We don’t need to use what we make

I've reconciled myself to this in general (I work in telecoms and do all I can to minimize my phone use), but I do think further consideration is required when what you do comes up against your values. For example, I could imagine it being uncontroversial to be a vegetarian cattle farmer for health reasons, but what if it's because of ethical or environmental reasons?

It's hard to make something good if you're not consuming it yourself.
Example: you build a better software if you're going to consume it yourself.

Drug dealers don't take drugs.
… in theory. — Derek

I work for a trillion dollar ad company but I don't ever ever click on ads. I block them, and where offered I pay for free content just to be rid of them.
Great example! Thank you. — Derek

@WZR have you met a drug dealer? Most do. Clever ones first take, then cut. Others are more desperate.

I don't think this comparison holds water necessarily - especially compared to the examples given of derek.

A different perspective:

A chef must be better at tasting than they are at making food.

A musician must be better at finding places they would like to improve their music than they are at improving it.

Your taste must be better than your execution, because how else would you know what to improve?

A chef who has sampled every dish in the world has more refined taste than one who has only eaten their own food, and so have a higher ceiling for what they can create.

As folk wisdom has it, "The cobbler's kids go barefoot" and "The mechanic's car goes clunk."

A famous CBC radio guy who interviews musicians admitted he doesn't listen to music without multi-tasking.

With knitting (and other forms of fiber crafting), there are considered to be 2 types of knitters: Product knitters and Process knitters.
Product knitters being focused on what the end result will be, such as a specific sweater for an event, a perfect gift shawl for a wedding, stuffies to sell at the farmers market, etc.
Process knitters focus on the meditative process of knitting, or its easy portability for making waiting rooms bearable, or using the motions to stim.
There is obviously overlap, but that's what this makes me think of.

Derek - So good and spot on!!

I rarely go to conferences if I am not speaking there.

I never listen to podcast interviews even though I've hosted over 450 of them (including a great one here: doitmarketing.com/podcast/derek-sivers/ )

The one exception in my case is books, which I love to read and I've written 3 of them, following the mantra "Write the kind of book you'd want to read"

But certainly there's nothing wrong with not consuming what we produce. After all, you are not your audience. You should know them intimately, care about them deeply, but you do not need to be just like them.

If I recall, Benjamin Disraeli, former UK-president, used to enjoy writing novels himself, but disliked reading them.

Yes, although I had been in the restaurant business for 17 years, which is actually the hospitality and PEOPLE business, I grew to dislike dealing with people, but I still genuinely liked the business, as I enjoyed WATHCING people enjoy the food; and good food brings people together from all walks of life. I just got tired of dealing with people. :)

Very true!

Maybe like Leo Fender... I understand he didn't play the guitar.

Also a musician, not consuming a lot of music. Thank you for making me feel this is ok.

I'm like that too with music. Most of the stuff I've consumed was for "research" - to see what the other guys were putting out and where I fit.

I'd rather play ANY sport, than watch even my FAVORITE sport.

There's some value in the learning process of observation and analysis of the greats -how Steph Curry gets his shot off, how Bono worked the crowd- but I think for many creators the reward is in the doing much more than consumption.

It feels a little like grifting when you don’t buy what you sell. Cuz then it’s just a paycheck and your sales skills. Like a doctor who pushes a vaccine but wouldn’t get it for her own kid.

I drink saltwater every morning! 😁

That was me too!
I always used to feel kind of embarrassed that I knew so little of the local bands while I was gigging.

Not the same but, this always made me chuckle. I have a friend who was an Intelligence Officer in the Army. Any time someone questioned her intelligence, she said you don’t have to be on fire to be a Fire Officer.

More than a decade ago I moved to a big city and needed a job. A friend said his boss was hiring a barista. I went and met the guy. “Can you make coffee?” “Sure” I said. “Pretty sure I can.” “Ok, be here tomorrow and make me one.”

So I stayed up all night watching YouTube videos. Hours of them.

Next morning I made the boss a pretty decent coffee and he hired me on the spot. “Not bad for your first time on that machine.” Little did they know.

I was with that cafe for about a year. We had some wild times - I once made 700 coffees in one day with only one supply head, and water siphoned from bucket. At an eco conference. With 7 different kinds of milk.

A few days after I’d left them they won best cafe in the district. I like to think I played some small part in that. Maybe one of the greatest bookends to a job I’ve ever had.

But the wildest part of this story is that I never drank coffee - I went by colour and smell and no one could tell the difference. Not a drop. Or they were too polite to say anything. We will never know.
:-) — Derek

Similarly, we don't need to make what we use. Nor even appreciate it. Saw a recent interview with Danica Patrick (super successful racecar driver) where she said she doesn't even like cars per-se, and nows almost nothing about them, except how to drive them and win races.

I see this can happen if you treat the job just as a job. but if you love your job and really care to do the best, how can you not want to experience what the receiver will experience to improve your craft?

I actually stopped doing drugs after my drug dealer choked to death on his own vomit while high and drunk one night. Sometimes it's better to NOT use what you make/sell!

I work in the arts, helping other artists get grants and to succeed, and at the end of the day I'm too tired to make my own art.

I am a TV host who doesn’t even own a television at home

I'm in the rooftop solar game. After many iterations of "strategy", I've landed on the conclusion that while you've got expensive installer labor on site, put up as many solar panels as your roof can accommodate. Many engineers (I am one too) cannot bear the thought that during various times of the year, some of the solar output is "wasted" as neither the home nor the network it is connected to will want this excess production. Your heading "we don't need to use what we make" grabbed my attention. For the situation I described above, I make the observation that the sun is hitting your roof whether you choose to grab its rays or not. So the engineers' fear of wasting energy actually happens by not harvesting the energy. And ... you really don't need to use what you make.

Definitely true for me and probably a lot of other people. I've been doing improvisatioal comedy for 40 years - performed, directing, teaching - yet have rarely, if ever, gone to see improv, unless i"m performing on the same bill.

i loved this thought. i have been making compositions/records for the purpose of being sampled and used in hiphop & rnb records. however, i find myself often not listening to a whole lot of hiphop & rnb as a fan (though there are some artists i LOVE). i tend to listen to more alternative music overall. this always troubled me a bit. how could i be working on records that i wasn't even a fan of as a consumer...? this post makes me feel better about it.

As a retired police officer, I'd hoped I would never need what I gave but alas! Life (and death) doesn't always play nicely.

One of my least favourite tasks as doing next of kin notifications. Delivering such awful news is never easy and always emotionally draining.

The night the police knocked on my door at 2am to do next-of-kin notification of the suicide of my daughter was next level tho. I hope no-one ever knocks on my door at 2am ever again.
☹ — Derek

Someone who likes to give a massage and one who wants to receive it seems like a good match to me : ) Guess that works for music too

I love recording video, but watching videos makes my brain leak out of my eyeballs :D

Myself, besides being a musician, I am also a visual artist. As a guitar player, I am sort of tired of listening to other guitar players. Unless they are doing something really, really different, or supremely well, they bore the socks off me. On the visual art side, I sell some of my work - which is sort of the intention (to find an audience and communicate) - but the majority of my art winds up on my own walls (or in the garage, or shed, or stuck in a corner, or under the bed). I produce a whole lot more than I can ever use. I am sure Picasso was the same way - even if by the end, he could reputedly pay an expensive restaurant bill by simply scribbling a sketch on a napkin and signing it. Creative people make 10x more stuff as experiments and mistakes that no one ever sees but they themselves. I don't go to a lot of gallery openings either, unless they are for friends' work.

A good friend of mine from Italy was visiting me years ago. We went to my go-to liquor store to buy some supplies and spent some time talking with the owner of the store. He was an older gentleman with so much knowledge about alcohol. We asked him what his favorite choice would be for a certain type and he said “you know, it’s probably funny but I don’t drink.” We said no way, did you ever? And he said “never tried it. I know that sounds funny being that I own a liquor store.” My Italian friend said “we have a saying in Italy. The cobbler always has broken shoes”
We all had a big laugh.

In 2017 I was the top contributor for crypto related subjects on Quora, getting over 5mm views in a year. I wrote over 1,500 articles during the two years I wrote there.

I can count on 1 hand how many Quora answers I’ve read.

Reminded me of story of the violinist Perlman when he moved to NY, his teacher decided his input had to be reinforced by listening to music and visiting art histories.

We share similar experiences and yes I love what I do. Age and experience can make you smile with wisdom :)

again well said!

Nice examples! However, in certain cases I look for the opposite - a restaurant where the owner is partaking meals, A Big Yesss!!!

An investment fund house where the CIO has a bulk of investments in his own fund - that’s skin in the game!!

Thank you for this! It feels so good to read this. My freelance business is built on publishing illustrations on social media, but I've always felt it was hypocritical that I create content for platforms that I want to spend less time on.

To buttress your point, actors don't like watching their movies.

Oddly, I've been tussling with this in my own small way. One reason (there are a couple others) I have stopped buying produce from a local, family-owned vendor because I suspect they don't eat vegetables or their own vegetables. They don't take the care with the produce they sell - e.g. they allow their herbs and lettuces to dry out or display older lettuces that have had so many of their layers removed they could be half their original size. In a way, it feels like they don't respect their customers. Times are tough for smaller vendors, I know, but I still believe they would act differently if they were eating what they sold.

I would guess on these are more on the tail end of distribution curve.

Like doctors who won't take their own advice to patients.

Or a marriage therapist going through their own divorce.

Or someone happy while doing something they don't want to do.

I remember seeing an interview with Seth Godin talking about the Vodka he produces and the fact he doesn't drink alcohol. That was my first introduction to this concept.

It's a solid one.

I remember running some training for an optician's staff who were failing to upsell their designer brands. "You are not your audience", I would say. "Just because YOU wouldn't buy them, doesn't mean no-one will."

In fact, I told them about a guy I'd worked with who spent £8k on the catering for his 50th birthday, then rented a plane and flew all his family and friends out to Italy for two week's holiday. Do you think HE has the money for the designer frames? Yes? Well he lives less than half a mile from your store!

In response to Alpinweis:

You could always _listen_ to the people who _do_ use it!

I have spent over 40 years building homes from the basic three bedder to multi-million dollar ones. I watched people over-commit to their homes, and then they spent the next ten years working to pay the mortgage. They never got to enjoy their home, which caused more stress than enjoyment. I currently don't own a home, and I enjoy the freedom that comes with less.

You can add me to the list... a woman who works in a chocolate factory and doesn't enjoy chocolate.

I own a personal training studio I think what I do, although necessary to some in very specific circumstances, is completely unnecessary. The last place you'd ever find me is in a gym.

I worked in TV news for two decades, yet I’ve never owned a TV. Further, I live in London, a city filled with brutalist architecture. Interestingly, most of the architects behind those “streets in the sky” tower blocks chose to live in elegant Georgian or Victorian homes.

Anything that gets us off the self-doubting hook is good stuff. We make up such crazy shit!

Our purpose in life is not being useful, although it is a prerequisite. It is to improve our understanding of the world.

It is a miracle that the universe can be understood, and we are unique in that sense.

In a sense, we are created by the universe to understand itself. It would be such a waste if we don't make the most of it.

We need to quiet the noise in order to rest the mind so that we can create. The irony is constant consumption turns our ideas into fast food and the emotional nutrition wanes. Music being predicated on emotion, channelling and space. The noise and the quiet are necessary for our souls and our creativity. Turn the radio off after the gig and reflect upon the show and the people who graced your audience.

Amen Derek,
Same, I sing and make music and coach music all day every day and I barely ever listen to music and have only gone to one real “concert” that wasn’t work related in my life (pentatonix, a student of mine had an extra ticket and really wanted me to go, haha). I’ve said it for years. Liking to make music is not the same thing as liking to consume music. Liking to play basketball isn’t the same thing as liking to watch basketball. Glad you figured it out, a lot of guys never do and it really eats at you as an artist until you accept it as normal.

As a drummer, I enjoyed watching and listening to other drummers such as Tony Williams, Barry Elmes and Rick Lazar play in small clubs and drummers such as Ron Tutt & Steve Gadd in larger venues.

However, after playing a gig, I found it hard to listen to music for at least a day because of listening fatigue & exposure to loud sound.

When I worked at a grain elevator in my late teens, I couldn't eat cereal because the sweet smell of the cereal grains made my stomach turn and reminded me of working at the elevator.

I think the aversion to consuming things we create or work at is partly due to overexposure to tasks & performances.

Interesting! Reminds of when I was a swim instructor and teaching swimming was much different than actually swimming but doing both did probably make me better at both.

The salt water line was really clever. Thank you for sharing this one
What we have to give to the world may be quite different from what we need from it.

A couple thoughts on what might be at play here - different factors for different examples?

vegetarian cattle farmer - when we see how the sausage is made, we don't necessarily enjoy eating it anymore (could indicate not-awesome business practice if you won't consume your own product; or career inertia - keep doing what you know even if you don't love it or need it)

masseuse that doesn’t enjoy receiving massage - this seems the closest parallel to musician who doesn't love listening to music - the process of creating can be an art that is very different from consuming that thing - so giving vs. receiving are different experiences; meet different needs.

elevator builder that lives in a single-story house - after you know what you can charge for something, sometimes it's hard to do it for yourself for "free" and also to justify paying anyone else to do it. Not necessarily rational but something I've noticed. Also knowing the maintenance/upkeep/ possible headaches with whatever you install down the road and just not wanting to deal with it at home.

heart surgeon that has never needed heart surgery - deeper knowledge of how to resolve an issue can also mean an understanding of how to prevent it. Anything we're skilled at, we can theoretically prevent from happening in our own lives by seeing the early warning signs a layperson might miss.

Thanks as always for the good food for thought - interesting topic, I like the idea that there is nothing "wrong" if we don't consume what we produce. A nice benefit of a specialized society.

More and more as a musician i've come to the same point although there are
certain musicians that inspire me. We saw a Rhiannon Giddens concert the other
night which is one of the best I've attended. I also enjoy the Atlanta Symphony.
That I can't reproduce for myself. Some concerts let you know why you are in
the music field to begin with.

I really like this post because I struggle with not always having "skin the in game". My only critique is that I drink salt water every day!! It helps with frequent urination; LMNT is my favorite brand.

This post filled me with relief. I make what is technically a true crime podcast, though I’m self-conscious of that genre. (I don’t like violence or crime per se, but I’m interested in human behavior at its extremes.) I don’t listen to true crime podcasts. I’ve always thought: There’s something wrong with this equation. I’m being dishonest. Your post made me think it’s okay.

I create YouTube tutorials and I myself find self-directed learning from YouTube very difficult. Which is partly why I do what I do- trying to do it differently than most. But a bit ironic.

Interesting ideas. This will help people understand the world better.

Although not exactly the same thing, this reminded me of the following. At my previous job, they used to say: "you do not need to love what you do, you need to love WHY you do it".

Purpose is important. Alignment with our wants and needs is too.

There is an Indian saying, "हलवाई अपनी मिठाई कभी नहीं खाता"
It means that "The confectioner never eats his sweets."

I am the owner of a beach bar restaurant that lots of
Nights with louder music .
Every time I go out I choose very quiet place away from noice

We don't need to do anything, but what's the point of making music if you don't like to listen to it, your own I mean? This is a genuine question, not a rhetorical one.

I'm a music entrepreneur and have been a music manager for years, creating the best shows for the artists I serve. I love working behind the scenes and creating something magical. On the night of a show or festival, my default would be staying home. I always found this strange and a bit scary, so thanks, Derek, for your insight. It sets people free!

As a filmmaker I seem to more enjoy watching different genres to what I create. I think this is due to over analysis of similar creative outputs, and there may be unnecessary comparison, but my relationship as the audience has changed as I’ve developed my craft.

My guilt over not watching as much as making has ebbed over time.

Well, if it adds to the list, I'm a professional video game developer who plays way too little video game. In all honesty, I prefer making it than playing in _in general_.

Some actors don't watch their own movies.

I, in fact, do drink salt water as an athlete 😂😂😂😂

This type of thinking is what got me interested in user-centered design. I was the Exhibitions Director at a Contemporary Art Museum but I didn't particularly like going to museums. It got me interested in why people DO go to museums (ours in particular), what value they get. It changed my career.
Thanks for sharing!

I sold new cars but have always purchased used.

Interesting thought thank you. Perhaps people may not use what they make due to over exposure leading to saturation. It may also be the case that once you gain greater insight into something the appeal is lost due to the lack of mystery. Of course the opposite can also be true that once you gain the understanding you know it's no longer for you. Thank you as always for the points for contemplation

Or like the carpenter who never finishes his abode.....!

I've struggled with this for a while: the software startup I work at helps people buy franchises, but neither of us own a franchise. This is spot on!

I am a pharmacist and don’t like to take medication
My husband owns a restaurant and hates eating out

As ever thought provoking, thank you.

I don't think it matters. I have a daughter who is a social worker, and (to my knowledge) has never been abused, nor abused substances or other people. In her case, I'd argue you're correct, you don't need to experience what you create.

Can you be a great author without reading other work? Maybe. Nothing is published without being edited, so there are checks and balances there. But I'd argue that to reach people we need empathy (to create the right things) and skill (to create things right). You don't _have to_ consume the things you create, but you may want to, and that's ok too.

I agree, I like making music more than listening to it and I felt bad about it until I met other musicians who feel the same.
For me I think it's primarily because I can't stop myself from listening with a critical ear. From honing my ear to hearing when something I made was off, a note, a word, phrasing, feeling- I can't let go and enjoy without the work mind going.

I drink salt water with redmond real salt. If you haven´t read Andre Aghassi´s memoir Open then you should because it is fantastic. His trainer was giving him salt water. I lot of health gurus recommend it. I do it for some time periods and then go back to cocunut water or regular.

Thank you for this blog post! This is the first time I’ve read someone phrase it this way. Usually, you often hear the exact opposite – that you should create what you enjoy consuming.
For a long time, I unconsciously accepted this without question and sometimes felt frustrated that I don’t consume the kind of content I create. It’s refreshing to look at it from the other perspective and to challenge this common advice.

I sell products to car dealerships literally dealing with 1000s of them each year, but the last few cars I’ve purchased have all been from private sellers as I just can’t stand to deal with a car dealership.

Great point to ponder! And great talking point. Love the examples, Derek.

I really like Bard Artist's comment. Is it the journey or the destination? Normally it's the destination for me, but I need to make it more about the journey. Thanks for that!

And thank you to Michael Miller IV for the tip on Real Salt. I just placed an order!

Derek, I love the salt analogy.

Interesting article! We cruise the borderline of what we focus. Why are we there ending up at the twisted side of track? Because this very twist makes it all rolling and more exciting (being the exception to our own rule like we can get away with it in glaring silence). It's the tease -- makes stories epic. I personally know a psychologist who can't apply any of her expertise to her delinquent kid, and lately she gets diagnosed of schizo.

As a professional musician, I used to struggle with this thought throughout the years: I don't consume as much music as a lot of my friends do. I don't go to concerts as much as some friends do. And I definitely don't know as much about artists, musical movements and genres like a lot of my non music friends do.

I realized that I really enjoy moments of silence. Music is my output. I have to create it but I also need a break from it. And when I'm on a break I don't liste to that much music.

"heart surgeon that has never needed heart surgery"

Who would he trust? : ))))))

I have built some tall towers, but my office to build or in occupying them is almost always at ground level or below ground level. But I have had an office on 19, of a 24+3 tower and have lived at 67th - the top floor of a 67+4 tower...

Same here! As a singer-songwriter, I always found it odd that I rarely turn on music for my own enjoyment. I love certain songs and resonate deeply when I hear them, but as a rule, I either listen to silence, talk, or stand-up comics!

Looking forward to more of these.

In the first phase of my adult life I played in a lot bands. But where's the later part of that musical existence I stopped listening to other people's music when I started writing my own. I could go months without hearing the radio or even listening to my own albums. I totally can see where somebody would do that.

The last 25 years I've been a radio DJ, even though I rarely listen to the radio for anything but news. I oddly don't find too many radio shows very interesting. A terrible thing to say when I'm in community radio like that, but I'm much more enjoy making a radio show than I do listening.

it's interesting.It just tells me a lesson there that I don't need to love what I am doing,career and passion can be not the same thing.I like this idea,we don't need to love what we do,we can good at what we do ,and we have something we really like to do and even not good at,that's ok.cool.

Once again a perspective I needed to hear.

This is really interesting, thanks for sharing this.

One of my main beliefs right now is "eat your own dogfood", it's nice to see someone say this doesn't always have to be the case ^_^