The day Steve Jobs dissed me in a keynote

i just wanted to be the first respondant for once!!!!!!!

sorry

Wow... what a story Derek. It's amazing the things you and other companies such as CD Baby go through behind the scenes that we never hear about till later. That's why when something goes 'wrong', I try not to jump the gun (I try!) and make accusations. You just never know what is brewing on the other side of the door. Glad it all worked out in the end, but shitty of Apple to put you through that.

Great story! Felt like I was reading a folklore.org story for a minute. :)

The might Jobs speaks. Amazing story. Amazing power, amazing ego. Thanks for the story, very insightful.

Well done Derek. I always knew your heart was in the right place. Thanks for everything you have done for all the independent artists out there.
Cheers from Australia
Don

Pretty interesting to consider how online sales really revolutionized the music industry. Seems like more and more people are finding their own love for music in independent artists, as opposed to what's playing on the radio. For that, I couldn't be more grateful. So good on Apple for getting that ball rolling... even if they are kinda dicks.

Thanks for sharing this story, man! Interesting read as always.

Promising things you can't control is part of business. The universe shifts many variables..

Apple = Love. Hate.

WOW! Makes you think. Why do we even service these companies. They really don't get it do they!!?

So essentially they are saying they wouldn't sell Bob Dylan's records until he was 'signed'.

I may have understood it back then, but today in this DIY age it shows some true colours & how little the companies know about today's independent music scene!!!

i wonder how all of that figures into the fact that all my songs on iTunes show up as being by Rihanna or Beck on people's iPods....

I love the few apple products I own, but for acting like this (in this instance and plenty others), I'll always consider their business sense incredibly inferior to that of people like you, Derek. Thanks for another great read!

Have you spoken to him since?
No. Didn't speak with him then, either. — Derek

Being ethical isn't always profitable. But it helps you sleep at night.
Agreed! No regrets. — Derek

Sorry,that sucks....You are still a rockstar w the cool ideas.
Dave

I kinda get it. They wanted to provide things and take the credit not have someone else "make" $200K to get songs into ITunes even if you lost money doing it.

Whatever.

Most CEOs are assholes.

Well, he had to put the spin on it somehow. That was pretty lame but I bet there was more to the story and he had to come up with an excuse. Seeing as you got the contract shortly after seems like a possible indication that was the case.

You got Jobbed.

Wow. Talk about timing being everything...

Huh. Maybe a bunch of people complained that they couldn't get the good underground stuff?

No idea.

I own a MacBook Pro and an iPod, and they're nice and all, but I've never understood the Cult of Apple. This demonstrates that they can be as boneheadedly corporate as any of the others.

Steve was just testing your commitment level.

Although I have a G5 in the studio, I've never bought into their exclusive nature of software ect. which extends through the sales team and all corporate members.

Wow, what a story! It's amazing what goes on behind the scenes. Thanks for helping we musicians get our work out to the world!

I think the moral of that story is very valuable, don't promise what is out of your control.
Thanks D for the insight

Komodo Jones

This is a hard lesson to learn and it served you well. As a musician I have learned other business lessons from other lines of work not limited to the music business, too. But they all boiled down to a saying that I will never forget: "under promise, over perform". Many people get that backwards as I have done, but the lesson is so valuable that you never forget.

Great story (and great use of a Louis C.K. clip)
glad you caught that — Derek

Understood....

Herr Jobs has profited mightily from his Sheeple. However the demise of the crApple machine is written, so shall it be at the hands of the proletariat ;-)

Commented from a vastly superior to the iphoney android device.

iM iReally iSorry iDerek

Wow what a story Derek...thanks 4 sharing and thanks for the great work you have done 2 help people like me share my music with the world without my soul being controlled by corporations.....Power 2 the people.....Keep Rockin...Zahlu

I feel your hurt, I went to a hiring seminar at apple in September, I drove 60 miles to be interviewed, the young woman was a moron, WAY below the level I thought apple was at,
and I LOVE apple, been a user since 1986,
the products are awesome but the people are really insular and odd, Jobs is a genius with marketing and bringing product but he keeps himself separate from reality when it comes to the public, paranoid and purile

From the outside, everything can seem like smooth sailing. It's only when you're on the inside (or read about it!) that you realise how bumpy the ride can be. While there's no reason to think life should be fair, there is reason to think that, eventually, good things happen to good people ...

Steve Jobs is a real "Richard Edward"

That's what happens when you deal with a religious cult disguised as a computer company! ;-)

Glad you told this story. It needed airing.

"Trust but verify."

To any reader who doesn't know Apple's operating and marketing practices, this blog post would come off as cynical.

That Steve Jobs basically bullied you into performing a service to your customers for no charge (incurring a massive cost yourself) so that you could willingly help Apple increase its own revenue is deplorable but believable.

I can only hope the dividend from having 5000 of CD Baby's artists in the iTunes library was worth being trampled on in that way. Was it?
Yes, but that's a separate story. Why it was worth it for me to make it a free service. No regrets. (Also, I don't think Apple cared whether our service was free or not. That they returned the contract the day after I made our service free was probably circumstance. Many other paid services distribute to iTunes now.) — Derek

Good lesson
Thanks for sharing it !

I was one of the 5000 who signed up and prepaid because I had been with cdbaby for years before that and trusted Derek when he said it would happen. I was thrilled for the opportunity and realized at the time that Derek was right-this was a game changing opportunity for independent music. Itunes is still where we sell the most downloads, so I am glad he stuck it out. Very interesting to learn the back story on this huge breakthrough. Many thanks for what you did for us

One day Steve will ask you to run iTunes or maybe even all of Apple.

That would be a good day for the music business.

ps: I love my Apple products but I am not thrilled with the Apple culture becoming pro-cor vs pro-artist.

Thanks for mailing me about this story...
That makes me think, and think... And think.

Wow. Derek, you're one of a kind.

Derek,
You are my Musical God ! I knew in the early days you were working your butt off to take care of us, the indie musician. I am so thankful that you were put on this Earth as our saviour ! I remember getting an e-mail from your staff thanking me for the chocolate cover coffee beans that I always included in my CDs but I never heard any complaint of the hard work that they were doing.You always had our best interest at heart and I will always keep that in my heart!
Thanks Derek !

I use Apple exclusively and would never by a "PC" product, but I still find myself saying "F-ing Apple"sometimes...f-ing Apple...

What a crazy story! I find it fascinating to get a glimpse into the inner workings.

In my own small way (much smaller than yours) I have dealt with a very large corporation - providing video game soundtracks to MTV-Viacom. And what an amazing hassle, just trying to hold on to my rights and submit an invoice!

But at least I wasn't responsible for all those customers on my end, like you.

I think you did the right thing, refunding the money, explaining the situation, and thereby maintaining credibility. Which is worth more than money, in the long run.

Thanks for sharing!

He dissed all of us on CDBABY at that time.

You handled it well.

Derek,
Wow... I would have never guessed Jobs would do you like that.. but in the end you prevailed and a valuable lesson was learned and now shared. Thanks

is it true the original start up sound for the macs came from the end chord of "a day in the life" and because they knew that the Beatles weren't happy with the business name fiasco, they named it "sosumi" ie "so,... sue me!"????

Because of you Derek, my songs are now being heard all over the world and for that I say THANK YOU!

Hey Derek,

Hope you're doing well man! Wow, that is so petty for the big A to do something like that...sheesh. What you have done for us indie musicians is of course legendary man and I just wanna say a big thank you to you for all you've done through the years man.

When I was first trying to figure this whole online distribution and marketing thing, it was you who was there to provide tips and outlets to look into. You're a truly good human being with a strong heart and conscience.

Look forward to the next time we get to meet up man. If you see Ariel before I do, tell her hi for me.

Sending you the best,

Andrew

What a spiteful thing for Apple to do. It is just another example of their controlling proprietary behavior. Many people love their Apple products, and pay a premium for them. Apple does it because they can get away with it. Too bad.

The always slow as molasses response of Apple, the same pain is being felt with the App store development community. You have to have your app to them by a certain time but then who knows how long it'll take to get approved sometimes.

Well, I remember that day you happened to get on Campus. I remember where I was, in a car, on my way to NAMM when it was divulged.

I also remember another day when that system was put in place for the digital distribution.

Then I remember the decision that didn't come lightly to stick with it all.

Thanks for trusting in me to help you with all that stuff Derek.

Derek, I just had to read this whole article right now, Thanks again for being the pioneer we needed to get our music out there and get paid. You are a godsend God Bless you and all you do

What a great story, Derek. And what a tough and expensive way to learn that lesson. And very cool of you to eat the time and cost that it took work into Apple's system.

While it must've been a pretty big sting at the time, it must've also been gratifying, as you pointed out, to see that huge door open up for indie musicians. After all your (and the countless number of musicians') years of hard work and dedication, struggling to get an indie CD into a music store, there was not one, but several legitimate vehicles for the indies to sell their music. While it remains a constant challenge to promote independent music, your efforts resulted in a giant leap forward for the independent music community.

THANK YOU Derek for your hard work and honesty....even with UNCLEAR communication...or info. left out...you treat others like you would want to be treated...and keep PROMOTING MUSIC! Best Regards, Leah

I have hated iTunes from the beginning and the whole Apple mindset and for that reason have never bought a single song off iTunes. Your story gives me another reason why. Thanks for sharing it, Derek.

Steve Jobs's integrity level is very low...

I distinctly remember him saying all that in the keynote that day. When just months earlier at a keynote saying they wanted everyone. "editing"? What the crap is this Steve?, I thought. I was shocked at getting my money back from you cause I knew it was just a matter of time before it all took off, ------& I'm so glad it did. ;@)

Thanks for batting for us and hitting the long ball!!!

I love the transparency of you -- so you ;-)

If I had a choice to hang out over beers with Jobs or Derek, I'd choose Derek.

You have integrity AND know how to run a business. They aren't mutually exclusive traits and you showed people that with your success.

I remember the whole sorry tale!

What a nightmare of a time that was for you. But you hung in there, and when my money was returned I remember thinking there weren't many like you around.

And then we were up at iTunes. :D

What a tale. I miss you online!

You rock, Derek.

Shux, Derek.... How rude and arrogant! You're a good man and you are honest and THAT is priceless. Thanks for sharing this with us.
All the best,
Jeannie

Thanks for your patience and endurance, Derek. This service is part of what makes CDBaby such an awesome outlet for indie musicians. Your vision obviously goes beyond that of the wonks who are always staring at the bottom line before everything else.

Hi Derek,
Thank you for the story. Hopefully you are doing well. I will learn from the bottom line of your experience. "But I never again promised a customer that I could do something beyond my full control."

Looking forward to muckworks. I will likely be a customer because I know you do the correct thing in treating people well. Derek, by the way I wish you were still in charge of cdbaby. Their new website has some issues. Hopefully, they will get it right like you did. Thank you again for what you have done for us musicians!
Steve Bruce

Very nice article sir.....I was wondering that will itunes have a future with audio streaming catching up?

Another story of David and Goliath!

I remember your e-mail about the sign up; I remember reading your notes; and I remember your refund e-mail.

Fun times in the music business. Thanks for "more" to the story.

i respect your commitment to the persons who gave you the 40 bucks, it takes character to be a person, like it takes a policy to be a company

Thank you!

I think there might be another level to the issue you've identified here, deeper than promising your customers something you aren't in control of.

When you wrote:

"Ugh. That means we have to pull each one of those CDs off of the shelf again, stick it in a Mac, then cut-and-paste every song title into that Mac software. But so be it. If that's what Apple needs, OK."

I think this is where the mistake was really made. The subtext here could be something like: "Apple is God and I will abide by them even when it feels wrong and makes no logical sense whatsoever."

Or:

"This is such a fantastic opportunity for our customers, I will do anything... *anything*, including ignoring all common sense, to achieve it."

The point being - you had something inside of you that was speaking wisdom, of the fact you already had everything Apple needed, in the form of your existing database, and Apple just needed to be convinced to accept it. But instead of following that wisdom, you caved and agreed to something you knew was inferior and pointless - and passed the cost of this wasteful choice onto your customer.

Perhaps an alternative way this could have played out, would be something like: after the meeting is over and everyones gone home, you discuss with Apple again the possibility of submitting your existing data.

Maybe in the publically-accountable setting of the meeting with 100's of companies Apple are trying to wrangle into something they can manage, they *had* to give you an emphatic "no" to your questions. But perhaps when in private dialogue there was a reasonable chance they'd make an exception in your special case, especially considering the amount of material it represented (doubling their catalogue, going by the numbers from Steve Jobs presentation). In this sense, your control of those 100,000 albums was a bargaining chip, but in the moment identified above, you gave all that power away...

PS - Disclaimer: I use and (mostly) love Apple products, if not always the company itself. ;)

PPS - Come to think of it, as a last resort, you could have analysed the output from Apples software, and likely simply had to write a script to parse your data into XML format or something, perhaps with a spoofed header - to fool Apple into thinking you *did* use their software... but anyway… :)

Integrity through and through Derek.

Ever wonder why Mr. Jobs hasn't yet learned that people create best in environments not driven by fear fueled by paranoia? Personally I wonder who is profiting from his persona extremis since it must be exhausting to keep in place. He could use some of your music--absolutely!

If this story is accurate, and I see no reason to think it's not, Apple fucked up several times in typical corporate arrogance. First and worst is they didn't inform anyone that it was a confidential meeting. If that is not made clear up front (maybe sign a piece of paer to the effect) then they have nothing to cry about when you posted the news. Fuck 'em. That started the bad blood. Second, not keeping you informed throughout the process was dumb. And not returning the contract was juvenille and unprofessional. Their products are good but their big wigs are a bunch of petty assholes.

Editing? Valuable service? That must be why the record companies have been so successful lately - what a joke.

Thanks for trying to exclude me Steve. I'll think about that as I'm writing my next song using apple logic - or maybe I'll switch to ProTools. Way to delight your customers.

All sarcasm aside, Thank you Derek, for helping the independent musician.

Dear Derek,
I totally agree that 2003 was such a significant turning point for independent artists. It was like the playing field was all of sudden leveled.
You handled a complex and difficult situation with great grace and integrity.
If it hadn't been for that first email you sent inviting us to distribute to iTunes and other services, I may have not been able to feed my family for all of these years, - literally. Having my music available on iTunes (and the other services) has had a huge impact on my music career too.
Thanks for posting this.
Steven

You're just a decent human being, plain and simple.You should consider it an honor being dissed for doing the right thing.

Great story Derek, and conflict comes from every area of life, especially conflicts of Jealousy, control, anger, AND yes we should never promise what we can and cannot do for our clients without full control, because when other's have the control button they may say yes one day and the next day change the rules that do not suit everyone, then the Conflict arises again :) But Hey we learn something new each day and every step of the way in our journeys.

Thanks for sharing that with us:)

Hiya Derek, it sounds like a frustrating business deal from the beginning. A room full of music guys and not being able to negotiate directly.

You should have been able to talk to someone throughout the process. But they were in control and could do things the way they wanted.

It's often strange how extreme people go to balance themselves. Like that Steve guy...really creative but cutthroat.

It's kind of like the people with the biggest egos have the most fear.

Is this the first time you're airing your frustration from this? I hope you haven't been carrying it for all this time...Cheers bro, and Thank YOU for everything!!

Typical corporate bullshit. I hate hearing about this crap.

but if you took 200K and put in Apple stock that day/.........

First... I love Apple Computers... I still have my Apple IIGS and think it is more of a computer than anything DELL ever made.
Second... You Rock!
Third... Take solace in the fact that Steve Jobs got screwed by his own company once, too... When John Sculley made the Macintosh the main (and worse) Apples in the line... and took over Apple... Jobs was outed from 1985 until 1997... How rude, but he did not learn humility... Sad really. All the old Apple Fans (Pre 1983) Hated Sculley... And STILL hate Macs, but... Jobs hasn't done anything to help our outlook except for the iPads and iPhones.
I still think ipods and iPads are reverse engineered from alien tech.

I love how honest you are about what it takes to realize success in business. Even when you are working with a pure heart and intentions...sometimes you get smacked down. I applaud your grace ...continuing always to work in the best interest of your customers rather than indulging understandable anger or resentment. Ultimately, integrity will always win. Thank you for the story Derek. I continue to be inspired by you and remain a huge fan!

Business is very complicated. You just never know how or why people and companies make the decisions that they do. But people like Derek Sivers make a difference and all of us in the independent music racket appreciate it!

Crazy, and inspiring.

Apparently, things aren't running too smoothly anymore...I have recently heard of some very frustrating issues w/ music at cdbaby getting to itunes....album was up on itunes, then it was down...then it was promised to be back up...then it was sort of up, etc.....

I remember that! It's the best thing you ever did for us. It's good that you have no regrets. Sorry you had to eat all that money. In general If you ever have any regrets about anything you can't take back, please realize just how much you helped all those small guys that got bullied by all those gigantic record companies. You fought city hall and one. That's a lifetime achievement that a person can be proud of.

Hey, you said "fucking". That's awesome!!!

Another lesson learned. Yay.

Yeah, he said 'fucking'. I liked that too. It's what I was thinking while reading the piece. That, and 'User'.

Take solace in knowing that Steve jobs has been similarly screwed without resulting in orgasm several times himself, and it couldn't have happened to a more deserving person. It is no accident that I do not own a Mac, ipod, ipad, iphone, etc. I have no intention of rewarding that kind of behavior ...

In the age of legal Mac clones, I was the Support Manager for all Apple Products for a major University. We set out to purchase 50+ macs, and Apple refused to come close (let alone match) the prices their competitors offered, but informed us there were no plans to rescind Mac OS licensing for at least 24 months.

A few months after we bought a batch of clones from Power Computing (to the tune of several hundred thousand dollars), Apple bought them out, shut them down, and informed us that warranties and service contracts would be terminated at the end of the year.

Apple fanatics are KNOWN for their loyalty and branded as "independent" and "free thinkers." I learned a hard lesson that we macaddicts were revolutionary only in that we supported a regime that felt no reciprocal loyalty.

Apple (at least since the second coming of Steve Jobs) is absolutely everything we accuse Microsoft of being - money-grubbing, price-gouging, heavy-handed, monopolistic and certain in its own superiority.

It's always a sad day when you learn the great Oz is just a man behind a curtain.

it is egoist monopoly by Apple...they still do these kind of things

Hi Derek,

Sound business sense doesn't just mean knowing how to make profit, it's how to deal with customers problems when things go wrong, which you obviously know all about.

I have to admit, that whilst I love Apple computers, as they provide tools for my work (music production) I can't stand itunes. I think it's an awful music service.

Maybe you can educate me here, but the way it seems to me is that people are only blikely to find my music on itunes if they already know it exists, which means they most likely know my website. So why not just sell it myself?

Anyway thanks for this article.
Because some people only want to buy music on iTunes. You have to be where things are sold. Like your book should be for sale on Amazon because that's where people look for books. — Derek

Derek,
At the risk of sounding like a broken record, you are my hero (still). Thank you for all you do for indie music.
Ed

Lesson learned. You do realize that you will go down in history as one of the pioneers of music uploading. Many years from now people will know of you. Remember that the next time someone trys to diss you.

Ranj.

When I first met you in 2000 or 2001 at CMJ you offered to send one copy of every CD in your catalog to add to the Muze database. Score! When I went back and told my boss, I was told that we couldn't do it because it was too much work. Why does it seem that those of us who just want to help always seem to get in trouble...

Man, I remember that nightmare. Back when the word "Indie" still erroneously meant "crap" to some of those in the biz, out of fear mostly. I was around in IT at the beginning of IT in the 80's and though SJ was thought to be the "hero" and BG the antichrist, they were both about MONEY (SW was an exception). There is still a lot of independent stuff out there that, as a label owner and producer, I think shouldn't have been released, let alone even played. But I'd rather have the opportunity and CHOICE to find what I like as opposed to some greedy corporate moron shoving it down my throat. After all, isn't music about freedom and choice at it's core?
Thanks for all you've done Derek. I hope you know how much it means to us all, especially those of us who've know you over the decade+.
JP

Nice to read the story. It's encouraging that things ended up as desired.

And a great conclusion!

Thanks for the nice post.

Wow thanks for the learning curve on the bastards at the top. So nice you returned the 200 grand I wonder how many artists really realized what you had done for them by doing that. Great to get your posts back have a great day people in the real world.....

Enjoyed the post and insight Derek. Thanks for sharing!

It's nice to see that some folks keep integrity -- congrats on how you do business. As for Stevie, he's surprised me a few times.

It is so so so unusual for any to look out for the little guys. Again thanks for how you do business. Apple could learn a thing or two.

Wow, Derek, man. That takes a lot to admit when you did the right thing to correct that situation. i applaud you for your patience and perseverance.Now artists like myself stand a chance because of deals like this. I'm on itunes because of cdbaby. Thanks Derek. It doesn't go unnoticed.

peace@U Dude
Sean McCready

D,
your Mama has got to be proud of you!

you helped so many people, me too! :)
I thank ya! Namaste' T

ps...the music business sure needs a few more people like you, people with some heart!

Wow Derek, the timing on this is incredible. I'm about to enter a project in which it is vitally important that I can follow through on contracted agreements. Its great to have the reminder to refrain from over-promising.

Excellent decisive action to salvage your reputation.

In hind-site would you have published the notes to the meeting and hitting the send button before sleeping on it?

Much gratitude for the share.

-Ren

That is one HELL of a story, Derek.
I think you are awesome and I wish you every blessing. And I thank you
for getting our music out there.

Very interesting read! Unbelievable that you had to go through that! Thanks for sharing!

My first time responding to your emails - though I read them all. Life, as it turns out, is often about politics and toddler warfare. Glad you did what you could - sad you had to go through what you did. Thanks for thinking about someone or something other than yourself!

lol! f@#$%^ Apple! They are a big company (now, and even then a force to be reckoned with)...it was a gamble to make it free, but in the end, you did the right thing, and came out on top...cdbaby.com won, along with Apple!

Yes, call it coincidence or whatever you want about them sending you the contract the next day.

Practically every musician I ever know signed up with CD baby for the fact that your tunes would be listed on iTunes (myself included) so yes, of course it was a great decision. This is (in my opinion) what made CDbaby better than anyone else - took care of the administrative garbage of getting all the tunes to the major digital distributors.

But like others had mentioned, it's always curiously encouraging to hear about other peoples' failures.
Thx Derek - nice touch.
Nico

Thank you so much for this incredible story. I remember when all this was going on and was very excited, and now to have the full story is actually, again, inspiring. Perserverence, strength in character, patience, and a little give to get. I still everybody, I'm on Itunes and it's all because of CD Baby! They raise their eyebrows, like, wow, you are! Again, thank you!

Derek, sorry I missed you in Austin last year.

As for Apple, and the whole experience of dealing with them on just about any level whether it be in the show room, the store, the telephone, etc. the people I've talked to have an unusual air about them, almost as if they've just smoked angeldust or have been drugged; kind of like I felt when I was a child watching children of the damned if anybody remembers that (showing my age). In fact I consider the Apple subset of users and aficionados akin to a cult or even a religion kind of like Scientology.

Derek, you're the bomb man.

Wow. Great to have a one-way conversation, eh? You're a good man, Derek Sivers. Easy for me to say-I've known you a looooooong time! Much love

This seems to be pretty good from Apple. They didn't like the idea of you charging the artists to appear on iTunes. Apple is a great company because they are very strong on their principles.

As they say, "No good deed goes unpunished". Thanks for being a stand up guy.

I was working with Apple on an iPod product at the same time and my experiences were very similar to yours, lack of communication, no explanations, then one day, all was well.

It was actually that experience that made me get back into making music.

And it was your writings that made me take my music seriously. If I haven't said it before. Thank You!

This is why I trust cd baby...never ever had a problem with the services and I trust them....

Hello Derek:

My personhjal control is much better these days. You;re right about promising something. You have to be able to deliver fast and accurate.

I finally took tohe big leap and moved away from my wife and her children and got my own studio workshop recording studio and things are looking up.My family and wife was blocking me from maing my music and Art and wanted to quit and get a job at the local donut shop and be no one. I can be humble and even correct all of my character defects but I cannot stop making music and Art.
I'll be in New York next week. If you're around we can go for a coffee. I know you Derek you'd fly home from China where you probably are now just to follow a dream. I love that. I think that's living and keep your own promise and following your own heart. Perhaps that's why someone making a false promise would bug you so much. It's like lying to someone;s face and thinking you are telling the truth. That blows me away too. I just love your perspective on life Derek.

I suspect Apple is trying to reinstate the exclusivity with "Ping".

Unless they have changed this, it is not possible to have fans follow you unless you are signed up with major label.

Whoa, Derek, thank you for dealing with all that for us.

You wanna hear an apple nightmare?
Due to my Mac crashing one week before I was set to release my first record,
''Beware the Weapon!'',
when my Mac crashed AGAIN right before releasing ''Face the Truth'',
I spent like 18 hours on the phone with apple trying to get my songs back!
I never recovered my songs, and although it was an (800) number, I forgot about over charges on my cell phone, and my cell bill was 850 dollars that month!

Derek, if anything, you really really changed the game with CDBaby :) maybe, just maybe, in the near future, you'll have something up your sleeve that will change the music industry ... again! :)

Their arrogance has only gotten worse since then. I simply can't stand that company. They loved slamming MS with Hodgman just a few years ago and now they are Hodgman.

Derek, I bought from you precisely because you weren't them. It was apparent the first time I visited your site that your business was genuine and your motivation more than about money. You advocated for the little guy in a way the big guy would never know how to do.

Thanks for the link. I'll pass it along.

Thanks for sharing this insightful story, Derek. You are honest and a man of integrity. I applaud you.

I've been missing your presence, and I'm stoked to read this story.

Sounds like Walmart squeezing the little guy for the lowest possible price... It would be interesting to know why Jobs made that $40 point in the keynote. Was it actually directed at CDbaby in grudge like fashion, or posturing to make Apple appear to be the people's champion? I wonder if he even knew how much respect you'd already accumulated, or if he had no clue.

But the interesting question to me is... knowing what I know about you, your story doesn't read like sour grapes.

So why tell this story now?

Excellent lesson. I have learnt from you more than what you could expect Derek. I use as much as I can from you running my www.cmmas.org project in Mexico. Thanks a lot!

Holy crap. iTunes can suck my dick!

I dig it. The story waxes of corporate control. iTunes is a necessary evil for keeping the old school record companies on their toes, although the latter haven't quite full adopted the 21st century yet. Downloads are where it is at. GUPPY EFFECT doesn't even release CDs anymore, just mp3 singles. It works great.

Interesting story, I don't think you are complaining about Steve or iTunes both are brilliant, and business is tough to navigate perfectly. You are a fine example of a brilliant business person who also knows how to do the right thing. Arent you glad you didnt boycott iTunes for being difficult to work with? :)

Great story....One never knows what is going on in the board room! A lot of life lessons to take from this story. Great one indeed!

Oh if only the majority of business owners were like Derek. Hard to find a lot of examples, isn't it?
By biggest bone of contention with them is they make everything difficult for indie artists - getting on iTunes, affording their highly overpriced machines and software that obsolete faster than you can blink, and the lack of sponsorship and support of music - bleh. For a supposedly atypical company, they are very typical of today's corporate breed.

Thanks Dereck for your toughness. You've got all our backs man!

Great story D!

I respect your approach to business.

And if the contract left the Apple office after your announcement...
u got ur answer. iTunes is the digital SALES leader! I remember when I selected the digital option and was warned that it may take a while and it did.

One of the best pieces of advice I got when I started my business was the very message here: don't promise what you aren't 100% sure you can deliver. I chafed at having to pull the reins way in but boy, when things went wrong (and my advisor promised they would), was I glad I did. On the other hand a friend in a similar business did take money from customers who ended up waiting months for product and it has nearly destroyed him. Oh, and is it me or does Jobs seem like a douche?

I love hearing the back story of how iTunes and CD Baby came together. And I deeply appreciate your commitment to integrity over profits (and your life's embodiment of doing the right thing yielding good results for all involved.) BRAVO!

Oh if only the majority of business owners were like Derek. Hard to find a lot of examples, isn't it?
By biggest bone of contention with them is they make everything difficult for indie artists - getting on iTunes, affording their highly overpriced machines and software that obsolete faster than you can blink, and the lack of sponsorship and support of music - bleh. For a supposedly atypical company, they are very typical of today's corporate breed.

There are one hundred men seeking security to one able man who is willing to risk his fortune. - J. Paul Getty
Well done Derek! Thanks. Sylvia

Yet another example of why we love you Derek.

Cheers

Thanks for sharing this Derek. I appreciate the truth.

AWESOME article!
what you did went above and beyond what i would have done!

glad to see that people like you are still in this world AND you aren't governed by the bottom line.

KUDOS!

I remember this. For the record, I was totally cool with paying the $40. It was reasonable, especially considering the manual work.

Derek
Amazing story -I remember when iTunes messed the independent sector around with these delays.
We even had an iTunes account but when we saw your company offering a FREE service we closed it and went with you
In England you would have been knighted by HM the Queen for your services to independent musicians.
Long may you reign ( as well)
Titcombes at Loose Records
(i.e. Andrew, Simon and Matthew)

Thank you for sharing..
:)

Derek, I am somebody and nobody at the same time. Choose to do too many right things, yet make wrong choices. Riddle that may sound to be, but I remember back to 70's, early 80's -I lived in Monterey and was involved in acctg and other aadmin tasks and so I sought out computers which were primitive at best - Dos and wordstar were the thing. I heard about the edge of technlogy being cooked up in garages around San Jose: Gates,Jobs, Eubanks and others It is my belief and knowledge that the others are the ones with the most innovative technology, but they were just lured into selling their goods for nothing. Many less than fair or pleasanT deals. Piracy basically. I use and love both windows and Mac - but! Payback can be a bitch. You did good, but sadly Jobs had his way with you.

Wow, great lesson to go through. Kudos.

What a wonderful story! I'd like to go on thinking that it wasn't a coincidence that you got the contract a day later.
Thank you.

great story about overcoming unexpected obstacles by maintaining good conduct ... perhaps working for the greater good is its own reward.

hope you had a lovely honeymoon and that all is well.

Great story, Derek. I was hanging on every word. My own history with Apple has been very Love/Hate, too. Bottom line is, I love the hardware but hate some of the software. Because it's the software that allows you to determine the maker's motives. I'd much rather be supporting the philosophy's of Bill Gates but frankly I can't bear the thought of going back to Windows.

Thanks for hanging in there for US.

PK

Jobs is an asshole. This is why I don't use iTunes. Well that and it's a horribly coded slow pile of proprietary monkey dung with file format support that it would be generous to call "wholly inadequate". And I don't like Jobs' attitude.

Thanks for playing ethically with your people. Sorry you got burned by the child emperor of Apple pitching a hissy fit.

i wish you would start a new company, your probably the only one many of us trust.

Honestly, I wish I could say this type of shady behaviour wasn't standard practice for the fruit company, but, having worked for them, I can tell you that this is par for the course.

Captivating story!Hm the good, the bad and the urgly experiences. You got them all Dee.

Strangely comforting to know that Jobs is such a duplicitous cretin (and here I was thinking I should go Mac. NEVER!!!)
Thank you Derek for being one of the few real men in this sewage pit of an industry. I'm grateful that you got us on itunes, but I'm sad Jobs is getting money from all of our good efforts as a result. He deserves the fate of Job...
Ah well... Onwards.

Sometimes things take time, even Apple are human, it's partly their fault for "selling" this image of perfect products but nothing is perfect and often things get delayed or changed as you work through them, maybe there were issues with the first few signups thereby delaying the rest? I'm just saying....even Super Steve Jobs is human after all. And yes I get angry with them too from time to time :-)

Yes - and over 7 years on the iTunes "selection" is as crappy as it ever was. Just logged into their store (and found out that my sign-in is only valid for the UK, while I am currently in Spain - but Apple is not the only software company imposing restrictions on the "worldwide" web), and did a search on 70s artist Wazmo Nariz. Of the 2 albums they released iTunes offers 1 (one) song.
The reason I started buying from CD-Baby was that you were were the only ones providing Gary Duncan's post-Quicksilver catalog. At iTunes now they have only one Gary Duncan album; it's called "Forest Chemistry" and looks like it's by a completely different person. But no background info is given.
I don't know what they did since 2003, but as it stands today, iTunes is still a completely useless service. And I am not surprised to hear about the way they treated you.
Good going, Derek !

great post derek, thanks for sharing your story. such are the tales of this industry that people close doors, open doors, close them etc etc. good to see you held on strong and remained loyal to all your customers.

You are a credit to this vastly over type-casted industry.

i wouldn't want to comment on Apple, as I have about 5 Macs and own 3 ipods in my office, and I use iTunes and think it is a great music store. But when I was a musician, I used Cd Baby and it was the best and easiest to use resource an indie could use.

best wishes, and again great story,
L xx

Derek, what an awesome story. It must be a vast relief to you, no longer having to deal with the Steve Jobs of this world. THANK YOU for going through all of this for us. Your dream has made so many of our dreams possible!

Thats a funny story Eric but lets hear what you are up to now that you've sold CDBaby. And do you have any comment on the way Spotify has affected CDBaby clients?

we all know what happened to adam & eve when they bit into the Apple!!

Thanks for that Derek. Good insight. I am astounded that you ever got to talk to Apple about CD baby at all back them. Apple have always been so full of themselves. As you know Simply Vocals has been trying to get dialogue of some kind from Apple for over four years now but they are so inaccessible that it just never comes near to happening. No body wants to give you a contact and certainly very few will give you the heads up on Apple megalomaniac business strategy.(today the world, tomorrow more of the world). I do know enough to steer well clear of giving any control to them or as you say ...anybody..Sony were equally and particularly pig headed and difficult as were all of the bigger companies at the time. All that they said could never happen under their watch...Well read it and weep as Indaba music and talent house effortlessly do what I with S.V. said would happen in a heartbeat. ie independent musicians collaborating and looking out for each other, major artists putting back and sharing without messing each other up. The final task of course to monitize this for everybody with a more healthy and developmental redistribution of the wealth...This is where I and SV come in...Hold on to your hats and look to Liverpool folks...The tide is turning by the Mersey.

Wow, what the hell???

I'm really disgusted by the behaviour of some bureaucrat political ego guy; why in the world would someone behave that way? It's total dictatorship - I recently bought iPad - and it's changed my life a lot - but I can't get rid of the sick feeling I have had since reading your story.

What a farce :-(

The recent headline on slashdot.org "Beware the garden of Steven" seems to have a whole lot more meaning when it's given a functional context such as this.

Hey Derek, great story. Man it's always something isn't it ?

Long live Derek Sivers, CD Baby, Android phones, and Microsoft! ;-P

Thanks for sharing! That is very true. Avoid big corps that are not reliable. If they are bad at communication then leave quick! Apple here treated you VERY badly, by not responding to your emails. Such disrespect and arrogance! Corps with such an attitude ranks very low. Good decisions on your part.

Thanks to CDbaby with you guys I would be a unknown artist with out a dollar and a dream great story behind the story Cdbaby gave us a voice !

I should say with out CDbaby I would be a unknown artist with out a dollar and a dream !

Hey D, you know what I think of you man, don't ya? ;-) Man, please create another CD Baby! We need you. Big corporations really have no heart. The devil must reside there I guess. Sad.

Don't put it past the major labels that they were getting tons of friction from back then as Apple was courting them. Steve Jobs needed to explain the low counts while preserving the integrity of the tracks already on iTunes, and also remaining inclusive moving forward.

So, I wouldn't be so sure about Apple keeping mum because of the $40 surcharge at the time. I'd just chalk it up to Apple's pre-keynote buildup behavior, especially since things continued on as planned the day after the iTunes event.
I agree! I simplified the story to make it readable, but in hindsight the timing was probably circumstance. They were busy dealing with the labels first, us last, then Jobs had to put a positive spin on the low song-count to make it look intentional. I just misread it as a final decision. — Derek

Wow Derek, that was a really shitty thing they did. They were pretty much implying that many of the artists that worked so hard to make their music were not good enough to be on iTunes. I rather buy the CD, put it on my computer then load it onto my MP3. That way I have my favorite music wherever I go and the artist still gets a profit. ^_^

Man, that hurts...

From what I've read on by other software independents who've dealt with Apple, this is very typical of Apple's business practices. Very sorry they did this too you.

Apple is not very business friendly with partners. I tend to think there are some good people working at Apple who have ulcers due to management.

Also Apple (Dell, and several others as well)ignoring the problem at Foxconn affecting the employees there (a key hardware partner) is really depressing.

that is a crazy story! sorry you had to go through it!

Apple is strange...
Thank you for CD Baby, it's great!

So dealing with Apple is like the women's silent treatment.

Your just supposed to take the hint.

Great.

I thought I loved you befor, but now I love you even more. You are my hero. :-)

Way to keep your heart focused on the truth, Derek! It will always keep you free!

Oh my... so sorry for what you went through.

A good man you are Derek! You have done so much to help independents like me. Thank you sooooooo much!

As far as your troubles go, here's an interesting perspective. A friend of mine has a saying:
"Things have a way of working out... if you let them."
:-)

There are times when each of us will work hard to keep right on the edge of the stress level; pushing ourselves to the limit of human endurance. I used to think this was the only way. Perhaps there is another more gentle path? Hope we all find it.

Kindest Regards,
John

You did right, and you can sleep well at night.

I remember being embroiled in the energy of Corporate America. As an Indigo, I found it quite stifling, so narrow and full of fear, the energy of a few 'setting the stage' and tacitly forcing others to follow, in order to fit in...causing that energy to be bigger and more than the sum of its parts, an angry dragon whose fire you can't put out.

It's amazing how the energy of a collective can bury the natural human inclinations of the individual. But alas, I believe that is exactly our challenge...an integral part of the design.

I was just pondering this morning, why is it so easy to be angry (or mean or intolerant or indifferent), and so hard to be nice?

The answer that I got was that it was clearly a part of our challenge, a part of our Free Will, but I will also repeat what I said in another post many light years away: It's so easy to let the primitive part of us take over and to simply be mean. It takes a lot of energy, however, to be nice.

So interesting! I got into CDBaby right after this and i had no idea until now.

Interesting how all these companies develop in a parallel way. At the time i got into CDBaby, the big hope for an alternative to iTunes was eMusic. They held on for a while, but gradually lost steam. And strangely, it was a LOT easier to get my music into iTunes than into eMusic.

I'm not in love with CDBaby anymore, since the change in ownership, but at least they have so far stayed true to the "everyone is treated equally" idea.

I have 5,000+ songs in my iPod, and none, zero have been bought from iTunes. Why? Because of DRM.

Derek: I wish you were still owner of CD Baby. I don't find the service to be near as good as when you owned it. The sales have dropped off too.

A second thought.... If I were a business professor...this would be a great lesson. The first mistake was Apple's...in not thinking through the criteria they wanted to use for their new itunes product. Had they invited you in individually, you could have helped them think through what you had to offer and what would be best for their business. Perhaps you could have even helped them with their pr with the public to make sure that they were delivering the product that the public wanted. They had a new product they were excited about...but had not thought through how to use it or how their customers would want to use it...and had not sought advice from industry experts (such as yourself). I think the underlying lesson here is know your audience and what they want FIRST before you try to roll out a new product...and seek advice from people who are in touch with what the public wants. It will save much frustration and embarrassment.

A typical Apple story, unfortunately.

Derek, great to see a post from you this morning! Amazing story, considering I just got a payment from CD Baby - all for iTunes downloads! Peace, Dan

They say you can go to bed with an elephant but sooner or later he is gonna squash you.

Nevermind what Apple did to you, you have been a inspiration to me and others to fight for what we love and cherish the most.

You've got character and guts, Derek.

Timing is everything. One day can mean the difference between making your move too soon and missing the boat.

...and...a good example of taking positive action under difficult circumstances. Well done Derek.

This is one of the best ways in my opinion actually to see if a person or company is really "professional"...when they don't bother to reply to you, for ANY reasons, they are not worth dealing with in my opinion.

Professionalism in this world is a rarity!!

Good post Derek!

Jobs done I guess. It never ceases to amaze me how large players think it's ok to leg others over as they ask for a leg up. Unforgiveable.

Wow! That's quite a story. I know I would've been pissed off beyond belief. Sorry that happened to you.

Bizarre-ness!

Very odd about the whole confidentiality thing.

I like what someone put above: "I am so thankful that you were put on this Earth as our savior!"

Ya, I love having a MAC, but when I worked as a temp at the company I was like, whoa....and that's not a good whoa either. Of course it was when they first moved to Austin. You've never seen so much PAPER in your life.


Cracks me up here how people are dissing iTunes and such, as if they're really gonna hurt em. Ya. For sure.

The comment Mr. Jobs made about the $40.00 comes across as seeming defensive. Of course, this is the same company that thought they could take on The Beatles ...and as far as I know... The Beatles still are not available on itunes. What kind of music distribution company continuously puts themselves at odds with one of the most successful musical acts in the history of popular music? These are interesting times, indeed.

it would be nice if iTunes could give us a report with some depth to it regarding the sale. Like which country, state and city... repeat buyer etc. Also how to purchase ad on iTunes to market us indies. They still have a ways to go i think.. still controlled by the big money boys

Did you end up recollecting the $200,000?
Nope. Digital distribution stayed a free service from that point on. It was a good decision, but that's a separate article some day. — Derek

So Apple screwed you but as soon as they let you in, you rolled over and let them tickle your... stomach.

Well whoopi-doo. I was actually rooting for you until I realised at the end that you just sold out to get into iTunes. Indy? I don't think so.

what most knocked me over was the level of integrity you had with your business, and how you decided to make it RIGHT for your customers. Apple is indeed a 400 lb gorilla (perhaps even more so today) - tough to go against the stream when they come a-callin'. Thanks for sharing the story. I'll continue to use Apple products (as I didn't think this was the point of the post), but will definitely be more mindful of how my actions impact those I serve. all the best!

After knowing you a little better from last night's dinner, what I read must have hurt you a whole lot to have made you write this. I feel with you on this, Derek. My blood will boil too if I were in your shoes... but i guess the most important thing is that you were true and sincere to your customers, and that's what really matters...

Yeah, I remember wondering what was going on and why the 40 bucks came back. I had never had anyone in the music biz ever do something like that, and that made me a Derek fan forever. Thank you for breaking that glass ceiling for all of us, and you have changed music and my own music career forever. Though I havent had much good to say about how things have gone lately (Derek, you WERE CD baby) You are always on my "A" list - as in one class act...

Ugh. It was almost as if he wanted to make an example out of you, then make
you sweat it out.

To what end? They wound up doing what they said they were going to in the
beginning, anyway.

Thanks for sharing.

Derek,
Did you reply to their scathing E-Mail? I think I would have had to.
Like: "you didn't tell us that this was confidential". Please be advised that my legal department will be in touch with your legal department". Or something to that effect, since you were right and they were WRONG. $200,000 and all that work would have been worth pursuing legally.

WOW!

Hi Derek, Apple has a track record of saying we are open to everyone, changing their mind, taking a lot of flak for doing so, and then eventually giving in. It is pretty ridiculous, but they seem to still profit from it.

Here is my personal story that is similar: Not too long ago, Steve did the same thing in regards to iPhone App developed with 3rd party tools such as Adobe's Flash CS5 iPhone Packager. They initially accepted the app (I had one App approved), then changed their mind saying no app developed with Flash CS5 (2nd App was not approved), and then eventually they changed their mind and are now allowing app developed with any tool (my 2nd App was re-submitted and approved).

You got Jobbed!

Ouch. Good lesson though, and one I see people fail at all the time. It's so easy to be optimistic and promise something and then get the rug pulled out from under you.

for all the great things apple does, it's things like this that cause me to lose faith.

Thanks for sharing this awesome story Derek! Because of you all indie musicians can now brag that their music is available for download at itunes and anyone in the world can listen! Thank you for making it happen my friend. You were born with a very very smart brain! :)

I agree with many others. This is a confidence builder in that someone cares.

So, did you require your indie artists to pay the $40 ($200K) again?
Nope. Digital distribution stayed a free service from that point on. It was a good decision, but that's a separate article some day. — Derek

Wow...that sucks.

Good job doing the right thing though. Hopefully it worked out for you in the end.

Thanks for sharing. It's certainly an interesting story, but I worry most people will miss the point. Comments on TechCrunch seem to indicate they think the moral of the story is that Apple is evil and SJ is the anti-christ.

Words to live by, Derek. Never promise anything beyond your control. I guess it's a cousin to "don't count your chickens before they're hatched." It makes you think (as an entrepreneur): How can you streamline your business to make sure your promises are always delivered? In some ways, nothing is really guaranteed, but there are definitely controls we can all set in place to create an optimal experience for us and our clients. And you did that with CDBaby when you were there, to the best of your ability. The thing is, Derek, even with this mishap, you handled it in the end with integrity, and that's what I for one remember most about CDBaby when you were at the helm - it was a business run with integrity.

I have never liked Steve Jobs to begin with. Brillant thinker but, his ego does not like people to question his vision.

Amazing story. CD Baby is the portal for independent music to become mainstream. We sell our cds at shows, to anyone who will listen. CD Baby allows for people to listen who can't come to the shows, Derek you are the man! BTW, I know..."myspace"...

Derek, Wow, I feel your pain. Your key to success is clear communication. For that I thank you.
Regarding iTunes initial comment about only placing good music - I too think things have gotten out of control. Any want-to-be part time hack with a midi keyboard, computer, software and a lot of time can put together a recording. Some good but most bad.
As a professional trained musician that practices and worked hard to develop a musical skill that can be performed live, I do find it frustrating with the person who simply cuts and pastes notes in a sequencer and the end is the Boston Symphony. Technology has made things accessible to all, and not necessarily for the better. Now, everyone can be the musician they always dreamed of without all the study and years of practice. Just learn to type.
A true musician can actually do a real live performance on a real instrument - this still takes talent and practice.
Just a thought.

Your experiences would make an epic movie...

Hmm. Apple takes itself too seriously, and could have said it was a confidential meeting up front.

On the other hand, I read the Derek notes and I can see why they freaked out when detailed contents of their presentation were broadcast to the CD Baby family.

I suppose that relationships between companies are not so different than personal relationships... If your friend says he is in a new relationship and then tells you how the first night with her went, you might tell others he's in a new relationship, but you probably wouldn't share how he got the first kiss and what it was like, unless he told you it was ok to tell..

Still, I'm left thinking that we need more Dereks in the world! Better to be a little more open and generous than is comfortable for the Apples (and governments) of the world. You set a good example.

Funny how people are true to type when the going gets tough. Mister "don't hold it that way" is manipulative and arrogant, you act transparently and honestly.

Nice.

Wow, the fact that you just sucked that up and did the best thing for your artists is pretty impressive.

You might have taken a more combative route, gotten a lot of press and, maybe, eventually, gotten the same result. But you cut to the chase for the artists who use your service and that says a lot about you.

But I think it was also important to clarify this bit of history at a time when so much is changing. So thanks for sharing it.

Totally unrelated to what you just posted, but how does it feel to have made major music history with CDbaby? It must blow your mind. I'm certainly thrilled that you came up with the idea and pulled it off. You have changed the lives of thousands of people. Mind blowing, yes?

Great story, Derek! As always, very honestly told...Thanks a lot for sharing it. It is very important to see the details of how itunes and digital music for independent musicians,started. This is a part of "music history" here! I will save this article for my future musician grand children:)

Great Story! Sucks that he dissed you and sucks that you didn't get a reply as to why they waited so long to approve your contract.

Here's what probably happened: He probably realized that he was putting his foot in his own mouth because at one point he was saying he wanted all songs ever recorded and then the next minute he was dissing you on record and excluding your company. He probably pondered about the situation and decided to put his personal views aside realizing that it was good business to have as many songs as possible on iTunes.

As a Side Note: This could make for a great independent film. Maybe documentary style? I can't imagine the other things that happened behind the scene with your company?! Could your story be the next "Social Network" movie?! Hmmm....you never know....you never know. It just might be. :)

Derek, you are an inspiration. Thanks for standing up for all of us!

Derek, what a great story!

The important part of your story is the last line, "But I never again promised a customer that I could do something beyond my full control."

Many people would have blamed Apple, kept the $40/artist, and general BMW (Bitch, Whine, and Moan). You didn't. You took the hit and learned a valuable lesson. That you relate it to us is even more valuable!

People often make promises that they can't keep. Most of them have the best intentions too. But when things fall apart they're the first to blame someone else. That's irresponsible.

The buck stops here! Well done.

Derek, your work is the legacy of music history's greaest success story and one worthy of folklore legend.

I'm proud to be an original cd baby member and to comunicate with the founder who actually cares about the independent songwriter/musician.

My hearty Thank You!

Thanks for sharing that, Derek!

Thank you for sharing, and for the really funny "amazing" video!

Hi
Its nice somebody realy
CARED.
Barbara Dee

You put your integrity first, above possible profits, BEFORE you knew that it may have been circumstance.

Bravo.

Funny, after all of that, I've been a CD baby artist since 2001 and have never found my stuff on itunes.
You have to sign up for digital distribution. It doesn't happen without your permission/action. — Derek

Derek, I have missed hearing from you. I am sitting here feeling gutted from reading that story. Thank you for one more proof of what I have always believed. The music business is filled with no talent A.H's who feed off the talent and gifts of others. I am often deeply ashamed of the stories from the MUSIC BUSINESS. I tried to retire but just can't do it. I have over a hundred and fifty families who come here every week trying to find a path through this wicked business for themselves and their children. All I know to do is teach the craft, warn of pitfalls and tell them about developing a discerning heart. To me, heaven will be a place where artists go and create and there is no need for a promoter, song plugger or salesman.
Just really good producers and musicians lifting their creations into the stratosphere. Yeah right! :)

Wait...doesn't Microsoft (Gates) own the controlling interest in Apple?...I thought he owned every operating system in the world or the major pieces of them...including Jobs.

Regardless, spreading ideas that make people hate...even if they are "just"...may not be a good idea...doesn't it all come back to you in the end?...kind of like a rushed emotional email.

Thank you Derek for sharing. Your integrity and vision and realworld connection with truth inspires me.

I've never liked the iPod/iTunes racket from day 1. I feel Jobs sold out to the big label record companies in his products, and it shows in each and every issue I have to deal with helping others make iTunes work properly. This just adds more fuel to the fire.

For me, I saw the writing on the wall on this very issue very early. I also own a Zune as well as a few Apple devices. I ripped my personal CD collection (about 1000 CDs) years ago. In applying my collection to any iPod/iPhone I own, I can get only about 1/2 or less of the albums to properly sync album covers and song information with iTunes. I get over 90% of the to sync with Zune. That speaks loudly to me on how much of the real music industry works with iTunes. The expensive guys, i.e. the ones that sue grandmoms and suck, are really the only true player in Apple's world.

I'll probably rid myself of Apple products soon. I've got my eye on the new WP7. As soon as it comes of age, I'm dumping Apple forever.

Derek, so great to have seen you at Berklee with my son, Erich. You are quite an honerable individual and few people are like you. Of course, we can all sleep better at night knowing we did the right thing.
J.R. Ridinger of Market America faced the same dilemma when he went public. Somehow, mistakes were made by an intermediary in the paperwork and he bought all of people's shares back for a staggering cost. Market America has brought in over 3.5 Billion and paid its Distributors 1.8 Billion. Like you, his altruism shines. If you know anyone interested in an on-line franchise with a company possessing the same praiseworthy creds that you have, contact me. Thanks for being on our path in this lifetime. You are an incredible human being.

Derek,

Thank you for sharing.

;-)

Hi Derek!
Very good read! Thank you ! I'm sure the actions of others, that you have encountered in the business world, is just the tip of the ice-berg... Glad you're COOL!
Loved the amazing comedy act.. hilarious!! Great way to start the morning!!
Good to hear from you Derek!
Rachel

Your experience with this situation is a great lesson for all of us. Thank you for your integrity and for sharing this with us.

As one of the bands who has music on cdbaby, I wanted to let you know how proud we (in Allus Cats) are that you are so ethical. There are many independents on cdbaby that are as good or better than the "quality" music found on the labels. As a musician and the songwriter of all our songs, I can tell "quality" when I hear it...and it's not always on major labels.- Allus Cats

Hilarious and useful as usual, Derek.

Thanks for the posting, Derek. I've missed getting e-mails from you. Thanks, too, for having created CD Baby.

Thanks for sticking to your guns! We need more guys like you!

Life has a lot to teach us. Thanx for sharing

luv

Interesting to hear the behind-the-scenes story to this pivotal event. I'm grateful it worked out.

Hi Derek,
It's the old story of power vs. love and service.

Dignity
A Voice
A Chance
One piece of the Puzzle
The Moment
Hope
I'm not a High Profiled Marketing Person; and it doesn't take brain surgeon to see that
The Music Industry is Rapidly changing.
The times are a changing.
Mathew 24 verse 14
"And this Gospel of The Kingdom Will be preached throughout the Whole world; as a testimony to all Nations and then ... "
Just look at the past,
Lets say ten years ...
Look at how fast media
Is changing ...
unbeleiveable ...

Thank You
Derek

You are an unusually Great Businessman !

You are a man of integrity, nice to see in today's business world.
good on you Derek

woah! thanks for sharing derek!!!

This story is interesting Derek and so are the numerous comments that were left. You are a stand up type of guy-that is what makes you special. People recognize and appreciate that authentic and connected approach. I know I do.

Regards, Lynn

kudos to you, Derek, for all you have done to keep indies in the game.

I think Steve Jobs is a brilliant man who respects discretion, loyalty, and selflessness.

I am floored! In spite of what happened, what is clear to me is that you Derek are a man of integrity, honesty and a person who really cares about helping us "Indie" musicians. Thank you so much for everything you do! We all know you are the person we can trust!

I love happy endings !

What an insight to the journey indie music had to go.I am glad i stumbled onto your blog and am sending a message right away. You must hav forgotten my name as a busy person.But this story is worthy to all.

The dude's head is too big to fit through a zeppelin hanger, (mp3 stinks big time and he'll crash).... All the best Derek! (ps. a cancelled my itunes last yr.. and buying a torch now) - Dave

Sounds like an inside job to me! The timing, you describe, of things seems like Apple was on the inside, and I'm sure we're not getting the whole picture. But....

For what it's worth, I've never used iTunes for buying music - I've stuck to the likes of CD Baby, eMusic or the Amazon MP3 Store, or even bought directly from the label / artist. I like Apple stuff (I own an iPod Classic and an iPad, and use Macs at work for graphic design) but stories like this just make me thing twice about buying music through iTunes...

Amazing!

Whatever. Fu##ng Apple.

Apple is a company that is incredibly innovative on one hand and deep in practices that would bring any other company to it knees, on the other hand. okay,talking about cognitive dissonance. The point here is, do companies like Apple get a pass for bad behavior just because of their statue.

I guess that's why you are able to sleep well at night - you always try to treat people right. Too bad the same can't be said for other so-called "successful" people. I continue to regard you with the greatest respect. Thanks, Derek, for sharing that story.

Derek: Fascinating story. Who knew? You have certainly been through a lot for us. If I haven't said it lately then now is a good opportunity. Thank you Derek Sivers, you're a hero.

Your story simply upholds the many reasons why I do NOT and will NOT use Apple products. They aren't worth it, they treat customers like sheep, and their corporate heads are cultlike figures. Glad that you did the right thing by the people YOU represent. You can feel good about yourself and the decisions you made.

I cannot believe the arrogance of that company.

Great story Derek, and I'm not surprised at all.

Looks like Ping is the same bullshit over again... no way for independent artists to 'claim' their Ping profile etc etc.

Heck. I knew you'd endured plenty while at CDBaby, but I never realised there was this much sh*t. Thanks for reminding us that Apple isn't the shining beacon it purports to be.

Good call man! When you handle things the right way it always works out in your favor!!

Hi Derek,
I love the stories you share with all of us and I most of all appreciate your honesty. I think you are a very courageous human being dealing with all those people who only care about money. Luckily there are things that no one can buy or trade with, friendship for example. God Bless you.

oh, that sinking feeling . . . when you think you have negotiated something for The Good of the People,and then The Great and Powerful Oz starts doing backflips. All I know is, when I approached I-Tunes Independently, and got their "Don't call us, Kid, we'll call you" (which is fine - I'm sure their staff of devoted Scottish murder ballad execs needed to thoroughly vet the integrity of my material), I got nothin', and when I had the chance to go through CD Baby, it all fell "magically" into place. Sales are healthy. You're the magic. Thank you, Mr. Sivers.

Derek,

I appreciate having my EP, "Blue Tarp: Demo Man" available on iTunes, as implemented by CDBaby. 2003 was a big year for me too, recording that music and finding out about CDBaby through a program on KUOW, the Seattle NPR station.

Not that there has been much "material success", but, as an idealist anyway, this particular Avenue into WEB distribution was, and is very valuable to me as a Communicator, both through original music recordings and other means such as blogs, etc.

Problem Solving is what you are describing, and it is good for all of us to realize that there is much that occurs "behind the scenes" in everyone's initiatives to produce and project their work, such as Music. Therefore, an illustration such as the one you share with regard to your less-than-ideal, but ultimately successful dealings with iTunes helps us all see the need to reach out to others in order to both get the help we need, as well as to give the help that others need to creatively contribute to the world at large. And we all know at this point how important it is for All of us to provide as much Creative Input into whatever will last in the System, in order for both personal and cultural advancement to proceed.

Thank You!

,Richard Carpenter
(Blue Tarp)

Too bad you were put through that, Derek. But you turned a bad situation into a positive one. You showed your integrity, by doing the right thing for the artists, by remibursing their $40, with an explanation of what transpired. That bodes well for your present and future endeavors. Kudos, man!

Derek: Epictetus 2000 years ago said that Happiness and fulfillment are the natural consequences of doing the right thing. I know you must be happy and fulfilled because doing the right thing has always been part of your DNA. We all love you and miss you.

You took a 200K hit, but you learned lessons that were priceless. As I did by reading.

Thanks for sharing Derek.

Understanding the value of the good faith created by reimbursing your artists will, I'd be willing to bet, see you through in the future, better than whatever 'clever guy' advantage Jobs may have gained with his dishonest deal dancing, if only in peaceful nights of sleep, which are priceless.

Good story, does not surprise me!

Hey, you helped us all with your efforts. So GREAT JOB DONE!

Moses Avalon has been blogging recently on silicon valley's role in killing the labels...Even though you state that it is coincidental that the contract got back to you after you made it free, it would make sense as Apple/Google and the rest have a vested interest in all online musical "content" be free....

Derek: One of the first and last lessons you learn in business is to remember what David Crockett said: "Be sure you're right. Then go ahead." As what happens daily in my life, I practice: shoot, ready, aim way too often. Your later responses made sense of what I was anticipating you would say along the way. Nothing terribly insidious going on, just people stumbling their verbal way along until they hit something solid. Had you waited one day to respond to the Job's statement, things may have turned out differently, but had you not, it looks pretty clear that the stature and loyalty you enjoy from your admirers would not have changed a bit. Thanks for sharing the story and reminding me at least, to breathe before saying or posting something I might later regret. Or not. The real lesson is life goes on and you deal. (with it) And so you did.

Derek:Thank you for your dedication to the independent artist around the world. As you know I've been in The Gambia and I've made my own Mandinga Tang-Tang and a Fula Flute with the help of masters musicians there. Hope you the best.

Thank you for that story! In a way its encouraging because it shows that at any level you can make a mistake and recover!

Great story! Never promise anything you aren't sure you can deliver. Been there, done that. Never again.

Man what a typical corporate shitwad story. No consideration for the little guy. I'd be happy to send you my $40.00 because I am selling a decent amount on iTunes. Those Apple-eating bastards...LOL

"Well we don't want to let that stuff on our site! So we've had to edit it. And these are 400,000 quality songs.”

Reminds me of the scene in Spinal Tap where the filmmaker comments to the band's manager that a decade ago Tap played stadiums and now they're playing small clubs. The manager replies "Yes, we're more selective about the audience now"

Looks like you survived being dissed by Steve Jobs. I can imagine things worse than being dissed by a multi-billionaire.

At least you can sleep at night.

Derek,
Have been through the same situation TWICE in the last 2 weeks.
You made me realise what was troubling me - promising things beyond my CONTROL.
Thanks a ton for putting it into words.
I promise myself, NEVER AGAIN!!
Once again, THANKS!
Rajiv Lulla

Derek,

Thank you for your efforts to change the music landscape. You have shown us that nice guys do win. And people will never forget that.

Dave Craig
Depauw, Indiana

I remember this time well since I had just signed up as a member. It was a great time to get in at the ground floor of something like that.

Interesting stuff. What a nightmare to have lived through. And now you can tell about it. It's good that you are speaking up about what happened to you even though it's years later.

There's a reason Job's camp has a reputation for being dysfunctional and inconsiderate (and that's probably stating it kindly) and they've made that reputation all by themselves one bad behavior at a time.

Your story made me laugh very hard. A multi-billion dollar company bullies a independent music distibutor into providing free service. And bullied you into buying their hardware and software in the first place!

Profit for Jobs, no profit for the guys doing the real work in promoting the artists. Typical.

And, as a matter of fact, our band has just paid 30 euro to a Swiss company to get our music to many digital stores, including iTunes... Hey Steve-o, how about that? :D

WOW, what a tale! Pretty sad for us old macheads who've been early adopters of Apple products. Disappointing when you consider what a viral, grassroots effort so many CD Baby artists did for Apple by spreading the word..

I saved all those posts!
And all the ones from the other guy around the same time too.
That's why you are respected & trusted.
:)

Derek -

Apple is part of the industry..innovative perhaps but still part of the problem. But you are marching to your own drummer and artists thank you. It's big.

"Once was pressed up against him (Bill Gates) in an LA nightclub without realizing it. (Microsoft Music launch party.)" - Derek

So, now you can tell us, Bill Gates, hard disc or software?
;-P
cheers
L

"I asked again, saying we had over 100,000 albums, already ripped as lossless WAV files, with all of the info carefully entered by the artist themselves..."

Now that's just dumb... Lossless rules... in MY world, anyway.

:)

I wonder if he really was putting a spin on it, or if he just flip-flopped his opinion about the whole thing.

On a semi-related note: when they introduced Ping back in September, I emailed Steve Jobs early Sunday morning on Labor Day weekend and asked him briefly and politely what the plan was for CD Baby artists.

Steve didn't reply personally, but forwarded my email to Alex Luke, Director of Music Programming & Label Relations at Apple, who got back to me that same day. Alex assured me that CD Baby artists were definitely in the queue, but asked to verify my band's name (Blaggards) so he could make sure we were taken care of. Remember now, this was on a Sunday, his day off, on Labor Day weekend, no less.

Tuesday evening, the day after Labor Day, I received an email invitation from Apple to set up a Ping profile for our band, which I did immediately.

The next day I noticed they had put us on the list of featured artists in Ping, where we remained for a couple weeks. Needless to say, we were thrilled. They were a lot of other unsigned artists in that initial featured list, too.

So, Apple isn't always corporate smoke and mirrors. Sometimes they can still be very cool and personal.

Incredible insight into the business of music. Thanks for sharing the story. The arrogance of power is astounding.

Apple's arrogance never ceases to amaze me. It is never a "we'll try" or "we'll send your suggestion to management". The just don't respond. Customer service is non-existent. Yet, this snob factor seems to breed success. I use them even though they really irk me with their corporate attitude. Go figure. Your story doesn't amaze me at all. But I'm glad it did work out for you despite some heartburn I'm sure.

T

thanks for persevering. i'm still busking in kings cross but did a song in new york which is now on itunes. it seems apple should have told you when you sent the contract what their problem was with the $40.. strange way to win friends. apple is like that. but thanks anyway for doing it.

Steve Jobs is the one reason I will never do business with Apple. He's an egomaniacal prick that surrounds himself with sycophants. I won't even let my kids buy iPhones, iPods, etc. His competitors will always have my business.

Sorry to hear another good guy got screwed by him.

That was a truly strange story.

OUCH! What an awful story! You didn't say but my hope is that most artists, when it was sorted out, allowed you to keep their $40.

Getting iTunes on board was such a game changer for independent musicians, but wow, man, I had no idea that's how it went down. Thanks for sharing that...!

I'm an artist type with a day job. I work in a law office. This is what I notice.

A deal will get talked about, proposed, passed back and forth, negotiated, altered, revised, overhauled, renogotiated and sometimes even resurrected from the dead before both sides finally say, "OK. That's as close as we're going to get to what we want and what we reasonably think we can get in this situation. It's a go. Let's do it."

The point where any party decides it works for them is totally personal. How they go about it is totally personal, or impersonal, if you will. I'm sure for large corporations there is a lot more emphasis on the math, how much money you're going to make based on a lot of variables that are not so obvious. Although monetary in result, they often are not described in legal documents in monetary terms at all. That makes things complicated. And that's why lawyers are in demand. And it takes time, as I said above, not just to hammer out the deal, but to have this lawyer explain to you what everything means. It's like having an interpreter. It can make a talk take three times as long.

This is just my own guess work, but I'm sure Steve Jobs has reasons for talking to various audiences. I'm sure there is some reason why it's worthwhile for him to do that. Could even be personal reasons as well. In the business world one typically does something if there is a perceived benefit. And if their goal is big, and they're focused on the big goal, then why should they care about the seemingly little details if it works out for them in the long run? That's very scary.

Question- is CD Baby now direct with iTunes or does it go thru The Orchard?
CD Baby has always been direct with iTunes. CD Baby never ever went through The Orchard. — Derek

Derek, i think it's amazing how positive you keep your attitude even after going through unfortunate shit like this one. Props to you! Good Luck =)

uhhhh what a lucky boy, - HE WAS!!!

Derek, you sound pretty ticked at the way you were treated by Jobs but as a Christian songwriter whose music started at CD Baby (thankfully) I'm not judging you but I am disappointed with your language. That's not being "holier than thou" its just that I wouldn't want my grandkids reading your comments.

Good story, in all sorts of ways. The big theme to me is integrity...yours.

Thanks for sharing this story and the lesson you learned, Derek. I'm going to "sleep on it" and see how I can extrapolate a lesson that relates to my work and business. I've learned the hard way to "under-promise" and strive to "over-deliver", but that's easier said than done. Hey, the fact that you returned 5,000 people their $40 is nothing short of admirable. You always have a way of making us think and to want to take nothing for granted. Thanks.

Derek, This is typical of 'big businesses'! However, CDBABY IS DOING THE SAME THING TO US NOW!!! For over a year, CDBABY has blocked visitors from Nigeria from being able to SEE the site at all. I've written many times to You, and the current crew, at firs i was told the site was being redesigned , and that It would be restored, but it's over a year since the redesign, and we're still blocked off.

I had been promising Nigerian up-and-coming artists that we can sell their CD's for them on CDBABY, All was ok till now (more than a year), when its not possible to see your CD page, IF YOU LIVE IN NIGERIA!!!!
The site works well from Europe, US, etc, but from Nigeria? no matter what page you go to, you end up here!! http://www.cdbaby.com/Contact

You could call up anyone that lives in Nigeria to check it out!!!

Well, I've always doubted Apple and their strategies, especially for the fact that they to a certain extent are leadders in digital music. Also I hate every time I see an iTunes bonus track when a big man releases an album. Why do I have to give such exclusivity to Apple to put a specific track when is all good when this particular song is wrapped in to a CD edition or a digital download sold in another outlet?

Also, why did the meeting have to be confidential?

Glad that things worked out.

Once again, congratulations for all your work in favor of the new music order.

Peace, grace and music.

Edu Camargo.

Good story Derek.
You never really know what these big guys and their lawyers have up their sleeves. Nine out of ten times people like that will take advantage of naiveness as soon as they smell it. You can never go wrong by taking the high road, and you always have.
You have done more for Independent musicians than anyone I know.
So hold your head high Brother.

Sounds like Steve knew you were charging $40 a pop to be on itunes and because he didn't want you to profit off of itunes, he waited until you refunded everyones money to send your contract back. He probably even knew that the $40 was just covering your costs for the time being, but he also projected that itunes could be very very profitable for a company like CDbaby if itunes took off. And it did, and he was right.

This is an example of the difference between people who care about the artist (ie - YOU) and people who are only in it for the almighty dollar.

Your integrity is one I respect and want to emulate!

I really wonder why you even bothered with iTunes at all; it's such a bland take-control-of-your-life-and-report-everything-back-to-a-greedy-corporation piece of software. I spose you had your reason$. :) Peace to you.

Great story. Thanks for sharing

WOW!! Great lesson to learn from! I'm so sorry you had to go through such a humiliation though. But I'm also glad things worked out in the end! :)

Hey Derek,

Thanks for giving us a peek behind the curtain.... most of us probably don't get this view.... ever... and go about our business thinking we're generally being respected and treated responsibly.

As musicians, I think we have a tendency to believe (or want to believe) that our world is different than other supply chains, but once we're in the channels, we're just like any other provider of a resource, and subject to all the games that that entails. I suppose that's just us "getting the bizness..." :-)

I've learned some hard lessons in my many years, and I often try to counsel the young charges coming up to the stage for the first time that the first thing they need to do is to keep both eyes open and trust their instincts. There are good, solid paths to making it in the music business, and there are good folks, such as yourself, willing to assist. Still, no guarantees or free rides...

Thanks for lending a helping hand to musicians of all varieties.... the musical rainbow is much more varied than the media seems to reflect, though!

Larry "never been an Idol" in MD

It's bitchy little stories like this that keep me from buying a Mac or iPod and continuing to use Linux and other open-source software so avidly.

Thanks so much for this blog and your honesty and insights into such a wide variety of things. You've been quite the inspiration to me, a fellow musician/computer geek.

I am unable to comment on this because I am just a person that lives abroad and just worked for 5 years and than I went into retirement.
But I do know that I always want to do everything myself and be on top of everything that has something to do with me. Ok I might piss some people of because I am in their face a lot but I just want things to be the way I want them to be, but I am always open for a different point of view.
But his whole music stuff well Derek you can just say Steve to kiss your *** he didn't see a good deal if it bit him in the ***
Grtx,
Roadhawk

A good story Derek.

I have no great love for the way Apple does its business but love my iMac for music production.

I'm pleased you took a stand and even more pleased that it worked out OK!

Cheers

Dick

Derek your the man don't trip because still the industry is saturated with garbage itunes is alright but Cd baby is more real and intimate with the clients which to me is REAL. Steve Jobs don't care about independent musicians he never open Itunes with a cause to support us first Fuk Itunes

If you want to judge a man's character, give him power...

"music" "business" has always been something of a paradox. While much great art has certainly been produced for and by huge corporations for money, the overwhelming majority of truly great musical art has always been produced and distributed on the fringes IME. Independents. Music has been marginalized if it would not produce huge profits, regardless of whether it was great art or not. Its one reason why I don't have an itunes account or ANY download account. I buy my music on CD from independent retailers wherever possible. Some weird ones too !
I work for a huge faceless IT company I don't want to by my music from another.

I have never really understood the cult of Apple. They offer excellent products, but most of the initial releases lack some of the basic functionality that one would want to make the product complete. Only after multiple releases do they seem to get all the the desired functionality included. Also, why is iTunes up to version 10.1. How many iterations do you need to get it right?

It happens all the time - all over the planet.

I prefer the past when a promise was a promise.

Today I trust our four legged friends before humans today.

It is clear that the "big" companes are only interested in dominating the market and controling what is available. CD Baby has a concern for the artist and the listener, not just the $.

in concept this story reminds me of the "classical rock" format on FM radio where the whole of 60-80's music was limited to 500 songs which were decided by the "cogsineri" as all that was worth hearing & the rest of the music(& artists) were gone forever. Power brokers like Jobs feed the masses of "Apple Worshipers" whose elitist attitudes are sad at best. Ry Cooder once said the best songs are never sung, the best records are never played

Derek, I had no idea. none of this matters, you still pulled it off.

Steve Jobs is a tool!!!

I remember that situation Derek. SUCKED balls. Thanks for being the one with intergrity in all this.

Can we say 'control freak'?...and the whole Apple thing has reached its cusp...sort of reminds me of Microsoft and its own trajectory... I may be a bit premature in my assessment, but the shape of the arc remains despite where I place my point...

Derek - I remember the artist side of this story and it's fascinating to hear the background. I find most executives in large companies have fairly significant egos.
I'm just glad Steve Jobs got it off his chest and accepted us (CD Baby! artists) into iTunes.
I always admired the way you ran CD Baby!. Thanks for all you have done.

Happy Thanksgiving, Derek!

Poignant vignettes, these three...

I agree with so many respondents.

Would have no idea that such goes on behind the scenes...in your head...and why would I? We all consider ourselves "average" "just plugging along". And get this...we are. So many in a vast and free environment are able to accomplish stunning things. Some, more eventually than others.

But always remember: eggs cannot be unscrambled (American proverb). Do proceed with care. Steve Jobs too may have tale to tell... And thank you so much for this wonderful Thanksgiving gift!

way to do the right thing, derek. -todd

musiclink got preempted by itunes.
jobs said "wait to you see what we have"

Artists still need free services meaning low cost and free of editorial control. especially these days.

steve has the toys - the musicians have the vibrations.

Wow !!! Really interesting story... It makes me realise (again) how some things sadly work in the music business.....

I've used CD Baby to get 10 albums on iTunes, yet I got in the game 2007 and read the contract: no guarantees. What an incredible story. I thiink Derek suffered the heartache of independent's X 5000.

No wonder you sold the business, that kind of stress is gut wrenching and heart ripping, especially for people who walk the high road like you do. Never forget that you are one great man.

Thank you for sharing Derek. It's a real adventure to build a company like CD Baby with integrity.

You are an amazing soul, Derek

I'm proud of you, Derek. Thanks for sharing this great story.

Hey Derek,

Last time I checked, CD-Baby wasn't free. Did this happen after you sold it or before?
Digital distribution is a free service for anybody already selling a CD on CD Baby. At the time, since CD Baby was just a CD-selling service, that meant everybody. — Derek

Wow, Derek, what a nightmare to go through. I'm glad it eventually had the happy ending that it did. Thanks for all you've done for the CDBaby musicians!

It is just a matter of power position, are you in charge, ore does it just looks that way.
In many things today i see that it is all about this, as an independent artist you are not in charge when you put your music out to the world, ooh sorry i shouldn't write this becouse i am now angrying many big companie's who sell independent artists in a bundle.

maybe i get angry e-mails from those unnamed companie's what the hell i am thinking, well they are taking my artwork,music,and sell sell sell, making money from my efforts, i don't see anything in return. And in some case's the artwork use is terminated by contract.

Fucking Apple, indeed. Greedy bastards. And worst. Customer service. Ever. If only their products weren't so superior.

But I gotta believe there's some diabolical genius out there who can do it even better. And to that person, I offer my services when the time is right to overthrow the empire. (How's now?)

Ha ha ha LOL, I loooove that story Derek. And Apple has the mystic of being hip. Jobs is a coporate dick just like the folks at MS. I think you showed remarkable patience, if it were me that would have been the end of a bus. relationship. Of course with hind sight you were right to eat some humble pie.

However.... you better believe I use a Mac, have since 1991.

Very Interesting, and be all of this what it may or may not be.
All I know is that unbeknownst to me, the digital files that I agreed to let cdbaby broker for me have wound up on every obscure, fly-by-night 'tom-dick-and harry sight.....I NEVER see a penny of
revenue from any of these people who also do not respond when one writes to them.....I feel, too, that the Napster and Rhapsody method of paying a fraction of a cent per play is a big bust....having someone play those songs very rarely, if ever, culminates in a download or album sale......I see a gigantic class action suite coming down the pike
with small songwriter/publishers suing cd baby or whoever is responsible for allowing these 'sheisters'from grabbing hold of our files with no intention of ever paying us a cent for sales and usage!

Thanks for this post. Insightful.

thanks for sharing...all big companies seem to be the same...without a soul...

I used to think that Apple bashers were just jealous- until I read this article.

I'm so sorry that the almighty dollar Apple and Jobs.

that should have said "that the almighty dollar rules Aplle & Jobs.

Wow, you met Steve Jobs! He's one of my greatest heroes.

But the main point here is a lesson to every company owner: if some important aspect of your business is out of your control, beware. Specially because, at least to me, one of the main reasons to start your own company is to take control of your success or failure.

Steve J Apple... Ah just don't turn your back on him. (His middle name could be 'what's in it for me, me, me, me, me')
I would be concerned about someone who says they want every piece of music recorded on iTunes. That sounds like, I want complete control.
I applaud 'CD baby's' decency. More decency and honesty in the world is the tonic.

Thank you, Derek. CD Baby changed my life in many ways.

i remember when Apple was the cool underground company doing things their way, almost anti-corporate and now they become THE corporation. The unsuccessful revolutionary dies and becomes immortal, while the successful revolutionary turns into a dictator.

Thanks, Derek. Thanks for your perserverance, your dedication to principles, and your honesty. What you have done for the independent musicians of the world probably won't be fully understood or appreciated for many years, but I certainly am happy I found CD Baby. Best wishes to you and your family for the holidays!

Great story Derek. Stuff happens when you're riding on a wave of euphoria. Like surfing no? Sometimes you get a good ride out of it, sometimes you get whooped.
Love your blog! :)

I used to work in the corporate world in IT. I saw enough in 24 years to convince me that such businesses are anything but rational. Profits (and short tern at that) trump ethics every time.

Thanks again so much for your continued insight; absolutely thought-provoking and lesson-laden.

Happy belated Thanksgiving, Derek. (Sounds better than "Happy Black Friday", huh??); among the many things I have to be thankful for, I continue to be grateful for my association with you.

Dave Jay

Derek I admire your incredible integrity and honesty. You are an honorable person, which is why CD Baby became a strong empire. Other corporations would be very wise to follow your example. You are truly a leader.

Some folks declared irony dead a few years ago. Some of you may recall that Apple really made its comeback with the tv ad depicting IBM as the evil giant corporation. Apple is now that evil giant corporation, albeit with a hardcore base of truly wonderful, creative users. Apple's predatory marketing and selling, reaching a peak with the iTunes financial model, ranks right up there with the mortgae ripoff/meltdown, the savings and loan debacle and other Republican inspired criminal financial activities. Whenever someone wants to keep your credit card number on file, watch out!

Great story. Thanks for all you have done for indie artists! The world is a better place.

To be on the frontline, leading with conviction and optimism enough to encourage a huge group of independents fragile from industry bullying, you gotta be huge-hearted, unequivocal, all about integrity and immune to greed. You are. That's why we're all here. Your demonstrating open-book artist and Goliath battles is a huge part of why so many of us have been able to continue to have faith in our own work. Thank you, Derek, for all that, all these years.

Wow... I can't believe that. Wow.... To now know the story behind the iTunes digital distribution period on CDBABY...

It's like yesterday and ya, what a difference it has made in our lives as artists.

But how interesting how a company can hold you back because of their power to do so and then let ya right in when you do what they want....

That was very honorable of you to refund all the money. I actually didn't pay at that time so I guess it was after that happened that I finally clicked the digital Distribution button with my albums...

Hope you're well Derek...
;)

In business, it's always the bottom line. iTunes didn't want the indies until other sites wanted them; then iTunes thought these sites just might sell the indies and decided they were going to get their share.

Now that was a story and you've had one hell of a journey. I've been to cd baby once before was invited by a guy called dru that use to work there.
I must say your blogs are very enlightening, all the best :-)

Derek...you are an impressive man.
How many people would have refunded that money to their clients, especially since you had already invested in the equipment.
I admire your integrity. It's probably the reason you're so successful in any endeavor.
A very interesting story. Thanks for sharing.

I think the salient point here isn't just the lesson not to make promises that you might not be able to keep ... no one would ever commit to anything then ... but to honor those that you have made to the best of your ability regardless of the cost in the way that you stuck to your ethical guns. I envy you the courage it took to swallow your pride and make it right by your customers in spite of the machinations of a collective jackass. Kudos! - Chip QNP

Derek, you have made such a positive difference in the lives of us in the independent music world. Thank you for your intensity, commitment, and pressing forward despite the corporate American bs. ~I appreciate you~ Debie Robbins

Derek, you've been an invaluable asset to independent musicians all over the world, giving them the opportunity to focus on their music while you worked out the details on getting them exposure. Your commitment, integrity and hard work is what made CD Baby so great. Thank you!

Hey D, you have always done real well by me, thanks! It's very simple, they are manipulators and you are not, keep truckin' t

Thanks for sharing that story. Those were confusing times. I'm glad to finally know what happened with all of that.

good advice. :)

Happened to me too. A prominent customer promised to use our product the day we launched. Told just about everybody that they were going to be our first customer. After launch, never heard back from them.

Taught me a important lesson. Publicize only 'after' the deal has happened !!!

Thank you for you continued support and for providing independent musicians an outlet for mass distribution!!

Thanks for sharing, Derek. Good learning and reminder for all. CDBaby is the best thing to come along since The Voice! Patricia

It's an interesting, albeit unsurprising story. Both in the way Steve behaved and the way in which you did, Derek.

I'm curious if you feel as comfortable with the direction that CDbaby has taken since you sold it? Specifically, how do feel about the expansion of the digital distribution package?

Thanks a thousand times for being yourself and doing what you do, now and then.

I try so hard to like Steve Jobs and Apple but it just gets harder everyday.

I just had a 'view' of Jobs which I would not like were I to see that reflection in a mirror...despite the money and the fame...

Steve Jobs...second biggest jerk I know, after Michael Roberts (founder of MP3.com).

Have you ever heard of that old adage, if it sounds too good to be true, it probably isn't? Well, all I can say about that is, it's not true when it comes to Derek Sivers. When he first came to me telling me what he could do, I remember saying, this sounds too good to be true. How can anyone get us on so many platforms for so little money? I just won't believe these lies. I'm tired of being had, of letting people like this use me. But that little voice inside said, what if this man is telling you the truth? The fee is not going to hurt you at all, even if it isn't true.
Well, I am so glad I listened to Derek Sivers. He's a man of integrity and everytime I turn around I'm getting a check from CD Baby. If there's anyone out there who hasn't signed up for this service, do yourself a favor and sign up. And thank you Derek for being an unknown and an unseen friend for all these years. You were truly God sent!

The funny thing about all this is that I once read a post on some Mac worship site or another that accused Windows users of being victims of Stockholm Syndrome, of falling in love with their abusers and defending them even though they were treated like cattle. If there was ever a pot calling the kettle black, this was it.

Steve Jobs is an egomaniac, and as far as I’m concerned at least a borderline sociopath. His contempt for his hordes of fanatic, religiously dedicated followers is quite evident in stories like this, or in his recent pronouncements that iPhone 4 users were just stupid because they didn’t know how to hold the phone right. Apple has turned computer nerds into compliant, fanatical doormats that will gladly buy anything they build regardless of the price. Does anybody remember the sheeplike followers of The Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh?

This business shows it's ugly face over and over again....
But we're glad we have people like you, Derek! Keep up your great and honest work!

I love CD Baby, I love Itunes. It would've been cool if Steve Jobs himself would've contacted you, seeing as how he used you as an example. But that's part of his mystique in the first place. I'm just happy we have you both, and all the other mediums to help us. Its good for people to know what you have to go through to help all of us achieve our dreams.

Keep Bangin' Derek!

Wow, thanks for sharing your story. Thats crazy and super frustrating. Reminds me that even to the best of entrepreneurs major things out of our control can go wrong and it's how we handle those situations that matters most.

That $200k you refunded (and this blog) has probably opened up a lot of doors for you that you don't realize. It takes someone of real integrity to do that, and when people realize they are dealing with someone of integrity, they want to KEEP dealing with that person, tell their friends, etc. Great Job!!!

Thanks for the story.

I remember the days when your biggest concern with CD Baby was trying to find an extra shelf in your closet so that you could fit more CDs in there. Now you're gett dissed by Steve Jobs. Our little Derek has grown up sooo fast. Hehehe.

Never thought that when I sent my first five CDs to CD Baby in'99 that it would grow to a point that my music would be available at all the worldwide download services including iTunes! Derek, you have made all of us indy artists look good by what you have accomplished! Thank you!

Very interesting. Thank you for sharing this story- enlightening.

Once again Derek, proof positive of your integrity in world that seems to have forgotten the concept exists. Also, it sounds to me like a case of a major corporation (Apple) throwing it's weight around.

In the "for what it's worth" department, right after the iTunes launch in '03 I wrote to Apple suggesting that they were blowing it by going with Universal Music's catalog, and that it would be more consistent with their brand to bring forth CDBaby's catalog...apparently they had bigger ideas, but glad we were at last included. Derek, your story is an honorable one. Great respect to you.

Cool story Derek!

And people wonder why I *hate* Apple and think they're more evil than Microsoft at their peak

I hope that lots of your clients told you to keep the money, knowing all the work you had gone through on their behalf. I know I would have.
They did. It was very touching. — Derek

Came on this post late (through another post of your's I shared on facebook.)

Interesting stuff and I will bookmark it as a perfect example of keeping integrity ahead of all else. Good stuff.

PS Your TED talks are always my favorites!

"Whatever. Fucking Apple."

This sums up apple perfectly.

Great story with a good moral - only promise what is in your control to deliver. I like that!

It was great how you honored the commitment with your musicians

What a load of selfish crap bro!

Wow, that video says it all!

harsh! and much respect to you!

What a roller coaster! I'm inspired that you did right by the musicians.

GREAT insight, thanks!

Jobs death remembered me reading this story. Whoah... fuck'n apple...

You know, I forget if I commented on this one or not, despite reading it several times. The current events of the time made me want to read it again. It makes me wonder if, perhaps, his (Steve Jobs, or perhaps the business in general) "weak spot" is control. He hadn't thought about control when he'd made the meeting, he'd just expected no "problems". When you posted about it, he'd realized he didn't have the control he thought he had. For people who live in a life where everything they do must be controlled, an action like yours (that wasn't predicted) can be a really jarring surprise!

It's a shame that things ended up this way, first stating they wanted all the independent music, then dissing independent music publicly (which automatically labels the whole business with "We're snooty"), followed by snaking back and taking their music anyway. That keynote, sad to say, would be a crack in the glass of Apple's reputation. Minute to some, but rather ugly to others.

Amazing story. I was captivated the whole time. Those guys really jerked you around and you did the right thing. Too bad you couldn't capitalize on getting the songs on iTunes.

"I had made a promise for something that was out of my control"

This happened to me too. It's hard to see the dissatisfaction of customers especially if it isn't completely your fault.

I heard Steve Jobs is really tough when it comes to business matters. Lots of tales about his cruel side; when you irritated him - even with just one simple detail that appears as a major mistake in his eyes - he'll make your business life really hard. I've witnessed such tale with a leading telecommunications CEO here in our country during the release of iPhone 3. The CEO excitedly slipped a hint of the release, so the next day he lost the contract even if they already have lots of preorders. The exclusivity of iPhone 3 distribution in our country was suddenly attained by the other telecommunication competitor of the CEO.

And that's why I never get any of those Apple gadgets. It felt like there's an act of inhumanity behind the fruit, just my instinct.

I would never be bullied into using proprietary software in order to listen to music, from anyone, ever. On top of that, a lot of the iTunes back-catalog sounds a lot worse than the equivalent songs from ligamusic (which is cheaper as well)

You have done quite a bit for the independent musicians Mr Sivers!

Thanks for sharing the story!

"But I never again promised a customer that I could do something beyond my full control."

Well that was a valuable lesson. Though a bit pricey.

U r the man.

That is an amazing story. Thanks for sharing.

Wow, that's rough. Do you think they sat on the contract until you made that move or do you think it was pure coincidence?

Wow.

I find the whole thing to be unprofessional and so passive/aggressive that it makes me sick to my stomach. And no one from Apple could, I don't know, talk to you about it?

Had I been one of your musicians, I would have understood about the $40 and gladly have paid it, because I get it, you know? You're a stand-up guy and I think eating the fee to get your artists up on the site was probably the right thing to do, in the sense of doing the best thing for the artists, but man, that had to have been rough.

Thanks for telling your side of the story. I'm glad you had the chance to set the record straight. Too many people look at Steve Jobs as this visionary who could do no wrong and that isn't right.

thats a great story - I have a feeling Jobs - was keeping his eye on you.

Curious - whats your take away? Positive? Negative?

check out Porters 5 forces. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porter_five_forces_analysis.

You had no bargaining power. Thanks for sharing you learned lesson.

Jobs was a jerk! Imagine now if you had captured that meeting on a video! Proof of Jobs being a little rotten apple on U-tube!
Imagine what it would have cost you in attorney's fees! Yikes!
You did the right thing. I hope you have made a fortune of your own by now.

"What does it profit a man if he gains the whole world and lose his soul?"

Apple is an evil empire. You shouldn't feel bad.

Great experience and thanks for sharing it!!!
I really lived it.

That's the kind of creature Steve Jobs was! :)

I very much appreciate your integrety and good intention. This story is a great example of that a a huge test of integrety for any company to have done what you did back then $200,000 then is worth a lot more now. My professional hat off to you.

and that sir is why Apple never received my business and never will....

This is a good point I must always remember "But I never again promised a customer that I could do something beyond my full control."

I fully agree with your decision of returning $40 to your customers. You did the right thing. Sometime you make a loss, but I am sure you don't regret it, not now atleast :-)

I'd heard Mr. Jobs was not the nicest man but I'm sure glad it worked out for you. You have good ethics!

I was eagerly anticipating a comment at the very end like "and then after we had uploaded all the songs, Apple told us to send wav files instead and Steve Jobs said it was all his idea."

And people wonder why I won't buy Apple products. Your story = one more reason.

Hi Derek! Our last conversation (many moons ago) included my jokingly asking if you would like to join my efforts at uniting the world...kind of, anyway I was using a diff email than this one and you indeed remembered me from our very first conversation! I was impressed! and my request of your joining me was actually a joke but you were most kind and gracious in your "sorry I can't help" reply :-) anyway thank you for sharing this story! One of my goals to help kids (especially foster kids) is to have a place where they can read people's life experiences and hopefully gain some much needed guidance in their descision making. This event that you have shared with all of us is one way to really help many people. Good luck in your future ventures! I will keep an eye out for your reply if you choose to give one, take care! Sincerely, Stephen Swanberg.

What a great story and lesson in wonderful community service... (I didn't error) - You were in service to your (CD Baby) community and you went beyond the call of duty. Thank you for sharing!

Hi Derek,

I was reading a blog on hiring software engineers. One of the comments mentioned you. Nice honest story. Just wanted to let you know. from India
Thanks Kabeer! — Derek

That's just great. Very, very interesting. The writing style appears to be beautifully simple. To achieve such apparent simplicity can sometimes be quite complicated : ). Well done. Thank you.

WOW! What a position Steve put you in but I love the fact that you refunded the musicians who always get the ruff end.

"Steve Jobs made jail cool." --Richard Stallman
☺ — Derek

Unbelievable is right... What a jerk move. Message received though, thanks Derek!

I purposefully don't have iTunes, or use Apple products, because of the asinine software not being compatible with anything else. (Heck, even their phone chargers aren't compatible with Android phones! It's ridiculous!) I actually used Napster for a few years in the early 2000s, and have had a Rhapsody account for 5+ years. I use Podcast Republic for the podcasts that are on iTunes, which is how I found you & your site. I just listened to your podcast w/Tim Ferriss.

I feel like I barely know Apple, but that sounds exactly in line with them. Because of their insistence upon their own proprietary format, I got rid of iTunes as soon as possible. It was all Amazon from then on.

It sounds like you were, in many ways, the bigger man here. Very impressive, thanks for that.

What an awesome story

Good, you learned the lesson. Some never do.

Difference between you an others,is you did everything possible..no matter the hard hard work..and cd baby succeeded!!

Thank you for sharing... Another invaluable life lesson!!!

Love the last tidbit...a takeaway we all can use

Oh, I know why I hate Apple with a passion. I admire your patience, I really do. I don't want to hate anyone, and Apple makes that a bit hard for me... :P

Well now he's dead, soooo I guess you win long-term. ☺

Thank you!

You are a very smart. I have learned several things by reading some of your articles. I certainly will be reading more.

Sincerely,
Denise
www.DeliveringHopeFoundation.org

Well if steve jobs is against you then you must be doing something right! And look where you are today!

Good job on being such a benevolent person!!!

Reading this ~6.5 years after writing.

So, so timely.

Big companies and governments do not exist to benefit the little guy. They exist to consolidate power.

Thank you for always leading by example, even when it's clearly the harder of two choices.

Sadly I come to this post rather late but it echoes my own experience with Apple in a very, very small way. I set up podServe, the UK's first CD ripping service. While getting some marketing initiatives going I cam across Google Adwords so rare a campaign based on search terms including "iPod" and "Apple iPod". Boy did that convert, happy days.

Until it was blacklisted. Well, fifteen years ago, you could phone Google in London and talk to a human. "It's a copyright term, Apple won't let you use it". I protested that both Apple and Google are US companies and they can't do this under US law. No said Google UK, Apple are using UK trademark laws to stop this.

I rang Apple - come on guys, I'm not harming you. Hey, getting digital music into the hands of my clients actually helps you sell top end iPods. Give me a break.

No, no. no no no. I was told this came from so high up in Apple there was no use even thinking about appealing to their better nature. To this day I'm still bitter that a perfectly acceptable procedure in America was stymied for me in the UK by some kind of spoiler attitude from way on high.

Haha wow - I don't know the deal behind all that with iTunes, but it was really cool reading about the process that made independents viable. Thanks for your work Derek, we may not be here today (or in the same way) if it hadn't been for you and CD Baby.

I finished that big white book about Jobs. Then my friend asked me, "So was he a good man?"

I said, "No." He was a good capitalist, but I would not have wanted to be his close relative or a close early-startup employee, based on how he behaved in the authorized biography.

Interesting in that Steve Jobs was one of rhe two people I had the opportunity to meet but declined and thought about afterward.The other was Bill Gates.
With Bill Gates a friend had joined Microsoft and wanted me to meet Bill. My friend said he will love you bags of ideas and able to,execute. With Steve Jobs my visit to PARC to see their work station impressed them. They said join us you are the guy who could impress Xerox top brass how important is the stuff we are doing. An executive who is a programmer and loves Technology.
Sorry guys chained to my present employer with chains of gold and a top hat pension plan. Let us arrange a meeting with Steve Jobs. He came last week and has similar ideas to,you. I consulted friends who knew both Bill and Steve. They said don’t meet them. They have no manners and Steve is a hippy. You won’t like them. I regret not meeting Steve.

It was like i was watching a movie. Thanks. And there are pretty old comments here. SO this one is new here!

You're so lucky! Most times when a person breaks their NDA, they get cancelled. CD Baby still got on iTunes. :]

Hello Derek Sivers,

thank you for writing „Anything you want“, I learned a lot from it (and I highly agree with the lesson „it’s about being, not having“!!!). The fact that you kept the book short shows that you value our time - Nothing felt redundant.

I just couldn‘t quite understand this particular story though (maybe it‘s because English is not my first language). Why did you put this story in? What can I learn from it? Was Steve Jobs mad about the 40$? If so, why?

If you don‘t find the time to answer, thanks you still for sharing your stories ! I hope you will publish more books on Entrepreneurship
I was sharing lessons learned from building a company. People thought this was an interesting story with an important lesson at the end. — Derek

Eleven years later...

CDBaby is gone. I used to buy CD's from them by the rack, ten at a time. It was a great way to discover new music. iTunes? Not so much.

And CDBaby is gone.

It must take a certain kind of hubris + narcissism to attack the system gatekeepers only to insert yourself as the replacement.

He wanted that power for himself and didn’t want to share it with any of the other gatecrashers.

So there's actually something like this. Interesting!