeeen Barking and doing! Have any of you ever really give any thing from your self to beneifit the needy in either donating your time with your music or in donating any of your own money to help others!

In Tokyo shop-keepers stand on crowded streets with megaphones, everybody all at once. The noise pollution is unreal. Could be why everybody is so self-absorbed and does't notice anything around them.

This is GREAT Derek, thanks for sharing....D

a high percentage of artists following an aesthetic muse are not very adroit at publicising themselves. when corporate barkers appear to be generating interest for higher-profile, mainstream artists, we sometimes mistake that form of self promo as an important way to become better recognized ourselves when the key is actually just becoming better performers and playing more often.

You got it right Derek, people can be too pushy when sometimes diplomacy and background marketing works

Good example. I always teach my clients that it's most effective to get their message across in a less intrusive, but still clear and pointed way. When we do benefits for various causes, the message is not preached from the stage, but presented in a printed program book which people can read when and how they want. We also provide a literature and info table in the lobby (near the free snacks that we provide, which of course attracts people). We find it much more effective than preaching from the stage. I'll be teaching a workshop on this topic at the Indiegrrl conference in Nashville, Aug 21-22. See http://www.lunchensemble.com.

If any of you are there, please introduce yourselves.

Bill Pere

Founder and Executive Director, LUNCH

President and Executive Director, CT Songwriters Association

IMC Indie Artist of the Year

An Official Connecticut State Troubadour since '95

Director, CT Songwriting Academy

Author, "Songcrafters' Coloring Book: The Essential Guide to Effective and Successful Songwriting"

http://www.billpere.com

http://www.lunchensemble.com

http://www.ctsongs.com

http://www.ctsongwriting.com

http://www.songcrafterscoloringbook.com

"One of the Top 50 Guiding Lights of the Music Industry" - Music Connection Magazine"

so THE MOUSE did not roar....??

One must do the sublime to the ridiculous to get noticed!!

keep on keepin on

rough ruff rufffffooof!

Great analogy, Derek! Everyone should be able to relate to that!

You are just too brilliant!

Keep smiling!

Carole

Great food for introspective thought! Thanks! It's the old yogic balancing act: self-effort/surrender.

http://www.soulcalls.org

(Music Meditations for mystics and other lovers of God)

Great point! When public speaking is the venue, they say that the best way to grab the attention of your audience is to whisper. But how, with electronic social networking the venue, does one 'whisper' electronically?

Kinda' like the old tale . . .

2 bulls,(father & son) are on a hill looking down on a heard of cows.

The son bull says, "Dad, let's run down the hill and fuck one of those cows!'' . . .

Dad says, ''I got a better idea son, let's WALK down there and fuck 'em all!''

~~~~~~~ L A M M Y ~~~~~~~

It's the difference between surgery with the right tools or with a chainsaw. Sure, the chainsaw may make an incision, but how much additional damage will have to be repaired?

Good points Derek. Rock on!

It's always going to be duality. For example the adage 'those who do no know speak: those who know do not speak'

Right you are, Derek. A quiet understated approach commands much greater attention. Just as the music softens... we open to hear more.

Very true analysis Derek!

Like when the guy was "barking" on the streets and everyone crossed or avoided him. The spammers who "bark" all day in my emails are avoided by getting sent straight to bulk and then...deleted.

Sorry for the typo. The first instance of the word no should be not.

Jeri Goldstein had a good point that marketing should be about what can they (the fans in this case) get from you not what can we get from them. I think the short answer it that everyone wants to be loved- treat them with love and they will love you back.

My favorite comic strip is, was and always will be Larson. One of my favorite Larson sketches of all time is the man yelling at his dog, Ginger. He says,'No, Ginger. Bad dog, Ginger. Don't eat my socks, Ginger. Stop barking, Ginger. Then the caption says,"What the dog hears: Blah, blah, blah, Ginger. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, Ginger.

It's kind of why I stopped even trying to edit the comments on our Myspace page from every band promoting their next show, single, new bit of press. It's just noise.

I hate it when people bark at me. Knowing not to bark is the easy part.

The hard part is figuring out what to do instead.

Derek, great post.

I think barking is occasionally effective, as long as it's in very small amounts, and possibly at a given time, and carefully thought out. No matter how intelligent and well-meaning, constant screaming and/or nagging is, it is usually blocked out. Think of the cliches: the annoying spouse, the kid who wants something from parents, etc.

I think the reason "barking" is so ineffective is because so many people do it. Anyone can yell... Instead you need to make it an experience for those passing by. (ex.) The fair doesn't come too often, but when it does!!! =)

You got a point Derek. We need to attract and not repel. I think subtlety comes into it somewhere. God bless.

Michael J Ramplin

HEY!!!! YOU GOTTA READ THIS!!!!

just kidding

I agree, shouting is annoying.... except when your life depends on it

The art of carnival barking has evidently devolved considerably since its heyday, which is a shame since the combination of syncopated street poetics and transparent sleaze was hard to beat for pure, free entertainment.

The 'feed the homeless' guy may not have been a Madison Ave. master of the universe, but he got your attention, didn't he?

Very good information. Very true. "Smarter not louder". Thanks for the article, Derek. Peace.

Wired barking has become so commonplace that it does have an off putting effect. My inbox is packed with email from people screaming at me to get rich quick. First, the emails were long and dreary - but quiet. Then as technology expanded, I got voice email. YouTube started the chic video and maybe next R2D2 will project a hologram.

Getting attention takes time. When I worked at the WTC in the 80's there was a locksmith at the 5WTC entrance. Every day he smiled. I smiled back. Eventually, he waved, I waved back. No matter what he was doing he would know I was there because I paused in my rush to catch his eye because I had come to rely on his smile or wave. The Trade Center had many doors and employees constantly lost them. Guess which locksmith I went to?

"barking the same high constant monotone pitch (an F that falls to a D at the end of each sentence.)"

I love exact descriptions like this. I can totally hear that sound.

The lesson I can take from this, now that I think about it, isn't really about Volume or non-Volume..

but the fact that there's no chance to build a relationship with any one person when you're yelling at a whole crowd of them, and therefore no real way to do business. Each person has to be treated like they are the only one that matters. Yelling at a bunch of people in a busy street necessarily sends the message that each person there isn't really that special.

Derek is right, there are no short-cuts to building a meaningful releationship!!

ha.

Its one thing to bark in the wind, but when I say I am going to do something I mean that I am going to do it, and I usally do!

When will people realize that in this overcrowded society its time to turn the megaphone around and become a part of the conversation instead of shouting and barking at the crowd - start a conversation and spread the word virally

Somewhat related: I started to read through all the comments here, but after the first few, I found myself reading the short ones and skipping the long ones.

Food for thought. :)

hey derek, you have mentioned this in your tutorials on CD babay as well...though not so much in a direct way..we all have learnt it tough..andthis point definitely makes a mark in all our heads...

greets from india..

keep on keeping on!

adi

That is EXACTLY why I ALWAYS muted Billy Mays' commercials. (RIP)

Price, product, or location. If it isn't selling it's probably one of those. I'd say the hawker/barker is in the wrong location. We've all heard, "Programs, t-shirts!" and we've probably all bought,every time, even when they were illegally silk screened, and even if some of the guys said the girl was like one of those dolls where you pull the string and it delivers the same message over and over? Same at football games. I'd say the Union Square barker is just... barking up the wrong tree.

Genny

Great point! MEMORABLE WAY TO GET THAT POINT ACROSS AS WELL...

I'm actually finding the feedback section after each of your fairly simplistic examples to be the most interesting aspect of these daily emails, Derek. Your customers/clients/friends/however you label us have interesting and unique viewpoints and aren't afraid to voice their opinions, which is what makes this so valuable.

I find the contrast between your story about Tom Williams (who funded his later career with sales of chocolate bars, hawked one by one on the street) with these other two street buskers to be interesting. Tom wasn't afraid to go right up to people streaming by and talk about how good his product was and gave them a chance to do something immediately gratifying, whereas these two examples were shouting their lungs out and not paying attention to their results.

In many ways I found both of these stories sad. Tom was in such a hurry to bypass the school system and get earning "real" money, that he didn't learn how to manage his cash stream once he had it coming in. By the time he was no longer "The Kid," he wasn't really ahead of his peers from school, and they had those paper degrees that look so good on resumes and he didn't. So who's smarter? I don't know. Sometimes you just have to try an idea (whether shouting OR whispering) and see what happens. If you don't like the results, try something different. Read, read, read and keep asking questions.

Thank you, Derek, for giving all these great artists a forum for discussion!

Jackie Britton Lopatin

I taught 6th grade for 5 years in a Title 1 school in Los Angeles. My first year I always tried to get my students to listen to me by trying to talk over them. Very ineffective. It made them get louder. It did nothing to get them to listen.

My first summer after that school year, I saw an interview with actor Will Wheaton talking about the movie "Stand by Me" in which he played a lead role as a kid (I think his character was 12 or so). The climax scene has him holding Kiefer Sutherland's character (who was 18 or so) at gunpoint.

Wheaton said he kept yelling his lines at the Sutherland's character at first, but Rob Reiner (who directed the film) took him aside and told him that if someone is confident and in charge, they don't have to raise their voice. They can be completely calm, and others will listen because of their confidence...Because they are in charge. In that scene Wheaton almost whispers the line: "No Ace. I'm just gonna shoot you."

My next 4 years of teaching, I would never address my class as a whole unless it was completely silent (and my additional rule was that everyone's eyes had to be on my eyes). If there was one kid whispering as I was about to talk, they stuck out like a sore thumb, and would stop immediately. The only time I raised my voice, was to make something a little bit more dramatic when reading them a good story.

When the problem kids got out of line, I would talk to them in the hallway, and would refuse to talk above a whisper. In a very short amount of time, all students knew that they were in trouble in my class, when I started whispering to them. You can't imagine the amount of effort this technique saved me.

After that, I could focus on what I needed to: what I was actually going to say once I had their attention!

; )

Actually it is not how loud or how soft but rather the lack of originality. If you say something over and over, you should add new words every now and then to see if people are actually listening.

Also funny is better then the same boring words.If your selling something come up with a funny add to make people laugh so they will remember your product better and they might buy it just because you made them smile.

When I perform on State street instead of performing the same songs over and over sometimes if people start ignoring me I start singing about what their shirt says just to catch their attention.

"He who has something to sell and goes and whispers in a well, is not as apt to get the dollars as he who climbs a tree and hollers"

But true Derek, if you do scream the place down people would tend to avoid you. There is a way to get across without scaring the crap out of people

Zeppelin never barked. They created intrigue by keeping a low profile in the media, and promoting the music on stage. Let the music speak, let people have space and privacy and don't push the music upon them...bait them and reel them in like fish when they are hooked. Don't let them down when you have their attention, give it 100% always and create something live and in the studio that is unique in your own way. Everyone can bark, who can speak loudly with silence, like a true artist who communicates through art. The only sound... the music.

Vince Meghrouni (#21): since most readers here are probably musicians, it's not necessarily showing off (as you imply) to identify two pitches by name. It helped me to know what kind of voice the person was using.

How to promote without over-promoting? This is all shades of gray.

Everyone's threshold is different, and what seems obnoxious and tasteless to some might be just the ticket for others.

Billy Mays is a prime example - he was wildly successful at moving product simply because he was loud, brash, and took no prisoners.

For a Rap or Pop artist seeking mass appeal, this approach of barking might just be perfect.

For those seeking to promote more quiet, reflective music, what are our choices?

Well, I got involved with a local state park and started a music festival there eight years ago. Once a year it makes a nice friendly venue, and music sales for any new cds are, if not massive, at least gratifying.

Just one idea - if you can't FIND a venue, CREATE some.

Derek,

Have you ever noticed that clubs often amp up the stage volume to such a point that the overall volume level is unplesant and the lyrics are indecernable? It' no wonder that audiences get to where they talk right thru the performances. After all, even if no one was talking, they couldn't "hear" the performer(s) anyway. There's a major difference between raising the volume a few dbs to re-enforce the sound and assaulting peoples ear drums....At proper levels music is entertainment. At abusive levels, it's barking...T.

Like the old addage: If you throw enough lines in the stream you will end up catching one. Well maybe you will but if you bait your hook with the right bait, then your odds are better. ARF-ARF

Terry P

Great advice, but it's tricky to know when your promoting smarter or barking louder.

Hi Derek......I met you here when you were in Toronto a few years back.....YEs i think your point is a valid one..you cant bark it or flog it to loud cause it just annoys people...Chuck Page

We opened our site about six weeks ago; we're averaging about 70 visitors a day from 52 countries but mostly from the US and most return at least a 2nd time. We've promoted the site largely by making what I hope are well-written and intelligent comments about subjects where we feel we have something to contribute to the conversation. All this traffic has not however produced a lot of sales. I think the novelty of the site itself rather than the content is drawing visitors, which is to say I don't believe we're reaching our people... our tribe... yet. We still need to keep doing what we're doing, but we have to get better at finding where our people are.

How many of us have ever lived next to a neighbor who's dog barked and barked non-stop? For those of us who can still hear - please stop the barking!

Robert

Barkers work pretty good for strip clubs, I see clubs with great musicians playing and there s three people there , the strip club next door is packed. So that tells me I should start playin naked.

Uh huh. But when Ian Gillan or Steven Tyler scream I drop everything and listen. Of course if I would scream about whose hair brush and other crap are in my boyfriends car, I'd be wasting my breath, damaging my throat and in the WRONG location.

Gen

Well I'd prefer a meow myself ...I'd hear a meow in a sea of barking because that's where my mind would be focused. I just think its more effective to narrow your focus and go find your niche, or the people you know will already listen to you.

When I lived in Seattle 15 years ago, there was always people sitting along the street on University avenue asking for spare change right in front of my apartment. On payday, I would take several one dollar bills and hand them out to the beggers on the street. I enjoyed seeing their face light up for that ONE dollar which would get them a slice a pizza back in those days!

Its a great feeling inside to help others and if Everyone thought this way we could fight homelessness together.

All of this is very , very, interesting, no doubt !!!

It must be better to get out and play in the park. I did this in my early teens and had many a coin tossed into the hat or guitar case and then play later that night for real pay.

I also met a fine guitarist by playing dockside in Nantucket Island while waiting for the ferry after a gig and ended up playing an hour and a half on the return trip with Jonathan Juanito Pascual a very gifted Flamenco guitarist. Once mainside I sat in with some friends and played til 2am at their gig.

It don't seem like it hurt Stanley Jordon who played on the sidewalks of NYC and was next on Carson showing off his two handed tap.

I guess what I am saying is if you believe in your music, let the music do the talking and see what your audience thinks and tweak it from there.

Yes, Derek, we, English, don't like people who are 'barking' Best avoided, in fact Glad you picked that up in London

Come back soon! Thanks for wisdom passed on & greetings from the Titcombe clan

Good point.

If you bark, people probably won't like you. If they don't like you, you probably won't sell them.

On the other hand, if you figure out a way to help them, they will like you.

Then you CAN sell them...so shut up and help them.

"Helping is selling and selling is helping."

--Brian Tracy

(My favorite sales coach.)

Good point.

There's an art in knowing WHEN to bark, when to bite, and when to just "mind" and observe.

When my dog barks at every car that passes our house, I don't notice when she's signally an actual suspicious intruder.

But if she doesn't bark sometimes...same scenario.

Make sure to be good before you preach doing good. Nothing more tiresome than a complete wanker bragging about all the good they've done, just before they hose somebody else in a business deal!

So right.

This Should go to the top of the page. Not the bottom. There's one.

Derek,

The two examples you give remind me of the oft quoted definition of insanity: Doing the same exact thing over and over, expecting a different result.

I've found that if my message isn't reaching the audience, whether it be a sales pitch, technical explanation, or a song lyric, I try to change it and hone it until I'm successful. Increasing the repetitions or raising the volume doesn't make someone understand it any better.

The 'hard sell," right?

Salvidor Dali threw a brick through a window during an exhibition in one of his galleries, he spent two days in jail for this...nevertheless the gallery went from almost empty to packed out every week...

My point is: A message voiced too loudly can seem insane even off putting, nevertheless actions can also be loud. I believe we must establish boundaries and push these boundaries as far as we can without loosing integrity...being too loud in some cultures is seen as a weakness and can be likened to bluffing...nevertheless there is a time to shout...I have nigerians and italians in my family working in a resturant so i know that shouting can be useful in context..lol

great post as always!!

Pure Parable. Blessings.

Derek,

Great point!

I've managed musicians in the past that were annoying listeners by talking themselves up instead of letting their music or lyric's do it for them. I've made some enimies due to pointing out their faults, but most singer/songwriters took what I've said and used it to improve their situations. I should know, I made the same mistakes during my early enetertaining years and learned from my mistakes. Now I just manage one singer/songwriter and play guitars in the studio and on stage for her, due to I'm not a good singer and I know it. Managing, Co-writing songs and playing guitars for other singers is what I'm best at. Find what you're good at in the music field and stick to it, don't try and be the whole package if you're not. Stop pissin' in the wind and get over yourself.

I live in Puerto Rico whre barking is a way of life.

There is a small religous center down the street and I can hear the pastor yelling so loud as to be unintelligible. Around election time cars come by with loudspeakers turned up to ear shattering levels. My first response is "Hey I ain't gonna vote for that dude"--complete turnoff. Or how about the TV stations where the commercials are 100% louder than the program Instant response is to push the mute buttons so that if the sponsor had a valid message, it was totally lost

Love B

I Felt it but you found the words..

this is why its inportant to stay elegant..

this weekend i gave my funs at facebook , few songs to downlowed ..only for the weekend..

That was cool:)

Very well Spoken!!!!

I PLAY AT CHURCH EVERY SUNDAY OR PRACTIC AT HOME SOMETIME AT A FRIEND HOUSE. IT'S NOT ABOUT THE MONEY, I JUST LET EVERYTHING FALL WHAT MAY.I HAVE MADE A LOT'S OF FRIEND THROUGH-OUT THE U.S.A. SO WHO NEED A LOT'S OF MONEY ANYWAY.LIFE IS GOOD AT 71. ALL YOU GOT TO DO IS JUST BE A GOOD PERSON.

Derek do you have perfect pitch?

It is tricky thing, judging barking. Marylin Manson does a lot of things that are kind of like barking, he is very loud.And some people are attracted to his goofy brand of happy excitement.

When you are in a crowd of 1000000 and you think that you have something special sometimes maybe a tiny bark might get some eyeballs turned your direction. But the obvious points made in the article are hard to fight. People do run from barking. Perhaps we should define the proper method as "singing".

The issues are different based on the degree of access to people. Examples like Led Zep have no meaning because they have already been given more than enough tools to succeed. The demonstration of mastery is to take an absolute unknown and raise them up to well known status. The only caveat is that the music MUST be special, not typical or mundane. There should be a magic that rewards the people that are lead to the prize.

A fun question would be, how does a person find a team of people that enjoy building recognition for the sport of it. Or maybe you could offer each one of them a dollar.

Great article Derek,

I've been paying close attention to how people tend to communicate and for the most part it isn't very good, a lot of talk first and think later.

I've been reading a lot of different books about the brain. 1) Brain Rules. 2) The Talent Code and Outliers. All are really good and tend to focus on focus and clarity and training.

On the Barking aspect, I think Apple has found a way to market in a concise and respectful way, Also brilliant !

But, the product HAS to be great,

No use in trying to sell something ( ourselves) that isn't great.

Thanks Derek,

Best wishes,

Eric petersen

Brilliant POV Derek. Total Genius.

I am at that point now where I need to think smarter and not louder. making more noise just doesn't keep folks around...

Mykel

I did enjoy this post…personally I like the kitty cat approach. Purring is much more palatable…

Speak to me softly

and I will lend an ear

Shout at me loudly

and I will not hear

I will watch your words

If they fly by slow

Slingshot them at me

and I will surely go

Silly?

right on.

let your music do the "barking" :>)

I have always believed that passively getting your point across is the best way. Helping others will always get you farther than helping yourself.

Sometimes our own internal (mental) barking cancels out the true pain (behind the bark) of others. Take time to hear their music.

Charlie "august rush" Sneller

This is a powerful point and I will remember this

thank you so much.

Great point Derek. Worse still, there is barking at the wrong crowd, who'd never be interested in whatever you're selling.

But, ironically, barking in this part of the world actually sells. People will flock to where a barking person, if only to see what's being sold. Over here, we even have vans with big blaring loudspeakers which move around selling anything from DVDs to cakes! Lol!

I often find myself barking at my two boys, "nooooo, don't do that!", when i should probably be saying, honey, the way we do it is ...this..must always reign in the instinct to bark, its offensive to everyone, even my boys, who sometimes are close to doing something very harmful! As for sales, i think the thing that really helps people is when you "listen to their needs", like can you make the vocal speak more? and make it happen...that makes them very happy indeed.

Barking dogs can best be calmed by putting our dog meditation CD on whenever you leave your dog alone at home... Go to www.satoridog.com for samples!

Ever watch an American give directions to a lost person who doesn't speak English? When they realize they aren't getting through, they TEND. TO. SPEAK. ENGLISH. LOUDER. AND. MORE SLOWLY. WITH. EXAGGERATED. MOUTH. MOOOVEMENTS. as if that will somehow bestow the ability to understand English on the foreign tourist. We all have a tendency to repeat things that don't work, only harder and faster, if we have been taught they are SUPPOSED to work.

That's when talking turns into barking. If the same thing hasn't worked several times in a row, time to try something different.

IMHO. Thanks for a fun post, Derek.

great stuff!

Its funny the responses to this article, how everyone has their own take on what the message or advice conveys. Seems like we all want to find the magic formula that will bring success so that we'll know that we're not wasting our time. Thusday night I was at the American Legion hall playing my songs in front of two people and I had their attention for that three minute interval. Did they buy a CD? No. Does it matter? No. Later, on the way out, the guy stopped by where I was sitting and told me how much he enjoyed the music.

I'm a Londoner born and bred and never heard of 'Barking' as meaning mad. Who have you been mixing with, Derek??

Victor

People who have said it about you behind your back. :-) — Derek

Barkers-R-Us (sometimes and with restraint) but we've seen it work and not work -

Works: 1. When it's not the same cut-n-paste, variety makes it appear more spontanious. (or, toward the original monotone analogy, change the bark-riff each time...)

2. When each bark has a different topic or slant, i.e., we post a new song to several different sites - one bark per post.

Doesn't Work: 1. When it's poorly spelled or hasty or cut-n-paste dittos or offensive or insulting or mis-targeted

2. When it is ALL you do on that site, i.e., sign in, brak a blog or a bulletin, sign out, go to next site. We take specific interest in every friend we have on each site (we have 400+ profiles) and since we have a small niche fan base, this works right now - - as we grow, we'll employ folks to man the boards because 'touching' a fan/friend in a meowing way thru the web is easy when you know their birthdays, their school, their favorite bands, their buddies - mine it for those unique twists you can use to revise your bark into more of a friendly shout from across a crowed parking lot when seeing someone you've not seen in a while -

Keep in mind that with the 'teletype' stream that social networks employ for your 'updates' - depending on the size of your base, most barks disappear in a few short minutes - to test if you're over-barking - go to the 'home' or feed summary and see if you have more than one bark in that page's worth - if so, muzzle it - -

If you've actually read this whole rant-reply, then I owe it to you to validate the source (example of masked barking in the guise of sincere concern for transparency) - we are humbly 30 years indie, and very barked out...or are we? You tell us - - ;-D by checking our bark quota here:

http://www.facebook.com/citadelband

or http://www.myspace.com/citadelsongs

Look at the times, dates, responses to the various barks - some do seem a bit beagle-esque to us...

Citadel ®

Always thinking! That's what I like about you, Derek!

...both cream AND scum rise to the top.... of course, they taste different but that's a further step in investigation.

MY songs have limited appeal. I'd like to think it was limited to this Universe, humanity and a few alien races but my Intergalactic radio station is silent so far ... or perhaps 'reception' is poor in this neighbourhood.

Point is - THIS is what I have to offer and share and if the response is not what I'd like then perhaps the songs aren't that good.

Again - most of us don't give up our passion just because the material rewards aren't forthcoming.

At 58 I've discovered the wonderful Griff Hamlin and his '4 note blues' and FINALLY I'm starting to work my fingers and - 'djer know what? - if I apply myself to gaining clarity with the individual notes then the plectrum 'sort of' takes care of itself.

This is very heartening and sometimes soothes the barking dogs next door.... if not, I can always hurl a bone in their general direction :)

If you put this in the perspective or Mark Joyner's "irresistible offer" I would say that the delivery of the message lacked credibility because of the person communicating the message. But..

However I think that it is important to note that the actual message contains all the elements of a great offer - what and how much are you trying to sell me, and what is in it for me.

Peace,

Dan-O

Sometimes obnoctious and loud is just that a deturant.

Jason

Hi Derek,

Good comment, and very true, but I agree with another post I saw here indicating there is a fine line to walk between barking and adequate promoting. Sometimes the balance tips in a particular situation, and what is called for there. The hardest part is recognizing how much and when, although I agree with you as a general rule less is more.

Hi Derek,

This may seem off topic at first, but really it isn't! I found it very interesting that the pitch of the second barker was a fall from F to D -- this is a universal element of lament... A drop of a minor third is about what it takes to release a sigh or a cry. (Yeah, I studied this in grad school many years ago...) It may have been a good release for him even if it didn't result in getting food or money for food. He'd be more successful if he said "Feed the homeless" in an upward melodic motion, even in a major triad -- posing a question, that could make a person stop and at least say "pardon?" rather than move as far away from the tortured soul as they could get. I guess I'm suggesting that in addition to excessive volume, intonation that says "I'm defeated and down" will push people away. So, in our whispering, as we present our art to the world, we can think about posing cheery questions rather than letting our statements drop that minor third.

Interesting analogy but lets remember that there is also the problem of barking up the wrong tree.

i think you have to be barking to be in nyc by choice ... but good point.

Yes, when a "stimulus" is relatively novel, it gets your attention. When its the same old thing (even from the same source!), we tune it out ("habituate" to it). Slimy over selling sucks.

Aloha, Doug

good point Verlene, and while off topic as well, this may lend support to that theory:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmdAF4ihedM

I learned from my days of running political campaigns that you are best served by relentlessly identifying likely supporters and ruthlessly herding them to their assigned polling places.

the opportunity cost wasted when unsuccessfully pitching an idea to an entity that is unlikely to buy is bigger than you think it is.

ID. Follow-up. Win.

YAY!!!!!!

nothing worse than making people yell for their needs.

i think you are spot on here... eventually, people tune out the bark... and go away....

important to connect with people...meaningful mutual connections.

so many people/marketers are only interested in making a "buck", selling their song... more and more people are tuning this way of transaction out.

Very true.I have found that the creative thinker will be a survivor of not only a recession but also in life.

Hmmm... not too much to add, we all have so much to learn, after all we're here to write and perform music, we don't know how to market the songs, at least not I...

Like crying "Wolf." The end of the world will be God coming back to end commercials! LOL There is nothing worse than being intensionally(sp) ignored, though. Just ask the youngest of any family. I had quite a time of it when I first got on line. I take the time to listen at least once to people to find out what they are about, then I can decide what I want to do about the info being presented.

I think the best way to get folks to pay attention to you is to use,musical instrument! let the music do the talking for you.

When I went to Disneyland one time,I heard steel drums being played with some other insterments in Creole Band they had guy out front barking his song out to the crowd.

it was the steel drum that had that mesmerizing effect on me!

I never forgot it to this day!

Some the old Blues films I see on You Tube,they shout the Blues out,like old southern hell fire preacher barks out his sermon on Sunday morning at his congregation; those days are long gone.

we are way to politically correct for that today to respect much of anything except the world view! after all right?

Derek, you can say that again! Today was the first day of the Omaha/Council Bluffs/Bellevue area's ragtime festival, "Ragtime to Riches." (It's an annual fundraiser for a different nonprofit organization.) Today, only three people showed up for two concerts- total. It's been a struggle to get the word out for a music many Americans have pushed aside (despite the fact that every succeeding form of pop music to come out of America owes at least something to ragtime...and, yes, that includes hip-hop!).

Still, the third person to make it to this year's festival (we hold the fest at a college campus; it was once held at a church) had some GREAT ideas for getting the word out. CAN'T WAIT TO IMPLEMENT THEM!!

Yell in... whisper to the world.

e

Very nice article. Reminds me of a joke my dad used to tell.

Two southern ladies were on the porch and one of the ladies was bragging.

Jenny: My husband just bought me a brand new diamond ring, cuz' he loves me Sooo much.

Belle simply replies 'Das Nice.'

Jenny: And my husband loves me so much, he's gonna take me all over Europe this Summer.

Belle simply replies 'Das Nice.'

Jenny: And my husband just bought me a brand new Mercedes, not too mention he's great in bed.

Belle simply replies 'Das Nice.'

Jenny: Well shit Belle, what's your husband ever done for you?

Belle: My husband sent me to finishin' school so I could learn to say 'Das Nice' instead of 'Fuck You.'

I think there is a slight jealousy towards musicians, singers, songwriters. In one aspect we want the world to hear and feel us. We want to light the stage and touch the world, matter, maybe make a difference. And sure, we all want loads of success and maybe to become the next best thing.

I've had some that love my work, some that hate it, and I've had those people that look at me like 'think you're somethin' special, don't cha?'.

I don't think people realize the time, money, and dedication involved. But if you just stepped off of American Idol or America's got talent, they are all over you.

In Vegas, there are always rappers on the Strip or on the streets passing out their fliers, promoting their album. Most of the marketing ends up in the trash or all over the sidewalks next to the Call Girl Cards. I see this and think to myself, 'Wow, that was money well spent...'

Personally, I think that's why it's best to have someone else promote (if you can afford it, and if their any good). I don't seem to have either right now...LOL!

I don't take selling albums very seriously and maybe I should. Maybe after I finish this next project, dive in to the wonderful world of marketing. I just enjoy making new music and the feeling of accomplishing a new project.



Anyhow Derek, Sorry to ramble. Thanks for the read.

Jason

The loud and repetitious days are tired and gone. An artist friend just mentioned to me the other day that there's so much email marketing that the only way for people to remember what you're doing is to continue to send more and more emails. A little voice said to me " Then they'll REALLY ignore you". It's all about creating a unique and interesting approach for getting yourself and your music marketed.

ok ...poeple will get the message

from you ..some of us think of you

as a poineer in music marketing ,the key to your success

you are a person who plan everything ...i was in the union square too ..just went there was happy i did not have to sing on the street anymore or tell every one hey i'm luko adjaffi love me and my music ..i always have humanity in me ...the man on the corner is just trying to promote the wong or good way his product

www.lukoadjaffi.com

If someone adds me as a "friend" , I should act as if I want to win that artist's freindship and keep it , not just to grab the opportunity to use the page as free ad-space .

First , I listen to the artist's music , and give my honest impression , if I like it . After making the connection to that artist sincerely about them , I will post only an important item as promotion once in a great while , not often , and certainly not a huge display with autmatic music that plays over your own music on your page .

These networking sites give us the opportunity to behave like real people who might just actually make frends , but many don't know anyting about that .

Thanks kindly , Mark

"Good common sense", in his case it should have been "Sell don't Yell"

Yea thats the way it is for sure....

I would have to argue that musicians and professionals in the business be very cautious about their perception of "the barker." Maybe their presentation is rough, but their message is true, just and might actually be a good deal for you as musician; this, based on philosophy of Michel Eyquem De Montaigne (1533-1592)who made an argument in defense of cannibalism: "Each man calls barbarism whatever is not his own practice"..."respect for barbarous peoples and admiration for much of their culture based on an understanding of their motives." When you judge a person, you must first put yourself in her/his place and develop an understanding for that person's motives. The barking man had no food, like many others in the homeless of New York. Should he starve because he barks? Of course not; Jesus said, "Feed the hungry." Don't miss out on a good deal because of someone's lack of tactfull approach. In addition, a person's true honest needs come first. Feed the man, and he'll stop "barking."

However, in defense of Derek's argument, he has an exceptionally good point. I'm a Radio Producer, and when I'm on the air I am very careful concerning tone and amplification of my voice. Jocks who use an unnatural distorted voice presentation are called "screamers" and they are just like "barkers." They think they have to be something other than what they are, and it comes across as nervious, unnatural and not so easy to trust. Your eyes reflect your Spirit; you voice, is your Spirit. It is here that you will find direction and the perception of truth, and the peace of mind; a tranquil state of being where "barking" is not an option. When I hear a person "barking" I sense a Spiritual pain. Again, you have brought-up an excellent point, Derek. Thank you!

Derek, as of today, I will meow :-)

Now seriously, your message is brilliant. Not because I bark, but because I run away from "barking" people. I sell my music because of it's quality, good distribution and a prudent promotion that makes economical sense. You may find me at www.gelbardjazz.com my personal Myspace site.

Yes I have bark but my bark was bigger than my bite, so now I softly introduce! HuH?

When the going gets tough, put on the headphones and start recording.... :)

Barking... I began to sing and play guitar as a child street singer. My dad was a barking preacher. What we lacked in skill we made up for in enthusiasm. I often thought he and I were barking to the wind and the parking meters. People just seemed to walk on by. But now and then as I sang my little songs I saw a tear on someones cheek and knew they had heard me. Now I sing with gusto and watch for a smile or a tear. My book is called The Strange Life of Anna Prince, by Prince, www.PublishAmerica.com

F that falls to a D....Man you must have great ears to id these pitches from a 20 story building.I think they call that been born with perfect pitch ;and its true barking mad in London means you're nuts :-)

Great point! I've seen quite a lot of people update their status and send bulletins at MySpace, Facebook and Twitter even though nothing really interesting has happened. I try to never update until I have something that might be interesting to say. But like someone said, in some cases it's hard to know if you're barking or not.

marketing - communicate to largest audience.

let us not forget elvis & Colonel Tom Parker who paraded an elephant downtown promoting elvis at the local fair.

barking, I agree, a fine line between an effect campain and the borders of sanity,

almost like comedy, close to the edge of acceptability

Interesting, alot of people have that on facebook or myspace, and of course they get deleted.

Derek ! Your barking again ! LOL !

Very good advice . Keep them comimg !

Love it...Staying calm and being wise...thinking before talking are all the trades we should have and that can support Derek's article, I believe.

Hello Derek,

If you're going to the trouble of working out the notes that someone yells in, I'd normally say that you should get out more... but you do, so I'm not sure how I can help you here.

On the other hand, I've gone to the trouble of commenting on the fact so maybe I should get out more!

Cute, Sometimes you do feel like barking. "I'm here, what I have is good, please listen". Thanks for the advise to be smarter. Loved your blog today, creative, crafty.

Dawn

Dear Derek:

Credibility. You can bark, but you better have teeth, because sooner or later the big dog might come.

Thank you for this, Derek. Being a human being who is easily over stimulated and very sensitive, I tend to shy away from barking - which includes the "over-emailing campaigns" that come from other artists.

I also tend to stay away from clubs, but once upon a time went to see Iron and WIne here in Nashville. I was so very delighted because the delivery of the performance was very subtle, and I found it inviting and peaceful. During the middle of the show some folks in the back of the club where starting to get too noisy and about 75% of the room simultaneously turned around with their index fingers across their lips as they made a group "Ssshhhhhh!!" It quieted everyone down, and a most refreshing performance resumed. I don't know if his performances have changed much since that time, but Iron and Wine has done pretty well for himself - which I find interesting.

The moral of this story for me is: trust your audience to find you, appreciate you and support you - even if your ways are subtle. And - don't let your own subtlety keep you from presenting yourself in the marketplace.

Very Kool!

We listen to each other, we listen in the world, but how many of us listen to ourselves? I a mean really listen? If everything is a reflection then.....

Hi Derek, Aggreed...and Barking mad is indeed an english expression...lol

It is not how loudly you speak, but often how sure you are inside...for us musicians, the music speaks when we are truly inside...the rest for me is irrelevant. some will hear, some will not but we are still congruent and sincere.

There is a new video on my music page...it just speaks and needs no comment. :) We say inside what we mean.

Much love

Annemarie

I used to live just up the road from Barking lol.

This is so true now I let the music bark for us as we focus our efforts on live performances you cant beat a PA for barking over!

Thanks for making me smile

Gerald

I am a firm believer that there is a time and place for every activity under the sun. There is a time to be loud and a time not to. A Sargeant leading his men into battle needs more than a whisper to motivate them. A coach has to let his players know that they are letting the game slip away and has to light into them on the sidelines at times.

On the other side sometimes you get the best results with less words and a calm delivery. Former Indianapolis Colts coach Tony Dungy never raised his voice at his players and won Superbowl XLI in 2007.

Cam Cameron, offensive coordinator for the Baltimore Ravens, said of Dungy's book "Quiet Strength...., "It dispelled so many myths about the coaching business -- that you had to be a yeller and a screamer to win. You can be your own person, treat people with respect, be very demanding but demanding in a way that doesn't trample on people...."

So even though at times you may get your message across by "barking", which as some have said can be very annoying, using few words in a still small voice may yield much more satisfying results.

T

This I Realtalk From Mr. Sivers & Im Going To Use It.

~Bazz~ 2.M.E

Soooooooooo very true.

Nice article. This is our new

(only a few months old) band. We have not looked at a marketing strategy just yet. We are finding playing really good music alone is gaining us popularity rather than pounding our chests and telling everyone how good we are. Every gig gets repeat bookings for us.

I very well understand the concept.

Thanks

as a performer, i'm big and loud. which is a problem. so the trick is finding ways to soften and let the audience draw me to them. they have to WANT to draw me to them.

it's a balance of self-promotion and not.

I have had my music on CD Baby for awhile now. No barking, just trying to make the best music I can. Sometimes the slow,easy approach works very well.

I recoil at the sound of "barking". The best way to promote yourself is to actively seek new outlets quietly and continuously.

My favorite artists never really had to "bark".

They were discovered and supported by the public.

Also, spend more time on polishing your craft.

Get better at what you do and you won't have to "bark" so much.

I'm soo resistant. Maybe because there's a certain appeal to barking, or saying things the worst way possible, very occasionally.Or hoping that I will! If it's about accomplishing something though, I must concede that the milder approach will generally be more effective. But we aren't talking about advertising.



Thanks for that brilliant article the other day...about ME! For the first time in 4 years this miserable creep has always affected me the same way, but yesterday, as he started talking, the article about the mirror was wafting itself in my face saying, "Sorry! No. It's about you, and there is definitely something better you could be doing than standing here listening to this." And I smiled in disbelief as something propelled me gently by the shoulders - away! I didn't think it could be done, and I don't understand how it worked, but that article was dynamite.

Still pleasantly stunned,

Gen

Well our good friend Derek,they say if you've got somthing to say "shout it out"or no one will hear you.Sometimes,a placard on a crowded street speaks volumes and people do react because,theyre not under pressure.

This is very noticeable when you're at a gig and that guy who over sells his band and abilities wont shut up. Louder talk usually means whats being said is lacking enough value. The trick is finding that correct thing for you and your audience. I'm still looking.

Great point Derick still there is no one size fits all here it depends on ya region music gear n manny other factors of cource we should adjust when n where needed one love to all

But I don't have time to find other material on thoughts that may not yet have occurred to me. It's great to read all these different viewpoints too. All of them that I have time for.

And... it doesn't matter if he reads all these posts!! It's all about ME and getting ME thinking and giving ME something worth thinking about. I love this.

Gen

You're avin a larf mate, you must be barkin' mad I tell ya.

Hi Derek,

Like most people the barking is a turn off to me personally. But sometimes you don't know what to do and you feel so strong about your vision and nobody feeling you. I know you could be in the wrong place at the wrong time, but when people hear you and like you and call you back but on a small level, you get desperate. That leads in forcing your views on others and leaving your first love, creativity. I'm a business man (www.northwesthotdogs.com) and it's taking' up all my time that I had to promote my CD. As I was first reading about the barking I was thing of hiring someone to stand on a street corner and bark out some Cd's. Just a thought, but Derek help me out if you can. I emailed you about a week back, I know your busy so get at me when you can, I need some networking guidance.

SuperNatural

www.sowbigministries.com

Partically I am not good at marketing. So, I read and apply the information from great sources. If my marketing tool is not working I would not know. I have so many hats that I wear. So, to keep up with what I am doing I read. I got an e-mail from CDBABY about the style for my music on my first cd. I am sure I've gotten the same e-mail in the past, but it did not sink. Three weeks ago though I got the point and change the genre for that cd.

So, Sivers, David, and other information sources continue to send me those e-mails.

This reply is being typed from Union Square!! How funny is that?! I can hear him yelling "Penny for the homeless" right now in fact.

I STRONGLY agree. Your product is the result of your creativity. Surely that talent can be used to market your work in a more unique fashion. ;)

While I agree whole heartedly with you...how do you explain these barking, yelling, screaming people who call themselves singers (wrongly of course) and these younger kids going for it? Something I'll never understand.

Derek,

Thanks for the info... I remember one teacher always saying talk softer or slow if someone's eyes are wandering...........

dave

Great comparison. Unfortunately though sometimes the self-aware tend to undersell themselves to avoid barking too loudly. Quality over quantity (or volume) of the bark, i guess.

Great point, Derek. I err on the side of too little communication for the reasons you mention. Finding that balance is difficult. I mean, Jesus, if I were a marketing genius, I'd be a star and I'd be the one teaching *you* (LOL).

Brilliant as usual, Derek. I found myself "barking" at our mailing list back in the winter, running a "pre-season" special and reminding people to book early for summer gigs, etc. Everyone ignored it. An uncomfortable situation for us is that we get "invited" to countless events, especially in the summer, where we are then expected to perform. Summer is incredibly busy, and is basically the income we live on for the remainder of the year. So, when the "bark" didn't work, I quietly posted a polite note on our "Calendar" page reminding people that this is our job, and while we appreciate their kind invitations, it's impossible to accept them all or we wouldn't have time to make a living. However, we would be happy to take a deposit and reserve a date if they wanted to book entertainment for their event. Then, on a link, I added a "ballpark" rate schedule. Didn't send out e-mails or make phone calls, just that one little note, and the bookings have been pouring in from all those who normally "invite" us for free!

Lol.That's true.Most people don't realize how it hurts more than it helps.You just have to be more openminded & creative.

tee/hee... I stopped barking sometime ago much to the delight of family friends and strangers alike.

It happened because i became peaceful inside. I can't say i have sold more cd's but i can say my overall day to day life is given the opportunity to unfold rather than ripping it open in a mad dash to nowhere. :)

thanks for the post

When you push, you can't pull. That's the way I've heard it said.

Either way, you have to get close to hear the cry for help. The world has become immune, which exacerbates the bark..I think. We, as musicians, have to find a way to break through the information overload that people are experiencing, in order to reach them in a place where they can hear us. Sounds like Heaven to me.

This resonates with me the same way your ... "does your music cause people to tell 10 friends? if not, go back to the drawing board" post.

That one caused me to pretty much stop doing acoustic rock altogether!

- At the Drawing Board, Not Wanting to Be a Barker in Portland (ADBNWBBP)

Thanks Derek, I guess barking does work when selling hot dogs and pop-corn, beer and soda at the baseball game.

A lot of us are also conditioned to turn off our ears when somebody barks (from childhood I think). In advertising (music or anything else) maybe you should always start with two approaches and then stop the one that is not working, one more barking approach where you are the driving force yourself and a whispering approach that just tickles the mind of the listener. The barking type approach may work in some cases but probably whipsering is what has the potential to become viral (especially in these Facbook, MySpace and e-mail times).

/F

When I like the music I make, it's much more satisfying than being liked. Promoting, etc; I need an assistant.

You really DO read all these posts, don't you, Derek?! My goodness, you ROCK! Another amazing little read... thanks!!!

And in response to Richard McGee, I would have to say that you have to be doing things that inspire other people to tell their friends about you. One person speaking as loud as 20 is nowhere near as effective as 20 people quietly sharing your CD with a friend. Keep putting yourself out there without PUTTING YOURSELF OUT THERE. Book more shows, and send one friendly e-mail to your fans a few days before each show. Get flyers up all around the neighborhood & other nearby neighborhoods whenever you have a show. Write a new song and videotape yourself singing it and post it on YouTube. DO stuff. Be a walker, not a talker. That's what will get your friends and fans, when they see your poster up for your show next week, they will say to their friends, "Hey I know that guy - you should check him out." And that's what will get other people saying, "Hey, I have heard of that guy - we should check him out."

www.myspace.com/anniebmusic

anniebmusic.blogspot.com/

(Did I just bark?!?!?)

OMG sorry, that's NOT my MySpace page!!!!!!!! It's www.myspace.com/annetmarie

(Sorry!)

Hi Derek,just a quick note,

Super awareness I call it!Will get to you on that later,but enjoy the

sharing.

Sonja v Beers

Hi Derek,just a quick note,

Super awareness I call it! Will get to you on that later,but enjoy the

sharing.

Sonja v Beers

Wow, I think that guy was really creative in what he thought would work. Although ineffective, he may not have known any other way. It's like what you say that will bring people to you; for instance, when someone is being raped, you yell "Rape! Help!" and NOBODY will come, nobody wants to get involved. But if you yell "Fire! Fire!" for the same incident, People come running to the rape scene. Perceptions are so ticky. I like this article. I'm not saying you have to be underhanded in your marketing, I was just making a point about perceptions. :)

Interesting as it almost seemed that one was going to go for the barking?

I,m going to try "affirmative rising"

It's kind of like those TV commercials where the guy is yelling something about buying a car from him... those are the commercials we quickly mute. It's the cute, non-irritating commercials that we pay attention to.

Great point, however nothing makes a looser but, a tryer!

Atleast, we know what not to do now!

Hi Derek, that was fantastic. I agree with the person that said someone may not realize they're barking and no one will get close enough for you to find out. Here's a thought, if you want to know if you are barking, try putting on a recording device and leave it all day while you go about your daily hooplah. Then play it back and see if this is a person you would listen to. It can be eye opening. Keep the great tips coming.

Everything has its place taken literally it works well at a carnival where its expected and in the French quarter of New Orleans as a draw for a strip club. In the day of completion among papers it certainly sold a copy or two, fact is people aren’t respondent to it on the street in most scenarios. That said, taken as a metaphor, ineffective campaigns can certainly be compared to this ancient mode of advertisement

Arousal is evoked by surprise and (positive) Valence is caused by asserted prediction. To properly communicate, we need both.

Derek -

Your comments have me wondering what artists like Buddy Holly, Elvis Presley would have thought of this barking idea. Granted,

these were people with amazing talent, who

went on to become icons. However, whether

they barked or purred, it was easier in their

day to be heard, due to the fewer number

of ears to reach.

Going back even further, The Carter

Family, who were dirt poor when they went

to a radio audition in 1927, went on to sell

750,000 records during the Depression.

I think with the ever-increasing mass

population on our planet, more folks are

given to barking so they won't be left laying

on the porch, as opposed to running with

the tall dogs ! But, even the loudest barker

is not guaranteed success ... ... ...

Larry Hunter

Reminds me of so much Rap "singing"

or the hystrionics of the gimmick

centered artists.

My advice is be Mellow &

just be yourself.

Loud/Soft is one dichotomy of measure.

Tonal is another...and no matter how soft or loud, if your TONE is pleasant to the ear, your message has more of a chance to be heard by those who want to know.

Rhythm also has a heart beat that rings true (or not), as well as the dynamic you create within that rhythm, tone and substance.

An inaudible hesitation of the truth will translate to the heart, if not the ear.

You've done us well over the years, Derek, to bring us to our SENSES. Thats' the key.

love you from the earliest CD BABY times to now. Thanks for all you do.

Be Your Most Authentic Self!!!!!

It`s Goes Way Beyond Logic!

Every Story Is So Unique And Beautiful!

Love To Everyone !!!

Sara Carlson....

Thanks Derek,

For Being A Warrior Of The Heart !!!

Very true... it's like "barking up the wrong tree" --- people will leave. (is that using too many metaphors?) :D

I refer to comment #62 by Dinnah.

As both a singer and singing teacher I found most of the singing in the movie "Dreamgirls" was just like that. All shouting. I think we confuse emotion with volume.

thanks for the article Derek. Good point. Worth thinking about.

You are too right about that. I am encountering this problem more the most because of my genre of music. An uphill battle and unfortunately a losing one because of the state of the music industry.

Years ago, I was taught that the definition of "critique" was "to describe and to prescribe". To this end:

It seems that the "barker" presumes that his audience is not deaf and, therefore, is moved to relay his message at a level that cannot be ignored, all the while unaware of the potential assault on senses and sensibility.

A different sensory approach might be in order, more akin to the whispering analogy. Presume that your audience is not blind, define the intent of your message, and determine the visuals that will support. In the case of homelessness and hunger, a caption, simply reading "Silent Support for the Homeless and Hungry. Please Help. Inquiries Welcome." It identifies the cause, solicits contribution, and invites dialog. You are not looking for a one-time solution, but a long-term, engaged relationship.

Thanks Derek.

I find that going the opposite direction than barking is best.

I remember seeing the famous Mime , Robert Shields { shields and yarnell} creating total havoc in Union Square and getting big RESULTS without ever uttering a single word. Duh - he was a MIME!

a lot of people tried to avoid HIM too because they thought his antics , while entertaining were also personally threatening{ he would really get in your face, sit on your lap, jump into the arms of the local traffic cop and literally get arrested... and subsequently get on TV news... and subsequently get DISCOVERED by a big time producer who subsequently gave him his own TV show that ended up hosting CHER, BOB HOPE, Frank Sinatra, and Jack BENNY!

He also opened for the Rolling Stones in the 70's.

The point? Sometimes crazy is better than louder, but he was neither.He was simply the BEST at his craft and reflected back to people what he saw in life... much like a good songwriter, but he knew how to get PUBLICITY by being incredibly AUDACIOUS. not many of us have that over the top quality, but he made it in spite of people running across the street to AVOID him.

A few years back I enjoyed having a Karate instructor who would always talk only loud enough for the group to hear what he was saying,but only if you were listening. Everyone in class made sure to listen closely or the lesson would be lost. We heard the powerful voice also, during drills.

Good point!

If the music's good, you don't need to yell to sell it. It sells itself.

The moral of 'Barking' is...Don't go yelling at the top of your voice to every Tom, Dick and Harry. Know yourself as an artist, find your audience, be yourself, and miracles will happen :-)

Tip: I made a three-song sample cd which I give away to people I think may like my music. Don't forget, in the digital world you get paid for listens as well as purchases!!

and i thought i wasn't barking loud enough

Hi Derek,

Your point is well taken, thanks.

I have known you as a business associate (CdBaby) since 2002 and met your once in Chicago during a gethering here; I, therefore, consider a friend as well.

A request and a bit of advice, Derek, if you will as I respect your expertise and what you have to say.

Please take a look at my Website, blog, etc. www.colorfulmusicbabyblue.com and tell me what I'm not doing, or what I need to do to generate the kind of personal response and dialog you seem to always get so as to "buff-up" my bottomline.

Thanks for really caring about your musician/vocalist freinds,

Ernie Hines

I do find this extremely interesting. A modern day paraphrase, when people know that you genuinely care about others, that passion will be evident. To passionately pursue helping others, doesn't take disruption, it takes great patience, diligence, and gentleness along with positive enforcement. Show, then go, then others will know. Yelling rarely captures the spirit of what is trying to be accomplished. A generous heart however, now there is something to behold.

Hello Derek,

I always enjoy your writing and would like you to keep sending.

My next project is a sacred album for a church fundraiser. It involves the chorus, soloists and organist that provide the music there every week.

Your messages are always welcome.

Jon Naples

The dog barks because he is alerting us to possible danger or he is annoucing to anyone who will listen that he is lonely and bored. The angry,frustrated artist does the same thing. A normal release and yet a dangerous paradox as you have pointed out Derek. Good one.

Hey Derek,

Coming back again to my little comment.He was barking up the wrong tree that is.Less is much better and more effective,and there are many ways of saying things,and leave that impression.

There is nothing worse than screaming on top of your longs to be heard,repetitively.Strangely enough it does leave the impression

in your mind if you let it.Words are powerful,and the brain even more.Be certain what you are barking for,and

hopefully it will be the Right Tree

Look around first what is needed in

the surroundings you find yourself

in at that moment,and say what you mean,and leave that Impression!

Most of all,do it with Taste.I would take that as a blessing to learn from.

SvB

How about having each other checking our advertising material (myspace, cdbaby, website). For instance, there is a short movie website called www.triggerstreet.com where one can submit a movie to be reviewed only after he has himself review a few other movies. On the same principle, we could receive on assignment some web page to check and get ours to be checked in return.

I LOVE that idea. I've always wanted to do something like that. — Derek

You probably can't convince someone to dig your music. Present it the best you can and keep trying it on new audiences. What did you write it for except to share it?

Vocalist in a thrash band.

Barking=Bad

PISA=Good

Even when we've done our research and know our market inside & out and have a great product to deliver, the struggle will always be there to be heard. We definitely have to make some noise because there are simply too many people/artists just like us. However, if we Politely Interrupt Someone's Attention, we might have a better chance of ...

Then there's the story of the novice tuba player, shunned by the village he was exiled to the seashore where he continued to practice until the fog rolled in, where upon his playing became heroic, saving the day for boats.

I've been thinking about the effectiveness of the barkers' ad campaign. I think about it in the tub and while driving.....338 people have thought about his pitch to the point of writing about it. Dereck even knows what key he's in. Think of all the people's ears and hearts he has reached. I heard about Him way down here in Texas. Every time I pass a homeless guy on the corner I can hear the barkers' plea. Wish my ad campaign worked that well for so little investment. www.daleleroyperry.com

Most often someone can attract more attention with a whisper.

There is something slightly naughty about whispering that seduces the listener into listening very intently.

Janet Hansen

Scout66.com

Words of wisdom to Duane Eby about his comments of 12th July 2009.

I personally have had for many years access to a barrage of information on Songwriting, Music Business Promotion etc. from the International Songwriters Association and this is where I heard of CDBaby. Until recently I had no idea that Derek Sivers was and is so high profile as you put it. Well thank God he kept in touch with us after he sold CDBaby as due to Thyroid problems I had either forgotten or lost some of the advice given over these years from your other sources as you put it. The reason most people key into him is because of Derek's genuine interest in others feels like you are sitting right next to him, so just as well he is thick-skinned and has a great heart. I see he has replied to you which I hope would make you think next time you assume why people key into certain people. Maybe you had a bad hair day. Glad Derek is strong enough to rise above it as I couldn't being an old biker. You can guess the rest. I hope you live to experience appreciating what DS has been doing for us all and I wish you a happy long life here and forever more. Amen

Bark all ye want, but all ye will be is horse by the end of the day... thanks Derek. You Rock.

I have a "Facebook" friend I don't know that well. The reason I don't know him that well is because I don't want to, because he is a barker, posting 6-8-12 times a day about his CD and his band. ("We are rehearsing a new song tonight!" An hour later: "We rehearsed a new song tonight! Buy my CD!" etc.)

I am going to send him this article, and let him know I was there once myself, and he should take it in the spirit given. I will let you know what happens.

Also...this reminds me of a teacher I had in high school...when the students got rowdy and stopped listening, she would talk quiter and quieter until she was whispering. The entire room would get quiet as one by one, every student stopped talking to hear what she was saying. I have adapted this to promotion, and it works very well.

That's never my problem, meow.

There is a fine line between the virtues of "barking" and silence. If I just sit and do nothing, people are not going to come looking for me. They won't know I exist. I am, in essense, invisible to others. So what can you do?

hahahahahah I love the dog picture. I love that there is so much to learn and think about here, not only from you Derek, but from all posters when I have the time to digest the posts! There was a fellow in my last neighborhood here, who was actually barking on the sidewalk. Loudly. It was pretty sick. I was walking by and some kids were starting to also pass him and make fun of him. I gave them a look and they realized maybe this wasn't something funny after all.

If you're only barking, you've lost something too.

@ allan & derek,

improved consciousness?

If your music isnt that good, it doesnt matter if we bark all day about it !

concentrate on the music, rather than sending millions of emails, ads, etc.

I encourage everyone to watch the Factory Records story on Youtube. Tony Wilson was very smart, he didn't promote the records he let others do that. Watch it.

Precisely the same reason why car alarms are ineffective.

How about yawning?

I am attracted to the picture of the yawning dog.

This is the first time I've come across this site and I must say it's great!

(ref to post 4)
Allan : Of course you can always tell if you're doing the "barking" or "promoting".
If your way of promoting follows others "tried and tested routes", then you are most certainly doing the barking!

As regards #193, noting that F to D is a lament, that is why I no longer say, "Thank God" but instead say, "praise the Lord."

As regards #85, I do have an alternative. The old lady who wanted to feed the homeless birds in London sang sweetly, "Feed the birds, tuppence a bag, tuppence, tuppence..." on Mary Poppins.

By the way, when I went to Britain's London Zoo the first thing I did was go to information and ask, "Where would Mary Poppins take the children?" (No answer, perhaps because the zoo has changed. The old penguin slide is now an unused heritage artifact)

Some of the comments have to do with band volume.

The cold fact is that barking sells beer. On an abnormal night when the staff had to wear earplugs... they sold the most beer. If people are feeling communal and less lonely then they will tend to sip instead of gulping.

I have long been able to tell when a house band was going into break because they would up their volume for the last song.

Come to think of it, my buddy Derek would have tried doing the opposite. Lowering the volume for the end of the set, and being at their most communal get-people-bonding for the last song. Just to see what would happen.

You asked about suggestions for #4:

If I go up to the person barking and ask them a thoughtful question. And then I listen. Once they spill it out and start to slow down, then they may eventually realise themselves that barking doesn't work. They just never had a chance to hear themselves. I give them that space. And if they don't figure it out themselves, at least they are more open to listen to the feedback because they know I care. It may take more time in that moment...but saves loads of time later.

Its uncomfortable but works amazingly well...(I'm also thinking in organizations...)