Shed your money taboos

Reminds me of what Walt Disney once said, "We don't make movies to make money; we make money to make more movies."

Anshul hit the nail on the head.

Its interesting to see how differently people react when you ask for monetary compensation. Especially if you have a track record to back it up.

Very true. Also, too many people do not value what they get for free.

Thanks.

My 2 cents... I believe the essence here is to provide a product or service (music could fit into the category of service) that is more valuable to own or experience compared to the money used in exchanged.

If this is fully understood by the creator, the product or service will be mastered so that it is a no brainer for the customer to hand over the money in exchange.

The customer will feel that they are getting value through the perceived benefits and the creator will get the money.

If the product or service is mastered it can be branded and marketed so as to amplify the exchange to make more money.

Thanks,well put.

running a non-profit in catholic churches puts me right in that spot of wanting to give, but having to choose to pay the mortgage and expenses of a small, music based non-profit. We are constantly negotiating with pastors and stumbling over value versus cost issues and what is acceptable for the church (I wish they all agreed just once).

Fundraising is another area where you don't get if you don't ask. I would love to talk about our small non-profit which supports the work of 11 Christian artists, all on CD Baby (thank you by the way, we miss you there).
I understand that you did a lot of charitable giving after the sale of your business, though I've never had the opportunity to meet you or discuss whether you are still supporting any charitable organizations like ours.

Amen!

For years - so many years - I did what I loved doing for no money, and did really challenging work (which was admittedly also rewarding but wow, it was also cumulatively really HARD) for money.

Then, in a time of transition and questioning and upheaval, I saw a little documentary film called "Queens of Heart." I saw people - these amazing drag queens - doing as much good in the world as I believed I'd been doing, AND having great fun doing it... and making money... AT THE SAME TIME.

Wow. That was an awakening.

This prompted me to ask,
Could I do what I do AND HAVE FUN AT THE SAME TIME and get paid for it?

It's only taken me about a decade to get OK with the getting paid for it part, but I'll tell you, that alone was a massive revelation: the idea that it was possible.

Today, I do what I do
I love what I do AND
the money is following,
mainly because I'm letting it.
I stopped blocking it.

How?

People like you said it could happen.
That it was OK.
Why did we think we needed permission?
Any of us?
I dunno. We just did.

Derek - was there a time when you needed someone to tell or show you it was OK (and wise:) to have all three of these things at the same time?

Thanks Dereck for continuing to stir the pot... always good thoughts. This topic has been an interesting one for me to observe and learn from in my 23 year career making my living from my music. I also very much appreciated reading Kurt's thoughts below... because I too market much of what I do in the Christian/Religious market. The truth is there is a "business" side to the music industry and the Religious market as well... I think sometimes the trick is to learn to understand the subtleties of it all. Sometimes speaking the language of the market you are relating too, or let's face it "selling" too... is the key.
Being too precious about the idea of "being an artist" and "creating art" can get in the way of learning the language and subtleties or the market you are working in. I know I spent several years trying to figure that out and also getting my feelings hurt along the way. But I think I may have a handle on it finally ... even still I'm learning every day and that's why I always appreciate reading stuff from Derek Sivers. ☺

I needed this message today. My single just came out on CD Baby

Derek - this is perfect! Value is relative - and of course our art is valuable to ourselves - the understanding in the market is when we can gauge how others perceived.
"The unhappiest musicians I’ve met are the ones who avoided the subject of money, and now are desperately broke or need a draining day job. It may sound cool to say money doesn’t matter — to say “don’t worry about it” in that negotiation moment — but it leads to a really hard life. Then ultimately your music suffers, because you can’t give it the time it needs, and you haven’t found an audience that values it.

The happiest musicians I know are the ones who developed a valuable aspect of their skill, and confidently charge a high price." BRAVO!! I literally just emailed you a question on this topic...

Derek,

You introduce the subject “money” and tell them they should care but you really don’t give any input on how to solve it. From what I’ve found working with sales people and helping people with negotiations, you need to really dig into their beliefs and childhood associations with money. For example a hen I started really doing well, I felt guilty. Millionaire Mindset has some good questions and exercises for people to evaluate theie beliefs about money that may be holding them back.

It would also be helpful to give them an exercise or two to take action and make progress. Or a list of your recommended reading.

On a separate note what I would really be interested in hearing about is your process for “hell yes”. Have you spoken anywhere on the internet about how you have the guts to follow your hell yes advice?

I’m reading Atlas Shrugged by Ayn Rand. The best book to learn about the respect for money,

Amen.

So often, in the spirit of generosity or just wanting to "be a nice person" or not to "seem greedy," I have done work for free, allowed my music and photography to be used for free, and given my time and expertise for free in various ways.

Virtually every time, I have been taken advantage of and it's never felt good, like giving someone a gift. It just feels like getting shafted. Shafted with a red hot poker from the bowels of hell.

Well said! And I'll thank other musicians to not drive down prices for the rest of us! Too many use "I'm not in it for the money" as a cop out for not being able or willing to handle the business end. They undersell themselves, undercut the rest of us, and then act try to commend themselves for some falsely perceived nobleness.

Amanda Palmer had an interesting TED talk on money. In her view it was not about making people pay but letting people pay. Audiences actually want to reward you.

I like to charge money. This is healthy capitalism. You have a good head on your shoulders young man!

You could add this statement which is true to your ethos.

And after all is said and done. You have the money and feel comfortable. if you still have an issue with the volume of money, give some or most away. Try Charitywater.org.

I like this. Good ol' common sense. Thank you Derek!

Very well put Derek..should have done it years ago..I always undercharged and gave a lot away.Haha, too late now to change.

Word.

this article goes across everyone on the planet. Believing we are valuable and giving great value.
I love Anshul's comment, well said

My frustration is with musicians that complain that they don't get paid well (or at all), but aren't good enough to get paid well. These people that feel like the world owes them, and they should get paid for being musicians, when in reality they just aren't delivering enough value to the client to make them worth money to them. I think an important part of this money conversation is having a realistic understanding of 'where you're at' and working within that constraint, instead of whinging about not getting paid enough.

Hi Derek!

I am not a musician, but I learned it very hard way. Thanks for sharing the thoughts

Thank you Derek, that's exactly what I needed to read in this moment

I couldnt agree more!

A helpful acronym for money is...

My
Own
Natural
Energy
Yield

Thx Derek

Agree, and my top 7 tips.

1. Put a price on your work
2. be realistic
3. I am constantly amazed to find so many artists and bands don't actually discuss profit splits and money til its too late. Then they implode.
4. If you are working with artists, for example you are producing or engineering, lay down whats gonna happen at what price, a lot of folk are delusional.
5. same goes for video work, bands can be a bit dreamy head in the clouds, best to be clear about what can be achieved and at what price.
6. Become a musician only to realise there is no money left in music and should have become a programmer.
7. become a programmer

Hey Derek
Nice articles and articulate in the delivery.
There is so much more to it than learning
Music .
Iin conducting business, I always strive to maintain personal relationships and treat everyone nicely in an organization
From the CEO to the janitor
Thank you
Bobby Lebel

Much as though I don't, want to believe this, I know that it's true..

It’s so true that many of us have an unhealthy relationship with money. Despite what religion or our families teach us, lack of money leads to hardships in this world of ours unless aceticism is your path. Think of earning money as trading your life hours for it which is precious and non renewable.

Derek -

These thoughts on money apply equally to salespeople, engineers, support reps, executives, marketers - they apply to all of us in the business world, too.

Many of us, even non-musicians, believe we have a special sauce worth paying for; unfortunately, most of us feel uncomfortable charging for it even and have no idea how to.

So to all you non-artists out there that thinks this doesn't apply to you: it does.

Still there are people that might love your music but will download it free off the net if they can, and tell you they have all your music and love it. as if complementing you but not compensating you.

Hi Derek
I’m not a musician but this article still resonates with me in the mortgage industry I work in. Thanks for sharing

Eric The Swedish Meatball

Thanks Derek. I think this is something not only every artist, but everyone who deals with and supports artists needs to read. But at the very least, me.

I also find it interesting that people say you shouldn't talk about money. If you want to learn about something that you aren't good at...say money...you usually immerse yourself in the study of it, talk to others about how they made it, etc. If you wanted to become a great cook, you'd buy a great cookbook, watch videos, perhaps take a class, or go to culinary school. You'd practice it. Same goes for money. The fact is, money, for the time being, is how we exchange goods and services. As you mentioned, it's not bad or good. It just is. Treating it as insignificant is not beneficial to living the life you're meant to live. So yeah, quit treating money like it's the devil. it's just paper.

How does that (especially last sentences in this post) regard your other post - "Art is useless, and so am I" (sive.rs/useless)?

This totally reminds me of a book I read recently called "thou shall prosper" - by Rabbi Daniel Lapin. The biggest takeaway (for me), is money is a symbol of the value we create for others. Bring more value, make more money :)

Derek, this is SO TRUE. Some think that sacrificing for your art is meant to be this road with a money taboo attached to it. But I am glad you said it. We live in a real world where, if you are not financially savvy, you will lose your ability to have time to be creative. I wish I had known this when I started out in music. Well, I know now and I am building safeguards into my music company as a result. It's been a long and tedious process, but God willing, I will find a way forward. There is also a spec nature, especially when you are a music producer trying to demonstrate your value in this industry. However, after you have done that, you have to value the time you have invested into perfecting your skill set, and indeed, charge a high but fair price for that skill. Thanks for this!

I believe King Solomon would have concurred with you, Derek, because in the Proverbs written about 3,000 years ago, he wrote:

27:23 Be thou diligent to know the state of thy flocks, and look well to thy herds. For riches are not for ever..

And if you should question if Solomon had divine wisdom wise, here is some sound advice from the man with a thousand wives (due to political alliances):

21:9 It is better to dwell in a corner of the housetop, than with a brawling woman in a wide house

I'm a subway busker, and know of what you speak. I keep improving as a musician and now make more money before. This, at a time when less people carry cash. It makes people feel good to give.

Derek,

Are you aware that if we don't stop Spotify, Pandora, etc, the music industry will die ?
http://musicianroyaltyripoff.org/

Dave Kaspersin
President
Dynamic Recording Indie Label
Member of cdBaby from the start.

This is such a fundamental concept that must be understood by anyone trying to improve in any field. Most of us have some issues around worthiness. Let's not let those emotions bleed over into our art, career, whatever...
The sooner we charge what we're worth, we will instinctively want to produce the best product we can, making us better at our art, career, whatever...

Excellent post! And something so many musicians need to hear. I've never understood why 'artists' feel like asking for money for their work is a bad thing, or that they are selling out.

There are exceptions but it seems the best professional sports teams are the highest paid.

I’m one of those people who gives their music away, generally as a gift to someone I meet at a gig, maybe after we’ve had a nice conversation about my instrument. I play the mountain dulcimer. Sometimes people will say. “Oh no, let me pay you!” and I make a sale where I probably wouldn’t have before, even though the CDs are there, laid out nicely for people to ask about. Other times I’ll give a CD to a friend or acquaintance, and people always act very surprised and grateful. My problem is, I still want something in return. I want to know that they listened to it. I don’t even really care if they like it, I just want it to be heard. It causes me stress, because I may see that person occasionally for a year or two and they don’t say a single word, and then, suddenly out of the blue, they’ll go, “Hey, I was listening to your album yesterday. I really love it!” Great, but...couldn’t you have mentioned it sooner instead of leaving me with all my neurotic thoughts for so long? Maybe they hated it? Maybe they lost it? Maybe they haven’t even heard it yet? I truly do not do music for the money but I do appreciate some feedback now and then! To be fair, my music gets excellent reviews when I get off my butt and send it to writers and editors. It’s my damn problem and no one else’s. I give it away because I’m proud of it and I’m afraid no one will hear it if I don’t, and I hate to leave a gig without SOMEONE having the opportunity to hear my recorded music. I guess when I give it away I should stipulate that they must listen and respond in a couple of weeks. Maybe sign a waiver! Even if they hate it, I would seriously like to hear about it. Though I doubt they would. Or I could just ASK FOR THE DAMN SALE. I guess that is what good salespeople do.

👍 💲💲💲cha-ching
Yes your 🎼 🎶 🎵 is valuables like a 💎

This is so true... For decades I struggled on the topic of money. I never went destitute but always in debt and have so much angst asking for money from people even when we already agreed on the amount and service already rendered, precisely because I have this deeply ingrained belief in me that I'm taking money away from them and it caused them pain, like the way my dad used to demonstrate to me when I asked him money even for school stuff. He'd go on and on about how difficult money was to come by and I hated the feeling that it was pain for him and pain for me asking for it. Once I started working through my money emotions and grew confidence and appreciation in my own expertise and value that I start making money easily. Now money seems to come looking for me. I don't even do any promotion for my work at all and often couldn't understand how the jobs find me. And I'm doing what I absolutely love doing and derive a lot of joy from seeing people transformed by our work together. Btw, I'm a life coach helping people heal emotionally.

YES!!

Derek,

Strong words for those a many of self doubting, insecure and feeble artists... like we all are to some extent. But true never the less! Having some basic skills and method of how to handle business as an artist is sometimes make or break. I've seen many a talented artist never get anywhere (which means money and success), not because of ability and skill, but lack of ability to address this area. The value is the right word and are many taboo's - another one is that folks tend to under value when the the price is low and certainly if it's free. There is a default aspect to something that is expensive (shopping in Nordstroms vs Kmart) is good and worth it. Sting once quoted a gig that took two hours to drive to for a two hour gig at $1200 (if I remember the cost) and when they said that was too expensive and what would it be for just playing one hour, Sing said $1500. It was going to take more time and energy respectively to play for less time! Regardless to say, hey got the gig and they paid him! You're well travelled and experienced more out of country then I, but would say that in the US - at least in the last 20 years, this has gotten harder and harder. Art is a dual edge sword and though we rely on it, may folks in this country don't acknowledge
it or want to pay for good art! It's a broad statement, but in a country that cars, cells phones and pharmaceuticals drive the economy, it's basically true. So, while in my mind it's much harder, you still have to charge what your art should be worth.

Hi Derek,

Hmmmm. I think you could go into a lot more detail on money issues. There's so much work to do there, for everyone, especially people who tend to think more deeply. There are many people I know who understand the sham of the money economy and have a difficult time not making that an excuse for staying poor. This is such a deep well I think you could, again, talk about the psychological/spiritual/emotional toll of the economic world we live in. This article could use some examples of real life stories to illustrate ways people deal with it. And drawings too!

Peace,

Tamara

Last year I sold my first product online. I didn't have any mental barriers to promote myself, but I was afraid of people calling me a sellout. I want people to perceive me as someone who genuinely contributes to the community.

Before the marketing campaign started and the product launched, I had to revisit the animation of - How to be useful to others at sive.rs/d1u - to remind myself the money I was going to make is a marker for how much I had helped other people.

Yikes - do I dare comment.

This is so far from the truth. I find the opposite is true. When you truly release the hold money has on us and move beyond 'money or no money' - then that's when true peace and happiness begins. Birds sing.

An interest in music or recording goes way back before we even knew what money was - and our interest will continue long after money is relevant.

Coming free of money - into the moment - is where creativity happens. Richard Bach has a PostIt note on his Mac when he's writing and it says:
HAVE FUN
DON'T THINK
DON'T CARE
It's really the rule for everything.

Valuing who we are has nothing to do with money. I would say: Always underestimate the value of money. Money is not the reason for doing anything.

Money isn't neutral at all - it is buying into the system - selling your soul to the machine. "Come in here dear boy have a cigar..." Money is the big scam.

The value in a song isn't it's price. It is intrinsic to the art.

Money shouldn't be the last thing that is considered - don't even consider it at all.

This is great!! "So by focusing on making money with your music, you’re making sure it’s valuable to others, not only to you."

Yes! Valuing yourself as a musician is a key to abundance and happiness in the biz. I did years of lugging heavy gear around playing at any place and for any one who would have me for anything they would pay (or not pay) me. The more I valued my self and my craft, the better my situations got and the happier I was. I will still play different kinds of gigs on occasion but it's because I want to and not because I think I should(and other fear based reasons.) Nowadays when I go to work and I know I'm well paid and taken care of, I feel so lucky to do what I do. I'm not necessarily much more skilled than I was back when I took any gig I could get - I just respect myself more and as a result have raised my standards.

The one thing about this post that I would ask you about Derek - is the sentence "Money is nothing more than a neutral exchange of value."
Is value really the right word? Isn't the idea of value very skewed by societal prejudice? I have met some people in my travels that are incredibly giving and kind - things which I find incredibly valuable - but they are not asking for or receiving money for these valuable traits.

I am sometimes struck by people's relationship to money which at times mirrors Victorian England's relationship to sex. At once fixated on it, and fearful and resistant of its sway.

Right on the money as usual Derek! (Pun fully intended). :) I see a lot of people in my local area complaining about club owners, complaining about money, etc. You want to get paid you have to provide value. Treat it like a business. Build a fan base, bring people in and get paid.

Thanks for the essay...it is reminding me to reevaluate the value I bring to my clients.

That was awesome.

Good post. The same can (and should) be said for all artists.

my fiverr work
ttps://www.fiverr.com/s2/bc1685974e

I’ma yoga teacher who struggles with ‘taking money from people’. Thank you for this alternative perspective. I’m going to print and keep it with me.

How true this rings! Im getting better at it but still no master

I agree. An Energy Exchange.

So true! It’s not money it’s the value you are providing.

Here's a perspective:
Being an artist is like a one man business.
Business philosopher Peter Drucker wrote that profit is the cost of doing business.
If you won't pay the cost, you won't have the business.